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Vegetarianism/ Veganism

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Just to clarify the "murder" comparison I used.

Thats from some posts above this:

 

 

So You think its hypocrisy to try and reduce suffering, helping to ensure everyone has food by going vegan? Just because "nature is cruel"?

Hm..oh well. So I am pretty sure You have no problem with the killing of children or murder per se because, well, animals kill their young sometimes and animals kill each other?

Honestly, thats not really an argument ;-). With that You could justify about anything.

 

So You see, I did in no way compare meat eating people to murderers. I reacted to pudding saying it didn't matter that animals suffer because nature was cruel and thats that.

I simply wanted to show that with that kind of "argument" You could justify just about anything like murder etc.. because .. yes murder is cruel, but nature Is cruel, so what?

 

I hope I clarified my stance on that.

I can agree with reducing suffering. I do not like the way veal is said to be made. I find it appalling you could do something to animals like that. There is very little I could do on that though. People enjoy that type of meat and until a law comes into place over it I can't do much over it.

 

I don't look down on the people who do enjoy it. It is their taste and while I find the process wrong I cannot find that much fault with someone who enjoys it.

 

I may have taken that entirely wrong but I still can't see how using a murderer helps a argument at all. Might just be me but yeah.

 

I see her point behind the nature part. It is a very wonderful and cruel thing at all times. I've viewed nature like that for a while now. It can create and destroy life at will. Humans/animals are a part of nature and can do the very same things.

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There will be no laws placed on the meat industry until there is 1) someone with money who cares or 2) a huge nationwide uproar.

 

That's just kind of the pattern observed. No one cares about the meat industry, nothing changes.

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@demonicvampiregirl neither me or Severus will look down on someone. just tried to argue.

 

@pudding..so much hate...you don't want to argue, you just want to quarrel...

 

@lightbird...maybe i would eat this kind of meat...but i can't. it's an interesting idea.

 

btw i am not rich..i can't afford a cow...but i'd like to have one...or a pig.

I was merely stating that cruelty is not single to humans. All creatures can be cruel and I'm not going to stop eating meat, even though I recognize the cruelty. It made assumptions about me as a result that could be considered rude and came across as rather hostile.

 

Hallar, I am not trying to quarrel. You're reading into something that's not there. I may have responded to hostility with hostility but I'm not trying to argue. To be honest, I'm not sure where you are getting that from. I'm simply defending my omnivorism.

 

Also, losing weight is nessissarily healthy. Thin isn't always fit. That's a false idea created by the media.

 

Cannibalism was commonly practiced in earlier centuries but it has been linked to brain diseases. We did used to eat our enemies while we were in tribes.

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There will be no laws placed on the meat industry until there is 1) someone with money who cares or 2) a huge nationwide uproar.

 

That's just kind of the pattern observed. No one cares about the meat industry, nothing changes.

I can agree. I do wish there could be something done more for their care so they are not abused in the way they are but I can agree with MasterWeavile in the since that trying to destroy the farm factories right now is going to be more harmful than helpful. It needs improved but not taken away. To many people on this earth that it is needed.

 

I am against the abuse that they do to the animals but not the service they provide for the simple reason as if it was just depended on free range right now there wouldn't be enough to go around at all.

 

I was merely stating that cruelty is not single to humans. All creatures can be cruel and I'm not going to stop eating meat, even though I recognize the cruelty.

 

Pretty much a summed up version of what I feel. It is horrible to see those things but it isn't just humans that do it either. All animals do.

 

Cannibalism was commonly practiced in earlier centuries but it has been linked to brain diseases. We did used to eat our enemies while we were in tribes.

 

Oh so there is evidence for it. I figured there was because obviously there has been cases of it as of a couple years ago but to what extent in the past no.

 

Edited by demonicvampiregirl

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Pretty much a summed up version of what I feel. It is horrible to see those things but it isn't just humans that do it either. All animals do.

But how does this justify factory farming? Factory farming is not natural, if we want to talk about nature here.

Only because someone else does something, should we do it too?

And no, I don't think nature is cruel. Cruelty - in my book - is pretty much a human thing. Animals act out of instinct, not with the intent to hurt, or just because they CAN hurt someone or derive pleasure from it or justify it with any other argument.

Animals don't have a choice. A lion can't prepare a nice piece of seitan for himself.. humans can. And thats why all those nature is cruel, animals do it all the time comparisons simply don't apply.

