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Vegetarianism/ Veganism

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vs. that mouse's ten minutes?

XD

 

10 minutes X 7 to 21 billion (mammals) per year in US

 

 

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Looking at humanity in general, one could argue that we have similar natures, then. If nature justifies cats and orcas, would it also justify the factories?

My personal response to this is that there's a bit of a difference. The humans who raise and own the animals intended for slaughter are responsible for the well-being and caretaking of the creatures, as well as their environment and living conditions, whereas the cats and orcas aren't in the same position. So I feel like the humans should do a better job for the lives that are under their charge.

 

That's just my opinion though, like I said. I pretty much swore off meat, but people are going to see it different ways than me and that's just fine.

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My friend is a vegetarian, but she eats fish... So does that not make her a true vegetarian?

 

Imo, being a vegetarian and or vegan is pretty bad for our bodies. Humans need meat to survive healthily. Hence us being called omnivores. But it's everyone else's choice on how they live. I'm just saying imo it's bad for them. (They're not as healthy as someone who eats meat would be.) < unless they ate heaps of Junk Food.

 

Not trying to cause arguments. happy.gif

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My friend is a vegetarian, but she eats fish... So does that not make her a true vegetarian?

 

Imo, being a vegetarian and or vegan is pretty bad for our bodies. Humans need meat to survive healthily. Hence us being called omnivores. But it's everyone else's choice on how they live. I'm just saying imo it's bad for them. (They're not as healthy as someone who eats meat would be.) < unless they ate heaps of Junk Food.

 

Not trying to cause arguments. happy.gif

That's generally called a pescetarian. wink.gif

 

Well, I'm certainly healthy and most vegetarians/vegans that I know are. It's definitely natural to eat meat, but if you know what nutrients you need and how to get them from sources other than meat then it works. Sometimes meat is the best source, true, but it's definitely possible to be vegetarian and be healthy.

 

(No worries, I'm not trying to cause arguments either. Just responding from personal experience.)

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xd.png

 

10 minutes X 7 to 21 billion (mammals) per year in US

I'm sorry. You seem to be missing a point since there doesn't seem to be one in your post.

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I'm sorry. You seem to be missing a point since there doesn't seem to be one in your post.

You asked what's ten minutes. I was pointing out that cats kill billions of mammals each year.

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I'm sorry. You seem to be missing a point since there doesn't seem to be one in your post.

You shouldn't be dismissive of cruelty (Cats and mice) of any sort of you're against cruelty (Farm factories). The numbers add up, even if it doesn't seem like a long time for us.

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That's generally called a pescetarian. wink.gif

 

Well, I'm certainly healthy and most vegetarians/vegans that I know are. It's definitely natural to eat meat, but if you know what nutrients you need and how to get them from sources other than meat then it works. Sometimes meat is the best source, true, but it's definitely possible to be vegetarian and be healthy.

 

(No worries, I'm not trying to cause arguments either. Just responding from personal experience.)

Yeah that's the word, I couldn't think of it... Thanks ^-^

 

As of that, in my post I didn't make it out clearly. It sounds as of what I said, made it look like I'm saying vegetarians/vegans aren't as healthy as non-vegetarians/non-vegans. Sure it's possible to live like that, but I guess not as strong? Like immune system wise. Meat is one of the strongest protein foods (But who doesn't know that xd.png) so it's healthy to eat meat in your regular diet. tongue.gif I made my opinion unclear haha.

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As of that, in my post I didn't make it out clearly. It sounds as of what I said, made it look like I'm saying vegetarians/vegans aren't as healthy as non-vegetarians/non-vegans. Sure it's possible to live like that, but I guess not as strong? Like immune system wise. Meat is one of the strongest protein foods (But who doesn't know that xd.png) so it's healthy to eat meat in your regular diet. tongue.gif I made my opinion unclear haha.

Ah, I see now. tongue.gif Hmm, personally I rarely get sick but then again I've always had a pretty tough immune system. *points to roommate who just recovered from H1N1* It probably depends on the person - there's definitely some people who can't go to vegetarianism because of medical reasons and the nutrients in meat shouldn't be substituted for them.

