Vegetarianism/ Veganism

[Rosedamai]

I used the term bloodmouth simply to show that I refuse to be guilted by it. Just as I tell people I was a nutter in the loony bin at one point - as I am not in the least ashamed of or stigmatised by my mental illness history.

In that case, I guess it's acceptable for me. Thanks, fuzz.

[Zaxian]

I eat meat, frankly, because I really like the taste. I'll try to choose animal products from animals that have at least not been battery farmed (free-range eggs, for example) but I can't say that I suffer a great deal of guilt from eating something that was once a living animal - I think it's a pretty natural thing for us (as omnivores) to do.

 

On the other hand, were there meat replacements that tasted the same as meat, but did not involve animals (I'm thinking the whole synthesized-meat-grown-in-a-lab thing) then I'd happily eat that instead (depending a little on price - I think, with current technology, a 'lab grown' burger-sized lump of meat is reckoned to cost around £200,000 ). I personally think the comparison between how much vegetable food can be grown on an area of land, versus that of cattle, is one of the more compelling arguments for not eating meat.

[DarkLadyNyara]

I'm a shameless omnivore. I've got nothing against vegetarians/vegans, provided they don't lecture me about the topic. To each their own, you know?

 

I'm omnivorous because we evolved to be omnivorous. The ability to consume and digest meats is what allowed us to survive an ice age, a time where exclusively consuming plant matter was about akin to a death wish.

^ This. Hillariously, I have seen people honestly try to claim that humans eating meat is unnatural. (With some rather... interesting arguements to back it up.) I suspect these are the same people who try to feed cats on a vegetarian diet.

 

She said she would remove them from families that refused to feel them animal/fish products.

Actually, she said she's had to remove children from vegetarian or vegan households. (I'm going to assume due to the diet causing problems in those specific cases.) That isn't the same as having an issue with vegetarianism across the board.

[cfmtfm]

But she does have issues with it for children. And that's wrong. She said she would remove them from families that refused to feel them animal/fish products.

Assuming you meant feed, not feel Jokes aside, I recall her stating...

The number of times I've had to remove otherwise adored children from vegetarian or vegan homes because they refuse to feed their children needed meat or animal byproducts is so sad to me.

I would assume the same thing as 7Deadly$ins did. Perhaps they needed to eat specific meat(s) once in a while [after all, they are vegetarian and/or vegan families] and they weren't getting those meats when they were needed. Maybe they needed to get the nutrition that they couldn't get elsewhere [although I can't think of anything that can't be replaced].

[Snowytoshi]

I'm omnivorous because we evolved to be omnivorous. The ability to consume and digest meats is what allowed us to survive an ice age, a time where exclusively consuming plant matter was about akin to a death wish.

Another thing we have is free will! Yay!

 

^^Which gives you the right to be omnivorous and me vegetarian. To me I can't imagine doing anything different with my life and you may very well feel the same with yours.

 

Also I heard someone mention the PETA? I personally don't support that organization because of their extremist methods. Toe me it doesn't make sense that in support of animal welfare you'd burn down a laboratory with animals inside. I'd prefer to put my backing behind the ASPCA.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Snowytoshi

[inlaterdays]

Oh gosh, the "bloodmouth" thing rears its ugly head on here.

 

Please be assured that only a small, militant, misguided group of vegans coined this ridiculous term - my friend (very much an omnivore) and I were laughing a bit at it last night. I think it sounds unintentionally cool and kind of hardcore, if you like that sort of thing. I was complaining that I wanted a cool nickname too: I guess I can be a cheesemouth.

 

I'm VERY sorry to those who are offended by it. Most vegetarians and vegans think it's as ridiculous as you do.

 

I would never judge someone else's dietary choices - it's just not my business. I avoid meat just because I feel healthier without it - but I also take a LOT of vitamin/mineral/amino acid supplements, and I check in with my doctor.

 

Honestly, it's all down to individual choice, in my opinion. I also eat organic food as much as possible...but I have a terrible weakness for caffeine and sugary sodas, which is something I really have to try to fight.