An animal does not have the choice, a human does. We can choose to be cruel or not to be cruel.

 

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But how does this justify factory farming? Factory farming is not natural, if we want to talk about nature here.

Only because someone else does something, should we do it too?

And no, I don't think nature is cruel. Cruelty - in my book - is pretty much a human thing. Animals act out of instinct, not with the intent to hurt,  or just because they CAN hurt someone or derive pleasure from it  or justify it with any other argument.

Animals don't have a choice. A lion can't prepare a nice piece of seitan for himself.. humans can. And thats why all those  nature is cruel, animals do it all the time comparisons simply don't apply.

An animal does not have the choice, a human does. We can choose to be cruel or not to be cruel.

I'm going to have to bring up cats and orcas again. Not only is it their choice to kill or not kill mice and seals, sometimes they do not even eat it after playing with it.

 

Humans are animals. Animals are a part of nature. Humans are a part of nature. Anything we create is a part of nature. Don't think the human species is somehow above the rest of this planet. We're all a part of nature and everything we do is a part of nature. It isn't that the lion cannot prepare the seitan, it isn't interested in it. Just like some humans are not interested in it.

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Farm animals wont perish because they are only kept for being eaten. No carnivores--> no farm animals that rely on people.

Sorry, don't have the time to reply at length, but I did want to respond to this.

 

They *would* die. They'd actually have to be killed, and then the corpses burnt. I'm afraid it really is that simple. They couldn't be turned loose because a) Farmers would not be able to keep them, or keep the pasture for them as they would have to turn to arable farming in order to remain in business. B) With the majority of the countryside enclosed there would be no where for them to range, therefore if they weren't killed they'd starve because they couldn't get to new food scources. c) Those that did managed to acess food scources would find the only real scource of food were the crops that were being grown for human consumption. Which would turn them into pest animals that, again, would have to be killed to protect the human food chain.

 

Please. Do some research into farming. *Real* research into the lives of farmers and their communities, not just reading links from pro-Vegan websites online. Anyone that knows farmers and the farming community will tell you exactly the same thing - if all demand for meat & animal products were to cease it would inevitably lead to mass culls.

 

Edit: Bloody emoticons. *goes to bed*

Edited by TikindiDragon

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Sorry, don't have the time to reply at length, but I did want to respond to this.

 

They *would* die. They'd actually have to be killed, and then the corpses burnt. I'm afraid it really is that simple. They couldn't be turned loose because a) Farmers would not be able to keep them, or keep the pasture for them as they would have to turn to arable farming in order to remain in business. cool.gif With the majority of the countryside enclosed there would be no where for them to range, therefore if they weren't killed they'd starve because they couldn't get to new food scources. c) Those that did managed to acess food scources would find the only real scource of food were the crops that were being grown for human consumption. Which would turn them into pest animals that, again, would have to be killed to protect the human food chain.

 

Please. Do some research into farming. *Real* research into the lives of farmers and their communities, not just reading links from pro-Vegan websites online. Anyone that knows farmers and the farming community will tell you exactly the same thing - if all demand for meat & animal products were to cease it would inevitably lead to mass culls.

 

Edit: Bloody emoticons. *goes to bed*

And that is regardless of them becoming invasive. In the US, particularly where I live, there is a MASSIVE feral hog problem. A lot of them are descended from farm escapees and they reek havok on the ecosystem and can be dangerous to pets and humans. In some places in the US, if you catch a wild hog, it HAS to be killed, it legally cannot be released back into the wild because they do not belong in the US.

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Farm animals wont perish because they are only kept for being eaten. No carnivores--> no farm animals that rely on people.

 

Did you even know that there are already breeds of livestock that have gone extinct?

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But whats the difference between the animals You say You love and those You eat? Pigs are way more intelligent than dogs or cats, yet they are still eaten.

Cultural standards for what's a food animal, for one.

 

I see nothing inherently wrong with eating cats or dogs, honestly. Or horses. Or anything. If it's edible, I see nothing inherently wrong with eating it.

 

However, I live in a culture that generally regards certain animals as for food and others as for companionship. That's the reason we don't eat those animals.

 

If I lived in a society that regarded cats and dogs as acceptable food animals, I'd have no problem with eating them if the taste/texture was tolerable to me.

