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philpot123

Gun rights/control/ownership

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The clip capacity bill is useless to prevent mass murder. If a person wants mayhem and destruction it is as simple as carrying more clips. Or taking several small clips and making a larger one. Or building your own from scrap metal and cheap springs. Or using a 3d printer and literally printing out your own plastic clips.

 

 

 

 

 

Best things ever to reduce death and injury? Enforce current laws and enact better storage laws. Its pretty darn hard to steal a gun when it is locked in a safe when the owner is not home or the gun is not in use by the owner. Further more fixing our mess of a health care system should be first priority. Actually caring for and treating our mentally and physically ill with the respect, compassion and good medical care that they deserve would fix more problems then stronger gun laws ever could.

Edited by babybluefire

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But it would have to get through the House.  That's where the hang up to all of the actual weapons/accessories bans will hit problems.  That's why I think that including things like the AWB and the magazine ban are useful, because they can be shed in a deal to get the rest through.

 

As for having them still on the street, the thing is that it takes time for things like that to begin to fade from circulation.  Will there still be some, of course.  But the ones out there would be illegal, so they'd be confiscated every time they surfaced.  If the ATF was allowed to be a functioning agency, slowly the inventory on the street would begin to thin.

 

Which doesn't mean that I think they'd disappear, just that I think that a ban along with a more realistic amount of oversight would have an eventual impact.

 

But the high capacity magazine ban seems to be aimed at the mass shooting incidents, and it might actually make a difference in those particular circumstances.

 

Overall I think that it comes down to how well the case can be made that the magazines are necessary for common uses of guns these days.  It's easy to make the case that people like them, but probably harder to make one that people's usage of guns would be broadly restricted because of a ban.

Actually, under the last magazine cap limit, it is my understanding that it only applied to new production. It wasn't illegal to purchase 30 round mags from a private party, it was illegal to manufacture them. As for it affecting mass shooting incidents, Columbine happened with 10 round mags.

 

The clip capacity bill is useless to prevent mass murder. If a person wants mayhem and destruction it is as simple as carrying more clips. Or taking several small clips and making a larger one. Or building your own from scrap metal and cheap springs. Or using a 3d printer and literally printing out your own plastic clips.

 

user posted image

 

/Pet Peeve

Edited by philpot123

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Whatever term is used does not make my point any less valid. There simply is no reason to enact a worthless ban other then posturing and politics. Very high capacity magazines can be bought second hand or made extremely cheaply. And you are correct, Columbine and the most recent shooting happened with magazines that will still be legal if the ban is pushed through.

 

 

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The clip capacity bill is useless to prevent mass murder. If a person wants mayhem and destruction it is as simple as carrying more clips. Or taking several small clips and making a larger one. Or building your own from scrap metal and cheap springs. Or using a 3d printer and literally printing out your own plastic clips.

Not quite as simple as carrying more as the Tuscon shooting was ended when the shooter was reloading and dropped the new magazine.

 

Also, if you look at the Sandy Hook shooting, that's a crime with weapons of opportunity. He simply took what was available. While there are certainly some shooters who will plan ahead and accumulate weapons, there are always going to be those who simply take advantage of what they can easily get hold of. In those instances, the magazine ban could, possibly, minimize injuries.

 

Actually, under the last magazine cap limit, it is my understanding that it only applied to new production. It wasn't illegal to purchase 30 round mags from a private party, it was illegal to manufacture them. As for it affecting mass shooting incidents, Columbine happened with 10 round mags.

Frankly, I think that if they ban something but allow people to retain what they own, it should be illegal to sell/transfer that thing. At the very least, something that is deemed ban worthy should have some restrictions on how they're passed from one person to another.

 

And I don't think anyone is saying that the ban will prevent mass shootings, just that it could minimize the fallout in some cases. It's not a cure all but, honestly, I think the idea that things should totally fix a problem or they shouldn't be bothered with is an unrealistic idea that seems to pervade the gun debate and is not really how we handle most laws.

