Gun rights/control/ownership

[philpot123]

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

The oh-so-familiar second amendment. The supreme court has held in the past that rather than the right to bear arms applying only to the "well regulated militia," the right to keep and bear arms applies to "the people" as a whole, as an individual right. But also that it is not an unlimited right, and common sense regulations must be enforced. Things like age restrictions, not allowing felons to purchase guns, and restrictions on open/concealed carry are all fairly common sense stuff that can be debated individually.

 

So. I want to open this thread up to ideas. Opinions.

 

What is your opinion about gun carry?

 

What are the gun laws like in your state or country? Too harsh? Too lax?

 

Do you own guns? Do you shoot guns? Do you think civilians should be ALLOWED to own and shoot guns?

 

 

Now, obviously you can post your own opinion without any justification if you wish. But this is intended to be a discussion, with opinions based on reasoning and facts presented, and the particulars of that reasoning or those facts discussed.

 

Now for my opinion.

 

---

 

I like guns. I own 7 of various models and calibers. I have no small children in my house, and none of my guns are kept loaded. I have a single automatic pistol that is kept with a magazine inserted without a round chambered for go-to defense, given that I can have it out and a round chambered in a matter of seconds.

 

I fully support private gun ownership, open and concealed carry, hunting, recreational shooting, and everything that comes with it, including an unenforced individual responsibility to be well versed in firearm safety and usage.

 

I'm also of the opinion that there are some idiots in the world who shouldn't own a gun ever. But their stupidity doesn't deprive the general population of their right to a firearm anymore than stupid drivers should impede others ability to obtain a driver's license.

 

I also believe there are people with severe phobias of guns that certainly should never be made to hold one or use one against their wishes. But their comfortableness (or lack thereof) around guns should not deprive me of my right to own one, anymore than a Baptist pastor should deprive you of your right to drink alcohol because he is uncomfortable with it.

 

Let the disagreements begin

Edited June 25, 2012 by philpot123

[Rosedamai]

Phil, could you add "what are the different laws in your country" as well? Thanks

Edited June 25, 2012 by ylangylang

[philpot123]

Phil, could you add "what are the different laws in your country" as well? Thanks

Ah! Excuse me, added I'm used to discussing this on fairly US centered gun forums thanks for correcting me.

[kittygrl]

personally i believe normal everyday people should not have guns, we dont need them. it'd make life easier and less dangerous.

[philpot123]

personally i believe normal everyday people should not have guns, we dont need them. it'd make life easier and less dangerous.

Why don't we need them? I need mine for home protection, recreational shooting, a useful tool, a productive item to own in case of economic collapse (for bartering), and, as the lovely Mr. Thomas Jefferson said, "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"

 

 

[epicguy10000]

FINNALY a thread in general discussion I can relate to!

Me and my dad go shooting all the time, he owns a few guns for self defense, I have no interest in finding his guns because when he takes me shooting, I KNOW how dangerous gun are I KNOW what they can do, and I enjoy living a nice long life, I know that once I'm old enough I am going to buy a self defense gun ASAP, you just don't know in these times

 

And I do think civilians should be allowed to own guns, I understand the worry people have, but I feel much safer knowing if someone were to break into my dads while I'm asleep, that I'll be safe

I'm not going to mention the governments recent terrible mess up involving weapons....

[kittygrl]

i live in an area where there at least 3 shootings everyday <=/ guns are too easily accessible and there are too many people being killed cuz of them...

 

shooting someone its over and done with, but without one you'd have to plan a murder.

there'd be less murders, less home invasions, less robberies, and all around safer. less schools would having mass murder shootings and life would be easier. no one needs a gun.

 

and tyranny of government? if you shot someone that being a tyrant in the government im sure you'd get life in prison. and what ben franklin say rarely fits with today

Edited June 25, 2012 by kittygrl

[philpot123]

i live in an area where there at least 3 shootings everyday <=/ guns are too easily accessible and there are too many people being killed cuz of them...