 

For me, the biggest effect is probably just that I'm not physically strong. Despite being at a healthy weight and build, I'm not very athletic and don't gain muscle very easily (if at all). I do ride horses and other aspects of my health don't seem to have been compromised, so it's not a major concern atm.

Edited by Dimar

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You asked what's ten minutes. I was pointing out that cats kill billions of mammals each year.

Not relevant. It wouldn't even be relevant if you had done the math for factory farms as well. It might be more relevant if mice felt it when other mice were in pain or dying.

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I get sick average-ish not all the time, but I still get sick. But, I'm pretty tiny in size, (my build) so not really strong >,<

 

(I don't know how that relates... But oh well...)

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I really don't think that people understand where I'm coming from. My personal choice because it will help me be more conscious of what I eat, and I will (hypothetically) lower demand.

 

But I don't know. Mass cruelty to serve public demand... and everyone just plays along with it. That's just me though. I'm not calling anyone evil or a sheep. I have no problem with small farming at all, but it's too expensive for my budget right now, so I'm vegan at the moment. It doesn't make me feel like a better person. If anything, it makes me feel very isolated that no one shares interest for what I feel is a totally valid cause.

 

It's just like to me, if they were mass producing children for slaughter (which is totally bogus I'm just making an analogy) and not even giving them a comfortable life, wouldn't you freak out? I'm not equating animals to people, but I'm saying that most farm animals (both meat and dairy) are sentient beings that are capable of feeling pain and primitive emotion, and the fact that they're not capable of cognitive thinking makes it even more heart wrenching for me. Just because something is not like you, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't care about its suffering.

 

Ughhhhh sorry I'm not going to rebut anymore (feel free to reply), I'll just rant like this. I don't want to sound preachy. But if anyone wants to discuss the diet that's fine with me.

 

EDIT: to remove a sentence that wasn't applicable and sounded very rude smile.gif

Edited by Lila

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I think I've already made my opinion on that subject pretty clear and so I shan't start that discussion again

 

But I can think of at least two reasons to not be more organic, you even mentioned one yourself. Some people just can't afford it. And sure being vegetarian or vegan could cost less (or more) than some people's current diets, but some people can't do that healthily. And some people don't want to give up meat because, frankly, it tastes pretty good. And, again, they can't afford to buy more organic stuffs

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Not relevant. It wouldn't even be relevant if you had done the math for factory farms as well. It might be more relevant if mice felt it when other mice were in pain or dying.

By whose standards? You're being dismissive of information that says that other creatures aside from humans can be cruel. Who are you to say mice do not grieve? I've had both a dog and a mouse die from depression after their companion died.

 

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I think I've already made my opinion on that subject pretty clear and so I shan't start that discussion again

 

But I can think of at least two reasons to not be more organic, you even mentioned one yourself. Some people just can't afford it. And sure being vegetarian or vegan could cost less (or more) than some people's current diets, but some people can't do that healthily. And some people don't want to give up meat because, frankly, it tastes pretty good. And, again, they can't afford to buy more organic stuffs

Which comes across to my ears (eyes?) and brain as "people put their own wants ahead of the welfare of another living thing."

 

/: I understand if someone is not medically able to make that diet change, or if someone isn't financially capable either. But I'm speaking in terms of someone who is capable of making that decision.

 

eta: going to bed and leaving this thread. Apologies if I sounded like a stereotypical veghead.

Edited by Lila

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By whose standards? You're being dismissive of information that says that other creatures aside from humans can be cruel. Who are you to say mice do not grieve? I've had both a dog and a mouse die from depression after their companion died.

Please go back and read the previous posts. I think you are ignoring what I and others are saying. Nobody said animals didn't inflict pain on other animals. We said there is usually a point whereas factory farming cruelty is due to human greed, ignorance, and laziness. Then I asked you to think about ten minutes of that mouse dying vs. the years a farmed animal suffers before it is put down. Randomly telling me how many mice cats kill without even considering how many animals we farm has no bearing or relevance whatsoever in the slightest.

 

Yeah, animals have some level of emotion BUT they are not sentient in the way we are. You are not going to stop non-human animals for killing for fun. Perhaps you can train your own pet, but all animals domesticated and wild? Humans, however, have self-restraint and the capacity to learn better techniques. Yay media to communicate and government to pass laws.

