Jump to content
Snowytoshi

Vegetarianism/ Veganism

Recommended Posts

16 hours ago, Princess Kiara said:

I haven't read the thread

 

I'd love to debate this in a civilized, intelligent manner, so feel free to @ me if you care to respond :)

 

 

what do you think? really

 

 

Edited by LadyLyzar
Removing large glaring text

Share this post


Link to post

I actually rather agree with you, Kiara. People who are going to be that extreme in their criticism of others need to be very extreme in their own behaviour - and many just aren't. A bit like those environmentalists who drive miles and miles to a demo against fossil fuels, and refuse to accept that what they did to get there was part of the problem they claim to care about.

 

I am an omnivore; almost everyone else in the family is veggie and one of my grandsons is vegan. Except that he terribly wants me to be veggie, and is very sad that I can't see the moral rightness of it (I can actually, but I still don't want to - a choice, I admit, and I am actually sad that my position hurts him) none of them tries to impose their views on anyone else. Lead by example, not by confrontation.

 

@Guivre - I'm not sure what you are trying to say there ?

Share this post


Link to post

@Princess Kiara

I'm so damn glad I've never come across any vegans as opinionated as the ones you're talking about, lol! I do have some responses though:

 

8 hours ago, Princess Kiara said:

They claim honey is "stolen" from bees, when in faact they are left with more than enough to survive and what is taken helps to avoid honey impaction. 

 

A main issue vegans have with bee farming is not necessarily that honey is "stolen" from them, but that bees are treated extremely poorly by a majority of big-brand bee farms. The queen bee often has her wings removed to prevent her from flying away, which if you compare to a pet parakeet having its wings entirely removed, is similarly cruel. To reduce the expenses of keeping them alive during winter, bee keepers also sometimes burn their entire hives with all the bees inside, and frequently take all of the honey (not leaving enough for the bees to survive on) in seasons where they don't produce as much - these methods result in the killing of bees. It can be a very cruel industry, so vegans have problems with it even though it is true that bees make a surplus of honey. Source, and another.

 

8 hours ago, Princess Kiara said:

They claim chickens are "forced" to lay eggs, when if an egg is unfertilized, the chicken has no use or need for it.

 

This actually isn't true. It takes a lot of energy and nutrients for chickens to lay eggs, and if they aren't taken away, the chickens will eat their own eggs in order to regain the nutrients lost from the egg-producing process. This is particularly problematic as many domestic hens, and particularly industry hens (as in, ones used in farms, not just backyard hens) are bred to produce over TEN TIMES the amount they'd lay in the wild - even more. In the wild, a typical chicken would lay 10-15 eggs per year. Farming hens lay up to 250-300 eggs a year, which is pretty unnatural. If you imagine how much energy that takes, and how many nutrients are lost, the chicken definitely does need those unfertilised eggs to keep herself healthy! Here's a source.

 

8 hours ago, Princess Kiara said:

They claim wool is "stolen" from sheep, yet happily neglect the fact that sheep will die if left unsheared (or they will blame it on farmers breeding the sheep).

 

Again, a natural, wild sheep would not have this problem. Chickens and sheep are bred to produce things purely for human consumption. Wild sheep can shed their own coats after winter to keep themselves cool for summer, and grow it when they need insulation in winter. The way domesticated sheep have been mass-bred means it's impossible for them to do this, as they have been bred to produce as much as humans want. That isn't the only reason vegans care about the wool industry though, because aside from the mass breeding, they are often farmed cruelly - they can be beaten and cut up as they're being sheared, About blaming farmers for breeding the sheep, I'm kinda unsure as to what your last point means, because breeding a sheep until it is incapable of shedding its own wool to keep itself alive through the different seasons... Yes, vegans do have a problem with that. When cotton and polyester are excellent substitutes that don't require animals... Source timeAnd another.
 

