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Vegetarianism/ Veganism

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The world going vegan would not stop us needing to grow crops - indeed we would need to grow *more*, and of a greater variety requiring more attention.

 

@Tikindi: I don't think we would have to grow more crops, because a major part of crops go into animal fodder. So lets just grow food for humans instead of food for animals and there wouldn't be a problem.

Sorry, I don't have a link right now, but I think Jonathan Safran Foer has it somewhere in Eating Animals.

 

also wonder wether or not you have given any thought to what would happen to all these animals if the world were to turn vegan over night (or even in a short space of time)? Farmers are not going to pay to keep things that are unprofitable. The result would be mass slaughter of cattle, pigs, sheep... any animal currently reared for use in the food industry. Or clothing industry, for that matter. The world going vegan would not result in better treatment of these animals - it would result in their extinction. I often wonder how much thought vegan campaigners have given to that.

 

I rather doubt that the whole world would go vegan in one day. If gradually more people will go vegan over time, there will be less need to breed animals over time. There certainly wont be a large number of animals that have to be dealt with from one day to another. And becoming extinct?

Cows, pigs, chickens becoming extinct? Anyone could keep those animals just for fun or to keep them in existence. The problem with farm animals becoming extinct are old races that were adapted to a special environment, that were far more hardy and better able to survive than modern farm factory animals that partly aren't even capable of moving normally.

 

 

 

@ pudding: Just to remind You.. YOU were the one who started comparing humans and animals. Basically You said factory farming is ok because nature is cruel and that was that. So whats wrong with me comparing humans/animals too?

As to that hypocrisy vs morality.. whats that supposed to mean? Everyone who tries to be moral is a hypocrite or what do You mean by that? Seems to me thats just coming back to the everpresents meat eaters pseudoargument: "But if You want to save all animals You have to to that and that and that too....."

So You think its better to do nothing at all than starting with something? Or what did You mean by that??

Give me a vegan diet that has the nutrients I need and whatever? Fine, I'll give it a go.

Absolutely no problem there...but I doubt You will really try, because You wouldn't accept that it contained enough nutrients

 

But before you try telling me about the feelings of the animals, lemme just point you towards the slums and the people living in other countries who have yet to eat today at all. Why can't we make their lives a little plushier instead of the cow's? I mean, this moral crusade everyone seems on should probably be directed at your own species first. Unless you feel more connections to a cow or a pig than you do another human.

 

Going vegan would help those people because in general more food would be available and there would be less pollution. BUt its just the same old "argument".. there are more important problems, you should help people first, people are more important...

Most of all going vegan helps people.

What do You think about countries that have serious starvation problems and are still growing crops for export.. to feed animals? You really think thats ok?

 

And no, I don't preach nor do I want too, but arguments like Yours pudding are simply not really arguments. Trying to put blame on vegans instead of taking their arguments seriously because they should in your opionion do other things, more things is no kind of discussion style.

 

And well..I'll probably be off. NO, I am not out of arguments but i'm getting upset and thats something I don't like, bad for my psyche...

 

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Vegans and vegetarians are usually very unhealthy because they don't get the nutrients they need. My Mediterranean heritage has given me anemia. To be completely honest, no. I would not go vegan because I need to eat meat. Nearly all iron supplement vitamins I have eaten have given me a negative reaction (usually vomiting) and I passed out when I skipped eating meat. I need meat in my diet to remain healthy. Would I die without it? Maybe, I don't know if my anemia would be that serious. But I don't want to find out.

 

I'm sorry but who is going to keep a cow in their house? Adults have enough trouble dealing with children, they don't need cows as well. And the cow isn't going to make them any money, it's just going to take it. Farm animals have become reliant on humans to live. If we go vegan, they all will perish because we won't need them any more.

 

Morality is both a byproduct of evolution and also varies from person to person. Trying to preach your morals onto someone else is like trying to convert people to your religion. Sometimes, they just don't want to because they don't agree with you and their ideals are different. The very 'good' that you are trying to do can come off as 'bad' because you are being pushy in an area where there is not one answer. There is no good and evil in the universe. It's a fictional ideal. Let me ask you a few questions that I would like for people to answer:

Is farm factory bad?

Can it be improved?

Why should people stop eating meat?

(If applicable) Why did you stop eating meat?

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I'm a vegan because of the factory farm industry...I'm confused about why everyone is so indifferent to it, even when they're aware of it.

Because steak.

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Because steak.

Don't forget bacon. Personally, I like candied bacon or bacon with maple syrup. Has anyone ever had that before?