 

 

Why did you stop eating meat? Because I cant stand the tghought that a living breathing creature had to suffer through a horrible existence and a terrible death just to satisfy my irrational desire for meat

Irrational? Try natural--humans are not herbivores. As omnivores it's a natural desire. It's fine to make the choice to not comply with it for yourself. But never force that on others or demonize them for not having the same view. (Also never force it on a pet that's not naturally an herbivore)

 

 

 

Basically how I see it is this: don't like/want to eat meat? That's great for you--and if we're ever dining together, I'll respect that and make sure you have something you like available to eat. Hell, if it makes you really uncomfortable to have me eat meat, I'll even try to have something else for me (though if you're not even comfortable with milk or eggs then we're gonna have a problem).

 

Wanna demonize me because I need meat (and eggs, and dairy) to actually survive (I just can't make it on an all-vegan/vegetarian diet)? Then you can just take your holier-than-thou attitude and do something with it that I'm pretty sure I'd get a warn if I actually said what it was.

 

Edit for clarity: I mean this in general--the "you" is a general you and not specifically meant only for certain people here. It's my general attitude towards the vegan/vegetarian communities.

Edited by KageSora

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I'm going to have to bring up cats and orcas again. Not only is it their choice to kill or not kill mice and seals, sometimes they do not even eat it after playing with it.

 

Humans are animals. Animals are a part of nature. Humans are a part of nature. Anything we create is a part of nature. Don't think the human species is somehow above the rest of this planet. We're all a part of nature and everything we do is a part of nature. It isn't that the lion cannot prepare the seitan, it isn't interested in it. Just like some humans are not interested in it.

 

@ylangylang:

Did you even know that there are already breeds of livestock that have gone extinct?

Cats and dogs don't have a choice in that they HAVE to hunt to eat. And they play because thats how they learn to hunt. Its their instinct that tells them to.

And no, I do most certainly not think humanity is above nature.

And WE have a choice to prepare seitan instead of eating meat or hunting or whatever. The lion does not have a choice because its naturally "programmed" to hunt and eat meat.

But honestly, Your line of argument doesn't have anything to do with why humans should or should not eat meat.

Following Your argument consequently, You should not sit here arguing with me via internet and computer, but be outside and hunt for food.

It is not really relevant for this discussion if or if not animals consume meat , hunt other animals or play with their food.

The question is whether humans do it or not.

I agree with you inasmuch as I consider mankind animals too, but a very highly developed kind of animal that is capable of reflecting the consequences of his behaviour on its environment.

So we can think about what we do, why we do it and what the consequences of our actions will be.

 

@ylangylang:

Did you even know that there are already breeds of livestock that have gone extinct?

Certainly I know that. Its a quite widely known fact.

There would be no necessity for an breed to become extinct, at least not for the traditional breeds, that were not specially "created" for factory farming. I don't see why those animals couldn't be kept just to have them, look at them, like pets.

Old races are being kept alive that way.

 

@ tikindidragon:

I have done my research and I'm really starting to resent the fact that obviously i am being taken for a fanatic that has no idea about anything and is simply parrotting some sentences from a pro vegan website.

At least I have shown some links to back my arguments.

As for Your arguement.. a "real live" farmer is very much interested to keep demand for meat stable and even better, rising, because he makes money that way to live by.

If there were a gradually decrease in demand for animal based food, there wouldnt in all probability just not the same number of animals being "produced" .

Less demand, less product.

Even if I repeat myself.. I cannot see and scenario, where demand for animal products will go from 100% to 0% in such a short time to make it impossible to adapt production numbers.

 

Furthermore - even if this might shock you - even if the need for mass culls would arise, what would be the difference for the animals being concerned? Their life would not change, only be a bit shorter, they would be killed in rather painful and horrific ways. Not much of a change for them.

But there's one big difference: If there were mass culls because there was zero demand for meat it would be the last generation of animals that died. There wouldn't be a new generation being "produced".End of story.

Literally billions of animals would not die anymore after that last generation that would be killed - if that would happen.

 

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My hunt for food was just completed since I went outside and chased down a tasty burrito. Now I return to my den to play.

 

With hunting, the parts of the animals killed are used. When cats 'play', the things they kill just sit and rot (Which is being consumed by bacteria but the cat doesn't know that). Based on your post, you would rather an entire species go extinct and be murdered for no reason rather than they being killed for food. It seems like you aren't looking at the consequences of your actions like you're saying we should.

