Vegetarianism/ Veganism

Obscure_Trash · August 26, 2016

I did briefly address this in a previous post. I know my posts are long because I'm trying to answer so many questions.

Here's what I said earlier:

A lot of medical issues are caused by the meat people are eating. And they don't even try veganism, so they have no way of knowing.

http://www.nomeatathlete.com/iron-for-vegetarians/

If there really are people who must have meat, it's not because they are "omnivores", but because they've screwed themselves up so bad their body no longer functions normally like it should.

Many people have a lot of different issues that they find were caused by meat,dairy,junk-food,some-other-unhealthy-habit. Then they blame plants for this issue. "It's the plant's fault I'm all screwed up! Clearly, I shouldn't eat plants because plants are the CAUSE of it."

When in fact, if they would stop their bad habits, in this case let's just say its meat-eating, and start good habits, eating plants, their issues would go away.

This feels like skirting around the issue. It's not about veggies causing them health issues. It's about not being able to sustain a healthy life without supplementing their diet with meat.

Also, I do realize you are being overwhelmed with lots of people to respond to. Good news is that I'm off to bed, so I can't pester you any more tonight. =)

Arwen17 · August 26, 2016

Arwen17 - Can you please tell me why you think humans have carnivore-like canines? I'm interested.

Also (pet peeve warning!) You got your genetics wrong. Yes, there are mutagens. No, foods are not mutagrns. What are? Raidiation, certain chemicals, UV rays, and X-rays.

What you may be thinking of is the epigenome - it's modifications that affect the DNA text. Like DNA methylation, histone modifications, and similar. Epigentic imprints on a zygite are wiped except for crucial imprinting regoins when the zygote forms, and from then on the environment can affect it. Epigenetic changes can be transmissible - but it's not really common.

---

Now, my PoV. I do not mind what you eat, so long as you don't push it down people's throats. That's all I really gace to say.

Yes, factory farming is cruel - but it is not easy to sustain huge populations without things like that!

Also, crop farming can sprnd a lot of water. Not good. I should kniw - I currently live in California! We gave a severe drought, so we cannot have people draining all of it fir crops. Not to mention all the pesticides. Most peopke don't really care about organic when they farm - they want cash. So they use pesticides to make their plants less insect-infested.

Organic farmers are the minority, so their food is expensive. And while growing your own sounds noble, if you want a big enough operation to feed yoursslf from it most of the time, you need to have farm knowhow and/or a good understanfing of growingbthings in your clinste. My parents farmed when they were children, and my grandparents were farmers up until recently.

And then... well, we evolved as omnivores, to be honest. Look at our evolutionary rekatives! Our closest relatives are chimpanzees and bonobos, both of which are omnivorous. There are great apes who are completely insectivirous or gerbivirous, nut most great apes are omnivores. Omnivires have the ability to digest both plants and meat by definition, and to durvive offboth. It seems to be easier to survive on a herbivorous diet than a carnivotous one, but that may be due to increased variability.

Yes, the West has health issues thanks to processed food. But meat id not by any iota the only type of processed food. White rice? Yep, processed. Yes, we have the power to change that. Some people do not want to though - and if it's not you or your dependent, it is likely it isn't your business. Others have certain foods they cannot eat or are extremrly picky.

Still other people have heath issues. There are people who eat what they eat for health reasons! Shienvien and rampaging wyvern are both very good examples and make much better points than I can.

Also, humans do not have a specific ideal diet for the whole species. Instead, each individual has their own ideal. If your ideal is your vegan diet, then eat it! I just happen to have a different ideal diet, that's all. Another thing that can maje ir beeak a diet is texture. Pineapple and dark poultry meat make me gag, peppers and tomatoes are too slimy, carrots are much too chewy, hot dogs have a weird texture, etc for me (in short, a much less severe version of wyv's issue, though like wyv I have food interest issues) - but you have your own palate. And funny fact - I actually make myself eat thise horrible carots (horrible no matter commercially or home garden grown) because of my eyesight! Due to a hard time noticing hunger and low interest in starting to est food (and recently losing interest faurly quickly), I have to eat stuff I find tasty to get myself to eat, and I'll dump my food and creep off if I know I've got no chance at a sweet.

Finally, did you know Japanese culture actually eats a fair bit of meat (dark chicken meat, seafood)? And there are multiple Japanese oeople in the top 10 longest-lived currently alive last I checked.

A site you may want to investigate and search on: http://www.nature.com/index.html

Nature us a highly respected scientific journal, if you're curious.

I think I'll leave now to go look up some genetics stuff there. Plus it's 2 in the morning for me and I need my sleep.

I'm sorry if I sound rude - I seem to have an issue with coming off as rude... very sorry if I seem rude!

Finally, did you know Japanese culture actually eats a fair bit of meat (dark chicken meat, seafood)? And there are multiple Japanese people in the top 10 longest-lived currently alive last I checked.

Yes, I've lived and studied in Japan. Observing their healthy population first-hand is a huge part of what inspired me to go vegan.

Yes, they have meat, but they don't eat giant bloody steaks do they? They eat tiny pieces of fish and chicken. The vast majority of your meal is rice and veggies. I was there. I lived there and ate there.

At one point, I accidentally went 2 months without eating meat while I was there because they are so healthy (I was not vegan at the time and didn't even know what vegan was), and I got promptly sick when it was introduced to me again because it had been awhile and was too rich.

Getting sick eating meat is what made me realize how long it had been since I had eaten meat. They eat so little meat the rest of the time, that when they take it away, you might not even notice.

Also, I mentioned the centenarians of Okinawa in my previous posts. That particular group is the longest-lived of all the Japanese and they eat the least amount of meat. Meat is only eaten during extremely special occasions.

Yes, white rice is processed. Did you know the Japanese used to eat brown rice? But their royalty preferred white rice. So when incomes and technology rose, everyone wanted to eat white rice because it was "rich people's food". To this day, many Japanese won't eat brown rice because they call it "poor man's food".

I'm well aware of epigenetics. I like the possibilities of epigentics because what it means is you are not doomed by your genes. If your parents ate poorly, but you eat healthly, you might be able to undo what they did to your genes...all thanks to epigenetics.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Arwen17

RWyvern · August 26, 2016

I've always been a fussy eater, and it only worsens with time. Like a couple of other sensory issues. Sounds worsen for me all the time. It's a feature, I guess.

I said that plant matter *can* make me sick. Wheat based products are an 'absolutely yes please more of that'. I even like the tastes of some fruits and vegetables, but can't bear the texture, or vice versa. Some have to be steamed just right. I won't have any baked other than potatoes. I will only have others raw. It's really tricky, especially for my parents who have three kids all on the spectrum with their own finicky tastes. And it's become so exhausting to try out new stuff only to find out it doesn't work for me that I just stick with the tried and tested. Some I grin and bear it with my best attempts to mask the taste/texture with something else.

At some point I did start easing off into a more vegetarian diet. It simply didn't work.

I'll edit this response in b/c I think it's too insignificant for a post

The usual reasons people fail is they're not eating enough food (because you have to eat a lot more on a vegan diet compared to a meat diet)

And therein lies one of two halves of a major contributing factor as to the reason I remain omnivorous.

I believe I mentioned before that I have no interest in food and already have a bare minimum of what I should be having. I have always had my priorities out of whack. It's something I cannot help. My projects, whether drawing or working with deceased animals, the animals I care for, exploring and learning new, sometimes unnecessary things, and so on, these take priority for me.

I don't have time to devote to food. It's pretty silly, I know. But things that can seem so trivial to some can be the exact opposite for others.

I am NOT going to convert to a vegetarian or vegan diet anytime soon.

I just wish I could run away from the conflicting feelings that I've developed in my mind from trying to view both sides of the argument fairly.

Edited August 26, 2016 by rampaging wyvern

Arwen17 · August 26, 2016

This feels like skirting around the issue. It's not about veggies causing them health issues. It's about not being able to sustain a healthy life without supplementing their diet with meat.

Also, I do realize you are being overwhelmed with lots of people to respond to. Good news is that I'm off to bed, so I can't pester you any more tonight. =)

haha thanks!

I'm not trying to skirt around the issue.

My point is they *could* maintain a healthy vegan lifestyle, but they've got something else going on that's stopping them. My only argument is everyone could maintain it, if they really, really, really wanted to and they weren't have some seriously crazy health problems that could be throwing their body out of wack. Say they drink themselves to death every night. Well, no matter how perfect the vegan diet is, it's not going to be able to combat a behavior like that.