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What happened to no arguments ;n;

 

Also, is there a diet of nothing else but meat? Or don't they survive ;p because vegetables and fruits are completely essential to us

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I was vegan for two years, and was very outspoken about it.

 

That ended partly due to an ed and also I no longer believe the whole "veganism will save the world" and that it's even healthy thing.

 

I'm pescatarian now and understand it's an immensely complex issue and don't judge other people for eating meat, because it is natural and healthy. Factory farming is just extremely wrong and I just cannot bring myself to participate in it, but I don't kid myself that it's possible that everyone can afford this free range grass fed stuff.

 

I think people just need to realise that it's a far from black and white issue. Yes, it's mass cruetly to serve public demand (I would say need, people need to eat, please never ever attack someone who can't afford free range things), but there is mass cruelty in the production of just about everything else we buy, like electronics.

Edited by Legry

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Which comes across to my ears (eyes?) and brain as "people put their own wants ahead of the welfare of another living thing."

 

/: I understand if someone is not medically able to make that diet change, or if someone isn't financially capable either. But I'm speaking in terms of someone who is capable of making that decision.

 

eta: going to bed and leaving this thread. Apologies if I sounded like a stereotypical veghead.

 

Wait a tick. Humans are omnivores. From an evolutionary standpoint, we've been omnivores for a long time. Of course, this applies less to people living in areas where plants would not grow (Alaska and Canada) and would have a diet consistent mostly of meat as a result but, largely, humans are omnivores. So why stop people from eating meat? Morality?

 

There is an all meat diet that many people have attempted. Eskimos are a prime example of people who could not have many vegetables and fruits in their diet because of habitat.

 

And, back to the mice, it was not a random point. It was trying to say that humans are not the only species capable of needless cruelty. Let's go devil's advocate for a moment: Why? Why does it matter? They die in the end so does it really make their death any better if they were pampered in life? The cows we eat were breed and raised to be eaten. Why spend money on making their existences a little more plushy if, according to you, they don't even have the sentience that humans have? If they live to die... well, just think about it.

 

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Personally, I could never live vegetarian. I'm completely unbothered by the fact that my food was once an animal, prefer eating meat that's still on the bones. And I like animals, I love having pets and seeing wild animals in nature, so I'm not some sort of animal-hating sadist or anything. I do think factory farming is not a healthy way to go about producing meat, though, and if I had the money I'd eat exclusively free-range. I respect anyone who is strong-willed enough to go vegetarian or try to be vegan, but I'd crack and go back to my meat within the day.

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And, back to the mice, it was not a random point. It was trying to say that humans are not the only species capable of needless cruelty. Let's go devil's advocate for a moment: Why? Why does it matter? They die in the end so does it really make their death any better if they were pampered in life? The cows we eat were breed and raised to be eaten. Why spend money on making their existences a little more plushy if, according to you, they don't even have the sentience that humans have? If they live to die... well, just think about it.

I am on mobile and tired of saying the same thing over and over again. I am willing to go further in this discussion with you, but we cannot get anywhere if you ignore my points. I am sorry, but I do not have a different way to state my logic, so if you just aren't understanding something particular, please ask and I will try to explain better.

 

I also find Devil's Advocate to be pointless and stunt discussions, so I personally am not going to reply to any devil's hypothetical. I personally find them a waste of time. Perhaps someone else would enjoy going down that rabbit hole with you though. Good luck.

 

~

 

Going back to the immune system thing, I think that's really a problem with people just not getting the right nutrients. This does tend to be a focus in the vegetarian community I think because there tends to be strong reactions to people's chosen diet if it isn't considered the norm and bacause they are cutting out a big part of the food pyramid and we don't (US) tend to educate much really on how to eat well and warning signs if you are lacking something. But I do also think it is possible to have a perfectly strong immune system on a non-meat diet. =)

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And, back to the mice, it was not a random point. It was trying to say that humans are not the only species capable of needless cruelty. Let's go devil's advocate for a moment: Why? Why does it matter? They die in the end so does it really make their death any better if they were pampered in life? The cows we eat were breed and raised to be eaten. Why spend money on making their existences a little more plushy if, according to you, they don't even have the sentience that humans have? If they live to die... well, just think about it.