 

I'm really not trying to be a "pushy vegan", I just have responses to those three points you made, because they are points that a lot of non-vegans use against veganism and we do have reasons as to why we are against those issues. I haven't responded to all of your points, but I can if you so wish.

A lot of veganism is educationally and scientifically backed - claiming that people are "uneducated" is a little disheartening, especially because a lot of vegans go vegan in the first place because we have educated ourselves as to what actually goes on in factory farming, and even the "less harmful" dairy and egg industries. This is why I linked sources to what I was saying, because what these people claim isn't just pulled from nowhere - vegans do their research, otherwise I doubt they'd care as much as they do about animal rights!

I recommend watching the documentaries "What the Health", "Forks over Knives", "Cowspiracy" and definitely "Earthlings" if you also want to educate yourselves as to why we go vegan.

Again, I apologise if I do come across as a "rabid vegan". I'm just passionate ^^;

Share this post


Link to post

@Guivre I'm not sure what bearing my having read the thread or not has on my knowledge and opinions on rabid militant veganism?

 

@Fuzzbucket exactly, they claim to support animals, but the things they push in no way help animals and are in many cases actually detrimental. I've had several drawn-out discussions with Sonia Sae, the animal abuser, and she swears up and down her "vegan" fennec fox, Jumanji, is healthy and that the photos of him looking sick are from before she made him eat vegan food. Then proceeds to post videos of a lethargic, sick looking fox claiming they are recent...lol.

Share this post


Link to post

grey - you are lucky. I have run across many rabid vegans who actually don't know what they are talking about, but are quite happy to attack with misinformation. I accept that you make valid points, properly researched - though have to say that when I was a child, my father had LOADS of chickens and sold the eggs - but they were TOTALLY free range (and had a nasty habit of climbing trees and then laying - messy...) and they laid far more than 15-20 eggs a year, and never bothered to eat them; they were quite happy with the chicken feed they were supplied with. We left them to do their own thing - they were virtually wild, though had a shed they could sleep in if they liked, but they often didn't - in fact thinking back I am amazed to think that as far as I knew we never lost even one to a fox. That's weird. Anyway - they laid easily 3 eggs a week each in season, which is a lot more than your 15-20..

Share this post


Link to post
9 minutes ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

@Princess Kiara

I'm so damn glad I've never come across any vegans as opinionated as the ones you're talking about, lol! I do have some responses though:

 

 

A main issue vegans have with bee farming is not necessarily that honey is "stolen" from them, but that bees are treated extremely poorly by a majority of big-brand bee farms. The queen bee often has her wings removed to prevent her from flying away, which if you compare to a pet parakeet having its wings entirely removed, is similarly cruel. To reduce the expenses of keeping them alive during winter, bee keepers also sometimes burn their entire hives with all the bees inside, and frequently take all of the honey (not leaving enough for the bees to survive on) in seasons where they don't produce as much - these methods result in the killing of bees. It can be a very cruel industry, so vegans have problems with it even though it is true that bees make a surplus of honey. Source, and another.

 

 

This actually isn't true. It takes a lot of energy and nutrients for chickens to lay eggs, and if they aren't taken away, the chickens will eat their own eggs in order to regain the nutrients lost from the egg-producing process. This is particularly problematic as many domestic hens, and particularly industry hens (as in, ones used in farms, not just backyard hens) are bred to produce over TEN TIMES the amount they'd lay in the wild - even more. In the wild, a typical chicken would lay 10-15 eggs per year. Farming hens lay up to 250-300 eggs a year, which is pretty unnatural. If you imagine how much energy that takes, and how many nutrients are lost, the chicken definitely does need those unfertilised eggs to keep herself healthy! Here's a source.

