Vegetarianism/ Veganism

Gsea · July 24, 2016

Lmao a few years ago when I was a Dumb Ignorant Child TM (I must have been like 13?? I'm 18 now) I posted in this thread basically bashing vegetarians and saying that "you need meat and dairy to survive!!! stupid herbivores!!" and oh how the tables have turned. I have been dairy free for a year (except for a brief period in the winter when I went back to eating dairy and all hell broke loose on my skin and I remembered why I'd gone dairy free in the first place) and I rarely eat meat. The only meats I eat are chicken and salmon but I don't eat them often and could easily give them up and probably will when I start college in a month.

I actually would like to go fully vegan one day but I'm not sure how easy that will be in college since I'm already stressed enough about eating healthy as a broke college kid surrounded by crappy dining hall food and fast food restaurants I don't even like, with limited access to a kitchen/grocery stores.. so yeah I'm content being a dairy-free almost-vegetarian. If I went vegan I'd still be able to eat eggs guilt-free because I have several family-friends with pet chickens (I used to have 9 pet hens before our community board made us get rid of them) who could provide me with endless eggs, free-range, cruelty-free, right from their backyard. I miss my hens.

I feel like vegetarianism/veganism is very trendy these days but I'm super okay with that! I don't care if it's "just another fitness fad" because it's a lot better than some of the stupid diet trends of the past. It's good for you and it's good for the animals and it's good for the planet, it's just good idk

Aleoleo · August 25, 2016

I never noticed this thread before. I've been vegeterian for the last 17 years (I'm 35). See, one can be vegetarian and old, and still healthy. My husband has been vegetarian for, uh, wow, 31 years now. We have 5 kids who never ate meat at all. ^^

We've both gone dairy free for the last 4 years or so, although the kids still get cheese, yogurts and such. And we all eat eggs (from my step-mother's hens ), although mostly when I bake cakes (we're just not really fond of the taste of cooked eggs as such).

I tried a vegan raw food diet 2 years ago and had to stop FAST because I was loosing weight (a lot) when I had no weight to spare to begin with. I'm not saying such a diet is bad, but I, myself, apparently need to eat yummy cooked meals if I want to survive.

I find astonishing (no judging here! just plain surprise ^^) how people can start eating meat again after being vegetarien for several years. I know a few who did, I know I couldn't. I started for ethical reasons (inhumane treatment of livestock and so on) and for a while I sometimes had "meat cravings"; but now, I find even the smell of cooked meat disgusting. The thought of eating something dead... ewww.

In conclusion,
if you think we're going to be running around in heaven killing chickens for our food, you're out of your mind.

...also, this made me laugh. (but I agree)

RWyvern · August 25, 2016

Ooh boy, this subject.

I've never felt so indesicive over a subject before to the point I could scream.

Is it alright for me to say that I have a bias against veganism in particular? I don't hate people just for living that lifestyle, and one of my own sisters has made the leap! but during my research attempts to find a median between carnivores and vegans (I always try to have as neutral an outlook on things) I have been exposed to so much to the point I can't even begin to trust my own opinions.

It's when it's shoved in my face that eating meat is eeeeeevil and look at all these poor animals suffering and health reasons and ~religious~ reasons (I'm an agnostic atheist) that I truly dislike vegetarianism and veganism. Allow me to elaborate on this point.

I legitimately feel evil through and through now when I consume animal products. I love animals so much, I will avoid hurting an insect, I cuddle chickens, I squee over cattle in the pasture, y'know, I love animals. And then some of the animals I love I eat without apparent second thought. Evil! It's so evil! according to some.

BUT, if i had no more access to meats at stores, I'm the kind of person who would hunt my own food. Not only do I like the tastes of animal products, I struggle with a lot of meat replacements. Tofu. Beans. Soy. So on and so forth. I have textural and flavour issues. I have no trouble with breads and animal products. Even water makes me gag whether it's flavoured or not, so I instead drink milk. The only comfort I can find in my choice now is that I'm a naturally omnivorous being and I respect every animal that gives its life.

I believe now that I'm ignorant, cruel, don't try hard enough, that the switch is actually pretty easy if I really love animals that much, etc. Maybe I can live a life on mostly supplements. But realistically for me, it's not possible (i think?). And I feel so torn over this subject that I question myself to tears with no conclusive answer.

I guess I'm envious of the ones who can make the transition with no loss.

Edited August 25, 2016 by rampaging wyvern

Arwen17 · August 25, 2016

Ooh boy, this subject.

I've never felt so indesicive over a subject before to the point I could scream.

Is it alright for me to say that I have a bias against veganism in particular? I don't hate people just for living that lifestyle, and one of my own sisters has made the leap! but during my research attempts to find a median between carnivores and vegans (I always try to have as neutral an outlook on things) I have been exposed to so much to the point I can't even begin to trust my own opinions.

It's when it's shoved in my face that eating meat is eeeeeevil and look at all these poor animals suffering and health reasons and ~religious~ reasons (I'm an agnostic atheist) that I truly dislike vegetarianism and veganism. Allow me to elaborate on this point.

I legitimately feel evil through and through now when I consume animal products. I love animals so much, I will avoid hurting an insect, I cuddle chickens, I squee over cattle in the pasture, y'know, I love animals. And then some of the animals I love I eat without apparent second thought. Evil! It's so evil! according to some.

BUT, if i had no more access to meats at stores, I'm the kind of person who would hunt my own food. Not only do I like the tastes of animal products, I struggle with a lot of meat replacements. Tofu. Beans. Soy. So on and so forth. I have textural and flavour issues. I have no trouble with breads and animal products. Even water makes me gag whether it's flavoured or not, so I instead drink milk. The only comfort I can find in my choice now is that I'm a naturally omnivorous being and I respect every animal that gives its life.

I believe now that I'm ignorant, cruel, don't try hard enough, that the switch is actually pretty easy if I really love animals that much, etc. Maybe I can live a life on mostly supplements. But realistically for me, it's not possible (i think?). And I feel so torn over this subject that I question myself to tears with no conclusive answer.

I guess I'm envious of the ones who can make the transition with no loss.

I've never viewed anyone as evil....maybe just the people who are at the very top of the factory farm, medical, and pharma industries. Because they're getting super-rich on something they know is very, very wrong. Kinda like the people at the top of the tobacco companies are evil and only put a warning label on their products because the gov't forces them to.

I view the common-folk as just weak and ignorant, not evil. I know the deck is already stacked against them by the meat/dairy industry. For example, eating healthy in Japan is A LOT easier because that entire society cares about health. Unlike most of American society. They couldn't care less and only want to continue eating the worst foods because they're addicted.

You're not going to get rid of meat overnight. You should wean yourself off of it slowly. I only took 6 months, but its not a race. Go at the speed you're capable of. First, I stopped eating beef/pork, then later on chicken, then finally fish. I just slowly scaled back. Eggs, Milk went away fast. Cheese took the longest because I was a cheesaholic. Cheese was the only thing I doubted whether I could overcome or not, but one day the desire for it truly faded.

You're not going to change your tastebuds overnight, but they do change. And the "desire" for it eventually fades completely. Now, the smell/sight of dairy, eggs, meat is really disgusting because I envision what it does inside my body: growing cancer, clogging up arteries. There's nothing worse than cheese. It's a giant tub of artery-clogging lard. It might as well be animal-snot you're eating.

I don't even eat veggie burgers or soy milk anymore. I ate those for about 2 years because they were great "transition" foods to deal with any leftover cravings. But I've been whole-foods HCLF vegan for the past year. No more processed crap, even if it is vegan.

Always watch more vegan videos on health or animals. Read books too. These will give you motivation. To this day, I still rewatch stuff to remind myself why this is so important. I don't ever want to forget and return to being ignorant.

Never go hungry as a vegan. Eat lots of veggies, fruit, potatoes, rice, etc to your heart's desire. If you're not hungry, it's easier to not crave animal products. And if you're just dying for a burger, get that veggie burger out and dress it up with lots of ketchup etc. Then you can pretend its a real burger.

You may fall off the wagon several times. But the point is to never give up. Because to give up on your own health, the animals, or planet's well-being is DEATH.

It's the same thing that motivates smokers and alcoholics to stop. --> "This will kill me if I don't stop."