[Lythiaren]

Well yeah, pretty much. You're well within your right to avoid animal products for whatever reason you see fit. It could be in support of animal rights or because you just don't like meat or even for a nonsensical reason like if someone believed they should be vegan because a talking mosquito told them to. I honestly don't care why someone would avoid any given product, be it meat or non-biodegradable plastic or Nike shoes. If you want to avoid it, you will avoid it and I'm not one to judge people for their consumer choices. I'll judge people in charge of companies, sure (eg. animal cruelty, environment, child labor, etc.), but that's because they're the ones actually making the decisions that have such negative consequences. They're the ones ultimately at fault, the rest is just noise that they interpret as encouragement. The consumer has a right to choose what to consume, for any reason.

 

As far as I'm concerned as long as people don't judge others for which food types they choose to get their nutrition they can be vegan or purely carnivorous or anywhere in between.

 

By that same vein, I think people like that one girl whose Tumblr I linked, are quite judgmental and intolerant of diet, of all things; I mean, she publicly declared that she refuses to be nice to people if they are not vegan. That's just stupid.

 

I also think that people who call me a bloodmouth are very silly. The immediate mental image I get (again thanks to Tumblr...) is someone falling facefirst into a girl's crotch during shark week. Or a viking. Or a certain Homestuck character.

 

Y'know what, I'll stick with viking. It's the coolest choice, obviously. :V

Edited August 17, 2012 by Lythiaren

[Rosedamai]

I think it sounds unintentionally cool and kind of hardcore, if you like that sort of thing.

 

I'm VERY sorry to those who are offended by it. Most vegetarians and vegans think it's as ridiculous as you do.

Now I can only think of some hardcore metal vocalist going like "OMNOMNOMNOMNOM!" chewing on a bloody steak while metal guitar riffs are playing in the background, which is a lot less traumatizing picture And thank you, both for the apology and the funny mental picture!

 

A question for vegans though: I know that some vegans (I don't know how many) advocate vegan lifestyle choices for their pets. However, some pets are completely carnivorous, such as cats, snakes, and ferrets. How do you deal with this in this situation?

[sparkle10184]

I am a vegetarian but I have friends who are not. I don't think any less of them though.

 

It's true, PETA uses some very extreme methods. Also, I heard some where (I'm not actually sure if it's true) that PETA euthanizes adoptable animals. Keep in mind this might not be true but I just wanted to mention it.

[Fuzzbucket]

Assuming you meant feed, not feel Jokes aside, I recall her stating...

 

I would assume the same thing as 7Deadly$ins did. Perhaps they needed to eat specific meat(s) once in a while [after all, they are vegetarian and/or vegan families] and they weren't getting those meats when they were needed. Maybe they needed to get the nutrition that they couldn't get elsewhere [although I can't think of anything that can't be replaced].

I did indeed mean feed. Though....

 

But I will reserve judgement on what she meant till she comes back. As a LOT of people (even in the health services) insist that children cannot survive as vegan - or even as veggie. Which is NOT true and was why I wrote such a lot of leaflets...

[Severus_S]

I've gone vegan some time ago, after being vegetarian. I'm feeling better and my conscience is much more at ease.

As to the argument about children needing meat and mik etc.. thats been properly refuted quite some time ago.

There have been several studies (long term too) that showed that children that are brought up vegan do as a rule NOT show any deficiencies.

It is however a widely spread prejudice that children do need milk, meat etc. You can go buy soya baby milk in the drugstore next door.. no problem there.

The ony instance were bringing up kids would probably be a problem is with a strictly frutarian diet, but I do not know much about that .

As a matter of fact vegans and children of vegans are usually more healthy, less overweight, suffer less allergies etc.

 

There is a lot of misinformation going round about vegan diet and protein or vitamin deficiency especially in kids.

There is not even proof of B12 deficiency, which is one of the favorite arguments.