 

Like I said earlier, I'd be fine if they sacrificed the weapons ban part and got the rest of it passed. I think those things are going to have the most effect, which is one of the reasons I think the NRA has interfered with some of them so much.

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This is beginning to sound a bit like "we want our guns and there is no point trying to do anything about gun control or shootings anyway, cuz nothing will work so leave us our guns and as much of any ammo as we want."

 

How sad.

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Also, if you look at the Sandy Hook shooting, that's a crime with weapons of opportunity. He simply took what was available. While there are certainly some shooters who will plan ahead and accumulate weapons, there are always going to be those who simply take advantage of what they can easily get hold of. In those instances, the magazine ban could, possibly, minimize injuries.

 

It could potentially minimize injuries in certain situations, while increasing them in others. The average number of shots used to incapacitate an attacker is 8. Obviously not all of those are hits. You'll miss a lot. If you're carrying for self defense and you've got a 10 round magazine, you better hope there's only one attacker.

 

It's not a cure all but, honestly, I think the idea that things should totally fix a problem or they shouldn't be bothered with is an unrealistic idea that seems to pervade the gun debate and is not really how we handle most laws.

 

I believe that any benefits such measures would have would be outweighed by the negative consequences. I could be wrong. But that's my position. It's not about the fact that it won't solve everything, it's about the fact that a. I don't believe it will solve much of anything, and b. I'm a fan of personal liberty instead of utilitarianism.

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This is beginning to sound a bit like "we want our guns and there is no point trying to do anything about gun control or shootings anyway, cuz nothing will work so leave us our guns and as much of any ammo as we want."

 

How sad.

Having a mentally and physically healthy nation would work. I f we took care of our own people and made sure that everyone had the health care they need then there would be dramatically less "crazy" people committing crimes with guns, or knives, or hammers, or whatever they can get a hold of.

 

 

My family hunts and fishes and many of them own livestock big and small on farms. I can tell you first hand that everything in a 20 mile radius will try and eat chickens if you have any. I can tell you first hand that a 22 will not kill a raccoon that eats through siding and is in process of eating your hens. Not quickly and efficiently anyways. If its my livestock or a wild animal I will obviously pick my livestock. But I wont use a small gun with only 1 or 2 bullets. That is just cruel particularly if you miss. I will only use something that will take care of it instantly and as quickly and painlessly as possible. That means some people do need larger more powerful guns with a reasonable size magazine.

Edited by babybluefire

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Having a mentally and physically healthy nation would work. I f we took care of our own people and made sure that everyone had the health care they need then there would be dramatically less "crazy" people committing crimes with guns, or knives, or hammers, or whatever they can get a hold of.

The underlying cause of shootings is not any mental disorder the person may have, but things like their socioeconomic situation and any drug/substance abuse problems. Sexism and racism in our society also contribute to this. In order to prevent/minimize shootings, there's a whole lot in our country we need to fix. It's going to take a long time. It makes sense to supplement fixing these things with better gun regulation/control.

 

Yes something needs done about healthcare in this country, but that's not going to be the magical fix to all the gun violence we suffer and I don't think it means we should just ignore the more major causes of gun violence or ignore measures other countries take to prevent and minimize gun violence, especially when those measures do help or at least make people more accountable.

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My family hunts and fishes and many of them own livestock big and small on farms. I can tell you first hand that everything in a 20 mile radius will try and eat chickens if you have any. I can tell you first hand that a 22 will not kill a raccoon that eats through siding and is in process of eating your hens. Not quickly and efficiently anyways. If its my livestock or a wild animal I will obviously pick my livestock. But I wont use a small gun with only 1 or 2 bullets. That is just cruel particularly if you miss. I will only use something that will take care of it instantly and as quickly and painlessly as possible. That means some people do need larger more powerful guns with a reasonable size magazine.

Not for that you don't. Sorry but I, likewise, grew up on a farm. In a country where you cannot have magazines on most guns. While we didn't have raccoons we did have foxes - and we got rid of those pretty quick with the shortgun.