I don't take any supplements. I live on the food I listed above: fresh fruit, frozen veggies, rice, potatoes, beans. There's no reason to buy anything special, unless you just want it. HCLF vegan diets are cheap and easy. It's only complicated if you want to make it complicated.

B12 might be the only thing extra you need, but it takes a long time to become deficient in B12, takes like 3 years of hardcore veganism. You still don't have to buy supplements because foods like fortified plant milks and nutritional yeast have B12.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Arwen17

pudding · August 25, 2016

I am not, nor could I ever be a vegetarian or vegan.

A couple things first:

1) I admire people who are vegetarian or vegan for their beliefs because it can take a lot of effort to change your diet. I had to avoid soy and dairy for about two years due to medical reasons and it was extremely difficult. I admire vegetarians and vegans in the same way I admire anyone who sticks to any kind of diet because its hard work having to review all of your food intake to see if it contains something you are trying to avoid.

2) I am sympathetic towards issues in our food industry and the way we treat animals. I have seen videos, studied materials and looked over the issues affecting chickens, cows and pigs (along with some other animals) and the way they are treated before they are killed. I'm not ignorant on this subject.

3) Please stop lumping bees in with animals who are suffering for the food industry. By refusing to eat honey, you are actually contributing to killing bees faster. Honey bee farmers have fields very close to their honey boxes that are safe for bees and help reduce the risks of them being exposed to things like diseases or predators. If you don't buy honey, their profits decrease and they are forced to export their bees to farms to help pollinate the plants. This causes the number of bees that die to go up as they are in much more danger now. (PS, more insects are killed for products like sugar and fruits. If you are vegan and do not eat honey, can you tell me your personal reasons for drawing the line at honey? I'm honestly curious and no one has answered this for me yet/Mostly because I don't know anybody who is vegan to ask I only know vegetarians)

Okay so all that aside, I can't be vegan or vegetarian. It's not a matter of willpower or being "weak", it's actually a medical issue that's common in a lot of people. I have a type of iron deficiency linked to anemia, which is actually very common. My anemia is pretty mild, meaning that regularly consuming iron in some way can help me avoid passing out and a trip to the ER. Most of the time, people will take iron supplements to help with anemia. However, I can't take iron supplements. Not only do they make me throw up, but iron pills are are composed of plant-based (non heme) iron, which my body doesn't actually absorb in large enough numbers to make plants a viable source of iron for me. Which means, without an almost daily amount of red meat in my diet, I'd be passing out and spend every other day in and out of the ER. (There'a also the issue of the medications I have to take not being vegan, but I'd imagine it would be hard for me to go vegan if I can't even go vegetarian so I'll just ignore that).

My situation tends to be not at all discussed because the number of people who cannot stop eating meat for medical issues is not often discussed. More often than health, people can't go vegetarian or vegan because of accessibility. If you've travelled to areas, notably islands, you'll find that plant foods are either super rare or super expensive and its impossible for someone with lower-income to afford being vegan or vegetarian simply due to accessibility. It's a sad reality but it's true that the vegan diet in many places is reserved only for people who can afford it.

So here's my take on everything:

The people on the top aren't evil. They're simply providing a service that people want, but are providing it poorly because our meat industries aren't regulated like they should be. It would be more costly to run things in a more ethical way, true, but I still believe congress should introduce laws to help manage better the meat that people are consuming to ensure that animals that do die are treated well before hand and not stuffed into cages.

The people who can't or simply don't want to be vegan or vegetarian aren't weak. Some people drink, others don't. Some people smoke, others don't. If someone is happy and content consuming meat or cheese or something else, leave them be. I can understand the strong desire to pull someone into your group and community because they could be doing better. Religious people try to convert people all the time. But a good chunk of the time people don't want to be converted and get frustrated when they are called ignorant or weak in response, which only pushes them further and further away from vegetarianism and veganism. When you adopt a holier-than-thou attitude, people are more likely to push themselves as far away from your cause and eat burgers out of spite than actually learn something. If someone doesn't want to quit meat, you have to respect them. Instead of trying to convert someone that clearly doesn't want your ideology, let them be. Don't insult them or degrade them or call them evil. Because all that's going to do is glare at you as they eat a burger out of pure spite.

Moonwick · August 25, 2016

I am not, nor could I ever be a vegetarian or vegan.

A couple things first:

1) I admire people who are vegetarian or vegan for their beliefs because it can take a lot of effort to change your diet. I had to avoid soy and dairy for about two years due to medical reasons and it was extremely difficult. I admire vegetarians and vegans in the same way I admire anyone who sticks to any kind of diet because its hard work having to review all of your food intake to see if it contains something you are trying to avoid.

2) I am sympathetic towards issues in our food industry and the way we treat animals. I have seen videos, studied materials and looked over the issues affecting chickens, cows and pigs (along with some other animals) and the way they are treated before they are killed. I'm not ignorant on this subject.

3) Please stop lumping bees in with animals who are suffering for the food industry. By refusing to eat honey, you are actually contributing to killing bees faster. Honey bee farmers have fields very close to their honey boxes that are safe for bees and help reduce the risks of them being exposed to things like diseases or predators. If you don't buy honey, their profits decrease and they are forced to export their bees to farms to help pollinate the plants. This causes the number of bees that die to go up as they are in much more danger now. (PS, more insects are killed for products like sugar and fruits. If you are vegan and do not eat honey, can you tell me your personal reasons for drawing the line at honey? I'm honestly curious and no one has answered this for me yet/Mostly because I don't know anybody who is vegan to ask I only know vegetarians)

Okay so all that aside, I can't be vegan or vegetarian. It's not a matter of willpower or being "weak", it's actually a medical issue that's common in a lot of people. I have a type of iron deficiency linked to anemia, which is actually very common. My anemia is pretty mild, meaning that regularly consuming iron in some way can help me avoid passing out and a trip to the ER. Most of the time, people will take iron supplements to help with anemia. However, I can't take iron supplements. Not only do they make me throw up, but iron pills are are composed of plant-based (non heme) iron, which my body doesn't actually absorb in large enough numbers to make plants a viable source of iron for me. Which means, without an almost daily amount of red meat in my diet, I'd be passing out and spend every other day in and out of the ER. (There'a also the issue of the medications I have to take not being vegan, but I'd imagine it would be hard for me to go vegan if I can't even go vegetarian so I'll just ignore that).

My situation tends to be not at all discussed because the number of people who cannot stop eating meat for medical issues is not often discussed. More often than health, people can't go vegetarian or vegan because of accessibility. If you've travelled to areas, notably islands, you'll find that plant foods are either super rare or super expensive and its impossible for someone with lower-income to afford being vegan or vegetarian simply due to accessibility. It's a sad reality but it's true that the vegan diet in many places is reserved only for people who can afford it.

So here's my take on everything:

The people on the top aren't evil. They're simply providing a service that people want, but are providing it poorly because our meat industries aren't regulated like they should be. It would be more costly to run things in a more ethical way, true, but I still believe congress should introduce laws to help manage better the meat that people are consuming to ensure that animals that do die are treated well before hand and not stuffed into cages.

The people who can't or simply don't want to be vegan or vegetarian aren't weak. Some people drink, others don't. Some people smoke, others don't. If someone is happy and content consuming meat or cheese or something else, leave them be. I can understand the strong desire to pull someone into your group and community because they could be doing better. Religious people try to convert people all the time. But a good chunk of the time people don't want to be converted and get frustrated when they are called ignorant or weak in response, which only pushes them further and further away from vegetarianism and veganism. When you adopt a holier-than-thou attitude, people are more likely to push themselves as far away from your cause and eat burgers out of spite than actually learn something. If someone doesn't want to quit meat, you have to respect them. Instead of trying to convert someone that clearly doesn't want your ideology, let them be. Don't insult them or degrade them or call them evil. Because all that's going to do is glare at you as they eat a burger out of pure spite.

Thank you for saying this, I couldn't put it into words.

To add some more support:

I can't be a vegan or a vegetarian either because of my hypothyroid, and other issues. Even if I do eat meat, I need to take a myriad of supplements just to feel "okay".

Just eating vegetables is not enough, I've tried, and it made me depressed and a lot worse. And just in case anyone was thinking it, no -- I wouldn't have 'avoided' these health issues if I had only eaten vegetables. I was born with this.

Honestly, pudding, your response is probably the best one I've seen.

Really, this is all worth repeating.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Silverwinter

RWyvern · August 25, 2016

Pudding sums up my clearer thoughts in a way better than I could manage.

