Rules/ Guidelines, for Site Discussion/Sub-forums.

[Chanilove]

I agree, although I want to debunk that 'donor was irresponsible' thing a little, because while it's true - sometimes, not thoroughly checking a requester's background is because as a donor, you trust that whoever's PM'ing you for an egg via a program has already been vetted and cleared. So there isn't much question about bumping up the request to priority, or giving away a more valuable egg.

 

And if there are multiple requests coming in, actively hunting down scrolls, posts, requests, etc. can take time, which is pretty much the reason lists are made public. Public name-and-shame lists on projects are also... it's like, they're not only information lists rated by severity(there are graylists and secondary lists too), they're also a form of punishment, and a punishment isn't going to have any effect if it's never meted out.

Maybe you should only be allowed to announce that a user is blacklisted. We usually mention blacklistings in our update posts at the BSA Gifters. This would give the donors notice without creating a permanent public blacklist, as gifting threads tend to be cleaned out regularly (and the update post would be deleted eventually).

Edited August 29, 2012 by Chanilove

[Hawkster]

Posting blacklists in signatures and profiles should definitely not be allowed. This is a personal issue between those parties and as such should be kept personal and private. If they want to have blacklist, fine, but it must be kept private and/or only strictly between those parties involved.

 

Thread projects posting blacklists, I do not have problem with at all for couple of reasons.

 

1) It is a public project, not personal.

Just because someone is on blacklist in one project does not exempt them from participating in another project, nor does it possibly even affect a personals decision to include / exclude someone either on that project they are blacklisted on. A donor can still gift or donate to a blacklisted scroll if they still want too regardless of if they are included on project blacklist. It is the donors choice after all whether to follow suggested blacklist or not. It would just be done outside of that thread project. As it should be.

 

2) Blacklist on thread project is done because rules were not followed or they do not qualify for that particular project. For example a silver award player does not qualify for newbie projects. It is not necessary to include blacklist for this issue as that can be easily ascertained. However, ascertaining not following thread project rules normally is not so easy to tell without a posted blacklist. Mods, helpers of thread can have posted blacklist elsewhere, but the general public will not have access to that and since this is public thread, the public needs access to it.

 

Yes as has been mentioned, if they must be put on an eligible list prior, then blacklist may not be as necessary. Not all thread projects will have this though. Nor do I still find any issue with project thread still having blacklist even if they have an eligilbe list. It is just that much easier for donors to ascertain as well as the one blacklisted to see reason why as a reminder.

 

3) Respect must be earned.

On public project, if someone can not follow the rules of that particular project, there must be some form of consequence for not abiding by the rules. Otherwise why have rules to begin with? Project threads must have rules to distinguish it from other thread projects and they also need some form of consequence if those rules are not followed. If someone can not follow the stated rules, they did not earn respect to participate for that project.

 

4) While mods can have private blacklist, this would not help the public donors as the mods can not update 24/7. A donor can check and see a submitted form and with out knowing if an individual has broken project rules prior, go ahead and donate to that individual before a mod comes in to update that thread if there is no posted blacklist for that thread project.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Hawkster

[rubyshoes]

Pulling back to the first page so more members have a chance to see this.

[_Z_]

Posting blacklists in signatures and profiles should definitely not be allowed. This is a personal issue between those parties and as such should be kept personal and private. If they want to have blacklist, fine, but it must be kept private and/or only strictly between those parties involved.

 

Thread projects posting blacklists, I do not have problem with at all for couple of reasons.

 

1) It is a public project, not personal.

Just because someone is on blacklist in one project does not exempt them from participating in another project, nor does it possibly even affect a personals decision to include / exclude someone either on that project they are blacklisted on. A donor can still gift or donate to a blacklisted scroll if they still want too regardless of if they are included on project blacklist. It is the donors choice after all whether to follow suggested blacklist or not. It would just be done outside of that thread project. As it should be.

 

2) Blacklist on thread project is done because rules were not followed or they do not qualify for that particular project. For example a silver award player does not qualify for newbie projects. It is not necessary to include blacklist for this issue as that can be easily ascertained. However, ascertaining not following thread project rules normally is not so easy to tell without a posted blacklist. Mods, helpers of thread can have posted blacklist elsewhere, but the general public will not have access to that and since this is public thread, the public needs access to it.

 

Yes as has been mentioned, if they must be put on an eligible list prior, then blacklist may not be as necessary. Not all thread projects will have this though. Nor do I still find any issue with project thread still having blacklist even if they have an eligilbe list. It is just that much easier for donors to ascertain as well as the one blacklisted to see reason why as a reminder.

 

3) Respect must be earned.

On public project, if someone can not follow the rules of that particular project, there must be some form of consequence for not abiding by the rules. Otherwise why have rules to begin with? Project threads must have rules to distinguish it from other thread projects and they also need some form of consequence if those rules are not followed. If someone can not follow the stated rules, they did not earn respect to participate for that project.