The usual reasons people fail is they're not eating enough food (because you have to eat a lot more on a vegan diet compared to a meat diet), they're not eating enough variety of foods, they're eating a processed-food-vegan-diet instead of HCLF whole--foods diet or they miss their old foods too much. So they give up and claim it just didn't work for them.

HCLF vegan diet says high-carb foods are king. Veggies are secondary. So go to town on potatoes, rice, bananas, bread, pasta, etc.

Arwen17 · August 26, 2016

Arwen17 - Can you please tell me why you think humans have carnivore-like canines? I'm interested.

Also (pet peeve warning!) You got your genetics wrong. Yes, there are mutagens. No, foods are not mutagrns. What are? Raidiation, certain chemicals, UV rays, and X-rays.

What you may be thinking of is the epigenome - it's modifications that affect the DNA text. Like DNA methylation, histone modifications, and similar. Epigentic imprints on a zygite are wiped except for crucial imprinting regoins when the zygote forms, and from then on the environment can affect it. Epigenetic changes can be transmissible - but it's not really common.

---

Now, my PoV. I do not mind what you eat, so long as you don't push it down people's throats. That's all I really gace to say.

Yes, factory farming is cruel - but it is not easy to sustain huge populations without things like that!

Also, crop farming can sprnd a lot of water. Not good. I should kniw - I currently live in California! We gave a severe drought, so we cannot have people draining all of it fir crops. Not to mention all the pesticides. Most peopke don't really care about organic when they farm - they want cash. So they use pesticides to make their plants less insect-infested.

Organic farmers are the minority, so their food is expensive. And while growing your own sounds noble, if you want a big enough operation to feed yoursslf from it most of the time, you need to have farm knowhow and/or a good understanfing of growingbthings in your clinste. My parents farmed when they were children, and my grandparents were farmers up until recently.

And then... well, we evolved as omnivores, to be honest. Look at our evolutionary rekatives! Our closest relatives are chimpanzees and bonobos, both of which are omnivorous. There are great apes who are completely insectivirous or gerbivirous, nut most great apes are omnivores. Omnivires have the ability to digest both plants and meat by definition, and to durvive offboth. It seems to be easier to survive on a herbivorous diet than a carnivotous one, but that may be due to increased variability.

Yes, the West has health issues thanks to processed food. But meat id not by any iota the only type of processed food. White rice? Yep, processed. Yes, we have the power to change that. Some people do not want to though - and if it's not you or your dependent, it is likely it isn't your business. Others have certain foods they cannot eat or are extremrly picky.

Still other people have heath issues. There are people who eat what they eat for health reasons! Shienvien and rampaging wyvern are both very good examples and make much better points than I can.

Also, humans do not have a specific ideal diet for the whole species. Instead, each individual has their own ideal. If your ideal is your vegan diet, then eat it! I just happen to have a different ideal diet, that's all. Another thing that can maje ir beeak a diet is texture. Pineapple and dark poultry meat make me gag, peppers and tomatoes are too slimy, carrots are much too chewy, hot dogs have a weird texture, etc for me (in short, a much less severe version of wyv's issue, though like wyv I have food interest issues) - but you have your own palate. And funny fact - I actually make myself eat thise horrible carots (horrible no matter commercially or home garden grown) because of my eyesight! Due to a hard time noticing hunger and low interest in starting to est food (and recently losing interest faurly quickly), I have to eat stuff I find tasty to get myself to eat, and I'll dump my food and creep off if I know I've got no chance at a sweet.

Finally, did you know Japanese culture actually eats a fair bit of meat (dark chicken meat, seafood)? And there are multiple Japanese oeople in the top 10 longest-lived currently alive last I checked.

A site you may want to investigate and search on: http://www.nature.com/index.html

Nature us a highly respected scientific journal, if you're curious.

I think I'll leave now to go look up some genetics stuff there. Plus it's 2 in the morning for me and I need my sleep.

I'm sorry if I sound rude - I seem to have an issue with coming off as rude... very sorry if I seem rude!

Arwen17 - Can you please tell me why you think humans have carnivore-like canines? I'm interested.

That's the #1 most common argument meat-eaters try to use. A quick google search provides thousands of answers to that question.

https://www.google.com/#q=vegans+canine+teeth

I'd like to see you rip open a rabbit with those "canine" teeth of yours. I doubt it would taste very good either.

Gorillas, hippos, elephants have massive canines and they're herbivores.

Another reason I'm not fond of processed vegan foods. Nut-based plant milks use a lot of water. Because nuts need a lot of water to grow. HCLF vegan diet foods take a lot less energy and water to grow and are unprocessed foods.

I will direct you to a link in my previous posts about how our entire intestinal tract looks like a herbivore, not an omnivore.

Our digestive tract looks like a herbivore, not a carnivore/omnivore. We are LITERALLY not designed for meat. It's a scientific fact. True omnivores have digestive features that look more like carnivores. http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/09/a...r-herbivores-2/

Shienvien · August 26, 2016

There is nothing "wrong" with me. I'm built like a tank. I'm full of physical energy (if a bit through with dealing with people-things mentally, but that's more to do with the sheer quantity of that). Some years, I don't even manage to catch a simple cold, and it's been well over a decade since I've been "properly" ill. I've never needed a surgery. I've never passed out in my life. I have not vomited since I got a stomach bug from my mother when I was grade four (I'm past university now). My pulse at rest is about 67 or so. My blood pressure has generally been 117/76-120/80, sometimes a bit lower, never higher. I can hold my breath for 2.5 minutes and keep working with my hands without any notable effort. My last blood tests have been just fine, with only iron being a tiny bit under average, but not too low - still well within the norm.

It also means my present diet is working for me. Vegan/vegetarian diet did not, and from what I know of how my body handles things, could not. My father has also been a lot healthier since cutting most wheat products from his menu.

The problem with most hydrocarbons is that many people (especially those with fairly high metabolism) are essentially too good at digesting those - which means that their blood sugar would be thrown out of whack and then they're instantly hungry again. It's even worse with fruit and some high-sugar vegetables. Hydrocarbons are essentially just long chains of pure sugar, nothing more, nothing less. With a predisposition to type II diabetes, you'll soon get it. Sadly, I could name names here... But even for people not headed for diabetes, that game of high-low is not particularly good. It can lead to various health problems and even premature death.

For the matter, we don't have the "herbivore" digestive tracts, either - and even your classical herbivores, like deer, will not hesitate to eat meat when given the opportunity. Gorillas in nature, by the way, are not pure herbivores, either.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Shienvien

Aleoleo · August 26, 2016

I've always been a fussy eater, and it only worsens with time. Like a couple of other sensory issues. Sounds worsen for me all the time. It's a feature, I guess.

I said that plant matter *can* make me sick. Wheat based products are an 'absolutely yes please more of that'. I even like the tastes of some fruits and vegetables, but can't bear the texture, or vice versa. Some have to be steamed just right. I won't have any baked other than potatoes. I will only have others raw. It's really tricky, especially for my parents who have three kids all on the spectrum with their own finicky tastes. And it's become so exhausting to try out new stuff only to find out it doesn't work for me that I just stick with the tried and tested. Some I grin and bear it with my best attempts to mask the taste/texture with something else.

At some point I did start easing off into a more vegetarian diet. It simply didn't work.

I completely empathize with you.

As a kid I was really underweight, with a very fast metabolism. The only things I liked were pasta and potatoes, and even so, eating was just such a chore.

Here's a little story that just came back to me: once, when I was 17 (I'd been living alone for a few months), I got really bad tummy cramps, and thought I was sick. Called my mom to ask what I could do, and she advised I cook something light, like soup. That's when I realised I hadn't eaten for 3 days. I'd just... forgotten about it. *shrug* (and yeah, the cramps were my stomach screaming at me)

Anyway. I became vegetarien for ethical reasons, but it was also very easy because I had no interest in food to begin with. Dropping part of it was no big deal, so why not?

Somewhere along the way, my tastes changed (or maybe I just found things to eat that did it for me) and I actually became very fond of food. I'm a big eater now, have been for more than 15 years. I LOVE to eat, love to cook, eat often and a lot (although I always stayed on the very thin side, seems like nothing can change that).

