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Gun rights/control/ownership

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Then why do we bother with laws in the first place? Really, whenever someone jumps to "then only criminals will have guns!" I have to ask - just what kind of gun control are you thinking of? Seriously, we're mostly asking for things like good background checks (which like 91% of USians support anyway). Let's not get gun regulation confused with banning all guns absolutely ever.

 

Yes, how Australia handled things meant big change for them and would mean big change for us. But people can still own guns even if only some types and - here's the kicker - it worked, and it has saved lives. At least 200 lives a year saved in Australia due to their regulation.

 

Yes, we have knife violence. But guns make death (especially mass death) quicker and easier.

 

I agree we need better safety and I think classes and a license should be required for owning a shooting a gun like we require for cars, but I don't see what's so bad about background checks, at least. Education would hopefully help the accidental deaths, but it does nothing against those who legally buy guns with the intent of murdering.

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I would therefore say that any Christian arguing that they need to gun to defend their home is being an extremely bad Christian.

One shouldn't criticize another for one's personal beliefs as long as the other is not actively harming someone. Disagreeing with a few verses from a human-written and re-written countless times book (leaving aside whether those people received instructions from god or not - that's a topic for another thread) does not automatically make one a bad member of one's religion.

That's how they argue against gay marriage and gender equality, y'know.

 

 

- I strongly oppose to the notion of banning semi-automatics. Besides, I feel that the stats for Australia - those which I can find - are insufficient. Remember my comment on how 200 gun deaths and 300 other violent killings is inarguably better than 20 gun deaths and 700 other violent killings?

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I would definitely have a gun for safety reasons but, sadly in Australia there is no gun store I am aware of ;( Have no defence against robbers or people who attack me D:

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I am a 14 year old girl, and I started shooting when I was six. I love and respect guns, and know how to use 'em. I am against gun control.

 

So, like husky said, if guns are taken away, only criminals will have them. Now what? And mind you, there are plenty of stabbings. I wonder why they don't have knife control... (being sarcastic here.) But seriously, why only rip on guns? Because I have guns, if I was home alone and a bad person broke in, I could shoot him. I think that the solution to this issue lays in the idiots who treat guns like toys. If the government would push safety and proper handling, people could be prepared and educated.

Bolded part by me. You know why? Because nobody here is asking for more. Proving that you know how to handle a gun is certainly not banning a gun. If anything, it can only be better for everyone. After all, what's use in owning a gun if you don't know how to use it? Randomly shooting around won't save you from a criminal. And if you say that you want it as a deterrent, that just owning a gun can save a life, well a toy gun can work perfectly as well. God knows that nowadays they are making them to be very realistic.

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Because nobody here is asking for more.

There have been a fair amount of people demanding that ammunition would only be sold in very limited amounts, that semi-autos or some other gun types should be banned, that owning a gun for self-defense should not be allowed, et cetera, et cetera.

 

(Edit: which are the points I personally have argued against.)

Edited by Shienvien

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There have been a fair amount of people demanding that ammunition would only be sold in very limited amounts, that semi-autos or some other gun types should be banned, that owning a gun for self-defense should not be allowed, et cetera, et cetera.

 

(Edit: which are the points I personally have argued against.)

Alright then. Can I say that most vocal people here aren't asking for more? I'm not living in America, but IMO, banning anything is a bit too far.

 

That said, any opinion on banning certain bullet types? I'm talking about bullets that are made for most damage possible. I'm against it, but people can argue that some are unnecessary cruel.

Edited by PointOfOrigin

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And Jesus was around in a time where there were no guns. Think about it, would he want you to get shot by an intruder? I think not. We live in a time where millions of people can be killed with a single bomb. So don't attack my religion. Being an owner of a few assault rifles (which by the way, are excellent long distance recreational guns) , if certain bullets were banned, it would suck. Thoudand dollar guns would be rendered useless, unless you can make your own. And some people herr think buying a gun is a one-and done thing. It isn't. You have to do a LOT of work and somecpaperwork to buy one. People own bows and arrows. People can make semi-auto nail guns. There wil lalways be some kind of weapon. And about the toy gun thing, that is important too. People can make regular water guns shoot real bullets. You just need to have the outside resemblinga child's toy. Think about that. Kids would pick it up, and dare I day what could happen after that. We need education! Not bans, not control, simple education, and more good people that know and respect guns.