See, I have a high-functioning autism. Food textures and tastes are a much bigger deal for me.

I am repulsed by several plant-based foods. My diet consists almost of wheat-based foods, animal products aaaand... whatever my parents manage to throw in amongst a bunch of the aforementioned.

Converting would be awfully mentally taxing for me and on the entire family. I already eat the bare minimum of what I should be having because I am so focused on projects. A fortnight or so ago, I reached dangerously underweight territory and I'm still trying to claw that back, so there's no way I can increase an intake of lower calorie foods and maintain health at all without redoing my entire lifestyle and putting a priority on something I find far less interesting than biology and art.

Reiterating my point that I'd go out and hunt my own prey if I could - I support animal welfare with all my heart. I want so badly for the quality of life to be improved for so many livestock, and the progress being made is so aggravatingly slow.

I will not stop eating animal products. But I WOULD like to see animals being treated respectfully, like the living beings they are.

Shienvien · August 25, 2016

I do wholeheartedly support better living conditions for livestock; I do not necessarily endorse vegetarianism, even less veganism. I do endorse checking which farm did your meat come from, and how they kept their animals, and having regulations and checks for the living conditions of animals from the government-side. I'd much rather have the grazing culture of having large free-range herds of livestock restored on a greater scale, like you can occasionally see here in some rural places. We definitely have the space for that, and I dare say these animals are quite content out there. More people should keep their own chickens for eggs (I know people who have pulled that off in suburban areas). Stricter requirements for the conditions for keeping livestock. And so on and so forth.

Eating meat is the natural order of life - even deer and other classical herbivores will eat carrion and smaller creatures given the opportunity. Death is one of the most certain things in life - and nature is brutal. If someone isn't eventually torn asunder, they'd be slowly succumbing to some horrible mangling disease or spending months gradually breaking apart instead.

I and many people would not be able to survive decently on a plant-only diet. Is it impossible for humans in general? No, but only if you know what you're doing. If you know what you're doing, go on, eat or don't eat whatever you want. Just don't force other people to eat or not eat what you do. That includes your own impressionable children.

I've always sensed an air of hypocrisy in vegans who proclaim "moral reasons" for not consuming animal products. Growing plants still means that living habitats and terrain will be destroyed, fertilizers will be used (which either come from animals or are synthetic, and may end up in bodies of water and destroying ecosystems when used wrongly), animals who'd otherwise eat the growing plants will commonly be shot or poisoned, combines hack hundreds of thousands of small mammals, birds, amphibians and other critters to pieces... Plant farming is hardly bloodless or kind. Depending on type, it'll kill less or more animals than animal farming, but it's definitely not animal-friendly.

Plant farming becomes especially nasty is you love creatures like corvidae and rodents. Crows and rats are among the most intelligent animals there. And somehow, for many people it's somehow OK to murder a crow so it would not eat your crops (and we don't even eat the crows we kill - we just leave the corpses), but it is not OK to kill and eat a somewhat dumber large creature of livestock.

The points about honey are also good - the harm done by bee farming to bees does by no means overweight the fact that were it not for the honey farmers, bees as such would be much less, plants would not get pollinated as effectively...

Infinis · August 26, 2016

Assuming that people with a different diet are somehow lesser than you, calling them weak and ignorant, and generally coming across with a very sanctimonious tone is a terrible way to get people to even listen to your ideals, much less convert them. :/

I can see and understand your point. But the other end of the spectrum is not without fault.

Farming can be super duper terrible for the environment. Overuse leads to nutrient stripping, which leads in turn to more fertilizer use. To preserve as much crop as possible for market, rampant pesticide use is a thing, which directly introduces poison into the environment. There's also the human exploitation issue re: migrant workers.

Humans are not afraid to shoot and poison "trespassing" animals. Out here in the west and southwest where ranching is popular, the rift between ranchers and wolves (and also other predators, but mostly wolves) is a spectacularly huge issue. This directly imperils animals.

In other places where the land has to be cleared to create farmland, deforestation is a direct threat to the very existence of some animals. Borneo and Brazil are shining examples of this particular problem.

Again, I can see where you come from. I can understand why you feel the way you do and why you eat the way you do because you think it's right.

But it's inaccurate and unfair to think that factory farm meat alone is a problem, because industrial agriculture has a lot of negative, devastating side effects of its own. It's less direct-to-consumer with its callousness for the most part, but that doesn't make it any less of a problem.

Lastly, I am not ignorant. I am not weak. I know full well the issues that plague the factory farm industry, from cleanliness to poor treatment to abuse. If I could raise my own food animals, I would; if I could afford non-factory-farm meat all the time I would, but I can't afford that.

Animals taste delicious to me. So do milk, cheese, eggs, and honey. I won't give that up. My issue is with factory farming, not the consumption of meat.

Arwen17 · August 26, 2016

Assuming that people with a different diet are somehow lesser than you, calling them weak and ignorant, and generally coming across with a very sanctimonious tone is a terrible way to get people to even listen to your ideals, much less convert them. :/

I can see and understand your point. But the other end of the spectrum is not without fault.

Farming can be super duper terrible for the environment. Overuse leads to nutrient stripping, which leads in turn to more fertilizer use. To preserve as much crop as possible for market, rampant pesticide use is a thing, which directly introduces poison into the environment. There's also the human exploitation issue re: migrant workers.

Humans are not afraid to shoot and poison "trespassing" animals. Out here in the west and southwest where ranching is popular, the rift between ranchers and wolves (and also other predators, but mostly wolves) is a spectacularly huge issue. This directly imperils animals.

In other places where the land has to be cleared to create farmland, deforestation is a direct threat to the very existence of some animals. Borneo and Brazil are shining examples of this particular problem.

Again, I can see where you come from. I can understand why you feel the way you do and why you eat the way you do because you think it's right.

But it's inaccurate and unfair to think that factory farm meat alone is a problem, because industrial agriculture has a lot of negative, devastating side effects of its own. It's less direct-to-consumer with its callousness for the most part, but that doesn't make it any less of a problem.

Lastly, I am not ignorant. I am not weak. I know full well the issues that plague the factory farm industry, from cleanliness to poor treatment to abuse. If I could raise my own food animals, I would; if I could afford non-factory-farm meat all the time I would, but I can't afford that.

Animals taste delicious to me. So do milk, cheese, eggs, and honey. I won't give that up. My issue is with factory farming, not the consumption of meat.

I get where you're coming from, but from my point of view, you are terribly misinformed aka "ignorant" about how dangerous meat is. Even if your meat is of the highest-quality and hand-raised by the Amish folk, health studies still show animal products are inherently and extremely dangerous.

Our digestive tract looks like a herbivore, not a carnivore/omnivore. We are LITERALLY not designed for meat. It's a scientific fact. True omnivores have digestive features that look more like carnivores. http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/09/a...r-herbivores-2/

Anyone who has truly sat down and studied the dangers of meat and every bit of evidence in our own bodies and health, would know we are not meat-eaters. Even if they aren't overjoyed to find out that information.

There are a few rare people I've met that have done their homework, they do openly admit ALL of the evidence points towards veganism as being the optimal diet of humankind. They also admit they can't give up meat because they like it too much, not because they are suffering under the delusion that it is good for them.

I know a lot of vegans who get upset if you eat meat at all. But that actually isn't what upsets me because I know people are weak. AKA I have compassion for their weakness. People are weak about many things: junk food, meat, overshopping aka debt, drugs, smoking, drinking.

What upsets me is when people DENY the truth of the matter. My weakness is I eat way too much sorbet ice cream, but I don't ever claim it's healthy or try to justify it. I eat it because I'm weak and I'm fully aware there's a possibility it could bite me in the butt one day. Processed sugar feeds cancer.

I'm vegan because it is the only diet that doesn't lead to cancer, diabetes, heart disease, arthritis, and a host of other problems. Not because I'm worried that you shot an animal. Kill all of the animals you want, just don't put them in your mouth. (I don't really recommend killing all animals obviously, because that's a great way to destroy the environment.)

I'm not happy with the way industrial farming is done either. I would love a local farming system. But my focus is on the health of the body and what is going in thru the mouth. What you put in your mouth is something every adult has control over. You have very little control over what agriculture does or doesn't do. But you do have control over your own health destiny by what you buy and eat.