2 years ago, I tried vegan raw food. I believe my diet was a good, healthy one. The food tasted good, looked good. It was nice. And... I lost absolutely any interest in eating. I wasn't hungry anymore, so I ate, well, nothing, lost almost 10kg in 2 weeks (that's around 22 pounds I think?). I never even realized what was happening, my husband's the one who did. (then I cooked a huge veggie pizza for the whole family and all was well again, although it took 2 months to get my weight back ^^)

[end of my life story, sorry about that ]

So, yeah. One can argue endlessly about what is healthy, what is good for the body, how humans are made to eat this but not that... If your brain/mind/spirit doesn't cooperate, it won't work anyway.

Arwen17 · August 26, 2016

There is nothing "wrong" with me. I'm built like a tank. I'm full of physical energy (if a bit through with dealing with people-things mentally, but that's more to do with the sheer quantity of that). Some years, I don't even manage to catch a simple cold, and it's been well over a decade since I've been "properly" ill. I've never needed a surgery. I've never passed out in my life. I have not vomited since I got a stomach bug from my mother when I was grade four (I'm past university now). My pulse at rest is about 67 or so. My blood pressure has generally been 117/76-120/80, sometimes a bit lower, never higher. I can hold my breath for 2.5 minutes and keep working with my hands without any notable effort. My last blood tests have been just fine, with only iron being a tiny bit under average, but not too low - still well within the norm.

It also means my present diet is working for me. Vegan/vegetarian diet did not, and from what I know of how my body handles things, could not. My father has also been a lot healthier since cutting most wheat products from his menu.

The problem with most hydrocarbons is that many people (especially those with fairly high metabolism) are essentially too good at digesting those - which means that their blood sugar would be thrown out of whack and then they're instantly hungry again. It's even worse with fruit and some high-sugar vegetables. Hydrocarbons are essentially just long chains of pure sugar, nothing more, nothing less. With a predisposition to type II diabetes, you'll soon get it. Sadly, I could name names here... But even for people not headed for diabetes, that game of high-low is not particularly good. It can lead to various health problems and even premature death.

For the matter, we don't have the "herbivore" digestive tracts, either - and even your classical herbivores, like deer, will not hesitate to eat meat when given the opportunity. Gorillas in nature, by the way, are not pure herbivores, either.

WOW.... please show me one study where HCLF veganism CAUSED diabetes.

Are you sure you're not confusing veganism with Fruitarianism?

Fruitarianism isn't healthy because it doesn't have enough variety of foods, but it still doesn't CAUSE diabetes.

Diabetes isn't caused by sugar, it's caused by a high-fat diet aka meat/dairy.

Once you have diabetes, you have to watch your sugar intake, but it is not the CAUSE of diabetes.

http://www.forksoverknives.com/fat-insulin...ce-blood-sugar/

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/...10814141432.htm

By your logic, everyone in Japan and everyone in Loma Linda should be diabetic. Yet, diabetes is non-existent among these populations.

You are splitting hairs. You act like these creatures sit down to a burger at every meal. They eat meat on the rare occasion and it might be because they're not finding enough food (competition, drought, etc), so they're really hungry and willing to eat anything, even if it isn't optimal.

Of course there are people who eat meat all their lives and don't have any issues. There are also people who smoke all their lives and don't have any issues either! All that means is they are lucky to have genes strong enough to withstand their bad habits. An "absence of symptoms" doesn't mean you're healthy. It can mean you've got great genes that are thwarting the cigarette's attempts to kill you, or it could mean in another year you will finally have lung cancer appear out of the blue.

The thing about meat-eating is that its a "chronic" inflammation rather than an "acute" inflammation like drugs,alcohol,smoking. It takes YEARS for meat-eating to effect people. That's why people don't start having problems until later in life.

I don't have a problem with people cutting wheat out, if they want to, since you usually aren't baking the wheat yourself. You're buying it pre-processed as bread and pasta in a store. Potatoes, rice, bananas are better because they are unprocessed.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Arwen17

Kestra15 · August 26, 2016

I just enjoy my steak too much, and find vegetables an utter faff to prepare.

There is also the fact that we are omnivorous animals, hence why we do have a mixture between sharp, ripping teeth and flat, crushing teeth; that we have the ability to break down large hard fats through enzyme production especially with respect to the gall bladder; that meat can pass through our digestive tract without causing any problems (except, as with anything, for those who are not used to it - much like I cannot process a purely-vegan diet very well). We have a clear history of a gather-and-scavenge species, hence why animal remains, evidence of hunting and scavenging tools and even good old cave paintings showing such activities are invariably found around human remains from long ago.

That we can survive on vegetarian or vegan diets is not a surprise; most omnivorous creatures can forgo meat, but cannot forgo their greens. We need a healthy balance of both. This is why people who simply cut out meat in their diet without doing any half-decent research end up unwell; this is especially evident in young children, who can be admitted with severe malnutrition or medical problems secondary to their diet. It is possible to have a healthy vegetarian/vegan lifestyle, but for a lot of people this requires some research into appropriate alternatives to meat, an increase in the physical amounts of food, and/or supplements until they hit on the right combination. And this is not a convenient diet for many, having to shop at multiple outlets or pay more at more specialised outlets.

Vegetarianism, and moreso of veganism, is not a natural state of being but rather the result of the privileged and provided-for world that we live in. Vegetarianism has been strong in India but this is because an entire culture has been devoted to living such a life, and even then it is still apparently acceptable not to follow such a lifestyle, and while evidence exists to support that some of the wealthiest and influential peoples of ancient Greek culture could afford a vegan diet, it has only been in the last 150yrs (so the advent of medicine, sustainable agriculture, industrialisation, the end of enforced self-sufficiency of the common person, and better standards of living) that both have become a recognised option - even then only to the more wealthy sectors of society. It has become more prominent in recent decades with the advancement of science and medicine as we now know what the body actually needs to survive and we can engineer foods that allow us to do so. But note that vegetarianism and veganism are really the purvey of the developed worlds, where we have the money, time, and choice. The demographics predominantly show that it is Europe and the US where veganism is rife, since we can afford to be so ethical and self-righteous that we can harp on about cruelty to animals, ethical considerations, our chi e.t.c. In countries where resources are more scarce, infrastructure is less developed, or beggars really cannot be choosers (see Inuit and some African/Asian cultures) such a diet is very rare indeed.

There is no doubt that there are some advantages to a vegetarian or vegan diet, however as with all healthy eating advise the key word is 'moderation.' The healthiest recommended diet does include meat and fish but in small quantities, while dairy products should also be limited in serving sizes (for example, the recommended serving size for cheese is only 30g/day). This is the same with carbohydrates, vegetables, salt, sugar, fat...we do need all these things, but in an appropriate proportion. So while there are some recognised benefits to vegetarianism and veganism (such as reduced risk of ischaemic heart disease and bowel cancer), but again the risks of malnutrition are significantly higher if the appropriate research is not done.

Or, in short:

I like steak. Lots of steak. But I should eat less. But still have some steak.

Diabetes isn't caused by sugar, it's caused by a high-fat diet aka meat/dairy.
Once you have diabetes, you have to watch your sugar intake, but it is not the CAUSE of diabetes.

Wrong.

Diabetes has several causes, and categories are commonly refered to now as IDDM (insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus) or NIDDM (non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus):

- Type I diabetes a form of IDDM when the pancreas does not produce sufficient insulin, often discovered very early in life and leaving people in life-threatening conditions. This is often due to the body attacking the insulin-producing cells (the Islets of Langerhans) which is known as an autoimmune response (i.e. your immune system attacking itself). As well as being born with it this can also come about later in life from damage to the pancreas (e.g. trauma, surgical removal or cancer) or a spontaneous defect in the Islets of Langerhans. As this is often congenital or forms in early life, diet and lifestyle has no effect. Accounts for around 10 - 15% of forms of diabetes.

- LADA (Latent autoimmune diabetes of adults) is another form of IDDM when type I diabetes forms in adults due to an autoimmune response causing the Islets of Langerhans to fail. This is autoimmune and thus is not relate to lifestyle, and it is thought that it accounts for 5 - 10% of all forms of diabetes. However it is usually misdiagnosed as Type II (below) and so the incidence could actually be higher.

- Type II diabetes is a NIDDM where the body produces insulin but the cells cannot effectively utilise the insulin in order to absorb sugar, thus becoming insulin-resistant. This is most commonly due to being overweight and thus creating a build-up of fatty deposits - which can come from any sedantry/over-eating/low-exercise lifestyle regardless of diet. So while diet does play a part, it is still the greater lifestyle regardless of diet. You can be a fat, lazy vegetarian after all. Thought to account for around 80-90% of diabetes, but see LADA above. This can develop into an IDDM.