Good searches: Oxford vegetarian study, China study

 

And while I'm at it: Great vegan cookbooks are by Isa Chandra Moskowitz: Vegan with a vengeance , and Veganomicon *g*

 

As for being intolerant attributed to vegans/vegetarians.. I read an interesing article about that. There was a small study about reactions of omnivores to vegans... vegans are being perceived as intolerant, aggressive even if they are neither...

The result of this study was that many omnivores feel that vegans are kind of morally superior, because they succeed in doing what they do.. that is, not support factory farming, being healthier, not being responsible for having plants used as food for animals while in other places people starve etc.. Therefore they feel threatened and are agressive or make fun of vegans.

(For anybody who is interested : http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wissen/psycholo...inden-1.1274443 Its in german only, sorry)

 

I noticed that too. The moment You mention You are vegan or vegetarian, the stupid jokes start or they try to persuade You You are wrong and You lack nutrients.. strangely enough, it is vegans who are told they "are on a mission", try to persuade anybody they are wrong etc.. I experience quite the opposite. its the meateaters who obviously feel the need to tell us we are wrong and we simply have to eat meat and milk to prevent factory farms and mega dairies from making money..oops.. I mean.. to prevent ourselves from getting protein and vitamin deficiencies .. ;-).

 

I admit, such behaviour makes me angry and that will probably show if someone starts to make fun of me or tell me, that my diet is unhealthy.. *g*

 

Id like to see tell people that to him:

 

He is a vegan *g*

Edited August 17, 2012 by Severus_S

[Fuzzbucket]

I've gone vegan some time agon, after being vegetarian. I'm feeling better and my conscience is much more at ease.

As to the argument abot children needing meat and mik etc.. thats been properly refuted quite some time ago.

There have been several studies (long term too) that showed that children that are brought up vegan do as a rule NOT show any deficiencies.

It is however a widely spread prejudice that children do need milk, meat etc. You can go buy soya baby milk in the drugstore next door.. no problem there.

The ony instance were bringing up kids would probably be a problem is with a strictly frutarian diet, but I do not know much about that .

As a matter of fact vegans and children of vegans are usually more healthy, less overweight, suffer less allergies etc.

 

There is a lot of misinformation going round about vegan diet and protein or vitamin deficiency especially in kids.

There is not even proof of b12 deficiency, which is one of the favorite arguments.

Good searches: Oxford vegetarian study, China study

 

And while I'm at it: Great vegan cookbooks are by Isa Chandra Moskowitz: Vegan with a vengeance , and Veganomicon *g*

THANK YOU !!!

[Lythiaren]

Baby milk brings up an interesting topic.

 

What do vegans think of breastfeeding? I mean, technically, a human being is an animal too. Is there a consensus on whether a mother's milk is considered an "animal product" to be avoided? Or is it an exception to the rule because it comes from a mom who (presumably) gives her baby permission to take and use her milk?

[sparkle10184]

Baby milk brings up an interesting topic.

 

What do vegans think of breastfeeding? I mean, technically, a human being is an animal too. Is there a consensus on whether a mother's milk is considered an "animal product" to be avoided? Or is it an exception to the rule because it comes from a mom who (presumably) gives her baby permission to take and use her milk?

Well, in many cases on a farm the cow would be slaughtered when it can't produce milk anymore. But I don't think that usually happens with mothers....

[Severus_S]

I think breastfeeding is okay, thats what a mothers milk is for, isn't it? As long as other mothers babies aren't killed for it... (read: calves. To produce milk a cow needs to have given birth. The calf is usually taken away from its mother after 1-7 days. The cow is impregnated again soon after)

[ShinyTomato]

There is NO basis for this idea. It is PERFECTLY possible to raise a child vegetarian - and even vegan as long as you give them B12 and (non-animal !) vitamin supplements.

 

I am aware of that. However, there are many parents who do it incorrectly, or who have children who are unable to be sustained on a vegetarian or vegan diet, and despite that, refuse to feed their children meat for moral reasons, or change the way they feed to a better vegetarian diet.