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Your religion is my religion, Pika. I am deeply Christian, and have conducted an extensive study of the Bible. I own five seperate translations, and have read each one cover-to-cover on several occasions. I do not argue from a position of not understanding, but from the position of someone who has read the words of Christ many times. It should also be noted that, at the time Jesus lived, society was if anything more violent than it is today.

 

@ Shienvien - actually, in this case, I really *can* say that. To be Christian means to be a follower of Christ, and on numerous occasions Christ's words indicated that a man should do no violence to his fellow man. It's not just a few verses, and it's not down to mistranslations. Christ's message was one of peace and love - and in no wise did he suggest that it was perfectly fine to use lethal force to defend yourself or your family from anything.

 

Matthew 5:38-39 "You have heard that it was said 'an eye for and eye, and a tooth for a tooth'. But I tell you do not resist an evil person. If someone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."

 

Luke 6:27-31 "But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

 

Mathew 26:52 "Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

 

I'm quite happy to go on if people would like. The point I am making is simply that it goes directly against Biblical principles to claim that you are both Christian *and* require a gun for self defence.

 

I have no issue with people saying the require a gun for self defence. I don't agree with you, but I don't take issue with it. I only take issue with the comment if you are also claiming to be a follower of Christ.

 

I also have no issues at all with people owning guns to hunt with, or for target shooting as a sport.

 

 

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None of the verses you quoted speak specifically of reacting to an attack with an intent to kill. (Of no vengeance and hatred, yes. Of not hunting down the person who has done you harm, yes. Of not resorting to additional needless violence, yes. No detailed 'let the one who draws a sword against you impale you, for one should not defend oneself', as far as I can recall.)

 

Gun for self defense does *not* mean hunting the intruder down, after all - it mostly just means taking the gun and, if possible, backing out of the situation. There is an enormous difference between actively challenging the aggressor and locking oneself up in one's bathroom with gun in hand - you know, just in case the intruder will actually forcefully break the door down, and would continue to do so once you yell at them to leave, since that's a clear sign that the intruder is not just there to take what s/he can get and leave.

 

 

@PointOfOrigin: Different ammunition has different usages. The bullets which deal more damage will also make it more certain that an animal will not run away injured, for instance...

Edited by Shienvien

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None of the verses you quoted speak specifically of reacting to an attack with an intent to kill. (Of no vengeance and hatred, yes. Of not hunting down the person who has done you harm, yes. Of not resorting to additional needless violence, yes. No detailed 'let the one who draws a sword against you impale you, for one should not defend oneself', as far as I can recall.)

 

Gun for self defense does *not* mean hunting the intruder down, after all - it mostly just means taking the gun and, if possible, backing out of the situation. There is an enormous difference between actively challenging the aggressor and locking oneself up in one's bathroom with gun in hand - you know, just in case the intruder will actually forcefully break the door down, since that's a clear sign that the intruder is not just there to take what s/he can get and leave.

Surely that particular line of reasoning is attempting to use the exact letter of the words to undermine the spirit of teh teaching. Jesus also teaches that we should love one another, and using lethal force regardless of what the other person is doing can hardly be considered an act of love.

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Jesus also teaches that we should love one another, and using lethal force regardless of what the other person is doing can hardly be considered an act of love.

What about defending one's family? Does not harming the attacker outweigh permitting the harming of your loved ones (given that one believes that not acting where one could is a way of passive harm)?

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What about defending one's family? Does not harming the attacker outweigh permitting the harming of your loved ones (given that one believes that not acting where one could is a way of passive harm)?

"Greater love hath no man than he who lays down his life for his friend.".

 

I would argue that the action one should take in that instance would be to put oneself in harms way to give ones loved ones the oppertunity to escape.