If the evidence wasn't so strong for veganism at every turn, I would eat animals. I'm not in it for animal mercy, I'm in it for health. No matter how you twist and turn the scientific research, it always comes out vegan is best.

Here's some research to get you started:

Early man was NOT a hunter-gatherer:

They were mostly gatherers, very little hunting because hunting is so inefficient. https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2012nl/jun/paleo2.htm

Roman Gladiators were known as "barley men". They were vegan.

There are also writings that Roman soldiers complained if they were fed meat. They wanted to be fed grains before a fight because meat made them sleepy and bloated aka WEAK.

Another favorite counter-argument of meat-eaters is Eskimos.

Eskimo diet is actually extremely unhealthy and science has proved it. I am pointing people towards the most successful ancient diet which created the largest, longest-lived populations. Not every ancient diet in existence does this. I am looking for the "optimal" diet. There are many diets you can "survive" on, but that doesn't make them "optimal".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_diet " It has been suggested that because the fats of the Inuit's wild-caught game are largely monounsaturated and rich in omega-3 fatty acids, the diet does not pose the same health risks as a typical Western high-fat diet.[24] However, actual evidence has shown that Inuit have a similar prevalence of coronary artery disease as non-Inuit populations and they have excessive mortality due to cerebrovascular strokes, with twice the risk to that of the North American population.[25][26] Indeed, the cardiovascular risk of this diet is so severe that the addition of a more standard American diet has reduced the incidence of mortality in Inuit population.[27] Furthermore, fish oil supplement studies have failed to support claims of preventing heart attacks or strokes.[28][29][30]"

Here's another one: https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2015nl/apr/eskimos.htm

So science supports people were mostly vegan since the very beginning of man. What about religion and culture? You can find evidence in every religion and culture around the world that meat was dangerous and should be eaten with caution. The Bible is clear that the original diet in the Garden of Eden was vegan. There are other references to vegan diet and animals in the other holy books as well. Just google it or I will provide the quotes if you ask.

I wonder why all of these extremely successful civilizations recommended abstaining from meat in their holy books and other customs? Maybe because they know it's been the best diet since the dawn of civilization? They aren't idiots. Their civilizations would have perished if they didn't find the best foods and forge ahead.

The Starch Solution, he shows how every successful population on earth was eating large amounts of carbs aka grains/potatoes/rice:

NOT MEAT.

Documentary on the Leading causes of death:

Vegan blood demonstrated incredible cancer death rates compared to the blood of vegetarians (dairy-eaters) and meat-eaters.

Why don't doctors recommend veganism:

Loma Linda, California Seventh-Day Adventists and Okinawa, Japan are BLUE ZONES. Very little to zero amount of meat/dairy/eggs and they have hundreds of people who are over 100 years old living there. Longest-lived places on the planet.

Want to know the reason why women live longer than men? Because women on average eat less meat than men. In our society, "manliness" is equated with eating a lot of meat, whereas females are more likely to get a salad instead.

I always thought we women were just naturally superior to men, but nope! research shows men are killed off earlier because they eat more meat.

And that is just to get you started on the HEALTH issues of the human body. Because we're currently ignoring all of the other issues: animal cruelty, animal extinction, monoculture farming to feed the animals, pollution, rainforest deforestation, greenhouse gases, food poisoning (listeria, salmonella) from animal farm runoff, etc.

One of my favorite things to do is to try to poke holes in my own arguments. If the evidence that we are herbivores wasn't so OVERWHELMING, I would've found reasonable evidence for it by now. I'm still waiting for anyone to find the one loophole in veganism, but it hasn't happened.

The evidence for veganism is as strong as the evidence that smoking and alcohol are bad for you. The difference is that currently our gov't is controlled by the lobby interests of the meat/dairy/big-pharm-and-medical industries. The TRUTH isn't profitable to any of those groups. Doctors need people to stay sick, otherwise they don't make money on drugs and appointments.

Arwen17 · August 26, 2016

I am not, nor could I ever be a vegetarian or vegan.

A couple things first:

1) I admire people who are vegetarian or vegan for their beliefs because it can take a lot of effort to change your diet. I had to avoid soy and dairy for about two years due to medical reasons and it was extremely difficult. I admire vegetarians and vegans in the same way I admire anyone who sticks to any kind of diet because its hard work having to review all of your food intake to see if it contains something you are trying to avoid.

2) I am sympathetic towards issues in our food industry and the way we treat animals. I have seen videos, studied materials and looked over the issues affecting chickens, cows and pigs (along with some other animals) and the way they are treated before they are killed. I'm not ignorant on this subject.

3) Please stop lumping bees in with animals who are suffering for the food industry. By refusing to eat honey, you are actually contributing to killing bees faster. Honey bee farmers have fields very close to their honey boxes that are safe for bees and help reduce the risks of them being exposed to things like diseases or predators. If you don't buy honey, their profits decrease and they are forced to export their bees to farms to help pollinate the plants. This causes the number of bees that die to go up as they are in much more danger now. (PS, more insects are killed for products like sugar and fruits. If you are vegan and do not eat honey, can you tell me your personal reasons for drawing the line at honey? I'm honestly curious and no one has answered this for me yet/Mostly because I don't know anybody who is vegan to ask I only know vegetarians)

Okay so all that aside, I can't be vegan or vegetarian. It's not a matter of willpower or being "weak", it's actually a medical issue that's common in a lot of people. I have a type of iron deficiency linked to anemia, which is actually very common. My anemia is pretty mild, meaning that regularly consuming iron in some way can help me avoid passing out and a trip to the ER. Most of the time, people will take iron supplements to help with anemia. However, I can't take iron supplements. Not only do they make me throw up, but iron pills are are composed of plant-based (non heme) iron, which my body doesn't actually absorb in large enough numbers to make plants a viable source of iron for me. Which means, without an almost daily amount of red meat in my diet, I'd be passing out and spend every other day in and out of the ER. (There'a also the issue of the medications I have to take not being vegan, but I'd imagine it would be hard for me to go vegan if I can't even go vegetarian so I'll just ignore that).

My situation tends to be not at all discussed because the number of people who cannot stop eating meat for medical issues is not often discussed. More often than health, people can't go vegetarian or vegan because of accessibility. If you've travelled to areas, notably islands, you'll find that plant foods are either super rare or super expensive and its impossible for someone with lower-income to afford being vegan or vegetarian simply due to accessibility. It's a sad reality but it's true that the vegan diet in many places is reserved only for people who can afford it.

So here's my take on everything:

The people on the top aren't evil. They're simply providing a service that people want, but are providing it poorly because our meat industries aren't regulated like they should be. It would be more costly to run things in a more ethical way, true, but I still believe congress should introduce laws to help manage better the meat that people are consuming to ensure that animals that do die are treated well before hand and not stuffed into cages.

The people who can't or simply don't want to be vegan or vegetarian aren't weak. Some people drink, others don't. Some people smoke, others don't. If someone is happy and content consuming meat or cheese or something else, leave them be. I can understand the strong desire to pull someone into your group and community because they could be doing better. Religious people try to convert people all the time. But a good chunk of the time people don't want to be converted and get frustrated when they are called ignorant or weak in response, which only pushes them further and further away from vegetarianism and veganism. When you adopt a holier-than-thou attitude, people are more likely to push themselves as far away from your cause and eat burgers out of spite than actually learn something. If someone doesn't want to quit meat, you have to respect them. Instead of trying to convert someone that clearly doesn't want your ideology, let them be. Don't insult them or degrade them or call them evil. Because all that's going to do is glare at you as they eat a burger out of pure spite.

I tell people over and over again. Veganism doesn't have to be expensive. Beans and rice are available everywhere and are dirt cheap.

Veganism is always associated with "fancy, rich" processed foods, but that is not the way I recommend vegans eat. You want unprocessed, simple foods like potatoes, beans, rice, frozen veggies. You can't get cheaper than that.

Plus, if you eat boxed processed foods for years, eventually your medical costs will rise as you start suffering from diseases or malnutrition. It costs more in the long run.

A lot of medical issues are caused by the meat people are eating. And they don't even try veganism, so they have no way of knowing.

http://www.nomeatathlete.com/iron-for-vegetarians/

If there really are people who must have meat, it's not because they are "omnivores", but because they've screwed themselves up so bad their body no longer functions normally like it should.