 

I do hope you DON'T remove children from their homes just for that reason. I feel rather ill thinking about it. If you really do - please take better professional advice and stop. (where is Kestra when I'm in need...)

 

I do not get to choose what children I do or do not remove, either.

 

Many parents who raise children as omnivores feed them FAR worse, with junk food, no veggies and the rest.

 

I know.

 

Many people do not do sufficient research / don't have the money to actually buy products which contain the rarer irreplaceable vitamins, amino acids and what have you in sufficient amounts.

 

I've met parents who refuse to give their children supplements, they believe it is an unnatural way to get nutrients.

 

But she does have issues with it for children. And that's wrong. She said she would remove them from families that refused to feel them animal/fish products.

 

I only have an issue with it if it endangers the child. I myself, when I was a baby, due to allergies, had to drink a disgusting combination that included goat's milk and ground meat. I have met parents in California with babies who needed certain things, and the parents refused to give them to them on moral grounds. One actually told me, she would rather have her child starve than survive on the oppression of animals.

[inlaterdays]

There are some myths being perpetuated about dairy here...they may apply to factory farms, but I try to stay away from the products of those.

 

Organically raised, free-range dairy cows on small farms are treated well. Dairy cattle have been bred to overproduce milk and they can continue to give it for up to three YEARS after they've had a calf. They produce far more milk than a calf can take care of and will actually get infections if they are not milked regularly. If the equipment is clean, there is no problem with regular milking.

 

Sure, the milk and cheese is more expensive, but it's worth it to me to support places that treat their animals well.

 

[Severus_S]

But thats not a problem of being vegan.There are probably enough parents who feed their kids quite wrong, but who are not vegan.

Is it possible there might be a ..slight prejudice regarding vegans?

Would parents have their kids taken away, for any other kind of malnutrition? What would happen to paents who had an extremely fat baby that was given coca cola and fed burgers? Would they be given a pat on the shoulder and told to supplement something or would their child be taken from them?

I get the impression that people are more ready to have a vegan baby taken from its parents, than any other malnourished baby.

As for the mother who said she'd rather have her child starve than live on animals.. as it is perfectly prossible to feed a kid strictly vegan , why not tell her what vegan products to use instead of implying she'd have to use animal products ?

Its not a problem of vegan diet, its simply a problem of missing information on the part of some vegans.

 

[Shienvien]

Would parents have their kids taken away, for any other kind of malnutrition?

Yes, of course. I've heard of ill-fed children being taken from their parents for feeding them hamburgers the exact same way.

 

 

As I said in my earlier posts, I know a child can be healthily raised on strictly vegan components, as long as the parent(s) know what they are doing and have the money to buy what's needed for it (having a vegan diet which gives one all of the required nutrients is, at least based on the prices here, a few times more expensive than a decent omnivorous diet). Other than the matter with prices, you simply have to know which plant contains what and how much of each a growing human body needs, and feed your child accordingly. That's all.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Shienvien

[Severus_S]

There are some myths being perpetuated about dairy here...they may apply to factory farms, but I try to stay away from the products of those.

 

Organically raised, free-range dairy cows on small farms are treated well. Dairy cattle have been bred to overproduce milk and they can continue to give it for up to three YEARS after they've had a calf. They produce far more milk than a calf can take care of and will actually get infections if they are not milked regularly. If the equipment is clean, there is no problem with regular milking.

.

 

Hm, I only repeated repeating what I read in a magazine that advertised organically produced dairy products. The article said calves are taken away from their mothers one week after birth. (In contrast to one day in factory farming).

These organic cows are slaughtered after about 8 or 9 years. A cow in factory farming lives about 3-5 years.

Natural life expectancy for a cow is between 30 -60 years.

 

I looked up milk production and impregantion. What I found says a cow will be impreganted artifically after about 1 year.