 

shooting someone its over and done with, but without one you'd have to plan a murder.

there'd be less murders, less home invasions, less robberies, and all around safer. less schools would having mass murder shootings and life would be easier. no one needs a gun.

 

and tyranny of government? if you shot someone that being a tyrant in the government im sure you'd get life in prison no

All the things you mention typically involve illegally obtained guns, not guns purchased through legal channels. Instituting private ownership gun bans wouldn't get rid of those things, you realize that?

 

...Virtually never are murderers the ordinary, law-abiding people against whom gun bans are aimed. Almost without exception, murderers are extreme aberrants with lifelong histories of crime, substance abuse, psychopathology, mental retardation and/or irrational violence against those around them, as well as other hazardous behavior, e.g., automobile and gun accidents."

 

-- Don B. Kates, writing on statistical patterns in gun crime

[epicguy10000]

I can see your concern kitty, I had that feeling before, but if someone broke into your house wouldn't you want something to defend yourself with? but like I said, I see your concern with guns

[kittygrl]

what is the robber going to have that would make me scared? he wouldnt have a gun. what a knife? pfff.

 

it just what i think. we do not need guns. and there's no way to change my mind on that. i have had friend that was shot for no reason, she was walking her dog and someone shot her. if pedestrians weren't allowed to have guns, she'd probably still be alive

Edited June 25, 2012 by kittygrl

[epicguy10000]

Most robbers actually have guns...and without something to defend youself they could easily seriously injure you or do even worse so wouldn't you want something to defend yourself?

[kittygrl]

and i meant if there were no guns the robber wouldnt have one

[epicguy10000]

I see your point now....trust me I would love to have a world where noone could harm me but thats just not going to happen, so at this point, all we can do is defend ourselves

[philpot123]

and i meant if there were no guns the robber wouldnt have one

You'll never be able to rid the world of guns. Like I said, statistically, the majority of gun crimes are committed with guns that are illegally obtained. Gun bans ensure the ONLY people with guns are the "bad guys," the cops, and the military.

 

And clearly you've never looked down the business end of a knife held by someone who means business if you're saying "pfft" to a knife

Edited June 25, 2012 by philpot123

[kittygrl]

i think more my issue is the fact we HAVE to defend ourselves, and the fact the cops didnt even try to find who shot her. but thats beside the point. i think it would be better if somehow guns were made not harm humans, but then wouldnt it be hard to hunt recreationally..

[philpot123]

i think more my issue is the fact we HAVE to defend ourselves, and the fact the cops didnt even try to find who shot her. but thats beside the point. i think it would be better if somehow guns were made not harm humans, but then wouldnt it be hard to hunt recreationally..

Here's the thing, we've got "perfect world" solutions, and we've got real world solutions. In a perfect world, firearms would be completely unnecessary for self defense, and anyone wanting to practice marksmanship would have non-potentially-harmful ways of doing so. But the fact is we will never get rid of guns. Cops can't "protect" us. They're there to enforce laws they see being broken and to TRY to find perpetrators AFTER the fact. It's up to the individuals to defend themselves.

[epicguy10000]

Heres your problem, your blaming it on the guns, my dad told me first time we went shooting "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"

[philpot123]

"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."

 

Translated, a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.

[Walker]

I don't have an issue with gun ownership in general, as long as you're being practical and safe about it. I don't feel like people should be able to carry guns in public, urban places though. I think for situations like that, mace or a taser is MUCH better, very painful and good for self defense when you're going out. However, just letting people carry guns where ever the hell they want can get dangerous. That being said, I don't have an issue with people having them in homes in case a robber comes along or taking them out once and a while to go hunting.

 

As long as you aren't so attached to your gun you don't know when to leave it behind...

[philpot123]

I don't have an issue with gun ownership in general, as long as you're being practical and safe about it. I don't feel like people should be able to carry guns in public, urban places though. I think for situations like that, mace or a taser is MUCH better, very painful and good for self defense when you're going out. However, just letting people carry guns where ever the hell they want can get dangerous. That being said, I don't have an issue with people having them in homes in case a robber comes along or taking them out once and a while to go hunting.

