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philpot123

Gun rights/control/ownership

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But I said teachers, I didn't say people who carry?

Well, there's only a few states with unrestricted concealed carry.

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The teachers would be people who carry...

But your post made it sound like I was saying everyone who carries is more likely to snap and shoot someone than non-carriers just because they are carrying. I'm saying a teacher would seem more likely to snap and kill a room full of kids instead of some stranger because their job is so stressful and kids are brats, not because they have a gun.

Edited by Syaoransbear

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But your post made it sound like I was saying everyone who carries is more likely to snap and shoot someone than non-carriers just because they are carrying. I'm saying a teacher would seem more likely to snap and kill a room full of kids instead of some stranger because their job is so stressful and kids are brats, not because they have a gun.

Ah, okay. I gotcha smile.gif thanks for clarifying!

 

In which case, I would still have to disagree xd.png I don't think there's evidence to support that fear.

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If the general population didn't have access to guns in the past, there wouldn't be a problem today. Now everyone with a license can get one. I just think guns are a waste in resources, they only bring death wherever they go sad.gif

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In which case, I would still have to disagree xd.png I don't think there's evidence to support that fear.

As a former teacher I can tell you for free there is plenty of evidence to support that teachers are stressed, and that stress can be overwhelming and cause you to do very out-of-character things.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/julian-sta..._b_1864160.html

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/teacher-network/...fear-depression

 

Stress in teaching.

Travers, Cheryl; Cooper, Cary

Shorrocks-Taylor, Diane (Ed), (1998). Directions in educational psychology. , (pp. 365-390). Philadelphia, PA (Note here that this is a paper from 15yrs ago, so stress in teaching is not a new concept)

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10093529

 

And frankly, talk to a teacher. If they are being honest they will agree that there are times that you wish you could just let your anger, frustration and stress out. Giving a highly-stress group of professionals access to firearms? Not a good idea.

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Agreeing with Kestra here.

 

And this is just from observing my own teachers. I've seen teachers get frustrated and take it out on students.

 

Sometimes kids do their best to reduce subs to tears. Do you really want people who are being subjected to that to walk around with a gun?

 

Teachers who can do their job and do it well have my utmost respect because of the BS they put up with--both from their students, and from at times unsupportive parents and school systems.

 

But that is a high-stress job.

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I never said it wasn't a high-stress job. Just that I don't believe a high-stress job = crazed shooter. And you act like they don't already have access to firearms... There's a sign that tells them not to carry, sure.

Edited by philpot123

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I'd say a policeman's work is far more stressful than a teacher's, yet I don't hear the same argument being used against cops carrying guns all that often.

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Because the job descriptions and training are the same, eh? Not sure if that isn't just a troll.

 

The thing about Israel arming teachers, they have gun control. So if we want to emulate them, shouldn't we emulate both parts?

 

Are Israeli Teachers armed?

 

Second Article

 

Two types of people have guns in Israel: Soldiers and those with licenses. Mentally unstable people don’t have guns—and thus, don’t shoot people. And it is not as easy to steal a gun as it is in the US. When you are drafted you go through mental tests to see if there are any red flags. If so, you will be discharged or placed in an area where you would never see a rifle.

 

Only those with the rank of Captain or Lieutenant Colonel for at least two years can qualify to own a gun after the army. And those who do have guns are taught to guard them carefully. For soldiers who take their weapons home, it must be on their persons at all times or under lock and key.

 

Losing a weapon will get you a jail sentence, as my wife’s childhood friend, Moti, found out two decades ago. He left his gun in his car because he was just running into a mini-mart. He came back and the gun was gone. He spent six months in jail and God only knows where that gun ended up.

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Because the job descriptions and training are the same, eh? Not sure if that isn't just a troll.

Police officer training is minimal. I could become a reserve officer and legally carry a firearm at the age of 18 in a very short time with training of a lower level than that which I have already sought out on my own.