- Gestational diabetes occurs when, due to the changes in hormone levels in the body, a pregnant woman can develop high/low blood sugars. This is usually resolved after the birth of the child as the woman's body reverts to original form, however this is not always the case and so can result in a non-insulin dependent form of diabetes.

- Diabetes can also be as a result of infection, a side effect of drugs or overdosing on drugs, cystic fibrosis or pancreatitis causing general pancreas damage, diseases that cause over-production of insulin antagonists... they can be either NIDDM or IDDM.

So diabetes is caused by many, many, many things that have nothing to do with meat.

I'm well aware of epigenetics. I like the possibilities of epigentics because what it means is you are not doomed by your genes. If your parents ate poorly, but you eat healthly, you might be able to undo what they did to your genes...all thanks to epigenetics.

That....isn't how it works. It's not a case of eating unhealthy => genetic mutation/ eating healthy => genetic mutation. If your parents ate poorly, then any health issues you get is because you also ate unhealthily with them for a while. If you then later have a healthy diet and you lose weight, gain fitness, increase energy, decrease depression etc then that isn't genetics, that's just how the human body works regardless.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Kestra15

pudding · August 26, 2016

A lot of medical issues are caused by the meat people are eating. And they don't even try veganism, so they have no way of knowing.
http://www.nomeatathlete.com/iron-for-vegetarians/

If there really are people who must have meat, it's not because they are "omnivores", but because they've screwed themselves up so bad their body no longer functions normally like it should.

Arwen17, stop assuming things about people's medical history and personal history.

I tried vegetarianism for one and a half months during my first semester at college. I was really stressed about the change and every time I ate food I ended up getting severe stomach pain from a combination of stress, IBS I didn't know about at the time and nodules in my thyroid I also didn't know about at the time. I literally couldn't eat anything and I trimmed down my diet at every turn to try to figure out why the hell I literally couldn't eat. I lost somewhere around 15 pounds in those three months and by the end of it I was not eating meat of any kind or dairy.

Do you know what happened when I cut meat?

I passed out. It took me two weeks before I woke up face down on the floor in my room. I was thankful I had pretty thick carpet on my floor and hadn't cleaned up my clothes in a while or I probably would have given myself a concussion and knocked my teeth out. I fell asleep everywhere. I didn't have any energy and could only barely stay awake during classes. I had to walk around with someone everywhere because I was worried I couldn't even make it back to my dorm.

And do you know what?

My stomach pain got worse. Yeah, you heard me right. Most fruits and vegetables contain a lot of insoluble fibers that my stomach literally can't handle without adverse side effects. I can't eat them in large amounts.

My IBS is genetic. My grandmother has it, and my great-grandparents as well.

My thyroid nodules are caused by poisoned water. My entire childhood I drank water that had been accidentally poisoned for years by our local fire fighters. There's still a lawsuit going on about it.

And my anemia? It's also genetic. Ever heard of thalassemia? It's also called (or at least the type I have) Mediterranean anemia.

Don't you dare say for even a second my health problems are my fault for eating meat, or my relative's fault or ancestor's fault. Do you how utterly insensitive that is? I have an actual physical problem were I have to eat meat to survive. The last thing you should do is spin it around to make it somehow my fault. I get it, you want everyone to be healthy. Do you know how I can be healthy?

By. Eating. Red. Meat.

(PS, you notice literally why I can't consume iron from plants. I need hemeiron, not nonhemeiron. It's in my last post you were responding to.)

Shienvien · August 26, 2016

Diabetes isn't caused by sugar, it's caused by a high-fat diet aka meat/dairy.

Type II diabetes is proven to have strong connotations to both sugar intake and general obesity; we have known that for a long while. Type I is typically genetic; the body simply doesn't produce (enough) insulin.

Fats as such do not cause diabetes, but they can definitely contribute to excess body weight, since they are very high in energy and your average person simply does not spend that much. Overabundance of *anything* is bad. (Even water is poisonous in too high quantities - and not only when breathed in. You can die from drinking several liters of water at once, as some soldiers and people with defunct thirst regulation have unfortunately found out.) You might have overlooked the part of the article you yourself linked which spoke about obesity... If you eat enough to literally make yourself obese in a fairly short of time (as was case with those mice - keep in mind that tests like that often take things to the very, very extreme, and aren't thusly representative of a probable real scenario), then obviously it won't do you any good.

If you have an average-ish metabolism, eat 3 or so times a day, reasonable portions, and will eat a couple of pieces of chicken, meat or fish prepared with little or no additional fat/oil during each of those days, then no, it would not contribute to you getting diabetes. If you eat a kilogram of oil-drenched overprocessed hamburger patties for dinner each day, and generally eat enough to keep packing on weight on a steady pace, then yes, you'll increase the chances of getting something unpleasant by a fair amount. It's all about being reasonable.

(Me? I'm not even close to overweight. More so sitting on the low end of normal weight; I weigh a bit more than I did during my teenage years, but most of that is muscle, as much as I've had more opportunity to move than during school.)

Note: I will not watch any supplied youtube videos - even lower credibility combined with the fact that I'm at work. I also find videos fairly ineffective method of conveying information - "noisy" and very info-scarce.

I also immediately distrust anything with screen-sized info-collecting ad popups which take several tries to dismiss. The food site you linked managed to throw one at me despite adblock...

DuskOfTheStars · August 26, 2016

No, I actually quite like corn. I was born with these texture problems - and I will eat some fruits. I just don't like some vegetables's textures.

Not everyone can eat just plants - some have to eat meat too. That's what I was trying to say. And yes, there probably is at least one medical case of severe allergies to msny plants - there are people with water allergies out there.

And where did I say I had a problem with all plants? I don't see where I did.

I said I had a less severe version of wyv's issues with texture, meaning I don't have as extreme a reaction, and likely not as much foods. It may interest you to learn that only type of meat I'm willing to just eat as meat is light poultry meat, and I will eat a fair few fruits - apples, strawberries, bananas, grapes, Asian pears, and pluots. All sweeter, but yes I will eat fruit. And with vegetables, I eat corn, rice, and peas. I sometimes eat other vegtables, but I don't really like them or outright just dump them in the trash.

Finally, I also have a genetic syndrome. Usher Syndrome. Ot's a recessive syndrome that causes Retnitus Pigmeentosa (basically the rods and comes on your eyes dying off over time) and deafness. I was born with it. It's caused by a mutation in one of several genes, and it comes in several types that have varying severity. Usher's is why I'm made to eat carrots. Apparently someone in charge thinks Vitamin A helps with it, but I'm afraid they got their facts wrong. RP progresses no matter what you eat. Yes, it hs varying speed, but that is caused by genetic factors.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Dusky_Flareon

Arwen17 · August 26, 2016

Arwen17, stop assuming things about people's medical history and personal history.

I tried vegetarianism for one and a half months during my first semester at college. I was really stressed about the change and every time I ate food I ended up getting severe stomach pain from a combination of stress, IBS I didn't know about at the time and nodules in my thyroid I also didn't know about at the time. I literally couldn't eat anything and I trimmed down my diet at every turn to try to figure out why the hell I literally couldn't eat. I lost somewhere around 15 pounds in those three months and by the end of it I was not eating meat of any kind or dairy.

Do you know what happened when I cut meat?

I passed out. It took me two weeks before I woke up face down on the floor in my room. I was thankful I had pretty thick carpet on my floor and hadn't cleaned up my clothes in a while or I probably would have given myself a concussion and knocked my teeth out. I fell asleep everywhere. I didn't have any energy and could only barely stay awake during classes. I had to walk around with someone everywhere because I was worried I couldn't even make it back to my dorm.

And do you know what?

My stomach pain got worse. Yeah, you heard me right. Most fruits and vegetables contain a lot of insoluble fibers that my stomach literally can't handle without adverse side effects. I can't eat them in large amounts.

My IBS is genetic. My grandmother has it, and my great-grandparents as well.

My thyroid nodules are caused by poisoned water. My entire childhood I drank water that had been accidentally poisoned for years by our local fire fighters. There's still a lawsuit going on about it.

And my anemia? It's also genetic. Ever heard of thalassemia? It's also called (or at least the type I have) Mediterranean anemia.

Don't you dare say for even a second my health problems are my fault for eating meat, or my relative's fault or ancestor's fault. Do you how utterly insensitive that is? I have an actual physical problem were I have to eat meat to survive. The last thing you should do is spin it around to make it somehow my fault. I get it, you want everyone to be healthy. Do you know how I can be healthy?

By. Eating. Red. Meat.