 

Also, pets evolves from purpose. Cats killed mice (preventing plague by the kill) while dogs aided in hunts or killed game. They transformed into pets. Moreover, they are a lot cheeper to care for than a cow. A cow probably couldn't fit through my doorway and I certainly couldn't keep on in my apartment.

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Certainly I know that. Its a quite widely known fact.

There would be no necessity for an breed to become extinct, at least not for the traditional breeds, that were not specially "created" for factory farming. I don't see why  those animals couldn't be kept just to have them, look at them, like pets.

Old races are being kept alive that way.

So, you're basically saying that you do know that more modern breeds will die out, and even for the "traditional" breeds quite a lot of places have their "traditional" breed absolutely wiped out because they couldn't compete with "modern" ones. In places where there are "traditional" breeds it's not that they're raised as pets, they're raised as a part of conservation strategies. Not only that, but I somehow don't see a farmer going like "oh yes I will keep 100 herds of cows as a pet, yes good" thus, even if we did keep "traditional" breeds they will also, to a large degree, die out, or at least won't have the same numbers as they are now.

 

I would call this thoughtlessness, but oh well...

 

even if the need for mass culls would arise, what would be the difference for the animals being concerned?

 

You have never seen farms killing off livestock because of a disease outbreak, have you. As you haven't, I'll now describe the procedure, as it is likely similar to what will happen in your fantasy scenario.

 

They're buried alive.

 

Which not only leads to MORE soil and water pollution, but is also a huge nightmare for everyone involved, as well as the animals; at least there are pushes for butchering practices to become more humane. In an event of a disease outbreak there is not.

Edited by ylangylang

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Irrational? Try natural--humans are not herbivores. As omnivores it's a natural desire. It's fine to make the choice to not comply with it for yourself. But never force that on others or demonize them for not having the same view. (Also never force it on a pet that's not naturally an herbivore)

 

 

 

Basically how I see it is this: don't like/want to eat meat? That's great for you--and if we're ever dining together, I'll respect that and make sure you have something you like available to eat. Hell, if it makes you really uncomfortable to have me eat meat, I'll even try to have something else for me (though if you're not even comfortable with milk or eggs then we're gonna have a problem).

 

Wanna demonize me because I need meat (and eggs, and dairy) to actually survive (I just can't make it on an all-vegan/vegetarian diet)? Then you can just take your holier-than-thou attitude and do something with it that I'm pretty sure I'd get a warn if I actually said what it was.

Irrational inasmuch as its not necessary for me to survive, being - as you so kindly pointed out- an omnivore, I can perfectly survive on a vegan diet.

 

If You for reasons of health cannot live on a vegan or vegetarian diet, I am very sorry for you and I certainly wouldn't force You to consume something that made You ill.

I would consider that a reasonable and rational excetion.

 

 

And now I am starting to rant:

How the *** are you all implying I would demonize You, call You murderers and whatever???

I am not forcing anyony not to eat meat, but I''ll be damned if I stand by and do not argue my cause in a thread that IS about vegetarianism/veganism?

 

Its has been hinted I did not do my research and now You start about "demonizing" ??

I am trying to argue my cause rationally and I try to back it up with links, which is more than most "meat eating supporters" here do.

I would really ask You to show me the common courtesy of reading my posts completely and not stating I demonize You or anyone else.

I AM ARGUING MY CAUSE - no more and no less.

 

 

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But how does this justify factory farming? Factory farming is not natural, if we want to talk about nature here.

Only because someone else does something, should we do it too?

And no, I don't think nature is cruel. Cruelty - in my book - is pretty much a human thing. Animals act out of instinct, not with the intent to hurt, or just because they CAN hurt someone or derive pleasure from it or justify it with any other argument.

Animals don't have a choice. A lion can't prepare a nice piece of seitan for himself.. humans can. And thats why all those nature is cruel, animals do it all the time comparisons simply don't apply.

An animal does not have the choice, a human does. We can choose to be cruel or not to be cruel.

Factory farming is justified by the fact that there are what 7 billion people currently occupying this world.

 

Can you honestly say in the time that it takes to grow a cow and have it slaughtered that there would be enough of free ranged ones to go around?

 

No it is clearly impossible which is why it was made to begin with.

 

Yes the conditions are horrible for some of them. Yes some of the factory farms need to go out of business due to how cruelly they treat their live stock but surely not ALL of them.