I agree people have the right to kill themselves via smoking, drinking, or bad eating. But they will still have an effect on the world around them. They will still cause healthcare insurance costs to rise and give their family/friends emotional hardship. They can also pass on bad genes to children (drinking while pregnant for example), or teach children their bad habits growing up.

So I don't think it's just a simple matter of "do whatever you want because its your life." Because your life effects everyone else's life too.

Your rights end where the other man's nose begins.

They're welcome to eat a burger out of pure spite. Because the irony is, the only one they are spiting is themselves. They're the ones who will have to pay for it down-the-road. These people don't understand we're trying to save their life. We aren't trying to irritate them for fun. It's a matter of life or death. But as the saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink". They are welcome to kill themselves, despite our warnings.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Arwen17

Shienvien · August 26, 2016

A lot of the "meat is bad for you" is propaganda. People advocating for their agendas very frequently use fearmongering, scare-tactics, misinterpretation of statistics, and outright lies. It's very easy to push content to internet. People abuse it for furthering their goals to hell and back.

This is not an issue specific to militant vegans, not even when only food is concerned. You can literally find a "X is poison for you" article for any food item - I recall one about all plant oils being strong carcinogens, especially if fried. You can bet that I regard that one with the same amount of skepticism. (I can dig it up, if someone wants.)

For example, this:

I'm vegan because it is the only diet that doesn't lead to cancer, diabetes, heart disease, arthritis, and a host of other problems.

Is absolutely untrue. Vegans can and do get those things. On a frequent basis. Misinformed vegans even more so.

Meat eating does not magically cause cancer. What does? Mutations, genetic predisposition (basically "poorer detection of potential cancerous cells")... Mutations occur randomly, due to some chemicals (including many pesticides), UV light from the sun, natural background radiation, etc. In fact, if our immune systems were not constantly working to destroy "faulty" cells, we'd all be dead from cancer, within days. Our cell replication system is just that inaccurate.

One type of diabetes is from genetics. Another type of diabetes is mostly derived from overconsumption of easily digestible hydrocarbons and sugars that eventually wear the related systems down. Many plants have ridiculous amounts of those sugars and hydrocarbons, being largely sugar and water. You can absolutely peak your blood sugar to absurd levels from eating fruit, say, grapes... (I almost failed a blood test due eating strawberries once... 6.9, which is nothing overly drastic, granted, but still above a norm, and the criteria are pretty strict for tests like that.)

And so on and so forth. I know for a fact that if I tried eating vegan, I'd most likely die thirty years before I'm due. As it stands, I'm as much as ill approximately once every two years, and have no complaints about the general state of my health.

Arwen17 · August 26, 2016

A lot of the "meat is bad for you" is propaganda. People advocating for their agendas very frequently use fearmongering, scare-tactics, misinterpretation of statistics, and outright lies. It's very easy to push content to internet. People abuse it for furthering their goals to hell and back.

This is not an issue specific to militant vegans, not even when only food is concerned. You can literally find a "X is poison for you" article for any food item - I recall one about all plant oils being strong carcinogens, especially if fried. You can bet that I regard that one with the same amount of skepticism. (I can dig it up, if someone wants.)

For example, this:

Is absolutely untrue. Vegans can and do get those things. On a frequent basis. Misinformed vegans even more so.

Meat eating does not magically cause cancer. What does? Mutations, genetic predisposition (basically "poorer detection of potential cancerous cells")... Mutations occur randomly, due to some chemicals (including many pesticides), UV light from the sun, natural background radiation, etc. In fact, if our immune systems were not constantly working to destroy "faulty" cells, we'd all be dead from cancer, within days. Our cell replication system is just that inaccurate.

One type of diabetes is from genetics. Another type of diabetes is mostly derived from overconsumption of easily digestible hydrocarbons and sugars that eventually wear the related systems down. Many plants have ridiculous amounts of those sugars and hydrocarbons, being largely sugar and water. You can absolutely peak your blood sugar to absurd levels from eating fruit, say, grapes... (I almost failed a blood test due eating strawberries once... 6.9, which is nothing overly drastic, granted, but still above a norm, and the criteria are pretty strict for tests like that.)

And so on and so forth. I know for a fact that if I tried eating vegan, I'd most likely die thirty years before I'm due. As it stands, I'm as much as ill approximately once every two years, and have no complaints about the general state of my health.

I agree plant oils are bad.

You have to understand I am a WHOLE-FOODS HCLF (high carb low fat) vegan. I am not a junk-food, processed veggie burger vegan.

I eat the diet that has been eaten for thousands of years by the majority of civilizations on the planet.

There is tons of research showing that cancer, diabetes, heart disease are 1st world problems of the modern age. You go back in time and you won't find these kinds of diseases. They are diet-driven. They didn't magically appear out of the blue.

Genetic mutations are more likely to happen if your parents are eating a bad diet.

And now you're trying to tell me fruit is bad for you. We've been eating fruit for thousands of years. Plenty of vegans, myself included, eat lots of fruit and have no issues.

Fruit vs processed sugar in processed foods is completely different.

http://www.pcrm.org/health/diabetes-resour...-about-diabetes

7. What about fruit? Is it okay to eat?

Yes, fruit is a healthful part of the diet. While fruit is sweet and contains sugar, it tends not to greatly increase blood glucose levels. Very few fruits have a high-glycemic index: watermelon and pineapple.

The Top Ten Myths about fruit http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/blog/?p=173

Dr. Graham, author of the book “The 80-10-10 Diet”, also told me that whenever people came to him thinking that their “blood sugar was out of balance” due to sweet fruit consumption, they were found to have perfectly normal blood sugar after being tested.

That being said, I think that it’s still possible for some people to experience a negative reaction from eating sweet fruit. However, it’s not the fruit that’s to blame in this case, but their overall diet which is too high in fat.

What A Huge Fruit Meal Did To My Blood Sugar (Raw Vegan Diet)

For 26 Years, I’ve Managed Type 1 Diabetes With a Plant-Based Diet

http://www.forksoverknives.com/type-1-diabetes-vegan-diet/

http://www.pcrm.org/health/diabetes-resour...de-for-diabetes

The evidence favoring a new approach came first from comparisons of various populations around the world. People whose diets were based mainly on plant-derived foods—that is, rice, noodles, beans, and vegetables—were less likely to develop diabetes, compared with people whose diets are fattier or centered on meatier dishes. For example, among people following traditional Japanese diets, diabetes was rare. Studies show that when people moved from Japan to the U.S. and adopted a Western diet, they were much more likely to develop diabetes.

hese studies suggested that meaty, fatty diets cause the body to be more resistant to insulin’s actions. Clinical research studies have shown that adopting a low-fat, plant-derived diet does indeed improve insulin sensitivity, help with weight loss, and reduce blood sugar and cholesterol.

Part of the value of a low-fat, plant-based diet is that it is very low in saturated fat—that is, the kind of fat that is found especially in meats, dairy products, and tropical oils (coconut, palm, or palm kernel oil).

Blaming fruit while you're eating a high-fat diet is like blaming fruit for lung cancer when you're a smoker. You may have been eating fruit, but why can't your body handle the fruit? Is there something wrong with the fruit or something wrong with your body?

I wish you would watch the links I provided in my previous post. They provide all of the evidence for how meat causes cancer and then some.

These are not random people who are "pushing content to the internet". They are people with doctorate degrees. And once again, COMMON SENSE by just examining history and the areas that are living the longest today would tell you who's right.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Arwen17

Obscure_Trash · August 26, 2016

Arwen - do you have any links to any academic studies? Tbh, I'm just not interested in clicking any youtube links, having to pause other things I've got going, and listen at the speed of the speaker.

A Hypothesis to the Role of Meat-Eating in Human Evolution - Katherine Milton

An interesting read on why humans began eating meat even though it does not appear that we don't have the digestive tract exactly for it. It also talks about other primates and how their diet seems to perhaps have some correlation with their societal structure and social behavior.

~

My sister is a vegetarian - just went vegan the other day. We've always supported her meals and offered her vegetarian options for as long as she's been on a veggie diet. I 100% support anyone who is on any sort of veggie diet. I 100% support that other people do not have a right to criticize someone for being on a veggie diet. My sister has a lot of troubles with our dad and grandpa being royal pricks and teasing her about this when it's not something that she can take being teased about. It's not something she finds friendly or funny, and neither do I. A lot of family meals end up in my mom or I telling everyone to just shut up because we can't create peace on either side. =| I 100% do not support getting lectured on my own diet as well. Which is something that my sister does. A lot.