(PS, you notice literally why I can't consume iron from plants. I need hemeiron, not nonhemeiron. It's in my last post you were responding to.)

As I explained multiple times in my previous posts, veganism works unless you are having some serious health problems that not allowing your body to process food correctly.

Also, there are specific methods of veganism that many people have used to get their issues under control.

The Rice Diet (no you're not eating just rice, but it is centered around WHITE RICE because its easier to digest)

The Rice Diet is a very boring diet they don't recommend doing forever because its boring, but they have used it to get rid of peoples' issues and get their bodies back into balance, so they can finally start eating all of those other foods that are tougher to digest.

https://www.drmcdougall.com/2013/12/31/walt...-the-rice-diet/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_diet

Thanks to epigenetics, hereditary issues can be managed with diet. http://www.scienceinschool.org/2014/issue28/epigenetics

So far, all I'm finding is things that might be decreasing your ability to absorb non-heme iron. It's stimulate drugs (coffee,tea) and and animal products that inhibit non-heme iron absorption.

Many substances can reduce the amount of non-heme iron we absorb; these substances include tannins in coffee or tea, dairy, phytates (fiber), eggs and some types of chocolate. Calcium can impair the absorption of both non-heme and heme iron. Therefore if a person needs more iron, he or she should avoid these items to improve the amount of iron absorbed.

http://www.irondisorders.org/iron-we-consume/

It seems some thalassemia-people were able to concentrate on iron-rich plant foods and were able to get enough iron:

http://www.thalassemiapatientsandfriends.c...php?topic=230.0

There's also anecdotal posts from thalassemia-people on the internet saying they only eat meat once every 2 months because that's all they need to boost non-heme iron absorption. That's a far cry from eating meat every day and risking heart attacks, etc. You may save yourself from thalassemia, only to be killed by a heart attack later.

Finally, this:

Vitamin C and other organic acids in fruits and vegetables boost the absorption rate of non-heme iron, according to the American Dietetic Association. Adequate vitamin C intake is especially important for vegetarians who do not consume heme iron.

https://www.myfooddiary.com/blog/eating-to-...iron-absorption

If you have a lasting condition, then you're going to have to be more deliberate about the foods you eat (choosing plants high in iron for example), and you're going to have to cut out things that might get in the way (tea, coffee, dairy, etc). You cannot say it doesn't work based on a turbulent period when you were trying to rapidly cut down on all kinds of different foods. I understand you were trying to figure out what was wrong at the time, but that wasn't a balanced diet or a diet with a variety of plant foods. Because of your condition, if you weren't aiming for high-iron plant foods at all times, it is very easy to become deficient, then turn around and blame it on the fact there was no meat.

Arwen17 · August 26, 2016

Type II diabetes is proven to have strong connotations to both sugar intake and general obesity; we have known that for a long while. Type I is typically genetic; the body simply doesn't produce (enough) insulin.

Fats as such do not cause diabetes, but they can definitely contribute to excess body weight, since they are very high in energy and your average person simply does not spend that much. Overabundance of *anything* is bad. (Even water is poisonous in too high quantities - and not only when breathed in. You can die from drinking several liters of water at once, as some soldiers and people with defunct thirst regulation have unfortunately found out.) You might have overlooked the part of the article you yourself linked which spoke about obesity... If you eat enough to literally make yourself obese in a fairly short of time (as was case with those mice - keep in mind that tests like that often take things to the very, very extreme, and aren't thusly representative of a probable real scenario), then obviously it won't do you any good.

If you have an average-ish metabolism, eat 3 or so times a day, reasonable portions, and will eat a couple of pieces of chicken, meat or fish prepared with little or no additional fat/oil during each of those days, then no, it would not contribute to you getting diabetes. If you eat a kilogram of oil-drenched overprocessed hamburger patties for dinner each day, and generally eat enough to keep packing on weight on a steady pace, then yes, you'll increase the chances of getting something unpleasant by a fair amount. It's all about being reasonable.

(Me? I'm not even close to overweight. More so sitting on the low end of normal weight; I weigh a bit more than I did during my teenage years, but most of that is muscle, as much as I've had more opportunity to move than during school.)

Note: I will not watch any supplied youtube videos - even lower credibility combined with the fact that I'm at work. I also find videos fairly ineffective method of conveying information - "noisy" and very info-scarce.

I also immediately distrust anything with screen-sized info-collecting ad popups which take several tries to dismiss. The food site you linked managed to throw one at me despite adblock...

So in other words, you want to believe what you want to believe and have no interest in looking at actual evidence. congrats

My videos are not from random people on the internet. They are PHd doctors presenting the findings of multiple studies.

I agree you shouldn't be eating a high-fat vegan diet or a high-fat meat diet. But no matter how leanly you slice the meat/dairy/eggs, they will ALWAYS have fat. It is simply impossible to be "low fat" when you are eating animal products regularly. Whereas you can be "low fat" on a vegan diet by staying away from oils and processed foods.

And that is us merely discussing diabetes. Since meat still causes everything else: heart disease, stroke, hypertension, arthritis, alzheimer's, etc.

So even if you could prove diabetes isn't caused by high fat diets, (which you can't since it simply isn't true), meat/dairy/eggs still causes a host of other issues.

Arwen17 · August 26, 2016

No, I actually quite like corn. I was born with these texture problems - and I will eat some fruits. I just don't like some vegetables's textures.

Not everyone can eat just plants - some have to eat meat too. That's what I was trying to say. And yes, there probably is at least one medical case of severe allergies to msny plants - there are people with water allergies out there.

And where did I say I had a problem with all plants? I don't see where I did.

I said I had a less severe version of wyv's issues with texture, meaning I don't have as extreme a reaction, and likely not as much foods. It may interest you to learn that only type of meat I'm willing to just eat as meat is light poultry meat, and I will eat a fair few fruits - apples, strawberries, bananas, grapes, Asian pears, and pluots. All sweeter, but yes I will eat fruit. And with vegetables, I eat corn, rice, and peas. I sometimes eat other vegtables, but I don't really like them or outright just dump them in the trash.

Finally, I also have a genetic syndrome. Usher Syndrome. Ot's a recessive syndrome that causes Retnitus Pigmeentosa (basically the rods and comes on your eyes dying off over time) and deafness. I was born with it. It's caused by a mutation in one of several genes, and it comes in several types that have varying severity. Usher's is why I'm made to eat carrots. Apparently someone in charge thinks Vitamin A helps with it, but I'm afraid they got their facts wrong. RP progresses no matter what you eat. Yes, it hs varying speed, but that is caused by genetic factors.

Can't you eat something other than carrots? Tons of veggies are high in vitamin A, not just carrots.

Although personally carrots are one of my favorite veggies of all time.

Sweet potatoes actually have more vitamin A than even carrots.

https://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles...f-vitamin-A.php

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=106

I'd like to meet the person who is allergic to enough plants all at once that they can't eat vegan.

Around 2,000 plant species are cultivated for food. Show me the person who is allergic to so many things.

Not liking veggies is not the same thing as being allergic to them or unable to eat them.

There's a lot of websites with inventive ideas on how to get yourself to like more veggies.

https://www.google.com/#q=how+to+like+veggies

One of my favorites is the idea of a "gateway veggie" lol. I did this when I was going vegan. I originally didn't like many veggies because I was a junk food addict and that's what I'd always eaten growing up. But I started with veggies I KNEW I liked: potatoes, carrots, green beans. And just ate those a lot at first. Then I kept trying different veggies. Do you know I had actually never tried asparagus before I went vegan? There were so many veggies I had never even tried because I was in love with cheese pizza and ate it literally every day.

I learned that I LOVED asparagus from the first bite. Other veggies like broccoli I had to keep working on. Basically, I would eat a little bit of broccoli occasionally, even tho I wasn't crazy about it. And eventually....eventually it didn't taste so bad. And eventually it started to taste better and better. Now I LOVE broccoli. But I used to HATE it.

You have to change your tastebuds over time. Your tastebuds are not set in stone. What your tastebuds like is what you habitually eat. Your habits determine what tastes good. If you were raised in Japan on rice and veggies, they would taste good to you out of habit.

I still HATE celery. I'm still working on that veggie and there has been some progress. But really if you forced me to live on celery, eventually I would like it because my tastebuds would adjust. I know that. But because there's so many other veggies I can eat now, I don't really care to make the effort to train myself to like celery.