 

4) While mods can have private blacklist, this would not help the public donors as the mods can not update 24/7. A donor can check and see a submitted form and with out knowing if an individual has broken project rules prior, go ahead and donate to that individual before a mod comes in to update that thread if there is no posted blacklist for that thread project.

Well written Hawkster, we will take your post under consideration.

[Isuzu]

I agree with the majority saying that Project Black lists should be allowed. People in projects usually get blacklisted because they broke several rules that are there for a reason.

Besides seeing as not all projects have giftee lists,blacklists are useful if you want to know your egg at least has a chance of getting a good home.

[_Z_]

Perhaps project blacklists will continue to be allowed (We are still discussing). We have allowed them for several years, as long as the blacklisted member is not called out on the forum. (which has not happened lately.) I am more concerned with signatures and profiles, these are unacceptable, members that have not removed them will now receive a warn. Please edit any blacklists now.

[autumnraynefyr]

I understand that this can affect the thread/project blacklists and such.. I also understand that personal blacklists can be considered malicious attacks on players. The thread/projects blacklists are there because each one has its own set of rules. Repeatedly breaking said rules means that you weren't following said rules to begin with and many of projects have limited numbers of people who donate their time and efforts into these projects.. As well as limited numbers of slots for whatever the project is about, The New BSA Gifters, for example has lists with a limited number of slots and if people are going to sit there and break all of the rules that were set forth in the threads than they shouldn't be there.. Many of the threads/projects I have seen with blacklists, people are it because they broke the thread rules, not malicious attacks on the players themselves, reprimand for repeatedly breaking rules (or breaking major rules) are not, in my opinion, malicious attacks. I have also seen that many of the thread blacklists usually give the person a chance to clear up whatever issue got them there in the first place.. <,<

[rubyshoes]

Pulling back to the first page to see if there are anymore comments.

[Moranna]

I agree with the others about project blacklists. If the projects must have rules, then there must be consequences to breaking the rules. Otherwise, why have the rules at all? Then we'd have a FFA, and isn't that why the project threads were begun in the first place?

[Alse15]

I agree with the fact that projects should be able to have blacklists. It helps people who are looking to gift their eggs to know who not to gift to, especially when that person has broken several of the project's rules.

 

Also, I am happy to see that blacklists are off profiles. I never added one to mine, since it always just seemed a little underhanded to try and darken someone's name who you've had a conflict with. I have members I personally do not want to trade with for reasons that are my own, but that doesn't mean another person wont have a great experiance trading with them.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Alse15

[rayden54]

Regarding personal blacklists: "Blacklist: Name" tells nothing more than that the two people had a disagreement. There's nothing slanderous about it. If you want more information, you can talk to both sides before making a decision.

 

I do see a problem with blacklisting on gifting threads. There's someone on the Newbie Gifting Project Thread's blacklist for reasons I disagree with. I see no problem with making a note of what he did "wrong," but I don't agree with blacklisting him. I think deciding whether someone is deserving of a gift should ultimately be up to the discretion of the gifter.

 

I also believe that in the case of conflicts between the gifters rules and the thread rules, the gifters rules should take precedence. For example, if I tell a giftee that they can trade, re-gift, bite, kill, or release an egg then that should take priority over the threads rules banning those actions.

Edited September 3, 2012 by rayden54

[blackdragon71]

Regarding personal blacklists: "Blacklist: Name" tells nothing more than that the two people had a disagreement. There's nothing slanderous about it. If you want more information, you can talk to both sides before making a decision.

 

I do see a problem with blacklisting on gifting threads. There's someone on the Newbie Gifting Project Thread's blacklist for reasons I disagree with. I see no problem with making a note of what he did "wrong," but I don't agree with blacklisting him. I think deciding whether someone is deserving of a gift should ultimately be up to the discretion of the gifter.

 

I also believe that in the case of conflicts between the gifters rules and the thread rules, the gifters rules should take precedence. For example, if I tell a giftee that they can trade, re-gift, bite, kill, or release an egg then that should take priority over the threads rules banning those actions.

Then that would be where a person doesn't gift in a thread situation, they would do it on their own, via PM or email. That way, if the person doesn't care for the rules of the gift thread, then they don't have to abide by them either the gifter or the giftee. But if one is going to take advantage of someone else's kindness and generosity, then those who set up a system whereby that transfer takes place are obligated to protect both parties, thus, the necessity for rules and consequences for blatantly violating the rules and the trust of those who go out of their way to do a nice thing for others publicly. I'd hate to see the gift threads go away simply because some people can't play nicely.

Edited September 3, 2012 by blackdragon71

[Belisar]

I have no objections regarding the recently added rule, that Blacklists are banned from Signatures and Profiles.