 

It needs improved not removed from the earth. It serves its purpose and while it is not doing it to the standard we all would appreciate seeing it still does it's job by keeping food on the shelves.

 

I for one refuse to ever become a vegetarian or go vegan. I enjoy meat so however it is that it needs to be produced then so be it for the time being. Until a law is put into place that makes it impossible for places to so easily abuse their live stock we just have to deal with how we have it.

 

Do not like factory farmed meat/vegies? Simple there are alternatives for you to use but do not force me or say I am in the wrong for using what is provided and what is cheapest for me to feed myself and my family.

 

 

You say nature is not cruel?

 

Look at snow. It is a beautiful and natural thing but yet besides fire one of the most destructive pieces of nature in my book. It comes and coats the area in a frozen water that doesn't melt until temperature rises and the trees and plants die out for the winter. It can take the lives of any animal that is not well prepared for the harsh coldness it brings. Humans can leave their pets outside and die.

 

Look at what happened over in South Dakota last year alone. A sudden blizzard came in and killed thousands of live stock and costs even thousands more to the people who owned them and you want to say nature is not cruel? That was nature acting on it's own. It caught everyone off guard and killed plenty of cattle and other animals that were unprotected and out in the cold on their own.

 

It was not a human act.

 

You claim that animals act out of instinct. That is correct but do they not fight and kill each other just like humans do? Do they not go and kill things for the fun of it? I've seen my own cats kill mice and rabbits and just leave them for us to see what good of a job they've done.

 

Humans technically don't need all the fancy food we've came up with ourselves over the years. We did it ourselves otherwise we'd be nothing more than the cave men that was before us.

 

It is not cruel for a pack of wolves do hunt down a deer for them to eat and survive off of but it's cruel for us humans to eat a deer? I don't see the logic there. They eat meat just like we do. We as humans have a choice to eat plants or animals. We are omnivores not herbivores. We eat both of them it is not morally wrong for us to do either of them. It's a CHOICE and neither of them are wrong.

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Mostly because you heavily implied/suggested that I was alright with killing humans. Which is illegal and brings up a lot more complications than killing cattle and usually considered negative. Just like you, we are defending ourselves. But you made it a bit more personal by saying things about me personally.

 

Want a link? Here you go:

 

http://www.westonaprice.org/vegetarianism-...o-go-vegetarian

 

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I think one of the big problems is that veganism is by its very nature, radical vegetarianism. In other words, it is very hard to discuss reasons for being vegan and such without coming across as holier than thou, even if it is completely unintentional.

Edited by Nectaris

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Vegans and vegetarians are usually very unhealthy because they don't get the nutrients they need. My Mediterranean heritage has given me anemia. To be completely honest, no. I would not go vegan because I need to eat meat. Nearly all iron supplement vitamins I have eaten have given me a negative reaction (usually vomiting) and I passed out when I skipped eating meat. I need meat in my diet to remain healthy. Would I die without it? Maybe, I don't know if my anemia would be that serious. But I don't want to find out.

 

I'm sorry but who is going to keep a cow in their house? Adults have enough trouble dealing with children, they don't need cows as well. And the cow isn't going to make them any money, it's just going to take it. Farm animals have become reliant on humans to live. If we go vegan, they all will perish because we won't need them any more.

 

Morality is both a byproduct of evolution and also varies from person to person. Trying to preach your morals onto someone else is like trying to convert people to your religion. Sometimes, they just don't want to because they don't agree with you and their ideals are different. The very 'good' that you are trying to do can come off as 'bad' because you are being pushy in an area where there is not one answer. There is no good and evil in the universe. It's a fictional ideal. Let me ask you a few questions that I would like for people to answer:

Is farm factory bad?

Can it be improved?

Why should people stop eating meat?

(If applicable) Why did you stop eating meat?

Woah, woah, woah. Let's take a step back here. Usually unhealthy? Where is that even coming from? You're talking to a life-long, healthy vegetarian wink.gif All the vegetarians and vegans I know are actually healthier than a lot of omnivores. Vegetarianism/veganism can help prevent a lot of diseases, actually. I get all the nutrients I need just fine. I don't actually take an supplements. I get all my vitamins and such from my regular food. If you're going to start stating "facts" like that, please cite some sources.