While I agree that we should not be factory farming and would support largely scaling back how much meat we eat, I will also point out that meat is important to many cultures/religions. For example, Inuit's reliance on whales or Halal meat in Islam. So I find blanket statements of "nobody should ever eat meat ever", quite frankly, ignorant and racist. Not to mention that a lot of Western diet fads (which, while can be driven by veggie diet folk, are not supported only by veggie diet folk, but it's related, so I'm bring it up) steal food from other places, driving up prices so that locals who relied on that food for important nutrients in their diets cannot afford that food anymore. For example, quinoa, acai, etc.

Tom Philpott, “Are Quinoa, Chia Seeds, and other ‘Superfoods’ a Scam?” (from Mother Jones)

Also worth highlighting is this section:

“Worse than superfoods’ origin myths, though, are their effects on the people in their native regions. In 2009, at the height of the açaí berry hype, Bloomberg News reported that the fruit’s wholesale price had jumped 60-fold since the early 2000s, pricing the Amazonian villagers who rely on it out of the market. In the Andes, where quinoa has been cultivated since the time of the Incas, price spikes have turned a one-time staple into a luxury, and quinoa monocrops are crowding out the more sustainable traditional methods.” (emphasis mine)

So not only are the markets for “superfoods” putting the foods out of reach of the people who relied on them as a dietary staple, but there are foods easily accessible to us that deliver all the nutrition at a fraction of the cost, both to our grocery bill and to the social/environmental toll.

So I am for fixing how we do agriculture. I am for deconstructing capitalism, which would basically disband factory farming. But I am not for forcing everybody to give up meat.

ShinyTomato (who is a social worker who used to be active here) had quite a few posts in various threads about children who were malnourished specifically due to their vegetarian parent's resistance to listening to to their doctors about those specific children needing meat to be healthy. One parent once told her they'd rather their child starve to death than eat meat. D: Not all kids need meat, but there are those with health issues and the best way for them to stay healthy was to have some meat in their diet. As well, AlicornsPrayer (an inactive GD mod) had posted a bit on her health issues and how she had extreme troubles with a meat-free diet and needed to eat meat to stay healthy. Some people do need meat to live.

So I will always support the choice to choose your diet.

Arwen17 · August 26, 2016

Arwen - do you have any links to any academic studies? Tbh, I'm just not interested in clicking any youtube links, having to pause other things I've got going, and listen at the speed of the speaker.

A Hypothesis to the Role of Meat-Eating in Human Evolution - Katherine Milton

An interesting read on why humans began eating meat even though it does not appear that we don't have the digestive tract exactly for it. It also talks about other primates and how their diet seems to perhaps have some correlation with their societal structure and social behavior.

~

My sister is a vegetarian - just went vegan the other day. We've always supported her meals and offered her vegetarian options for as long as she's been on a veggie diet. I 100% support anyone who is on any sort of veggie diet. I 100% support that other people do not have a right to criticize someone for being on a veggie diet. My sister has a lot of troubles with our dad and grandpa being royal pricks and teasing her about this when it's not something that she can take being teased about. It's not something she finds friendly or funny, and neither do I. A lot of family meals end up in my mom or I telling everyone to just shut up because we can't create peace on either side. =| I 100% do not support getting lectured on my own diet as well. Which is something that my sister does. A lot.

While I agree that we should not be factory farming and would support largely scaling back how much meat we eat, I will also point out that meat is important to many cultures/religions. For example, Inuit's reliance on whales or Halal meat in Islam. So I find blanket statements of "nobody should ever eat meat ever", quite frankly, ignorant and racist. Not to mention that a lot of Western diet fads (which, while can be driven by veggie diet folk, are not supported only by veggie diet folk, but it's related, so I'm bring it up) steal food from other places, driving up prices so that locals who relied on that food for important nutrients in their diets cannot afford that food anymore. For example, quinoa, acai, etc.

So I am for fixing how we do agriculture. I am for deconstructing capitalism, which would basically disband factory farming. But I am not for forcing everybody to give up meat.

ShinyTomato (who is a social worker who used to be active here) had quite a few posts in various threads about children who were malnourished specifically due to their vegetarian parent's resistance to listening to to their doctors about those specific children needing meat to be healthy. One parent once told her they'd rather their child starve to death than eat meat. D: Not all kids need meat, but there are those with health issues and the best way for them to stay healthy was to have some meat in their diet. As well, AlicornsPrayer (an inactive GD mod) had posted a bit on her health issues and how she had extreme troubles with a meat-free diet and needed to eat meat to stay healthy. Some people do need meat to live.

So I will always support the choice to choose your diet.

There are studies mentioned in all of the links and videos I've provided. I understand not wanting to watch a video, but for some studies and information, I heard about it in the video, not from an article, so that's the starting point I can give you.

Let's take the quotes I provided about the Eskimo diet in one of my previous posts.

From my previous post:

Another favorite counter-argument of meat-eaters is Eskimos.

Eskimo diet is actually extremely unhealthy and science has proved it. I am pointing people towards the most successful ancient diet which created the largest, longest-lived populations. Not every ancient diet in existence does this. I am looking for the "optimal" diet. There are many diets you can "survive" on, but that doesn't make them "optimal".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_diet " It has been suggested that because the fats of the Inuit's wild-caught game are largely monounsaturated and rich in omega-3 fatty acids, the diet does not pose the same health risks as a typical Western high-fat diet.[24] However, actual evidence has shown that Inuit have a similar prevalence of coronary artery disease as non-Inuit populations and they have excessive mortality due to cerebrovascular strokes, with twice the risk to that of the North American population.[25][26] Indeed, the cardiovascular risk of this diet is so severe that the addition of a more standard American diet has reduced the incidence of mortality in Inuit population.[27] Furthermore, fish oil supplement studies have failed to support claims of preventing heart attacks or strokes.[28][29][30]"

Here's another one: https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2015nl/apr/eskimos.htm

If you click on the links and go to the page, you can see what studies it is linking to:

24. Gadsby, Patricia (October 1, 2004). "The Inuit Paradox" . Discover Magazine. pp. 1–4. Retrieved 24 December 2009.

25. Fodor, George J.; Helis, Eftyhia; Yazdekhasti, Narges; Vohnout, Branislav (2014). ""Fishing" for the origins of the "Eskimos and heart disease" story. Facts or wishful thinking? A review" (PDF). Canadian Journal of Cardiology. 30: 864–868. doi:10.1016/j.cjca.2014.04.007 . ISSN 0828-282X .

26. Preston, Elizabeth (2014-08-01). "The Fishy Origins of the Fish Oil Craze" . Slate. The Slate Group. Retrieved 2014-08-05. In the 1970s, a pair of Danish researchers ventured north of the Arctic Circle and into medical lore. Studying a scattered Inuit population, they concluded that eating plenty of fish and other marine animals protected this group from heart disease. The researchers would eventually suggest that everyone else’s hearts and arteries might also benefit from the “Eskimo diet,” promoting a health food trend that continues to this day. The only trouble is, the two Danes never proved that the Inuit had low rates of heart disease. They never tested it at all. But today the market for fish oil pills is booming, even as scientists conduct trial after trial to hunt for a link to heart health that has never quite solidified.

27. Bjerregaard, Peter; Young, T. Kue; Hegele, Robert A. (2003-02-01). "Low incidence of cardiovascular disease among the Inuit--what is the evidence?" . Atherosclerosis. 166 (2): 351–357. doi:10.1016/s0021-9150(02)00364-7 . ISSN 0021-9150 . PMID 12535749 .

28. Zimmer, Carl (September 17, 2015). "Inuit Study Adds Twist to Omega-3 Fatty Acids' Health Story" . New York Times. Retrieved October 11, 2015.

29. O'Connor, Anahad (March 30, 2015). "Fish Oil Claims Not Supported by Research" . New York Times. Retrieved October 11, 2015.

31. Grey, Andrew; Bolland, Mark (March 2014). "Clinical Trial Evidence and Use of Fish Oil Supplements" . JAMA Internal Medicine. 174 (3): 460–462. doi:10.1001/jamainternmed.2013.12765 . Retrieved October 11, 2015.