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The underlying cause of shootings is not any mental disorder the person may have, but things like their socioeconomic situation and any drug/substance abuse problems.Sexism and racism in our society also contribute to this.  In order to prevent/minimize shootings, there's a whole lot in our country we need to fix. It's going to take a long time. It makes sense to supplement fixing these things with better gun regulation/control.

 

Yes something needs done about healthcare in this country, but that's not going to be the magical fix to all the gun violence we suffer and I don't think it means we should just ignore the more major causes of gun violence or ignore measures other countries take to prevent and minimize gun violence, especially when those measures do help or at least make people more accountable.

THIS. So very this. Very well said, Socky.

 

And I live in a deeply rural area - and none of the farmers - who shoot foxes regularly, and (at my equally rural Canadian home) coons, coyotes and potentially rabid skunks has anything more than a shotgun or rifle.

 

Part of the issue is that you need to be able to aim well. One farmer told me that it really upsets him to see people empty a magazine at even a very naughty an animal when a single well placed shot will do the job. He says no-one should be allowed a gun - even a shotgun -until they have been REALLY well trained in TARGET PRACTICE, not just operating the nasty thing. (yes, he said nasty thing. But a rabid groundhog can bite a cow's leg and believe me, the day you see a rabid cow... He is resigned to the fact that he needs to own it, but he hates guns.)

Edited by fuzzbucket

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Yes, when we went outdoors back home, we never did so without a 22 rifle for snakes. Really wasn't worried about bigger things most days. Though I started using my grandfather's 4 10 shotgun later. I don't care much for anything larger and never felt like I needed it. But of course, the guys hunting deer or wild pig take rifles.

 

We had the most bizarre and sad incident a couple years ago. We have a feral pig problem in our fields so my dad had been asking if people wanted to hunt them. (Especially after the rooted a tractor sized hole in the road). The guys that do, invited him along. Honestly, my dad grew up in the country but he's never been a good hunter. I don't think he's ever gotten a deer. But when the dogs flushed the pig, he just started shooting. 6 from a high caliber rifle until it was empty. He hit the dogs instead of the pig and they died. It was really, really traumatic. I know he felt sick over it. He'd just sit in his chair looking old. The guys, those dogs were like kids to them, they were shocked and freaked out. You just don't... start firing blind. And no one would have ever suggested he'd do that. They sure didn't invite him along to do that heh. Luckily, one of the females had had pups recently and they gave the guy back one of them, they said he felt much better after that.

 

My dad still can't explain why he did that. My guess is that he's seen what happens when a large pig gets a hold of someone and freaked, but he won't talk about it. If he'd had a larger gun, I guess some trees would have been cut down o.O

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Not for that you don't. Sorry but I, likewise, grew up on a farm. In a country where you cannot have magazines on most guns. While we didn't have raccoons we did have foxes - and we got rid of those pretty quick with the shortgun.

Raccoons here are 30 plus pounds and are the size of a dog. We also have foxes, coyotes and bears. A 22 will not work. That will just piss most of them off. Sorry for you but I am a petite women and barely push 5 foot tall. No shotgun is going to take care of a bear, and any big enough to use for raccoons or coyote is going to be big, heavy, hard for me to handle and inaccurate. Inaccurate because if I use a shotgun in the hen house I am going to kill half the hens too and blow a hole the size of a dinner plate in the walls.

 

 

Not to be argumentative, but yes, there are situations where people need something with a magazine. Coyotes hunt in packs, very large packs around here. They have zero fear of humans and guns. So carrying a shotgun with one or two shells and going outside when you know they are there is a very dangerous idea.

 

 

Target practice is great and all, but I have seen both raccoons and bears keep right on going with several accurate shots. They are extremely tough animals.

Edited by babybluefire

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There is virtually NO circumstance in which an ordinary person needs to shoot at a bear - and given that a wounded bear is more dangerous than just a bear - leave them alone.