 

As long as you aren't so attached to your gun you don't know when to leave it behind...

What about concealed carry? I understand not wanting a .45 strapped to your hip causing a commotion downtown, but urban areas is exactly where I'd want my gun the most! Mace isn't always effective, and if you miss with your taser? An actual taser that fires the barbs attached to the gun has a limited range and won't do much if you miss. A gun has better accuracy and multiple chances.

[Red Dragonette]

You don't always have to purchase a gun illegally to commit crimes. You can be an ordinary law-abiding citizen at first and then legally purchase the gun. But then sometime later, you're going to be corrupted and you'll eventually start to commit crimes. I mean look at the Trayvon Martin case for example; George Zimmerman the neighborhood watch captain just killed an innocent boy because he thought he was 'suspicious' and he lied about killing Trayvon in self-defense.

 

I agree with kittygrl on opposing gun ownership. I read that countries with more gun restriction than America had less crimes than the U.S.A. Here's the link to prove it: http://cornellsun.com/section/news/content...ess-gun-control . Now gun control may not get rid of guns entirely, but it does at least help reduce the number of crimes committed.

[philpot123]

You don't always have to purchase a gun illegally to commit crimes. You can be an ordinary law-abiding citizen at first and then legally purchase the gun. But then sometime later, you're going to be corrupted and you'll eventually start to commit crimes. I mean look at the Trayvon Martin case for example; George Zimmerman the neighborhood watch captain just killed an innocent boy because he thought he was 'suspicious' and he lied about killing Trayvon in self-defense.

 

I agree with kittygrl on opposing gun ownership. I read that countries with more gun restriction than America had less crimes than the U.S.A. Here's the link to prove it: http://cornellsun.com/section/news/content...ess-gun-control . Now gun control may not get rid of guns entirely, but it does at least help reduce the number of crimes committed.

That sort of thing is the exception rather than the rule. And I would appreciate you dropping the assumption that all gun owners will become corrupt at some point and start to commit crimes. That's absolutely ridiculous.

 

Right, strict gun control has worked very well in California right? No violent crimes there. Oh, wait, they only had the most gun murders out of any state in 2010...

Edited June 25, 2012 by philpot123

[epicguy10000]

Ahh yes.. getting rid of all guns would make the world so much better right? I mean you know its fine if someone breaks into a house and kills innocent people just because they have nothing to defend themselves

 

But serious now if guns were outlawed it would be worse, there would be huge black markets for guns, causing us to throw away more money (Assumin your American reading that part) and the only people that would be getting guns if they were outlawed would be criminals, people are too quick to assume guns are evil, and you know what they say about assuming...

[Red Dragonette]

I never said that all gun-owners would be corrupt. I'm only stating another way how criminals can get their guns other than illegal means.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Red Dragonette

[philpot123]

I never said that all gun-owners would be corrupt. I'm only stating another way how criminals can get their guns other than illegal means.

Apologies. But this...

 

You can be an ordinary law-abiding citizen at first and then legally purchase the gun. But then sometime later, you're going to be corrupted and you'll eventually start to commit crimes.

 

Sounded very sweeping. Lets look at the data. The D.C. Area has some of the most strict gun control laws in America. In 2010, their gun-murders per 100,000 citizen rate was 16. Compare that to Tennessee, which has pretty lax gun laws, and you've got a gun-murder per 100k rate of 3.46. Coupled with the fact that Tennessee has one of the HIGHEST gun ownership rates, and D.C. has THE VERY LOWEST in America, I think this shows that strict gun control, in America at least, has no bearing on what the population that obtains guns does with them.

 

ETA: also interesting to note that Wyoming has the highest percentage of citizens that own guns in the nation, and the gun-murder to 100k rate is .91 in 2010.

Edited June 25, 2012 by philpot123