I can't believe studies like the one you posted because the evidence that can be observed today and in recent past is so contrary to it. They can make up all kinds of things using evolution, but can they observe it happening today? No, they can't.

So unless you're going to tell me the human race has recently evolved beyond meat and now does better on a herbivore diet, that study is inaccurate.

If we "evolved" to eat meat, then why do the Eskimos, who are eating a non-processed ancient diet, do so poorly on it?

Why have all civilizations with large, long-lived populations in the recent past and TODAY thrive best on a plant-based diet?

People just don't want to believe they might be herbivores because they see carnivores as "superior" because lions are "higher" on the food chain. It's a human arrogance thing. "I must be a carnivore/omnivore because I'm the "highest" on the food chain. NO way could an herbivore climb to the top!"

Edited August 26, 2016 by Arwen17

Arwen17 · August 26, 2016

The Seventh Day Adventists in Loma Linda are famous for their health studies in these matters, since they have a huge vegan population living there they can study and compare/contrast to non-vegans.

https://news.adventist.org/en/all-news/news...st-study-finds/

http://publichealth.llu.edu/adventist-health-studies

The studies are there. Google is all it takes. I don't have time to regurgitate the google search engines results here.

World Health Org has said eat less meat too:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/0...-slow-to-change

Edited August 26, 2016 by Arwen17

Amaterasu-sama · August 26, 2016

@Topic

I am vegetarian by choice and would not have it any other way. I do not judge people who eat meat as everyone has their own different upbringing but vegetarianism is perfectly healthy lifestyle (unlike some myths suggested).

Everyone in my family is also vegetarian by choice.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Amaterasu-sama

Aleoleo · August 26, 2016

[snip]I and many people would not be able to survive decently on a plant-only diet. Is it impossible for humans in general? No, but only if you know what you're doing. If you know what you're doing, go on, eat or don't eat whatever you want. Just don't force other people to eat or not eat what you do. That includes your own impressionable children.[snip]
(bold is mine)

May I just point out that when you have kids, you cannot NOT impose things on them. If your parents think that dairy products are good, then as a kid you will eat dairy products. If your parents think an omnivorous diet is best, you will eat meat. If your parents think being vegan is good, you'll grow up vegan, etc. The best parents can do is make sure their kids are in good health (and stay open-minded, of course, if a health problem does occur).

-

As for the other point (impossibility to have a vegetarian/vegan diet because of health reasons) it makes perfect sense to me. I had chronical anemia myself, that was actually greatly improved once I stopped eating meat because apparently plant-based iron is what's best for me.

I know someone who has a raw vegan diet and is perfectly healthy (and disgustingly full of energy, I may add). Yet it was a disaster when I tried it.

Why wouldn't people be unable to have a vegetarian or vegan diet for health reason? We're all different.

(Also. I'm so far out of my depth, language-wise, to join such a conversation. Please bear with me. )

Obscure_Trash · August 26, 2016

"E****o" is a derogatory term. Inuit is the proper term.

I can't believe studies like the one you posted because the evidence that can be observed today and in recent past is so contrary to it. That can make up all kinds of things using evolution, but can they observe it happening today? No, they can't.
So unless you're going to tell me the human race has recently evolved beyond meat and now does better on a herbivore diet, that study is inaccurate.

I don't know how to respond to this because that's not what the paper talked about at all? They simply talked about evolution of the gut and evolution into modern humans. They didn't say they actually watched any of this happen??? It's labeled a hypothesis for a reason???

If we "evolved" to eat meat, then why do the E**, who are eating a non-processed ancient diet, do so poorly on it?

The article I linked directly talked about why this might be.

Not to mention, until Europe invaded the world and then rapidly changed transportation/communication/etc to fit our world-scale operations, peoples had to depend on the food that was readily available to them. A purely plant-based diet just wasn't reasonable for a lot of peoples, at least not year round.

~

Finally, I'm just not into discussing diets from a purely health-based perspective because I can name very few people, vegan, vegetarian, or otherwise who eat based on what is actually healthiest for them. We eat what we need to survive and that isn't always healthy, and the ethics of arguing that doing so is wrong... just doesn't sit completely well with me.

Arwen17 · August 26, 2016

"E****o" is a derogatory term. Inuit is the proper term.

I don't know how to respond to this because that's not what the paper talked about at all? They simply talked about evolution of the gut and evolution into modern humans. They didn't say they actually watched any of this happen??? It's labeled a hypothesis for a reason???

The article I linked directly talked about why this might be.

Not to mention, until Europe invaded the world and then rapidly changed transportation/communication/etc to fit our world-scale operations, peoples had to depend on the food that was readily available to them. A purely plant-based diet just wasn't reasonable for a lot of peoples, at least not year round.

~

Finally, I'm just not into discussing diets from a purely health-based perspective because I can name very few people, vegan, vegetarian, or otherwise who eat based on what is actually healthiest for them. We eat what we need to survive and that isn't always healthy, and the ethics of arguing that doing so is wrong... just doesn't sit completely well with me.

The way I understood the article is that it was arguing meat played a primary role in the evolution of the gut. If meat played a PRIMARY role, why are our bodies so ill adapted to meat in present times?

I'm not blaming the Eskimos (or any culture trying to survive in an extreme environment) for eating the way they do. It makes logical sense for Eskimos to eat lots of meat because they certainly can't farm up there in the North.

The only point I'm making is that is not the IDEAL diet. Those are not IDEAL conditions for humans to live in.

If you are starving in the desert and the only thing to eat is an animal, then go for it. Animal is better than starving.

But most of us are not living in such an extreme situation. Most of us here are in a cushy 1st world country where we can make the IDEAL choices for our diets and avoid health issues.

But instead, 1st world countries are eating hyper-rich, processed foods for pure enjoyment rather than health and they are paying for it with their health problems.

I'm arguing that we are eating poorly when we have plenty of power to change that.

RWyvern · August 26, 2016

As for the other point (impossibility to have a vegetarian/vegan diet because of health reasons) it makes perfect sense to me. I had chronical anemia myself, that was actually greatly improved once I stopped eating meat because apparently plant-based iron is what's best for me.
I know someone who has a raw vegan diet and is perfectly healthy (and disgustingly full of energy, I may add). Yet it was a disaster when I tried it.

Just gonna say, awesome! My sister is doing really well on her vegan diet so far (she also seems to have a lactose intolerance which has since, obviously, resolved), and I love it when people can pull it off respectfully /v\

-

Arwen, I want to propose this question to you. You seem extremely adamant that meat is terrible to the body, but what do you say to people who have to have it for their health? Weren't there two users already within the last couple pages on this thread who made that statement? What about people like me, who has severe taste and texture issues to the point where plant matter can make me sick from texture alone? Are we all doomed to die an early death thanks to how our bodies handle things?

And again, I want to mention that I am underweight, borderlining on dangerously unhealthy levels and it is taking me a lot of work to regain what I've lost. My issue is a lack of interest in food and a fast metabolism, compounded by a lot of family issues over the past year. Meats and cheeses are my most reliable way of even maintaining what I presently have - if I dropped it for ~health reasons~, ironically, I would likely end up in the hospital.

Shienvien · August 26, 2016

And now you're trying to tell me fruit is bad for you. We've been eating fruit for thousands of years. Plenty of vegans, myself included, eat lots of fruit and have no issues.

Calling "plenty of ___ are fine despite ___" is a fallacy. Plenty of predominantly carnivorous people are also fine. I am fine, my parents are fine, my grandparents are fine, my great-grandparents, minus those killed by the soviets, lived to their eighties-nineties. One of them, nearing 100, is still alive, is still mobile, and has her mind sharp as ever.

And yes - depending on your personal digestion, eating fruit can be bad for you (and mind, I *like* many types of fruit). I know people who, my medical professionals, have been specifically banned from eating many fruit because it does a number on their blood sugar and general health.

Your "high-carbon" diet can be lethally bad for some people, for instance myself. Your diet might work for you, but I would eventually die from it. I'm not winging it - it's what doctors and blood tests tell me. You can't argue with what a blood test tells you, even if your doctor might miss something.

I tried to accommodate my diet to an almost-vegan vegetarian once, for about two months, simply because I was living with them and they offered and... The effects on me were observably noticeable, and my blood went quite some ways into the "not OK" part of the spectrum. It was worse than the effects of almost literally starving for over a week while also doing physically strenuous activities, to put things into perspective (mountain-hiking with limited supplies, not fad diet, in case someone is wondering; that was over a decade ago). I'm not willing to experiment on myself like that again. I physically cannot live on a vegan diet.