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I do believe it's entirely possible to be healthy and vegetarian. And I have to disagree with both of you. Pudding, you seem like you're trying to say there's nothing wrong with factory farms when there clearly is. I would agree that, for now, there isn't a better alternative for many people, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't change. And Severus, you honestly sound like you're demonizing anyone who has different beliefs or morals than you. As if anyone who doesn't believe exactly the same things as you is entirely wrong and should be treated like those animals. Pudding was right in stating that we should worry about people in bad lives before we worry about animals in bad lives

 

Pudding, to answer your questions:

Yes, but I don't really see any better option right now that wouldn't starve people

At some point, but for now it's hard to do without starving people

Erm, they shouldn't? Meat is a natural part of the human diet and if everyone stopped eating meat it would weaken us as a whole

Gonna take that last one as why I would, rather than why I did; as previously mentioned, I just find over-processed intestine to be absolutely disgusting

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But whats the difference between the animals You say You love and those You eat? Pigs are way more intelligent than dogs or cats, yet they are still eaten.

Simple: Meat is less efficient than plants in terms of water usage, growing space, etc.; but carnivores like cats and dogs are even LESS efficient as food sources because they have to be fed other animals. I don't eat animals that also eat meat. Though I'm not very fond of nomming pigs and cows in the first place, I prefer eating chickens, quail, and ducks.

 

I would still like the animals I eat to be treated compassionately until they're killed for eating, of course. Just because I intend to roast them and eat them doesn't mean they should suffer while they can still feel.

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Simple: Meat is less efficient than plants in terms of water usage, growing space, etc.; but carnivores like cats and dogs are even LESS efficient as food sources because they have to be fed other animals. I don't eat animals that also eat meat. Though I'm not very fond of nomming pigs and cows in the first place, I prefer eating chickens, quail, and ducks.

 

I would still like the animals I eat to be treated compassionately until they're killed for eating, of course. Just because I intend to roast them and eat them doesn't mean they should suffer while they can still feel.

Also, cats at least supposedly taste horrible. And I have never gotten the intelligence argument. Why is it so horrible to eat something that is intelligent? To me it is more an aspect of bonding and ease of keep. A cat or dog can live happily in the average home or backyard(for dogs), but something like a pig would require special housing that many might not be able to provide, can you imagine a pig in an apartment? You can keep a cat or a dog in an apartment though.

 

It is also a matter of culture, ever notice how animals that are not eaten often served a purpose when they were alive? Cats kept down rodents in grain storage and in homes, dogs served as guardians an protectors or numerous other tasks, horses could pull a plow or cart, etc. Things like pigs and chickens though really had no purpose other than to provide for the farmer.

 

We keep a few chickens, they are pretty much pets now, but it doesn't bother me to eat fried chicken and we haven't had to buy eggs in quite a long time. They are kept well, and provide just enough eggs for our family.

 

And then here is another aspect of meat eating: Hunting. We hunt for food, it means that we buy less meat from the supermarket and the animal had as good a life as possible.

Edited by Nectaris

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I do believe it's entirely possible to be healthy and vegetarian. And I have to disagree with both of you. Pudding, you seem like you're trying to say there's nothing wrong with factory farms when there clearly is. I would agree that, for now, there isn't a better alternative for many people, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't change. And Severus, you honestly sound like you're demonizing anyone who has different beliefs or morals than you. As if anyone who doesn't believe exactly the same things as you is entirely wrong and should be treated like those animals. Pudding was right in stating that we should worry about people in bad lives before we worry about animals in bad lives

 

Pudding, to answer your questions:

Yes, but I don't really see any better option right now that wouldn't starve people

At some point, but for now it's hard to do without starving people

Erm, they shouldn't? Meat is a natural part of the human diet and if everyone stopped eating meat it would weaken us as a whole

Gonna take that last one as why I would, rather than why I did; as previously mentioned, I just find over-processed intestine to be absolutely disgusting

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it, I'm just saying that after being exposed to it, I'm not going to stop eating meat. I think we should encourage it to change instead of going after people who like to eat meat. I've watched the videos, I've seen the slaughter. I can see where there can be improvements to the system to give the animals better lives before they are killed. But improving the system is one thing. Hounding people is another and I'm trying to show that although it can be improved, factory farms aren't some big bad monster we need to kill.

 

I'll wait for a few more people to answer the questions before I address them. I want to see how the answers vary.

 

Also, carnivores have a different taste than herbivores. Carnivores usually taste bitter compared to herbivores (at least in mammals)

Edited by pudding

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So You think its hypocrisy to try and reduce suffering, helping to ensure everyone has food by going vegan? Just because "nature is cruel"?