 

 

Again, a natural, wild sheep would not have this problem. Chickens and sheep are bred to produce things purely for human consumption. Wild sheep can shed their own coats after winter to keep themselves cool for summer, and grow it when they need insulation in winter. The way domesticated sheep have been mass-bred means it's impossible for them to do this, as they have been bred to produce as much as humans want. That isn't the only reason vegans care about the wool industry though, because aside from the mass breeding, they are often farmed cruelly - they can be beaten and cut up as they're being sheared, About blaming farmers for breeding the sheep, I'm kinda unsure as to what your last point means, because breeding a sheep until it is incapable of shedding its own wool to keep itself alive through the different seasons... Yes, vegans do have a problem with that. When cotton and polyester are excellent substitutes that don't require animals... Source timeAnd another.
 

 

I'm really not trying to be a "pushy vegan", I just have responses to those three points you made, because they are points that a lot of non-vegans use against veganism and we do have reasons as to why we are against those issues. I haven't responded to all of your points, but I can if you so wish.

A lot of veganism is educationally and scientifically backed - claiming that people are "uneducated" is a little disheartening, especially because a lot of vegans go vegan in the first place because we have educated ourselves as to what actually goes on in factory farming, and even the "less harmful" dairy and egg industries. This is why I linked sources to what I was saying, because what these people claim isn't just pulled from nowhere - vegans do their research, otherwise I doubt they'd care as much as they do about animal rights!

I recommend watching the documentaries "What the Health", "Forks over Knives", "Cowspiracy" and definitely "Earthlings" if you also want to educate yourselves as to why we go vegan.

Again, I apologise if I do come across as a "rabid vegan". I'm just passionate ^^;

You're actually being pretty nice about it! My problem is with the vegans who are rude, militant and downright closed minded.

 

Regarding apiculture - I don't doubt that some beekeepers are sad excuses for human beings, just like some farmers undoubtedly are. But most of them that do it the old way (and I know a few) do their darnedest to keep the bees healthy. Bees are extremely expensive, it's not in their best business interest to harm them.

 

As to chickens -- again, I own chickens and one of my closest friends is a chicken farmer. While it's true they weren't naturally made to lay so many eggs, as long as you provide nutrient rich feed, it's perfectly fine. There are aspects of the egg and dairy industry that are awful, just like any other industry, but this is not one of them.

 

And again, as to the sheep--much of what you said is, with all due respect, just vegan propaganda, furthered by AR groups such as PETA. True, sheep have been bred to produce more wool; but shearing is just a haircut. Most decent sheep farmers take absolute care not to harm the sheep's skin while shearing. Wool is, after all, fur; and fur will not grow on damaged skin. Mulesing is a different matter, but that is done for health reasons and only on a certain breed of sheep.

 

As far as the documentaries you mentioned, I don't know about one of them; but I do know What the Health, Cowspiracy and Earthlings are vegan propaganda with little basis in truth.

 

A while back I wrote a long essay on why veganism doesn't truly help the environment. Let me dig up the link and repost here. It was a lot better written than this lol, I just woke up so I'm not as coherent as usual.

Share this post


Link to post

This is copy and pasted from a post I made on a Facebook group called This is a weird hill to die on:


***MILITANT*** vegans do not ACTUALLY care about animal welfare. They just care about being viewed as morally superior and forcing their agenda down everyone's throats.

Evidence:
They choose to remain willfully ignorant on multiple topics, i.e.:
*Sheep NEED shearing or they will DIE.
*Animals in heat WANT to be bred.
*AI is NOT rape and in cases can be safer than a live cover
*Purebred does NOT equal inbred (registration requires a CoI of under 6% IIRC)
*Some animals are literally BRED to work and they live to do what they are bred for i.e. herding dogs/horses/PP dogs/etc.
*Some people's bodies literally CANNOT survive on a vegan diet, but **** them I guess right?
*Chickens will still lay eggs they have no use for, even if they don't mate. It's unethical to waste unfertilized eggs.
*Milk does not have blood and pus in it wtf.
*Nut juice is NOT and does NOT taste like milk.
*Hunting is, in many cases, NECESSARY for environmental preservation. Even trophy hunting serves a purpose. (That "rare" black giraffe that had everyone so up in arms? It was an older, infertile, aggressive male who was hindering reproduction by not permitting younger, fertile males to breed. The lady who bagged him paid out the ass for the privilege and the meat all went to feed a local poor village. Nothing was wasted and it only helped the species. The money also is supposed to go to conservation efforts.)