 

To argue Christian non-violence does not mean to argue offering no resistance, or taking the path of no conflict. It merely argues that from a Biblical perspectives the actions one takes should not cause physical harm.

 

Although, yes, I would be inclined to say that taking an action which would actively cause harm is worse than allowing it via inaction. For instance I would not purposefully kill a child, even if I knew that doing so would save the lives of ten others.

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I came from church, and my priest says, my priest, that it is OK for you to act in self-defense to protect yourself and your family. All the verses you quoted are either

A) Against being the aggressor

cool.gif About people who aren't trying to kill you.

 

Yes we should love our enemies. But if they are trying to kill you, I think we have fair ground to protect ourself. If I am at home, the person breaking in probably has the intent to rape, kill, or rob, either of which co-inside. I have the right to protect myself from someone that wants to rape me, or would Jesus say stand still and let him ravage you? I think not. Sorry if I'm coming off hostile, I get fired up about these things.

Edited by pikapooka

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As much as I believe you should listen to what your beliefs tell you, gun rights and ownership is a political issue. Since this is America, the government is not supposed to choose one religion over another thanks to our Constitution. This means that any religious arguments, no matter how much you think them to be true, have no grounding here. So no what Jesus says is irrelevant since Jesus is a religious icon and gun rights is a political issue. If you want to debate more about what Jesus does or doesn't say, it might be better to go to the religious section. Recall, as Thomas Jefferson said, there has to be "a wall of separation between church and state".

 

Personally, I think that we do need more gun regulations. I do not own any guns myself but my neighbor does have some for hunting. Am I worried about that? No. Why? Because I know he is responsible and keeps them locked up where no one can get them aside from him. He also teaches his kids how to be responsible with weapons so they don't abuse them if they grow up and get a gun. Do I think guns should be removed completely? No. Should they be regulated so responsible people have them? Yes!

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Ah, pudding, my comments were actually specifically adressed at people claiming to be Christian and then also claiming they needed guns for self defence. Totally relevant to the conversation here wink.gif

 

Speaking of... Pika, I believe if you read that verse from Luke you'll notice we are also told to not only offer no resistance if we are being robbed, but to offer to give more to the person doing it. There was a wonderful story recently of someone doing just that when a young man tried to rob him - and it resulted in him getting his wallet back when he offered to take the young man for some food.

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I came from church, and my priest says, my priest, that it is OK for you to act in self-defense to protect yourself and your family. All the verses you quoted are either

A) Against being the aggressor

cool.gif About people who aren't trying to kill you.

 

Yes we should love our enemies. But if they are trying to kill you, I think we have fair ground to protect ourself. If I am at home, the person breaking in probably has the intent to rape, kill, or rob, either of which co-inside. I have the right to protect myself from someone that wants to rape me, or would Jesus say stand still and let him ravage you? I think not. Sorry if I'm coming off hostile, I get fired up about these things.

I am the daughter of a minister who would have said the exact opposite. Turn the other cheek, remember ?

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Turn the other cheek, remember ?

 

If someone is trying to rape or kill you or a family member? Yeah. Sure. Maybe in another lifetime I'll personally be that um, ...good. Until then, God will just have to forgive me for sending the sob to hell a little early in those circumstances. lol smile.gif

 

But if they are trying to kill you, I think we have fair ground to protect ourself. If I am at home, the person breaking in probably has the intent to rape, kill, or rob, either of which co-inside. I have the right to protect myself from someone that wants to rape me, or would Jesus say stand still and let him ravage you? I think not.

 

Indeed.

Edited by MedievalMystic

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Mathew 26:52 "Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

 

That’s because the scripture needed to be fulfilled.

 

Matthew 26:53-54 Don't you realize that I could ask my Father for thousands of angels to protect us, and he would send them instantly? But if I did, how would the Scriptures be fulfilled that describe what must happen now?"

 

Matthew 5:38-39 "You have heard that it was said 'an eye for and eye, and a tooth for a tooth'. But I tell you do not resist an evil person. If someone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."

 

These below relate to this, but they don’t close the case on self-defense.