Hm..oh well. So I am pretty sure You have no problem with the killing of children or murder per se because, well, animals kill their young sometimes and animals kill each other?

Honestly, thats not really an argument ;-). With that You could justify about anything.

It is natural for humans and animals (which we are btw) to eat meat. I don't see how condemning them, comparing it to murder, or saying it's hypocrisy to enjoy being the natural omnivore we all are is a valid argument.

 

Want to be a vegetarian that's fine. Go ahead and do so.

 

Looking down on another just because they wish to eat meat and enjoy doing so is wrong. This is what puts vegetarians/vegans in a horrible spot light. It is why I do not visit this thread often either.

 

I do not appreciate being compared to a murderer or anything just because I happen to enjoy eating meat while another does not and prefers to eat salads. By all means like I said keep being a vegetarian but it gives no one a right to say something like this at all.

 

I have pets. Dogs and cats. I still enjoy eating meat. It is not hypocritical to be a pet owner or like animals and eat others at the same time.

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It is natural for humans and animals (which we are btw) to eat meat. [...]

 

Looking down on another just because they wish to eat meat and enjoy doing so is wrong. This is what puts vegetarians/vegans in a horrible spot light. It is why I do not visit this thread often either.

It's a choice...nothing more or less.

 

Meat or no meat..that is the question. My answer is no meat. It makes me sick (really), same to milk etc...and I can't kill what i love...

 

Btw...@pudding...there are no children in our home..plenty of room for a cow....

 

(and sorry for my bad english..Severus has to teach me again, i think *sigh*)

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It's a choice...nothing more or less.

 

Meat or no meat..that is the question. My answer is no meat. It makes me sick (really), same to milk etc...and I can't kill what i love...

 

Btw...@pudding...there are no children in our home..plenty of room for a cow....

 

(and sorry for my bad english..Severus has to teach me again, i think *sigh*)

It is a choice yes. That is exactly all it is. What upsets me the most out of this is how others can look down on each other and say the horrible things they do. Just because one prefers to eat meat or a salad over the other does not mean they need to be looked at differently.

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It's a choice...nothing more or less.

 

Meat or no meat..that is the question. My answer is no meat. It makes me sick (really),  same to milk etc...and I can't kill what i love...

 

Btw...@pudding...there are no children in our home..plenty of room for a cow....

 

(and sorry for my bad english..Severus has to teach me again, i think *sigh*)

What about the people in Iceland where vegetables don't grow as well? They have a diet almost entirely consisting of fish and meat. Not much of a choice for them.

 

If it makes you sick, don't eat it! But don't attack others for eating meat. If you want a cow, go ahead and take a cow. But most families in America can't afford a cow and don't have space for a cow.

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If someone goes vegetarian because factory farming is awful, I also hope that you buy only free-range eggs/dairy, because egg/dairy industry isn't a kind one either, because otherwise you're (general "you") a hypocrite.

 

 

I'm not a vegetarian, don't plan to become one anytime soon (I, on the other hand, feel weird if I haven't had meat for several days), can't afford eating free-range, hence I don't even try to pretend being ethical.

However, once lab-grown meat gets more developed - the taste-tested version from 2013 only contains muslce cells and no fat or blood vessels yet - and commercially viable (and so far it seems that it'll be a greener, due to lack methane from livestock farts and less space needed for meat-growing facilities vs. pastures, not only cruelty-free option), I'll totally go for it.

Edited by lightbird

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If someone goes vegetarian because factory farming is awful, I also hope that you buy only free-range eggs/dairy, because egg/dairy industry isn't a kind one either, because otherwise you're (general "you") a hypocrite.

 

 

I'm not a vegetarian, don't plan to become one anytime soon, can't afford eating free-range, hence I don't even try to pretend being ethical.

However, once lab-grown meat gets more developed - the taste-tested version from 2013 only contains muslce cells and no fat or blood vessels yet - and commercially viable (and so far it seems that it'll be a greener, not only cruelty-free option), I'll totally go for it.

You know things like this absolutely amaze me. It's interesting what science can do these days but also very scary. :/

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That's fantastic! I wonder if the vegetarians would eat meat like that or not. People are sometimes afraid of science so it could be frightening but it would also be really cool, especially when combined with the 3D printer.

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You know things like this absolutely amaze me. It's interesting what science can do these days but also very scary. :/

Any invention can be used for good or bad. :3

 

I know that some will yell that "it's not real meat, it's Frankenstein stuff, it doesn't have the celestial energy of meat" and whatnot.