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I don't particularly think teachers are just going to snap and kill their students. o_O

 

However, I'm not for arming teachers. Kids are clingy, they like getting hugs, they'll pull on your pants or shirt to get your attention. Older, they're disrespectful, they purposefully toe the line. Etc.

 

I'm okay with having police drive by schools more often. We often had the police stop by and chat with our principle and stuff and I think that worked well. I'm even okay if the school wants to hire a security guard. We had a security guard in middle school and kids often went to him when they couldn't go to teachers. I barely noticed his presence normally.

 

But I think children and adults/parents/guardians deserve a safe space for their kids where people don't have to worry about their kid being shot on accident. We see enough accidental shootings here when kids get a hold of guns or when people don't follow safety standards exactly (think of the semi-recent incident where a man shot his son in his car through the seat). I think fewer people with guns is better and I think teachers have quite enough to worry about without also having to worry about guns, even if the guns are allowed and not required. Teachers are teachers, babysitters, therapists, etc. In America, they have huge classrooms to take care of. They're responsible for recess duty. They are responsible for these kids for a huge amount of time. It's a lot to do to keep an eye on them taking them places, remembering who needs to come back from the bathroom, working one on one with a kid and keeping your eye on other kids, etc. I think it's unfair and cruel of us to also hand them a gun and tell them to keep the kids safe from intruders by shooting them. During a lockdown, they're already hiding the kids, keeping them entertained, making sure they got the doors closed and locked, and more. They don't also need to be armed guards for the school. =|

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Police officer training is minimal. I could become a reserve officer and legally carry a firearm at the age of 18 in a very short time with training of a lower level than that which I have already sought out on my own.

What is a policeman's job? Enforce the law. What is a teacher's job? Educate kids. They are not the same, are they?

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I'd say a policeman's work is far more stressful than a teacher's, yet I don't hear the same argument being used against cops carrying guns all that often.

Teacher training =/= police training.

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What is a policeman's job? Enforce the law. What is a teacher's job? Educate kids. They are not the same, are they?

No, they aren't. Asking that permitted teachers be allowed to carry a firearm is not equivalent to asking them to enforce the law. It's allowing them to defend themselves against a lawbreaker.

 

 

I think it's unfair and cruel of us to also hand them a gun and tell them to keep the kids safe from intruders by shooting them.

 

I appreciate your reasoning, although I disagree. I selected this sentence specifically because I believe it's a misrepresentation of our goals as 2Am. supporters. We don't wish to hand teachers anything that they don't already have. We simply want them to be allowed to carry their personal firearm into the school in a concealed manner if they have a state permit allowing them to carry a firearm. Further, we wouldn't expect them or tell them to shoot someone. This is up to the individual. Whether or not to carry a gun is a personal choice, whether or not to use it in self defense is a choice. No coercion is involved, no mandates or requests. We very simply want the laws governing our states to apply even within a school building. We don't to arm more people unless they wish to be armed. Yay for liberty! I like liberty!

 

I will also say that with modern firearms, a true "accidental" discharge of a firearm is very difficult to find. In any instance where the user him/herself pulls on the trigger, even in an "accidental" way, that would be classified as a "negligent discharge," something that could have been prevented with proper firearm safety. A true accidental discharge is something along the lines of dropping a firearm and having it go off (highly unlikely with ANY modern gun), or if someone is carrying a firearm in an unsafe manner, having some other object catch the trigger. In any case, if the owner is carrying properly, these things will simply not happen. Any legitimate carry holster covers the entire trigger guard of the pistol, so nothing will catch the trigger on accident.

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Because the job descriptions and training are the same, eh?
The point is, policemen can also carry guns in crowded areas, and they have a job that is generally more stressful than that of teachers. (I've taught anything from fifth graders to college students, although not as a fully employed teacher, and at most a rate of two or three prolonged lessons a week. I haven't worked as a cop, or in security, but I've spoken to quite a few, and have a rough overview of what their work is like, and in what mental states they are in. Plus statistics seem to support the fact that the representatives of police are somewhat worse off with suicides, depression and similar.)