 

Proverbs 24:29 Do not say, "I'll do to them as they have done to me; I'll pay them back for what they did."

Leviticus 19:18 "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against a fellow Israelite, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

 

Luke 6:27-31 "But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

 

Luke 12:37-46 […] "Understand this: If a homeowner knew exactly when a burglar was coming, he would not permit his house to be broken into. […] The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

 

Exodus 22:2 "If a thief is caught in the act of breaking into a house and is struck and killed in the process, the person who killed the thief is not guilty of murder.

 

Talmud Sanhedrin 72a Raba said: what is the reason for the law of breaking in? Because it is certain that no man is inactive where his property is concerned; therefore this one [the thief] must have reasoned, ‘If I go there, he [the owner] will oppose me and prevent me; but if he does I will kill him.’ Hence the Torah decreed, ‘If he come to slay thee, forestall by slaying him’.

 

I am the daughter of a minister who would have said the exact opposite. Turn the other cheek, remember ?

 

Acts 23:3 But Paul said to him, "God will slap you, you corrupt hypocrite! What kind of judge are you to break the law yourself by ordering me struck like that?"

 

Matthew 23:33 Snakes! Sons of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of hell?

 

Matthew 11:22-24 I tell you, Tyre and Sidon will be better off on judgment day than you. "And you people of Capernaum, will you be honored in heaven? No, you will go down to the place of the dead. For if the miracles I did for you had been done in wicked Sodom, it would still be here today. I tell you, even Sodom will be better off on judgment day than you."

 

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If someone is trying to rape or kill you or a family member? Yeah.  Sure.  Maybe in another lifetime I'll personally be that um, ...good.  Until then, God will just have to forgive me  for sending the sob to hell a little early in those circumstances.  lol  smile.gif

I didn't say I'd DO it. I'm not even Christian, so I "don't hafta" follow their diktats ! But Jesus was "quoted" as saying violence was OK as self defence - and he didn't say that.

 

Alpha1 - you are quoting the OT, PAUL and others, not Jesus.

 

I don't actually care - just that Jesus did not say it was OK.

Edited by fuzzbucket

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I personally wish that the hubbub about gun control would quiet down. No amount of control and regulation is going to stop someone who wants to do others harm from obtaining these weapons. The vast majority of those who use firearms for violent crimes obtain them illegally anyway, so I don't understand how supposedly intelligent individuals think that tightening background checks on people buying guns legally is going to make a significant impact in gun violence or control.

 

It's not that I don't think that there should be gun control laws, but I personally think that the issue is being steered in entirely the wrong direction. The law-abiding gun owners who own them for hunting or sport should not be punished because of criminals; it's the criminal organizations that provide illegal firearms that need to be controlled and punished.

 

I myself will not hesitate to end someone who threatens me, my family/friends, or my pets. I have known how to handle a gun since I was 8 years old(taught by my father at a secure firearms practice range to quell any early curiosity as we do keep guns in the house) and am completely confident that I would hit my mark with a high degree of accuracy. The neighborhood I live in is full of drug dealers and hooligans who are left completely uncontrolled by local law enforcement, so I will not think twice about taking my own defense into my own hands if it really comes down to that decision.

Edited by keijaidyyn

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Alpha1 - you are quoting the OT, PAUL and others, not Jesus.

 

There were several verses that were referring to what Jesus said.

 

I don't actually care - just that Jesus did not say it was OK.

 

Why the illustration of a homeowner and a thief in Luke 12-37-46?

 

Jesus didn’t take his own advice on “turning the other cheek” either. Instead he tries to argue.

 

John 18:22 Then one of the Temple guards standing nearby slapped Jesus across the face. "Is that the way to answer the high priest?" he demanded. Jesus replied, "If I said anything wrong, you must prove it. But if I'm speaking the truth, why are you beating me?"

 

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I personally wish that the hubbub about gun control would quiet down. No amount of control and regulation is going to stop someone who wants to do others harm from obtaining these weapons. The vast majority of those who use firearms for violent crimes obtain them illegally anyway, so I don't understand how supposedly intelligent individuals think that tightening background checks on people buying guns legally is going to make a significant impact in gun violence or control.