 

That's fantastic! I wonder if the vegetarians would eat meat like that or not. People are sometimes afraid of science so it could be frightening but it would also be really cool, especially when combined with the 3D printer.

 

Well, it definitely will eliminate the ethical considerations for being vegetarian for people with common sense (points above).

 

Oh, also, 3d printing.

They also printed some organ last year (I don't remember, which), so why not meat from cells. :3

Edited by lightbird

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Any invention can be used for good or bad. :3

 

I know that some will yell that "it's not real meat, it's Frankenstein stuff, it doesn't have the celestial energy of meat" and whatnot.

Yeah that's the only downside I see to all this. It can be a great thing yet it can be the worst. If this can be developed enough that there is not difference between natural meat and lab-grown can you imagine how much of that can go to countries that really need it?

 

 

 

I PMed pudding before with this but they can also print 3D chocolate now. I seen a post of it on tumblr. biggrin.gif

Edited by demonicvampiregirl

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@demonicvampiregirl neither me or Severus will look down on someone. just tried to argue.

 

@pudding..so much hate...you don't want to argue, you just want to quarrel...

 

@lightbird...maybe i would eat this kind of meat...but i can't. it's an interesting idea.

 

btw i am not rich..i can't afford a cow...but i'd like to have one...or a pig.

Edited by Hallar

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@demonicvampiregirl neither me or Severus will look down on someone. just tried to argue.

You can argue much more effectively without using a comparison of a murderer in it. That is what really upset me.

 

You can say you find it morally wrong to eat meat (or in your case you actually get sick from it) but to use a comparison of murderers to cruelty not so much.

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If someone goes vegetarian because factory farming is awful, I also hope that you buy only free-range eggs/dairy, because egg/dairy industry isn't a kind one either, because otherwise you're (general "you") a hypocrite.

 

 

I'm not a vegetarian, don't plan to become one anytime soon (I, on the other hand, feel weird if I haven't had meat for several days), can't afford eating free-range, hence I don't even try to pretend being ethical.

However, once lab-grown meat gets more developed - the taste-tested version from 2013 only contains muslce cells and no fat or blood vessels yet - and commercially viable (and so far it seems that it'll be a greener, due to lack methane from livestock farts and less space needed for meat-growing facilities vs. pastures, not only cruelty-free option), I'll totally go for it.

Aha! That is like the study I was trying to find. =D

 

Well, I don't think that really makes them hypocritical as long as they are aware and also critical of those methods. Not everyone can afford free range all the time and sometimes you have to settle for doing what you believe in within your range of limitations.

 

I wonder if the vegetarians would eat meat like that or not.

 

This relates to your earlier question, which I don't believe got an answer - sorry about that! But I would think it sepended on why they became a vegetarian. Also, once you've been non-meat for a while, trying to put meat back into your body may be hard for your system to readjust and there's a chance it will just make you sick for a while.

 

As for reasons people go non-meat: social/ethical, religion, health, or any combination of those.

 

I do also apologize for my earlier harshness. It was out of line. My anger was more at my computer situation than with you.

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I oftentimes see a blanket "stop being condescending" on all people who change their diet.

 

So, if you wanna talk about things that upset you.

 

Well anyway, I for one would be glad to eat lab-grown meat, especially if it tasted like real meat. I personally love poultry, but I don't eat because, well, you know. I would continue eating meat if there was a movement to improve the meat industry, but there isn't. And NO ONE I've spoken to about it in my area seems interested in change because they have their meat; they're satisfied /: For me, it's a lot of having to overcome this barrier of people automatically assuming I'm pretentious (even though I've never ONCE used "meat is murder" in an argument) and shoving my beliefs down their throat, and finding someone who wasn't legitimately so keen to break down what I've already thought out.

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@demonicvampiregirl well, it was harsh, yes..but sometimes it's hard to stay calm if the people who eat meat will start a fight at once...and i don't say that you are this person, ok? it's hard for me to argue, because my english is to rusty..sorry.

 

 

 

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Vegans and vegetarians are usually very unhealthy because they don't get the nutrients they need. My Mediterranean heritage has given me anemia. To be completely honest, no. I would not go vegan because I need to eat meat. Nearly all iron supplement vitamins I have eaten have given me a negative reaction (usually vomiting) and I passed out when I skipped eating meat. I need meat in my diet to remain healthy. Would I die without it? Maybe, I don't know if my anemia would be that serious. But I don't want to find out.