That what the job description says is quite irrelevant as long as both are humans. And the training to become a support-officer who can carry is minimal indeed, like Phil pointed out... Taking a short course over here is all that's required.

 

No one here has advocated necessitating that teachers were armed, as far as I've seen. Just that they should have an option to be. As for ensuring that the mentally unstabler ones would not get guns and that they'd know how to handle those safely? The process of acquiring a gun permit that I've been advocating would still be required.

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I'm actually fairly disturbed by the idea that police aren't given good training. That's... Actually very frightening, considering that there's a disturbing number of police who abuse their power. (Naturally, not all of them--but there's plenty out there).

 

I always thought you had to have really good training to be an officer. Well. I'll just add that to the list of reasons to be wary of police.

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Locally at least the competition to become a police officer is huge, with major preference for former and current service members who already have considerable weapons training. Without that to even be considered you need several years of college in criminal law and considerable gun safety and target practice. In addition to undergoing mental and physical testing.

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It's the same way here, one of my sisters tried to pass the exams to become a cop but failed, so she became an armed security guard instead. That was why many police had a low view of security guards, because they were the people that couldn't make it as an officer and tended to have issues. Totally true in that sister's case, she IS mental. I know the department my other sister works with tests applicants pretty extensively as well, to weed out power trippers. But, I still get very interesting stories in some cases, once they are in, it's very hard to fire them. She knows a lot of the cases because she's the head CPA. So, when they start following the money trail they can usually find something. She's actually testifying in one case this week about one that was faking overtime.

 

I guess I find the comparison a bit trollish after the huge effort to remove the ability for teachers to collectively bargain, yet it was retained for police and firefighters.

 

Four of my aunts are teachers. I think I've posted before, they'd be happy with a fence and a guard, not so happy having random coworkers armed. In that sense, I have "no dog in this hunt" Neither kid or a job that would be me in the position to really worry about it. That's why I asked, who's rights do you respect? The teachers, students, parents or administrators?

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I'm actually fairly disturbed by the idea that police aren't given good training. That's... Actually very frightening, considering that there's a disturbing number of police who abuse their power. (Naturally, not all of them--but there's plenty out there).

 

I always thought you had to have really good training to be an officer. Well. I'll just add that to the list of reasons to be wary of police.

It depends on the area, obviously. My area is certainly not representative of high-crime localities. I couldn't sign on at the NYPD in a week's time. My point is simply that the laws that are in place already allow for low-skill people to carry a firearm, and it happens without much incident. Again, I still believe training is a personal responsibility issue, not something any government has the right to mandate.

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I appreciate your reasoning, although I disagree. I selected this sentence specifically because I believe it's a misrepresentation of our goals as 2Am. supporters. We don't wish to hand teachers anything that they don't already have. We simply want them to be allowed to carry their personal firearm into the school in a concealed manner if they have a state permit allowing them to carry a firearm. Further, we wouldn't expect them or tell them to shoot someone. This is up to the individual. Whether or not to carry a gun is a personal choice, whether or not to use it in self defense is a choice. No coercion is involved, no mandates or requests. We very simply want the laws governing our states to apply even within a school building. We don't to arm more people unless they wish to be armed. Yay for liberty! I like liberty!

 

I will also say that with modern firearms, a true "accidental" discharge of a firearm is very difficult to find. In any instance where the user him/herself pulls on the trigger, even in an "accidental" way, that would be classified as a "negligent discharge," something that could have been prevented with proper firearm safety. A true accidental discharge is something along the lines of dropping a firearm and having it go off (highly unlikely with ANY modern gun), or if someone is carrying a firearm in an unsafe manner, having some other object catch the trigger. In any case, if the owner is carrying properly, these things will simply not happen. Any legitimate carry holster covers the entire trigger guard of the pistol, so nothing will catch the trigger on accident.

I expected and respect this reply. =)

 

I kind of danced around the issue, but I think when you have a gun, it does change the way you think about things. Even if just based on willingness, I do think in a teacher's mind, they will be thinking more of shooting the threat, rather than getting the children out so they never even have to face the threat.