Moral of the story:

1. Keep trying veggies. You might find some you like immediately.

2. Keep working on veggies that you think are kinda "meh". These are the best veggies you can learn to love over time.

3. Keep tasting even the veggies you hate. Because you will hate them less over time, even if you never completely love them either. Mine is celery and sweet potatoes.

4. Remember that the core of the HCLF vegan diet is high-carb foods: potatoes, rice, bananas, bread, pasta, grains, etc. You need to eat some veggies and fruit daily, but you're not expected to eat a tub of it. The bulk of your diet should be high-carb.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Arwen17

pudding · August 26, 2016

Arwen, are you my nutritionist? Are you my gastroenterologist? No?

Because otherwise you don't know how my body works. You're making assumptions about my health based on what a healthy majority can do, or some other person. If I JUST had thalassemia maybe your documents would help me. If I JUST had hypothyroidism maybe your documents would help me. If I JUST had IBS maybe your documents would help me. My health problems are literally exclusive to me. The individual nuances of how my body functions are based on who I am as a person and are unique in the same way my DNA is unique.

As it is right now, the only thing that can help me is the diet I am prescribed to which is not vegan or vegetarian.

When I went on my diet, I had careful paperwork outlining what I should be eating based on my anemia. My gastroenterologist knew exactly what my other health problems were and gave me a list of foods to help me cut back certain food groups without possibly jeopardizing my overall health by making me nutrient deficient in some areas. I didn't just leap into abandoning several food groups without thought. I did it with careful medical instructions.

You aren't convincing me, nor will you ever. I can't be vegan or vegetarian and no 'sources' you pull up will change how my body functions. You need accept that some people literally can't conform to your diet and you need to stop looking down on people when they tell you why they can't, or even don't want to be vegan. People don't need to have an excuse for why they can't cut out on meat.

Accept that. I know you're trying to be helpful but it can feel like bullying.

Arwen17 · August 26, 2016

Arwen, are you my nutritionist? Are you my gastroenterologist? No?

Because otherwise you don't know how my body works. You're making assumptions about my health based on what a healthy majority can do, or some other person. If I JUST had thalassemia maybe your documents would help me. If I JUST had hypothyroidism maybe your documents would help me. If I JUST had IBS maybe your documents would help me. My health problems are literally exclusive to me. The individual nuances of how my body functions are based on who I am as a person and are unique in the same way my DNA is unique.

As it is right now, the only thing that can help me is the diet I am prescribed to which is not vegan or vegetarian.

When I went on my diet, I had careful paperwork outlining what I should be eating based on my anemia. My gastroenterologist knew exactly what my other health problems were and gave me a list of foods to help me cut back certain food groups without possibly jeopardizing my overall health by making me nutrient deficient in some areas. I didn't just leap into abandoning several food groups without thought. I did it with careful medical instructions.

You aren't convincing me, nor will you ever. I can't be vegan or vegetarian and no 'sources' you pull up will change how my body functions. You need accept that some people literally can't conform to your diet and you need to stop looking down on people when they tell you why they can't, or even don't want to be vegan. People don't need to have an excuse for why they can't cut out on meat.

Accept that. I know you're trying to be helpful but it can feel like bullying.

I never said I was looking down on anyone. That's an assumption you are making about me.

Have I not said over and over again that there are some people who cannot conform to this diet because they have major health issues?

"As I explained multiple times in my previous posts, veganism works unless you are having some serious health problems that not allowing your body to process food correctly."

Then I offer suggestions (like the rice diet) that might help get the body on track so that a normal vegan diet can start working for them, but no I'm not a nutritionist. However, the other problem is that most nutritionists are not familiar with how vegan diets work. They are taught and raised in a meat-eating school of thought. They would never even bother to look up research associated with plant-based eating, unless they had a personal interest in it. If you said to them, "I want to be vegan, even with my conditions. How can I achieve this?" They would look at you blankly and claim they can't advise on such matters because that isn't their specialty area of study. Or they would advise completely against it....because they know so little about it. Remember their goal is to have you as a patient and make money off you. They need you on a plan they understand and can advise. They aren't there to research alternative options for you. They aren't going to point you to another nutritionist who specializes in vegan diets and might be able to advise you on what to do. They would lose money if they gave their patients away to other people. This is a subset issue of a link I posted earlier:

Why don't doctors recommend veganism:

Edited August 26, 2016 by Arwen17

Obscure_Trash · August 26, 2016

haha thanks!

I'm not trying to skirt around the issue.

My point is they *could* maintain a healthy vegan lifestyle, but they've got something else going on that's stopping them. My only argument is everyone could maintain it, if they really, really, really wanted to and they weren't have some seriously c***y health problems that could be throwing their body out of wack. Say they drink themselves to death every night. Well, no matter how perfect the vegan diet is, it's not going to be able to combat a behavior like that.

The usual reasons people fail is they're not eating enough food (because you have to eat a lot more on a vegan diet compared to a meat diet), they're not eating enough variety of foods, they're eating a processed-food-vegan-diet instead of HCLF whole--foods diet or they miss their old foods too much. So they give up and claim it just didn't work for them.

HCLF vegan diet says high-carb foods are king. Veggies are secondary. So go to town on potatoes, rice, bananas, bread, pasta, etc.

You're still skirting the issue, though. We're not talking about alcoholics (whose addition isn't something we should just throw around lightly...) or people who simply don't want to go vegggie. We're talking about people who literally cannot give up meat for their health. As much as you don't want to believe that exists, it does. As evidenced by several users on this thread.

The reason we keep harping on it is:

I view the common-folk as just weak and ignorant, not evil.

Which is quite insulting, to say the least.

I'm not ignorant about factory farming, but I don't believe that me going veggie is going to solve that issue. It also does nothing to address conditions of migrant workers. You may have eliminated one bad in your life, but there are still several more out there you're supporting merely by existing. Fact is, there is no way to eat guilt free under a capitalistic system, which naturally values money over all life.

Not wanting to give up meat also isn't weak. It's just that person's choice, just like giving up meat was yours. I mean, by your logic, I could argue the other way around - that going veggie is weak. Going veggie was easy for my sister because she's never cared for meat prep and the closer she got to living independently, the more propaganda-PETA films she watched, and it quickly got to a point where it was hard to eat meat. But if she hadn't been so weak about simple food prep, she could have continued to eat meat. She could have found good, local farmers who often treat their livestock humanely and bought meat from them.

See? It's a completely ridiculous argument. What food she eats has nothing to do with the strength of my sister. It's simply a choice she made. Just as I choose to keep meat in my diet as it's a good way to beef up dishes and get me protein.

So if you just accepted that we're all allowed our own dietary choices, people would most likely stop arguing from this view point of "I literally cannot eat meat".

My videos are not from random people on the internet. They are PHd doctors presenting the findings of multiple studies.

Andrew Wakefield, the man who fraudulently reported that vaccines cause autism, studied medicine at "St Mary's Hospital Medical School (now Imperial College School of Medicine), fully qualifying in 1981. Wakefield became a fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons in 1985." (wiki)

I'm trying to remember his name, but there's a well-studied geologic scientist (I'm pretty sure he's got a PhD) who is now a climate change denier. He still presents at conferences like GSA and AGU. He was given time to speak about his denial at our school. He's completely wrong and using bad data-presenting techniques (such as not even showing us scales) but that doesn't negate the degrees he's earned.

Arwen17 · August 26, 2016

You're still skirting the issue, though. We're not talking about alcoholics (whose addition isn't something we should just throw around lightly...) or people who simply don't want to go vegggie. We're talking about people who literally cannot give up meat for their health. As much as you don't want to believe that exists, it does. As evidenced by several users on this thread.

The reason we keep harping on it is:

Which is quite insulting, to say the least.

I'm not ignorant about factory farming, but I don't believe that me going veggie is going to solve that issue. It also does nothing to address conditions of migrant workers. You may have eliminated one bad in your life, but there are still several more out there you're supporting merely by existing. Fact is, there is no way to eat guilt free under a capitalistic system, which naturally values money over all life.

Not wanting to give up meat also isn't weak. It's just that person's choice, just like giving up meat was yours. I mean, by your logic, I could argue the other way around - that going veggie is weak. Going veggie was easy for my sister because she's never cared for meat prep and the closer she got to living independently, the more propaganda-PETA films she watched, and it quickly got to a point where it was hard to eat meat. But if she hadn't been so weak about simple food prep, she could have continued to eat meat. She could have found good, local farmers who often treat their livestock humanely and bought meat from them.