I confess I'm still not entirely sure why you keep coming back to this. But, for the sake of it...

 

Meat tastes better if it's been raised better. It's more tender if the animal wasn't tensed up and expecting pain when it died. So if you want a purely selfish reason for treating animals better... well, you get a better product at the end of it.

 

I will note here that the majority of the meat we eat does come from local farm shops, and has been locally reared on farms I know (in some cases by people I know personally), or has been shot locally by local gamekeepers. The quality is much, much better than supermarket meat. And it actually doesn't cost the earth. One £4 pheasant feeds four people if made into casserole or soup, the bones make stock (for said casserole or soup), and the leavings feed the dog. It tastes great, and I know that animal knew nothing of pain or fear until the moment the shot hit it (by which point it's dead).

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But I'm also not going to swear off of meat because of it and the hypocrisy behind removing humans from nature when nature can be cruel as well is silly.

 

So You think its hypocrisy to try and reduce suffering, helping to ensure everyone has food by going vegan? Just because "nature is cruel"?

Hm..oh well. So I am pretty sure You have no problem with the killing of children or murder per se because, well, animals kill their young sometimes and animals kill each other?

Honestly, thats not really an argument ;-). With that You could justify about anything.

 

And I like animals, I love having pets and seeing wild animals in nature, so I'm not some sort of animal-hating sadist or anything.

 

But whats the difference between the animals You say You love and those You eat? Pigs are way more intelligent than dogs or cats, yet they are still eaten.

 

As an aside, I used to think buying biolgically grown would help reduce suffering.. well, it doesnt mostly. Cows and pigs mostly still end up in slaughterhouses just like factory farmed animlas and for example male chicks are often shreddered alive because they are "useless".

 

But leaving the whole killing, hurting, animalrights aspect out of this:

Not eating meat will effectively reduce consumption of fresh water, it does help feeding this planets population, simply because many countries will grow grains and soy as export goods that end up feeding farm animals grown for consumption.

As far as I know about 90% of the worlds soy production end up as animal fodder.

 

Water footprint:

http://www.ciwf.org.uk/resources/farm_anim..._footprint.aspx

 

Also CO2.. Most people think Co2 output is only from cars, factories and heating....

Wrong again, an very big part Co2 is coming from animal "production".

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/factory-fa...-climate-change

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/01/17-5

http://ccafs.cgiar.org/bigfacts/global-agr...ture-emissions/

http://www.worldwatch.org/agriculture-and-...gas-emissions-0

Edited by Severus_S

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So You think its hypocrisy to try and reduce suffering, helping to ensure everyone has food by going vegan? Just because "nature is cruel"?

Hm..oh well. So I am pretty sure You have no problem with the killing of children or murder  per se because, well, animals kill their young sometimes and  animals kill each other?

Honestly, thats not really an argument ;-). With that You could justify  about anything.

 

 

 

But whats the difference between the animals You say You love and those You eat? Pigs are way more intelligent than dogs or cats, yet they are still eaten.

 

As an aside, I used to think  buying biolgically grown would help reduce suffering.. well, it doesnt mostly. Cows and pigs  mostly still end up in slaughterhouses just like factory farmed animlas and for example  male chicks are often shreddered alive because they are "useless".

 

But leaving the whole killing, hurting, animalrights aspect  out of this:

Not eating meat will effectively reduce consumption of fresh water, it does help  feeding this planets population, simply because many countries  will grow grains and soy as export goods that end up  feeding farm animals grown for consumption.

As far as I know about 90% of the worlds soy production end up as animal fodder.

 

Water footprint:

http://www.ciwf.org.uk/resources/farm_anim..._footprint.aspx

 

Also CO2.. Most people think Co2 output is only from cars, factories and heating....

Wrong again, an very big part Co2 is coming from animal "production".