 

I'm sorry but who is going to keep a cow in their house? Adults have enough trouble dealing with children, they don't need cows as well. And the cow isn't going to make them any money, it's just going to take it. Farm animals have become reliant on humans to live. If we go vegan, they all will perish because we won't need them any more.

 

Morality is both a byproduct of evolution and also varies from person to person. Trying to preach your morals onto someone else is like trying to convert people to your religion. Sometimes, they just don't want to because they don't agree with you and their ideals are different. The very 'good' that you are trying to do can come off as 'bad' because you are being pushy in an area where there is not one answer. There is no good and evil in the universe. It's a fictional ideal. Let me ask you a few questions that I would like for people to answer:

Is farm factory bad?

Can it be improved?

Why should people stop eating meat?

(If applicable) Why did you stop eating meat?

 

@ demonicvampiregirl:  pudding started those animal/human comparisons. I just went a step further as a logical consequence.

 

As for the looking down on people thing...I mostly notice meateaters making fun of vegetarians and vegans, I surely don't look down on anyone but if people tell wrong stuff, why shouldnt I mention that?

And if there's a discussion about vegetarianism and veganism

To answer some of Your questions:

Vegans and vegetarians are not usually unhealthy. quite in the contrary, they are usually healthier

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1627S.full

 

Farm animals wont perish because they are only kept for being eaten. No carnivores--> no farm animals that rely on people.

 

 

Is farm factory bad? Yes, definitely. Its exploitation at its worst.

Can it be improved? Can but only gradually.

Why should people stop eating meat? Because its healthier, it reduces greengases, it helps ensure world nutrition. (Btw Most food scandals are about meat )

Why did you stop eating meat? Because I cant stand the tghought that a living breathing creature had to suffer through a horrible existence and a terrible death just to satisfy my irrational desire for meat . Because its healthier and it helped me lose weight.

Edited by Severus_S

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@demonicvampiregirl well, it was harsh, yes..but sometimes it's hard to stay calm if the people who eat meat will start a fight at once...and i don't say that you are this person, ok? it's hard for me to argue, because my english is to rusty..sorry.

I get that. I've been in several arguments that was dead calm at first and then went to just plain arguing.

 

I just do not see the point in anyone saying things to another on how they eat period.

 

You wanna eat meat or salads go right ahead. I don't have a right to judge. I may pick on you if I know you but beyond that I wouldn't get nasty with it.

 

 

@ demonicvampiregirl: pudding started those animal/human comparisons. I just went a step further as a logical consequence.

 

As for the looking down on people thing...I mostly notice meateaters making fun of vegetarians and vegans, I surely don't look down on anyone but if people tell wrong stuff, why shouldnt I mention that?

And if there's a discussion about vegetarianism and veganism

 

I'm gonna assume that was meant to be in the post and not in the quote section.

 

Anyway to me humans are animals either way. We just have a higher form of intelligence and conscious than some other animals.

 

How I see it is when humans started to appear there may have well been cannibalism all the time. Whether that is true or not I have no clue but it can be very possible. As we evolved we started to deem it wrong and made laws over it.

 

We are just as edible as the next animal. They themselves have proven it time and time again.

 

It does not make them wrong nor does it make us wrong either. We view things as right or wrong and base our morals off that. It's all personal choice and should never be looked down on period.

 

It's like religion (I am NOT starting a religious debate. Take that to the religion thread) everyone has a choice on what to practice and some can even take bits of others and make one that suits them. It is not wrong it is purely their beliefs and they should be able to practice it without fear of judgement.

 

I know full well that it will never happen but if you want people to accept your ideals and morals better it's best to use arguments that support and do not demean or compare others to something that as society grew deemed to be immoral itself. (The whole using murderers and comparing it to animal cruelty isn't really that good of a argument.)

Edited by demonicvampiregirl

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Just to clarify the "murder" comparison I used.

Thats from some posts above this:

 

But I'm also not going to swear off of meat because of it and the hypocrisy behind removing humans from nature when nature can be cruel as well is silly.

 

So You think its hypocrisy to try and reduce suffering, helping to ensure everyone has food by going vegan? Just because "nature is cruel"?

Hm..oh well. So I am pretty sure You have no problem with the killing of children or murder per se because, well, animals kill their young sometimes and animals kill each other?

Honestly, thats not really an argument ;-). With that You could justify about anything.

 

So You see, I did in no way compare meat eating people to murderers. I reacted to pudding saying it didn't matter that animals suffer because nature was cruel and thats that.

I simply wanted to show that with that kind of "argument" You could justify just about anything like murder etc.. because .. yes murder is cruel, but nature Is cruel, so what?

 

I hope I clarified my stance on that.

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