Just to bold it: What works for you, physically cannot work for many others.

And, to reiterate: many studies are either very biased, poorly conducted, or outright fabricated. You cannot believe a study just because it exists, especially if it is by a proponent of one or another outcome.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Shienvien

DuskOfTheStars · August 26, 2016

Arwen17 - Can you please tell me why you think humans have carnivore-like canines? I'm interested.

Also (pet peeve warning!) You got your genetics wrong. Yes, there are mutagens. No, foods are not mutagrns. What are? Raidiation, certain chemicals, UV rays, and X-rays.

What you may be thinking of is the epigenome - it's modifications that affect the DNA text. Like DNA methylation, histone modifications, and similar. Epigentic imprints on a zygite are wiped except for crucial imprinting regoins when the zygote forms, and from then on the environment can affect it. Epigenetic changes can be transmissible - but it's not really common.

---

Now, my PoV. I do not mind what you eat, so long as you don't push it down people's throats. That's all I really gace to say.

Yes, factory farming is cruel - but it is not easy to sustain huge populations without things like that!

Also, crop farming can sprnd a lot of water. Not good. I should kniw - I currently live in California! We gave a severe drought, so we cannot have people draining all of it fir crops. Not to mention all the pesticides. Most peopke don't really care about organic when they farm - they want cash. So they use pesticides to make their plants less insect-infested.

Organic farmers are the minority, so their food is expensive. And while growing your own sounds noble, if you want a big enough operation to feed yoursslf from it most of the time, you need to have farm knowhow and/or a good understanfing of growingbthings in your clinste. My parents farmed when they were children, and my grandparents were farmers up until recently.

And then... well, we evolved as omnivores, to be honest. Look at our evolutionary rekatives! Our closest relatives are chimpanzees and bonobos, both of which are omnivorous. There are great apes who are completely insectivirous or gerbivirous, nut most great apes are omnivores. Omnivires have the ability to digest both plants and meat by definition, and to durvive offboth. It seems to be easier to survive on a herbivorous diet than a carnivotous one, but that may be due to increased variability.

Yes, the West has health issues thanks to processed food. But meat id not by any iota the only type of processed food. White rice? Yep, processed. Yes, we have the power to change that. Some people do not want to though - and if it's not you or your dependent, it is likely it isn't your business. Others have certain foods they cannot eat or are extremrly picky.

Still other people have heath issues. There are people who eat what they eat for health reasons! Shienvien and rampaging wyvern are both very good examples and make much better points than I can.

Also, humans do not have a specific ideal diet for the whole species. Instead, each individual has their own ideal. If your ideal is your vegan diet, then eat it! I just happen to have a different ideal diet, that's all. Another thing that can maje ir beeak a diet is texture. Pineapple and dark poultry meat make me gag, peppers and tomatoes are too slimy, carrots are much too chewy, hot dogs have a weird texture, etc for me (in short, a much less severe version of wyv's issue, though like wyv I have food interest issues) - but you have your own palate. And funny fact - I actually make myself eat thise horrible carots (horrible no matter commercially or home garden grown) because of my eyesight! Due to a hard time noticing hunger and low interest in starting to est food (and recently losing interest faurly quickly), I have to eat stuff I find tasty to get myself to eat, and I'll dump my food and creep off if I know I've got no chance at a sweet.

Finally, did you know Japanese culture actually eats a fair bit of meat (dark chicken meat, seafood)? And there are multiple Japanese oeople in the top 10 longest-lived currently alive last I checked.

A site you may want to investigate and search on: http://www.nature.com/index.html

Nature us a highly respected scientific journal, if you're curious.

I think I'll leave now to go look up some genetics stuff there. Plus it's 2 in the morning for me and I need my sleep.

I'm sorry if I sound rude - I seem to have an issue with coming off as rude... very sorry if I seem rude!

Obscure_Trash · August 26, 2016

The way I understood the article is that it was arguing meat played a primary role in the evolution of the gut. If meat played a PRIMARY role, why are our bodies so ill adapted to meat in present times?

Because the primary role was to allow us to keep up a higher-energy lifestyle and high sociable structures.

Using meat to supply essential amino acids and many required micronutrients frees space in the gut for plant foods. In addition, because these essential dietary requirements are now being met by other means, evolving humans would have been able to select plant foods primarily for energy rather than relying on them for most or all nutritional requirements. This dietary strategy is compatible with hominoid gut anatomy and digestive kinetics and would have permitted ancestral humans to increase their body size without losing mobility, agility, or sociality. This dietary strategy could have also provided the energy required for cerebral expansion.

The point of the article isn't that we evolved to eat meat. It's to propose that we did begin eating meat and this allowed us to evolve into modern humans.

~

Please avoid the term "E****o". =( As I said, the correct term is Inuit (or whatever specific Inuit group you are talking about.)

Edited August 26, 2016 by SockPuppet Strangler

Arwen17 · August 26, 2016

Just gonna say, awesome! My sister is doing really well on her vegan diet so far (she also seems to have a lactose intolerance which has since, obviously, resolved), and I love it when people can pull it off respectfully /v\

-

Arwen, I want to propose this question to you. You seem extremely adamant that meat is terrible to the body, but what do you say to people who have to have it for their health? Weren't there two users already within the last couple pages on this thread who made that statement? What about people like me, who has severe taste and texture issues to the point where plant matter can make me sick from texture alone? Are we all doomed to die an early death thanks to how our bodies handle things?

And again, I want to mention that I am underweight, borderlining on dangerously unhealthy levels and it is taking me a lot of work to regain what I've lost. My issue is a lack of interest in food and a fast metabolism, compounded by a lot of family issues over the past year. Meats and cheeses are my most reliable way of even maintaining what I presently have - if I dropped it for ~health reasons~, ironically, I would likely end up in the hospital.

I did briefly address this in a previous post. I know my posts are long because I'm trying to answer so many questions.

Here's what I said earlier:

A lot of medical issues are caused by the meat people are eating. And they don't even try veganism, so they have no way of knowing.

http://www.nomeatathlete.com/iron-for-vegetarians/

If there really are people who must have meat, it's not because they are "omnivores", but because they've screwed themselves up so bad their body no longer functions normally like it should.

Many people have a lot of different issues that they find were caused by meat,dairy,junk-food,some-other-unhealthy-habit. Then they blame plants for this issue. "It's the plant's fault I'm all screwed up! Clearly, I shouldn't eat plants because plants are the CAUSE of it."

When in fact, if they would stop their bad habits, in this case let's just say its meat-eating, and start good habits, eating plants, their issues would go away.

Why do you have taste and texture issues? Were you born with it? Did it develop over time for some reason?

Also, you're telling me you have a taste and texture issue with ALL PLANTS?

If that were true, you would be dead. Animal products have little nutrition in them compared to plants. Protein and perhaps iron are the few abundant nutrients in meat.

You have to eat some kind of plant if you're going to get all of your other nutrients to stay alive. You won't survive long on supplements alone.

HCLF vegans eat a TON of bananas, rice, bread, pasta, potatoes. There's no way you would be underweight on this diet unless you don't eat enough. If you have a seriously fast metabolism, then top it off with nuts and avocado. All of the high calories and nutrients of plants without any of the unpleasant gunk you get with meat/cheese.

gunk = cholesterol, saturated fats, hormones, antibiotics.

Hormones come from the animal itself. I'm not talking about added hormones.

It's hard for me to believe someone cannot survive on a high-carb vegan diet because it's been eaten by people around the world for thousands of years. Even if you have an allergy to particular foods, you're not allergic to ALL foods. If you cannot digest ANY plant foods, then something is really, really wrong. That's not "omnivorous", that's called being terribly ill. It's not a natural state to be in.

If someone was doing bad on the Eskimo diet, I wouldn't be surprised because they're a "fringe" group. Most societies don't eat their way, and even the Eskimos themselves have health problems and very short lives.

I don't think you're going to find any person who can't eat enough whole foods like rice, bananas, potatoes, bread, pasta, beans with some veggies and fruit. They're not going to be allergic to ALL of that. There's many different types of beans. There's many different types of grains. These foods are filling and cheap and you should eat like a horse. Under-eating will always make you feel not your best.

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