See? It's a completely ridiculous argument. What food she eats has nothing to do with the strength of my sister. It's simply a choice she made. Just as I choose to keep meat in my diet as it's a good way to beef up dishes and get me protein.

So if you just accepted that we're all allowed our own dietary choices, people would most likely stop arguing from this view point of "I literally cannot eat meat".

Andrew Wakefield, the man who fraudulently reported that vaccines cause autism, studied medicine at "St Mary's Hospital Medical School (now Imperial College School of Medicine), fully qualifying in 1981. Wakefield became a fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons in 1985." (wiki)

I'm trying to remember his name, but there's a well-studied geologic scientist (I'm pretty sure he's got a PhD) who is now a climate change denier. He still presents at conferences like GSA and AGU. He was given time to speak about his denial at our school. He's completely wrong and using bad data-presenting techniques (such as not even showing us scales) but that doesn't negate the degrees he's earned.

I offer scientific studies since they add weight to the argument, but they aren't the main reason I went vegan.

The main reason was living Japan, observing first-hand a population that was thin and healthy, observing what they ate and how they lived. Then I came back home to USA where 70% or more of the population is overweight and we are dropping like flies via diseases that are almost nonexistent in places like Japan. The answer was obvious.

It's common sense that an animal-heavy diet is not the answer. If you don't believe that, then please go visit Loma Linda, California. Please go visit Japan. And I've had many Japanese friends visit America and you know what happens? They start getting fat. Many have come up and asked me, "why do americans eat like this? can't they see its unhealthy?"

I once caught my Japanese teacher pulling out a big tub of rice for lunch and so I asked her if she still ate her original diet from home all the time, even tho she's been living in the states for longer than I've been alive. She said yes because she wanted to stay healthy. (This was two years before I went vegan. I knew nothing about nutrition then. I was simply curious and surprised she was going to the trouble to eat her native food.)

When I've traveled around in various countries, I had foreigners in hostels asking me similar questions, "Why are Americans so weak? How come they can't control themselves and eat healthy?" I have to explain to them that the entire system is setup against Americans knowing the truth because of medical-big-pharma-and-food companies paying the gov't off to write certain nutrition recommendations and teach certain things to health professionals in schools.

It's pretty sad when around the world, they ask people what do you think of when you think of America and the first thing they often say is "fat and unhealthy". "Freedom" gets mentioned a lot too, but they're disappointed in how we've used that freedom. They see us as loud and selfish.

Is it insulting to call an alcoholic a drunk? Maybe it is, depending on your tone of voice. But it's also the truth.

I"m not trying to solve factory-farming or another other issue, except human health. From the very beginning I have been arguing for human health, not any of the other issues.

I'm not arguing for guilt or animals or anything other than human health.

Unlike so many other issues: vaccines, autism, climate change, veganism is clear-cut. Those other issues take years to study to see if changes are occurring.

But with veganism, you can take two genetically identical twins: put one of them on a meat diet, and one of them on a vegan diet, and within two weeks or less you will see bloodtest differences.

I have offered oceans of evidence to every argument that has been presented, but all I hear is people saying "I don't want to watch the video or read the article or believe Japanese people are healthier than us. Since I don't want to examine the evidence, I'll just keep believing meat is good for me."

I am not arguing about meat being a personal choice. I am arguing it is a personal choice that will end in health failure.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Arwen17

Kestra15 · August 26, 2016

I offer scientific studies since they add weight to the argument, but they aren't the main reason I went vegan.

And that is us merely discussing diabetes. Since meat still causes everything else: heart disease, stroke, hypertension, arthritis, alzheimer's, etc.

So even if you could prove diabetes isn't caused by high fat diets, (which you can't since it simply isn't true), meat/dairy/eggs still causes a host of other issues.

Unlike so many other issues: vaccines, autism, climate change, veganism is clear-cut. Those other issues take years to study to see if changes are occurring. But with veganism, you can take two genetically identical twins: put one of them on a meat diet, and one of them on a vegan diet, and within two weeks or less you will see bloodtest differences.

Actually, look up at my last post and I think you'll find I've already given you something like eight or nine reasons for diabetes, not one of which is directly related to eating meat and of which high-fat diets is a component factor but not itself the defining factor.

And meat does not cause strokes. How do I know? Because my research is on stroke, and at no point does it come up in any of the literature I've reviewed. And I have read all the papers that talk about stroke risk factors. I mean all of them. There were hundreds. And the main reason for stroke is actually hypertension, of which there are multiple causes from lifestyle and from other sources. Within lifestyle it is an unhealthy diet that is a contributing factor - not directly a meat-inclusive diet, but any diet with high volumes of fat. Combined with obesity, low physical activity, smoking, alcohol and stress, you have a recipe for hypertension which then leads to other diseases. So to say meat => stroke shows just how poorly a person understands risk factors, stroke, and medicine in general.

Vaccines are very clear-cut. If you receive a vaccine, you are less likely to catch the active disease and/or you are in a better state to fight it off. We know this through over a century of research, scientific process, medical understanding and refining of techniques, the near-eradication of once-common diseases, and in recent years the increasing outbreaks of such diseases that directly correlate to areas/populations that have not taken the vaccine. That is what scientific method is about. It is through scientific studies - from lab tests to lit reviews to patient focus groups to case studies to randomised control trials and everything in between - that I can say with confidence that vaccines work.

You are not offering scientific studies. You are offering blog posts and Youtube clips and websites run by people with little to no scientific grounding, who make assumptions almost entirely on false science, anecdotal evidence, and a whole lot of fairy dust. You are trying to pass off your limited experience, almost-nonexistential medical knowledge and some random internet ramblings as "science" which, if anything, I find humorous.

But you are right. Take two twins, force them to have either an omnivorous diet or a vegan diet, and the twin on the vegan diet will more often than not be admitted for malnutrition and the parents investigated to a greater or lesser degree, and ultimately required to have regular meetings with healthcare professionals and allied health professionals as to how to properly care for their baby and make sure they don't kill it.

Also, little point: alcoholics don't have to be drunk to be alcoholic. An alcoholic is someone who relies/misuses alcohol, not someone who is permanently drunk. And feel free to walk up to some of the alcohol misusers I've dealt with and tell them that they're drunk; I'll keep a bedspace free to patch you up afterwards. Because it is insulting to them, and no amount of telling them "but it's the truth!" will stop them from pointing out in very blunt, knuckle-y terms that they disagree.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Kestra15

Lady_Lunevis · August 26, 2016

i don't know where you got this idea that the japanese are holier-than-thou but can you stop, that's really gross lmao

there are multiple people who have said that they respect veganism/vegetarianism but simply cannot adapt to a diet like that due to medical conditions. you repeatedly pushing videos and saying that if they just tried, it would magically be cured isn't going to help, honestly. there are special cases and what someone eats and their diet is a personal matter. what may work for the majority doesn't guarantee a 100% success rate.

demonicvampiregirl · August 27, 2016

I"m not trying to solve factory-farming or another other issue, except human health. From the very beginning I have been arguing for human health, not any of the other issues.

I'm not arguing for guilt or animals or anything other than human health.

Unlike so many other issues: vaccines, autism, climate change, veganism is clear-cut. Those other issues take years to study to see if changes are occurring.

But with veganism, you can take two genetically identical twins: put one of them on a meat diet, and one of them on a vegan diet, and within two weeks or less you will see bloodtest differences.

I have offered oceans of evidence to every argument that has been presented, but all I hear is people saying "I don't want to watch the video or read the article or believe Japanese people are healthier than us. Since I don't want to examine the evidence, I'll just keep believing meat is good for me."

I am not arguing about meat being a personal choice. I am arguing it is a personal choice that will end in health failure.

I don't see how meat will automatically end in health failure.

Besides that, I refuse to go vegan simply because someone says it works for them and the fact that other people live like that.

I make the choice to eat meat. Why? Because I like it, to me it tastes good.

The one thing I absolutely hate about vegetarianism and veganism is the people who think it is the ONLY acceptable life style. You make the choice to eat the way you do. If it works for you, fine happy for you, but do not condemn the way I eat, talk down to me and act like I'm killing myself because your diet works for you and I choose to use a diet that works for me. (Do note this isn't a directed AT you.)

Do I want to lose weight and get into better shape? Of course, however that does not mean I will be cutting out any and all meats because it's going to end in health failure. Anything, any type of diet can end with health failure. It's your body and it can start doing that at any time, good diet or not.

Obscure_Trash · August 27, 2016

Is it insulting to call an alcoholic a drunk? Maybe it is, depending on your tone of voice. But it's also the truth.