 

I don't want to keep a cow in my house, but I do plan to have rescue cows someday. They won't live in my actual house, but they will be on my property. I will adopt them from a farm animal rescue and I won't do it for money, I will do it because I love cows and they all deserve happy wonderful homes.

 

And to answer your questions:

Yes.

If people care enough.

I never stopped eating meat, I've been a vegetarian my entire life. I love animals and I believe they deserve much better than we give them. They experience emotions and many are very intelligent.

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Irrational inasmuch as its not necessary for me to survive, being - as you so kindly pointed out- an omnivore, I can perfectly survive on a vegan diet.

 

If You for reasons of health cannot live on a vegan or vegetarian diet, I am very sorry for you and I certainly wouldn't force You to consume something that made You ill.

I would consider that a reasonable and rational excetion.

 

 

And now I am starting to rant:

How the *** are you all implying I would demonize You, call You murderers  and whatever???

I am not forcing anyony not to eat meat, but I''ll be damned if I stand by and do not argue my cause in a thread that IS about vegetarianism/veganism?

 

Its has been hinted I did not do my research and now You start about "demonizing" ??

I am trying to argue my cause rationally and I try to back it up with links, which is more than most "meat eating supporters" here do.

I would really ask You to show me the common courtesy of reading my posts completely and not stating I demonize You or anyone else.

I AM ARGUING  MY CAUSE - no more and no less.

I'd still say it's not irrational. It's not irrational to chose one diet over the other (unless you're picking a diet that you can't actually tolerate).

 

And I don't want your pity. You can take your "feeling very sorry for me" and also do things with that that would get me a warn if I said it. I don't want or need you to feel sorry for me, and I find it rather insulting that you feel the need to feel sorry for me when I'm perfectly happy with what I can and can't eat in general.

 

It's not a strictly medical thing in the sense of "I'll become sick if I eat it", it's a "I literally cannot force myself to eat things if I cannot tolerate the taste or texture". Meat is a good way for me to get protein as a result of that. (Which I think might tie in with being an aspie?)

 

 

Though, I will say sorry that I didn't make it clear--I meant "general you" with that bottom comment, not "you in particular". It's how I feel in general towards the vegan/vegetarian community.

 

I think one of the big problems is that veganism is by its very nature, radical vegetarianism.  In other words, it is very hard to discuss reasons for being vegan and such without coming across as holier than though, even if it is completely unintentional.

Generally I find it really just comes down to tone.

 

I'm perfectly fine with somebody saying "I don't agree with current practices used in mass farming of meat animals" or "I can live healthily off a diet that consists only of plants and plant-based products, so I chose not to raise animals for the sole intent of killing and eating them or for hunting them."

 

 

What I DON'T like is the "Killing animals for food is just like murder!" Or "You wouldn't eat a human baby, so why would you eat [insert adorable food-animal baby of your choice here]" kind of stuff.

 

The first makes it clear that it's a personal decision based on their views on life and the preservation of it and their dislike of the treatment for it in mass-farming methods. The second is an "I'm so much better than you, you filthy murdering scum" kind of attitude.

 

Edit for clarity:

 

To be fair, most often I come across people who are very sane and polite. More often than the people who demonize people who eat meat, anyway. But there IS a problem section with the vegan/vegetarian communities that do demonize people for choosing to eat meat.

Edited by KageSora

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Woah, woah, woah. Let's take a step back here. Usually unhealthy? Where is that even coming from? You're talking to a life-long, healthy vegetarian wink.gif All the vegetarians and vegans I know are actually healthier than a lot of omnivores. Vegetarianism/veganism can help prevent a lot of diseases, actually. I get all the nutrients I need just fine. I don't actually take an supplements. I get all my vitamins and such from my regular food. If you're going to start stating "facts" like that, please cite some sources.

 

I don't want to keep a cow in my house, but I do plan to have rescue cows someday. They won't live in my actual house, but they will be on my property. I will adopt them from a farm animal rescue and I won't do it for money, I will do it because I love cows and they all deserve happy wonderful homes.

 

And to answer your questions:

Yes.

If people care enough.

I never stopped eating meat, I've been a vegetarian my entire life. I love animals and I believe they deserve much better than we give them. They experience emotions and many are very intelligent.