And my personal favorite:
Cats are OBLIGATE carnivores, yet rabid militant vegans feed them a vegan diet which is ANIMAL ABUSE and expect them to thrive.

THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO NORMAL VEGANS. JUST THE ANNOYING LOUD AF MILITANT TYPE.

EDIT: Forgot to add that taking some honey from bees is NOT STEALING, it helps the hive survive by avoiding honey impaction. Only the extra is taken. Bees are always left with enough to survive, unless the beekeeper is an idiot which happens sometimes of course.

SECOND EDIT: The more extreme PETA types will go so far as to ACTUALLY abuse animals so they can stage videos and paint industries in a horrible light. I.e. ripping off angora rabbits' skin along with their fur...which real angora farmers do NOT do...even from a cold financial standpoint it would be EXTREMELY counterproductive for business.

THIRD EDIT: When confronted online, these extreme militant vegans cannot actually defend their viewpoints, so they go directly to false appeals to emotion ("would you want your family member to be eaten?"), ad hominem attacks ("meatcuck", "carnist wanker", etc.), or more usually both.

Share this post


Link to post

No-one needs to take anything PETA says seriously. Noxious does not begin....

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, RealWilliamShakespeare said:


I recommend watching the documentaries "What the Health", 

What The Health...be careful recommending that.

 

https://www.vegan.com/posts/vegan-dietitian-review-what-the-health/  (review written by a vegan health professional)

http://time.com/4897133/vegan-netflix-what-the-health/ (TIME fact check)

 

The first link is, I feel, more important. But both of them illustrate that you have to take at least this particular documentary with a grain of salt and probably some solid research about vegan health and ideals under your belt before you go watching it. x:

Share this post


Link to post

So folks what are you favorite fruit, grain, veggies?

 

I am a sucker for potatoes, but love spinach, broccoli, and so many others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

Spinach, sprouts, most nuts, chickpeas/garbanzo beans, tomatoes, onions - I may end up listing the entire vegetable garden... Raspberries, peaches, grapefruit...

Share this post


Link to post

Cucumber. OMG cucumber. And I love lychees too.

Share this post


Link to post

My favorite veggies, fruits and berries include at least fennels, eggplants, blood oranges, figs, cherries and black currants. ❤️ If I extend to legumes and nuts I have to add chickpeas and peanuts.

 

I loved to find out there is a thread for vegetarianism and veganism on the Dragon Cave forums! I've been a vegetarian for quite a many years but a vegan only for like three or four years. I always wanted to quit dairy and eggs as well but the truth is I was eating plenty of dairy products and as my life situation was really difficult back then I found it unbearable to commit to any additional changes or challenges. If I only had known veganism never became a challenge for me! When I finally took the step further I immediately felt better and more in peace with myself. I had stopped eating eggs somewhat naturally, without realising it, and then decided to ditch dairy actually because of my digestive problems. I'm not sure if it was any help for my stomach really (though nowadays my stomach is just fine) but for my mind it was. I couldn't even think about eating dairy products ever again and stopped using any animal products altogether. Today I'm a volunteer in our local animal rights organisation and veganism and animal rights are a huge part of my life.

 

I do think eating animals for most people is quite the same as walking around eyes closed and, in many cases, refusing to open them. The reasons for that can of course vary. At least here in Finland the most common reason seems to simply be the convention. The exploitation of animals that is reality in our age is by no means natural, let alone necessary. Because of that I consider veganism the only right option although I don't mean everyone should became vegans right away. Even the smallest acts towards a more animal friendly way of life are valuable.

Share this post


Link to post

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.