 

I know accidental discharge is very rare and, as I agreed within the loose definition, only happens when someone is disobeying safety rules (only instance of accidental discharge we've experienced on the range was when my bf was being a bit stupid and trying to test how far back he could hold the trigger while pointing the gun down so he could shoot as fast as possible when he raised the gun - luckily just startled us and no one was injured!) But I'm uncomfortable with sticking a teacher in a classroom of 15 - 30 hyper, curious little children who could have some to no experience around guns and making them be always aware of what is going on with the gun (is a child tugging on the holster? etc.) as well as teacher. I'm sure this is a more unreasonable aspect of my argument, but it does happen and I do think that if a parent has a problem with a teacher having a gun, that is fair and their child shouldn't have to be in that class. Which is just going to create more complicated processes for getting children into classes and could cause problems if every teacher in the grade wants to carry.

 

~

 

And agreed that police need better training, as well as I'd like more training before owning a gun overall.

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As far as police training, I remember having tons of cap guns etc when I was a kid that were pretty good replicas of guns. Then after several kids with toy guns got shot by cops, they pushed having those red tips attached so the cops would be able to tell toy from reality. I think it's mandated for airsoft guns.

 

But anywho, I mentioned a few pages back that if guns are a proven safety device/crime deterrent, that ought to be reflected in the free market, via insurance etc. Looks like the insurance industry is thinking about things like that. in-gun-debate-a-bigger-role-seen-for-insurers?

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Even with the red-tipped toy or air-soft guns, many idiots take the red tips off because they think it cool to make others think they have a 'real' gun...

 

I am 66 and have always had loaded guns in my house, even when my children were growing up. When they were very young, I kept one or two of the loaded ones up out of reach. When they were abt 6yrs old or so I started training them in gun safety and taking them target shooting, a sport that I have enjoyed for many, many years. I now have grandkids who are both 5 yrs old who are being taught with air pistols and rifles. After a while, they will be taught with real guns, .22 cal at first, as I did with my own kids. I never worried about my kids misusing any of the guns, they had no curiousity about them and they were comfortable with them.

 

They were taught that if at another house and a kid there brought out a gun, they were to leave immediately and go find an adult, NOW! They were not to try and take it away or anything, just get out. My kids still remember these rules and have passed them on.

 

If guns are ever made illegal to own or possess here in the States, then only criminals will have them. I keep a small 2" .38 cal pistol in my front room at all times. I live in California and the anti-gun nuts are out in force here. I once shot police pistol competition for four years and I am confident in my accuracy. Yes, there should be sensible restrictions in gun ownership, nuts, felons, etc... But for the rest of us, as long as we are obeying the sensible gun laws, leave us alone...

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I am a 14 year old girl, and I started shooting when I was six. I love and respect guns, and know how to use 'em. I am against gun control.

 

So, like husky said, if guns are taken away, only criminals will have them. Now what? And mind you, there are plenty of stabbings. I wonder why they don't have knife control... (being sarcastic here.) But seriously, why only rip on guns? Because I have guns, if I was home alone and a bad person broke in, I could shoot him. I think that the solution to this issue lays in the idiots who treat guns like toys. If the government would push safety and proper handling, people could be prepared and educated.

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I am a 14 year old girl, and I started shooting when I was six. I love and respect guns, and know how to use 'em. I am against gun control.

 

So, like husky said, if guns are taken away, only criminals will have them. Now what? And mind you, there are plenty of stabbings. I wonder why they don't have knife control... (being sarcastic here.) But seriously, why only rip on guns? Because I have guns, if I was home alone and a bad person broke in, I could shoot him. I think that the solution to this issue lays in the idiots who treat guns like toys. If the government would push safety and proper handling, people could be prepared and educated.

Having seen some of your previous posts I would like to point out to you that, Biblically, Jesus was specifically against self defence. I would therefore say that any Christian arguing that they need to gun to defend their home is being an extremely bad Christian.

 

Just something to think on. I can give you multiple Bible references if you feel the need to look it up.

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