(Sorry, don't have links atm)

 

[Severus_S]

As to prices, vegan products are often more expensive but I noticed that I buy a lot less unnecessary other foodstuff like sweets etc so it balances out, at least for me *g*

[inlaterdays]

Hm, I only repeated repeating what I read in a magazine that advertised organically produced dairy products. The article said calves are taken away from their mothers one week after birth. (In contrast to one day in factory farming).

These organic cows are slaughtered after about 8 or 9 years. A cow in factory farming lives about 3-5 years.

Natural life expectancy for a cow is between 30 -60 years.

 

I looked up milk production and impregantion. What I found says a cow will be impreganted artifically after about 1 year.

(Sorry, don't have links atm)

My info comes from my brother, who is a large and small animal vet. I'm thinking now that different places operate differently, even among the organic dairy farms.

 

Thank you for the information, though - this has inspired me to do more research about the places I'm actually buying from! (And it's also got me wanting to head more towards veganism.)

 

I think artificial insemination varies based on the place, too - in addition, it's done to some sheep, but there seems to be less outcry about wool? Or maybe I'm missing that.

[Stripey]

I have an odd question for all y'all who are vegan or strict vegetarian. It is something I have been pondering off and on for years, but never remembered to ask.

 

Do you consume or use things that include chalk? Why or why not?

 

The reasoning behind this question is that chalk is made from the shells (tests) of animals (coccolithophores, foraminifera and various other Protozoans), and because of this, I consider it an animal product.

Do you consider it one? Or do the natural deaths of the millions of animals it is composed of make it not count as having an animal origin?

[ShinyTomato]

But thats not a problem of being vegan.There are probably enough parents who feed their kids quite wrong, but who are not vegan.

 

Yes, there are. I would have posted the same thing as in "I have no problem with it, so long as it doesn't endanger children" in a junk food thread.

 

Is it possible there might be a ..slight prejudice regarding vegans?

 

At work? No.

 

Would parents have their kids taken away, for any other kind of malnutrition?

 

Yes, have done.

 

What would happen to paents who had an extremely fat baby that was given coca cola and fed burgers? Would they be given a pat on the shoulder and told to supplement something or would their child be taken from them?

 

Here's what happens in any case --

 

1. Someone reports a case of malnutrition or suspected malnutrition.

2. CPS visits and interviews parent and child.

3. The child is checked out by at least three doctors and a bevy of tests are ran to determine the problem, and find out if there is any way for the parent to have been unaware of the problem.

4. A state nutritionist, specialising in that sort of nutrition is called (vegetarian/vegan, low-income, lactose-intolerant, food allergies, to name a few). They give the parent instructions on how to feed said child given issues at hand.

5. CPS visits multiple times over months, with the child being tested for improvement, and diet being tracked. If the parents refuse to change the child's died, and the child is still having issues with malnutrition, it is taken away.

 

I get the impression that people are more ready to have a vegan baby taken from its parents, than any other malnourished baby.

 

Not at all. In fact, I hate it most of all. It's really easy to take a child away from a home where the parents just refuse to feed their child in a way healthy for them because they don't want to. It is very hard to take a child away from otherwise loving parents because of a moral stance.

 

As for the mother who said she'd rather have her child starve than live on animals.. as it is perfectly prossible to feed a kid strictly vegan , why not tell her what vegan products to use instead of implying she'd have to use animal products ?

 

It is not possible to feed EVERY child strictly vegan. Her child in particular, had an intolerance that made it impossible for her to feed the child a vegan diet and have the child thrive. She had a severe case of intolerance to Fermentable Oligosaccharides Disaccharides Monosaccharides and Polyols, which made the child physically sick on many of the necessary vegetables and plant products needed to get those nutrients.

 

Its not a problem of vegan diet, its simply a problem of missing information on the part of some vegans.

 

It depends on the vegan and the child in question, which is why education can sometimes help.

 

 

[Shienvien]

Price, regretfully, pays a great role for poorer families - if we take a family living in borderline poverty, they probably do not have the excess to spare for the

selection of vegan products which'd provide them with everything a body needs.