I'm referring to vitamin deficiencies. You wouldn't really notice but vegans especially consume a lot less of them, as do vegetarians. Here are some of the vitamins vegans usually miss (Vegetarians have the chance to make them up, especially with milk):

Omega-3 fatty acids

Vitamin B12

Calcium

Vitamin D

Iron

 

 

For a list of what happens when you don't have them, look here: Missing vitamins

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I think one of the problems with discussing veganism is that fact that everyone treats you like you don't know what you're talking about and assumes that you think you're better than them..

 

I really don't think Severus is speaking from a holier-than-thou position, I think they're speaking about something they're passionate about and what seems to you like fallacious argument "just to be right" is another person being desperate at the fact that you don't understand where they're coming from. And you can't really say they're shoving it down your throat, as this is a discussion. Of course they're going to attempt to persuade you to see where they're coming from.

 

I'm sorry. I'm just really fed up with constantly being bombarded by people telling me I'm stupid or pretentious or that I haven't done enough research for my choices. The people around me are A LOT more condescending than any vegans I've spoken to, even though I accept their choices and don't bring up my diet unless they ask/the situation arises.

 

I'm referring to vitamin deficiencies. You wouldn't really notice but vegans especially consume a lot less of them, as do vegetarians. Here are some of the vitamins vegans usually miss (Vegetarians have the chance to make them up, especially with milk):

Omega-3 fatty acids

Vitamin B12

Calcium

Vitamin D

Iron

 

I take supplements for omega-3, B12, and calcium. Vitamin D is found in many fruits (especially oranges), and iron is found in leafy greens. All of these can be supported by supplements, but of course that's where the real money issue comes to play. A regular multivitamin and being more conscious of what you eat goes a long way, though, but supplements are pricey if you find you need them.

Edited by Lila

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I know plenty of healthy vegans, though smile.gif

What you don't seem to realize is that those listed vitamins come in many forms other than meat.

Omega-3 fatty acids - found in broccoli, kiwi, chia seeds, pecans, and hazel nuts.

Vitamin B12 - is in many soy products and bran cereals. Also swiss cheese (does not apply to vegans obviously)

Calcium - spinach, kale, cabbage, broccoli, brussel sprouts

Vitamin D - The sun's rays are the primary source for many people.

Iron - spinach, chickpeas, pinto beans, kidney beans, almonds, cashews, and walnuts.

I could go on and on...

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I'm sorry. I'm just really fed up with constantly being bombarded by people telling me I'm stupid or pretentious or that I haven't done enough research for my choices. The people around me are A LOT more condescending than any vegans I've spoken to, even though I accept their choices and don't bring up my diet unless they ask/the situation arises.

No one here is from what I can see.

 

I think people are having issues with how he's either phrasing things or he is actually looking down at people.

 

Irrational inasmuch as its not necessary for me to survive, being - as you so kindly pointed out- an omnivore, I can perfectly survive on a vegan diet.

 

If You for reasons of health cannot live on a vegan or vegetarian diet, I am very sorry for you and I certainly wouldn't force You to consume something that made You ill.

I would consider that a reasonable and rational excetion.

 

When you are saying things like that that makes people see you in a holier than thou attitude.

 

I don't appreciate that Severus seems to think that if you are not on a vegan or vegetarian diet by nature you are in the wrong for being a omnivore. His post right here seems to make it sound like that if you are not one or the other and are a meat eater that they feel sorry for you and it is immoral.

 

I eat meat by a choice and choose not to be vegan/vegetarian. I don't need someone feeling sorry for me because I do not eat the way they do.

 

Be a vegetarian/vegan all you want but I don't need pity over it either. I chose this life style just as others do and see nothing wrong with it just as you don't see anything wrong with yours. I'm not going to say you are either and I don't need to be pitied.

 

 

 

Edit: I had to edit the quote as I didn't see you edited it before hand so I had the wrong one in. >_<

Edited by demonicvampiregirl

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The problem isn't that they're lacking in certain foods or even that you need to buy supplements. It's that too many people rush head first into a diet without doing proper research. You need to remember that when you are getting rid of a food group (Meat), you may also be losing a steady income of vitamins that that you may take for granted and need to find a replacement source. Many people don't take multivitamins (Vegetarians and non-vegetarians alike) but it is easier to lose balance when you are cutting out something that may provide vitamins you take for granted.

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Well then I didn't read all of his posts.

 

I'll admit with all of the peta2 junk I pick up, it makes it a little easier to accidentally drop some judgmental sounding things.

 

disclaimer: not a peta person. Just pick up their flyers because I'm addicted to flyers.

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