 

It's not that I don't think that there should be gun control laws, but I personally think that the issue is being steered in entirely the wrong direction. The law-abiding gun owners who own them for hunting or sport should not be punished because of criminals; it's the criminal organizations that provide illegal firearms that need to be controlled and punished.

 

I myself will not hesitate to end someone who threatens me, my family/friends, or my pets. I have known how to handle a gun since I was 8 years old(taught by my father at a secure firearms practice range to quell any early curiosity as we do keep guns in the house) and am completely confident that I would hit my mark with a high degree of accuracy. The neighborhood I live in is full of drug dealers and hooligans who are left completely uncontrolled by local law enforcement, so I will not think twice about taking my own defense into my own hands if it really comes down to that decision.

Except that there are studies that have shown a correlation between gun control laws and firearm violence: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/03/us/repor...-laws.html?_r=0 Are we still missing pieces of the puzzle? Yes. The state with higher suicide rates for gun violence, for example, need to look into better suicide prevention and easier access to mental help. But I think the correlation is strong enough that we can't just shove it out of the way and ignore it.

 

This is a loaded article in the beginning, but worth checking out for the studies it gathered: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkbl...-united-states/

Would you mind pointing me towards a source that backs up "the vast majority of those who use firearms for violent crimes obtain them illegally anyway" as I've looked and haven't really found much in the way of that. I found:

 

http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF which says:

"According to the 1991 Survey of

State Prison Inmates, among those

inmates who possessed a handgun,

9% had acquired it through theft, and

28% had acquired it through an illegal

market such as a drug dealer or fence.

Of all inmates, 10% had stolen at least

one gun, and 11% had sold or traded

stolen guns."

 

Which was quite a while ago, but does that mean the rest were acquired legally? (And I'll just point out that stolen guns were acquired legally by someone, at least, and I wonder if there's anything to be done to better protect guns from being stolen.)

 

And this: https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/fireviol.txt which has some interesting information, but no numbers for their illegal/legal acquisition of guns point and I also don't see a year when that was written.

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200 firearm-related deaths and 300 other violent killings is always better than 50 firearm-related deaths and 600 other violent killings. We shouldn't only take gun-related deaths into account when speaking of guns 'causing' crime. How many of the dead were shot dead when they attacked? Is a raped and beaten to death woman better than a dead rapist?

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Your question confuses me. It assumes "firearm-related deaths" only means "killed in self-defense". Did I miss something? Wouldn't 'accidents' also be counted under there? Shouldn't we discuss that, too?

 

There are not many studies on how often owning guns for self-defense actually saves anybody. And a lot of the surveys done are subjective, based purely on asking people 'have you used your gun for self-defense' and the definition of how people think this applies is going to vary from person to person.

 

Yes, it's something we should look at, but I do not see how better gun regulation is going to stop people from owning guns for self-defense? In fact, gun regulation now is more concerned with protecting gun owners who have a protection of order against them than people who actually fear for their lives in that situation. At least something needs addressed with gun laws.

 

Unless you were responding specifically to banning all guns or I've missed something?

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but I don't see why its such a huge issue.

 

Most people hear the word "gun control" and go screaming mayhem off into the night.

 

BUT if you just look at the proposals, they are not saying "take away guns" they are saying "more time for gun checks" and "screening more carefully" and such. Which, as a responsible gun owning citizen, you all should be in favor of. It would make it harder for the unsavory from owning guns, and protecting YOU as a legal gun-owning citizen from people like that. Unless you want to be able to own a gun illegally, which then makes me wonder just what YOUR motives are.

 

And, I'm sorry, but no one needs an AK-47 to protect your home. Reminds me of an Monty Python sketch, where they go hunting a mosquito with a bazooka. Ok, you say, but what if the OTHER party has an AK-47? Lol...that's what the gun control is for, keeping them from owning those.

 

Yeah, nothing is gonna be perfect. But lets start acting like the intelligent people we are, and not over-reacting, which is what I see most.

 

Read the actual proposals, before knee-jerking.

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