I said nothing about anything being insulting. I was bringing up that alcoholism is a serious addiction and disease, and it is not something we should bring up lightly, which I kind of felt like you were doing by bringing it up in comparison to... eating meat.

Also I'm confused...

I'm not arguing for guilt or animals or anything other than human health.

I've never viewed anyone as evil....maybe just the people who are at the very top of the factory farm, medical, and pharma industries. Because they're getting super-rich on something they know is very, very wrong.

The Bible teaches God did not create animals for us to eat.

I'm a Seventh Day Adventist, who are protestant christians who believe only in the Bible, and the denomination has been preaching veggie-based diets since it first started 150 years ago. Long before modern medicine or vegan hippies came along. A young woman had a vision from God about plant-based diets and what people should really be eating.

You're totally allowed to have more than one reason for believing something, but you haven't just been arguing for human health. And there is already a very good post in this thread about how meat doesn't lead to diabetes. So let's look at your other health reasons:

I'm vegan because it is the only diet that doesn't lead to cancer, diabetes, heart disease, arthritis, and a host of other problems.

This simply isn't true and ignores a lot of other risk factors. It also ignores that vegans can and do experience all of these health issues as well...

For example, one study I found talked about vegetarians who ate healthier than non-vegetarians and found a link with several of the diseases you mentioned. However, I found the results of the study very wishy-washy, as they put these results down to lack of meat in the diet, rather than the fact that the vegetarians they studied ate overall more healthy than the nonvegs. But not all veggies eat healthy (my sister being a prime example as she "doesn't like vegetables").

Another study talked about how nut consumption led to a lower risk of ischemia and therefore found a veggie diet healthier than a nonveg, only by pure fact that they found that veggies ate more nuts overall than nonvegs. However, that isn't to say that a veggie diet is healthier, as nonvegs totally can and do eat nuts. It's not like nuts are something only veggies eat. It's just that, on average, veggies eat more than nonvegs.

Yet another study said that vegetarian diets could be healthy, then said that this could lead to lower rates of ischemia, but not once did they talk about healthy diets that included any meat.

A further study did not find a strong correlation with reduced risks for cancer, stating: "Data are only fair to poor that risks of breast cancer, diverticular disease of the colon, colonic cancer, calcium kidney stones, osteoporosis, dental erosion, and dental caries are lower among vegetarians. Reduced risks for chronic degenerative diseases can also be achieved by manipulations of omnivorous diets and lifestyles."

Another study talked about how increasing plants in your diet did have many health benefits, but did not conclude that you had to cut out meat, just that higher health was linked to eating more plants.

One study actually concluded with: "The reduced mortality from cancer among those not eating meat is not explained by lifestyle related risk factors, which have a low prevalence among vegetarians. No firm conclusion can be made about deaths from ischaemic heart disease. These data do not justify advice to exclude meat from the diet since there are several attributes of a vegetarian diet apart from not eating meat which might reduce the risk."

The next study I found actually compared the health of the diet, not just meat vs. non-meat and found: "Cohort studies of vegetarians have shown a moderate reduction in mortality from IHD but little difference in other major causes of death or all-cause mortality in comparison with health-conscious non-vegetarians from the same population. Studies of cancer have not shown clear differences in cancer rates between vegetarians and non-vegetarians. More data are needed, particularly on the health of vegans and on the possible impacts on health of low intakes of long-chain n−3 fatty acids and vitamin B12. Overall, the data suggest that the health of Western vegetarians is good and similar to that of comparable non-vegetarians."

Honestly, all the studies I found had similar results. What they are really talking about is healthier diets. None of them could prove a specific link between meat and that disease. Even for heart disease, which we have long associated with high (red) meat intake as a risk factor, I couldn't find a study that explained why this was or that looked at other similarities in lifestyle.

One study also pointed out the health benefits of red meat.

Meat is frequently associated with a “negative” health image due to its “high” fat content and in the case of red meat is seen as a cancer-promoting food. Therefore, a low meat intake, especially red meat is recommended to avoid the risk of cancer, obesity and metabolic syndrome. However, this discussion overlooks the fact, that meat is an important source for some of micronutrients such as iron, selenium, vitamins A, B12 and folic acid. These micronutrients are either not present in plant derived food or have poor bioavailability. In addition, meat as a protein rich and carbohydrate “low” product contributes to a low glycemic index which is assumed to be “beneficial” with respect to overweight, the development of diabetes and cancer (insulin resistance hypothesis). Taken together meat is an important nutrient for human health and development. As an essential part of a mixed diet, meat ensures adequate delivery of essential micronutrients and amino acids and is involved in regulatory processes of energy metabolism.

[...]

Meat as a component of a mixed and healthy diet contains important and essential micronutrients. The adequate intake ensures a normal function of the immune system, the mucous membranes and the general metabolism of substrates.

And another study pointed out what I was saying earlier in terms of other risk factors.

Diet is one of the modifiable risk factors for CVD, which includes coronary heart disease (CHD), stroke and myocardial infarction (MI) (Williamson, Foster, Stanner, & Buttriss, 2005). Red meat has been associated with an increased risk of CVD by several studies (Fraser, 1999, Kelemen et al., 2005 and Kontogianni et al., 2008) Table 2 shows the results of some of these studies as well as their potential methodological limitations. Generally there has been no consistent use of any type of study design in the investigation of the relationship between meat consumption and CVD risk. Studies to date have used case–control, cross-sectional and cohort studies and the outcomes examined are not consistent, making it difficult to compare their findings. In one instance, Hu et al. (1999a) found a significant positive association between servings of red meat and the risk of CHD when age was adjusted for, but this effect became non-significant after controlling for age, BMI, smoking, alcohol, physical activity, energy intake and family history of CHD in the multivariate analysis (RR 1.09, (C.I. 0.9–1.3), p = 0.35). Another study reported a significant association with beef consumption (⩾3 servings/wk) and the risk of fatal CHD; however this association was observed only in men (Fraser, 1999). Kelemen et al. (2005) found that red meat was associated with an increased risk of mortality from CHD, but their classification of red meat included some processed meats. Similar inconsistencies have been observed in other studies ( Hu et al., 1999a and Steffen et al., 2005), as there is no universal agreement of which meats can be classed as processed or red ( Chao et al., 2005 and WCRF, 2007).

[...]

In the present review, studies investigating associations between red meat consumption and outcomes of health and disease were reviewed. Within studies which implicate red meat in the development of CVD and colon cancer, a number of methodological limitations were found; they do not assess the degree of fat-trimming or method of cooking used and their method of assessing meat intake is potentially prone to error or bias. Most notably, not all studies were consistent in how they measured meat consumption, with many including processed meat as red meat in their analysis and fewer studies examining lean red meat per se. Questions have recently been raised over the scientific basis for red meat being labelled a convincing cause of colon cancer in the recent WCRF report, as well as the basis for the daily recommended intake being lowered to 71 g/d. Nevertheless, it is likely that maintaining intakes at or below the current advised level, whilst reducing intakes of processed meat and meat cooked at very high temperatures will ensure a balance is reached where the potential risk of colon cancer is reduced and the beneficial effects of consuming red meat are achieved.

This review of the risks and benefits associated with red meat consumption has shown that consuming moderate amounts of lean red meat, as part of a balanced diet, valuably contributes to intakes of essential nutrients and possibly to intakes of LCn−3 PUFA and CLA, but its contribution to risk of either CVD or colon cancer warrants further research through larger controlled prospective studies before it can be definitively implicated as having a causative role in these diseases.

Fact is, there is not sufficient evidence to show that a vegan diet 100% always leads to a healthier life with less health risks. If you choose to follow the diet for health reasons and have seen a benefit in your own life, that's great. But it's not the only way to live.

And besides that, why is it your place to tell people how to eat? My life, my choice.

Edited August 27, 2016 by SockPuppet Strangler

Nectaris · August 27, 2016

Quite bluntly I could care less if it is healthier or not. Veganism, and even vegetarianism to a lesser extent, is so limiting I would find that the increased health is NOT worth the cost. What worth is living if you can't have 9/10ths of what you like? If there was anything that ever FORCED me to be vegan I am honestly not sure I could go on living.

Maybe this makes me "weak" in your eyes, but I will be honest in that I don't care.

Rosedamai · August 27, 2016

I'm vegan because it is the only diet that doesn't lead to cancer, diabetes, heart disease, arthritis, and a host of other problems.

Hi coming from a country where Buddhist monks don't eat meat, they do get tons of health problems...

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