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/factory-fa...-climate-change

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/01/17-5

http://ccafs.cgiar.org/bigfacts/global-agr...ture-emissions/

http://www.worldwatch.org/agriculture-and-...gas-emissions-0

Morality is hypocrisy in a Sunday suit. The difference between murder and these factories is that nothing good comes out of murder. People are not fed because we do not practice, cannibalism, we cannot use the skin because it is one of our own kind and that falls into the same lines. The only thing that comes out of murder is death and wasted resources. To compare Farm factories to murder is not relevant. Moreover, the fact it is a child makes no difference to me. Murder is murder is murder. If anything, I mourn the adults because we spent way more resources having them grow up. I'll squeal as much as the next person over a baby whatever but there is no difference between child murder and adult murder. It's just murder. Moreover, your argument trying human murder to animal murder is not an argument.

 

Has anyone ever seen a wild turkey? If you have, you'll note they look NOTHING like the creatures we eat. That is because we have been breeding all of our farm animals to have more meat, be fatter, etc. If we suddenly stopped farming right now and released everything into the wild, they'd all probably die quite quickly. It's like if we put a really fat man in the middle of the rainforest. He wouldn't know what to do. He'd get eaten in under a few days.

 

 

 

There is no right or wrong in the universe. The forces of good and evil everyone is trying to define in this thread to not exist. Humanity is like a pack of wolves or a herd of elephants. Before we try to do anything else, we should focus our efforts on helping each other. Give me a vegan diet that has the nutrients I need and whatever? Fine, I'll give it a go. For everything I'm saying on here, I only eat farm raised and organic food, usually grown by my local farm. But before you try telling me about the feelings of the animals, lemme just point you towards the slums and the people living in other countries who have yet to eat today at all. Why can't we make their lives a little plushier instead of the cow's? I mean, this moral crusade everyone seems on should probably be directed at your own species first. Unless you feel more connections to a cow or a pig than you do another human.

 

 

~~~~~

 

Off of the argument preaching why everyone should toss aside their eggs and bacon, I'll probably remain an omnivore. I don't see everyone suddenly turning communist or even socialist any time soon.

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I'm afraid I fail to be convinced by your ecological arguments. Put bluntly both the water and CO2 you mention in factory farming link back to one thing - the growth of crops to feed the animals concerned. The world going vegan would not stop us needing to grow crops - indeed we would need to grow *more*, and of a greater variety requiring more attention.

 

The only part of your ecology argument that doesn't go back to the growing of the crops in the first place is a problem that effects *all* types of food - the CO2 produced in transporting it. And because a person requires a greater volume of plant matter to aquire the same calories they would from animal produce you'd actually need *more* trucks on the road to move it all. As well as the tractors and fertiliser involved with growing it.

 

The solution to the presented ecological problems is not the world going vegan. In reality that would have little effect (as previously stated - the CO2 produced, and the water used, are all used at the feed crop growing stage). The solution is to return to an older way of farming. Buy your produce locally - it will have had less of an impact on the environment because it will have travelled less. Buy your produce in season - again, it will have travelled less. If you cannot shop in local farm stores pay attention to country of origin labels.

 

Not only that, but returning to older methods of farming would also improve the soil (crop rotation), and reduce the impact of extreme weather events. Modern farming methods cause water run off from the fields - resulting in flooding. It also contributes to soil erosion and habitat loss, as properly laid hedgerows (rather than barbed wire, or the type cut harshly from a tractor) not only provide wind-break which reduce erosion, but also a valuble habitat for wildlife.

 

There *are* problems with modern intensive farming. But veganism isn't the solution to them. Taking an interest in the provenance of your food will help far more. (Incidental note - many of the things required to make a vegan diet healthy are also not easily grown in northerly climates. This would actually *raise* the CO2 problem, as consumption of those diet essentials would rise and would need to be imported because they couldn't be grown locally).

 

I also wonder wether or not you have given any thought to what would happen to all these animals if the world were to turn vegan over night (or even in a short space of time)? Farmers are not going to pay to keep things that are unprofitable. The result would be mass slaughter of cattle, pigs, sheep... any animal currently reared for use in the food industry. Or clothing industry, for that matter. The world going vegan would not result in better treatment of these animals - it would result in their extinction. I often wonder how much thought vegan campaigners have given to that.

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