 

However I'd hate to see, if blacklists would be banned from Project Threads. The reasons therefor have been all explained so nicely already, that I don't want to repeat them again. To add maybe, only people who are concerned with the project are likely to see those blacklists anyways, so the names don't jump at you everywhere on the forums. So maybe you are blacklisted in one project for whatever, you still can be threadmod in another. Those lists do not really affect your "life" here on the forums.

 

I am more interested in the still to be discussed subject of Links to blacklists (or links to an external site, like google docs, and there you can find after some clicking around among other things a blacklist). As I do keep one on mine although I have the names blackened out (even before this announcement btw). ^.~

[rayden54]

Then that would be where a person doesn't gift in a thread situation, they would do it on their own, via PM or email. That way, if the person doesn't care for the rules of the gift thread, then they don't have to abide by them either the gifter or the giftee. But if one is going to take advantage of someone else's kindness and generosity, then those who set up a system whereby that transfer takes place are obligated to protect both parties, thus, the necessity for rules and consequences for blatantly violating the rules and the trust of those who go out of their way to do a nice thing for others publicly. I'd hate to see the gift threads go away simply because some people can't play nicely.

The threads are the best way to find people who want specific eggs.

 

Some of the rules are fine; what can be requested and how, for example. Other's I think, go to far. But, that's outside the scope of this thread. I will say, that since we aren't allowed to create more than one topic with the same scope and purpose (ie there's only one Newbie gifting thread), the rules should be aimed only at keeping order and not enforcing the moderators ideals.

 

As I said, whether someone is "taking advantage of someone else's kindness and generosity" should be up to the individual's discretion. And right now it seems the system errs very severely on the side of "protecting" the giftees at the expense of the people making the requests. What protection, if any, is there for the requesters?

[Hawkster]

I do see a problem with blacklisting on gifting threads. There's someone on the Newbie Gifting Project Thread's blacklist for reasons I disagree with. I see no problem with making a note of what he did "wrong," but I don't agree with blacklisting him.

Bahh .. I can easily get off topic as there are lot of things I disagree with, however I will try to stay on topic as much as possible.

 

First I am at a loss as to how you think its fine to allow blacklists in your personal signature, allowing someone to call out another individual, disrespecting and showing negativeness in the forums. One that will show up every time that person posts anywhere. Yet you do not think this should be allowed in just one thread and will only be seen by those that only look in that thread.

 

The example you brought up is gifting threads. So to follow your example, if a gifting thread makes note of it but does not have public blacklist, the whole point of blacklist on gifting thread is to try and protect both parties. The giftee and giftors. To try and make sure that the generous giftors eggs or hatchies will be taken care of and cherished by the giftee. Not given away or killed or traded etc. The gifting threads for the most part is to try and give specific dragons to ones who do not have or do not have very many of those types of dragons .. NOT to be used for other purposes. So the aim of a blacklist is that if they can not follow simple rules of that gifting thread, than they are more likely not to follow and appreciate the gifts they are given OR they do not qualify for that gifting thread to begin with. If those gifting threads were just to make a note somewhere but not have blacklist, then how are the donors / giftors to know who is even eligible to be participant of that gifting thread or that there gift is more likely to be appreciated?

 

I think deciding whether someone is deserving of a gift should ultimately be up to the discretion of the gifter.

I also believe that in the case of conflicts between the gifters rules and the thread rules, the gifters rules should take precedence.

Second as I have already stated in my prior post here. The giftor DOES already have the ultimate decision whether to go ahead and gift or not, even if they are on blacklist in that gifting thread. It just will be done outside of that thread is all.

 

I would like to discuss your given example more but that would be going too off topic to discuss here.

 

Some of the rules are fine; what can be requested and how, for example. Other's I think, go to far.

Like you said this is kinda going off topic, but I will say I think the point of the rules is to try and protect both parties so this might be why rules go further.

 

since we aren't allowed to create more than one topic with the same scope and purpose (ie there's only one Newbie gifting thread)

Although you were more mentioning regarding this to thread rules, I actually do find that this MIGHT be actually one valid reason for not allowing blacklists. As you said since there can only be one topic thread concerning specific purpose. Who is to say that there cant be other ways or rules to go about doing this. With blacklists, this might disclude a select few that would not have been discluded if they were part of another similiar project thread with different rules. I doubt this will be very many as just dont see that many having extremely different rules that would change giftors in that many cases and/or like I said the final end decision is up to the giftor and they can still gift if they look into the whole situation. But if the giftor does not look into the whole thing, I can see where on a few rare occasions that a blacklist might have deterred this being done.

 

Overall though, I think the whole point of not having blacklists is to not be disrespectful and to keep the negativeness down as much as possible. I have been to forums that are highly negative to the point you dont even want to visit those forums. I dont see where having blacklists inside specific project threads has added much of negative note overall to this forum board.