 

And coons can be shot with a shotgun. Our local farmers do it all the time.Yes they are big - but a rifle used by someone who knows how to will do it with one shot.

 

If you come across a pack of coyotes - why the hell stay where you are ? You can't hope to take out a whole pack, even with a magazine.

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If there was that big a fear about coyotes here, we'd be putting out traps and hunting them down first. Because that is what we did years ago. They've been gone from the area for decades and only recently started coming back. Not quickly, as we had bobcats and two mountain lions move in and yes, a couple black bears. A rabid bear is not a pretty thing to think about and you sure better be a damn good shot to take it down before it gets you. Same with a pack of coyotes. I've never heard of a whole pack being rabid, probably because they'd tear each other apart first.

 

4 10 are little shot guns. They make a nice quarter sized whole in things. I used mine to shoot large woodpeckers out of the orchard and squirrels. It wouldn't spray and hurt a chicken.

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Raccoons here are 30 plus pounds and are the size of a dog. We also have foxes, coyotes and bears. A 22 will not work. That will just piss most of them off. Sorry for you but I am a petite women and barely push 5 foot tall. No shotgun is going to take care of a bear, and any big enough to use for raccoons or coyote is going to be big, heavy, hard for me to handle and inaccurate. Inaccurate because if I use a shotgun in the hen house I am going to kill half the hens too and blow a hole the size of a dinner plate in the walls.

 

 

Not to be argumentative, but yes, there are situations where people need something with a magazine. Coyotes hunt in packs, very large packs around here. They have zero fear of humans and guns. So carrying a shotgun with one or two shells and going outside when you know they are there is a very dangerous idea.

 

 

Target practice is great and all, but I have seen both raccoons and bears keep right on going with several accurate shots. They are extremely tough animals.

If *all* of your raccoons are around that size then you ought to get someone out to study them - as that's about 50% bigger than average. Incidently a big dog fox in this country will also weigh in at around 30lbs, and there have been several reported attacks by foxes on children (in urban areas, where for some unknown reason people keep feeding the damned things in their gardens rather than seeing them off). Yet we do just fine keeping them off livestock in the UK with the guns available to us. So, no, I still don't think you need a large magazine for that reason.

 

As someone else said - shooting at a bear is pretty much idiotic. Most wild animals that may be a threat will also be warned off by the *sound* of a gun firing, so you shouldn't need to shoot at them repeatedly anyway. They may not be firghtened by the prescence of a human, but they sure are by a very loud noise like that!

 

Honestly, I think you are making excuses. People in countries with much tighter gun regulation than the States cope just fine (say hello Canada).

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If there is a bear in the barn or worse in the house then yes perfect situation for an "ordinary" person to shoot. The garbage bears get more and more aggressive every year. My neighbors to the left shot one because it tore through the garage and tore apart a freezer and there was no scaring it off. My neighbors to the right ended up shooting one because despite it being trapped and relocated it came back and tore the barn apart to eat horse feed. We have to wait over an hour for the state police if there is a problem. No farmer or horse breeder can wait hours when thousands of dollars worth of livestock is in jeopardy.

 

 

We should pick up and move then if there are coyotes? The natural predators that should keep them in check are gone, the red wolf, bobcat and the mountain lions. Then a few hundred years of inreeding with stray dogs and they are not the coyotes that they should be. They are twice the size, have no natural fear and run in huge packs. There is no season for them, its year round free to hunt and trap. I think the per day limit is 20 per person per day. And that is not even enough. Plus they are not stupid, they are very very hard to trap.

 

 

This area specifically has a huge predator problem. Heck we have huge deer problems. The farm land and woods are spectacular in pa. That leads to incredible numbers of prey animals, more that humans can hunt. Without the natural predators we should have its a mess right now.

 

 

You mentioned that a 30 pound raccoon is big, yes of course it is. Massive amounts of natural food, massive amounts of farm crops to nibble and virtually no natural predators and they do get huge and fat.

Edited by babybluefire

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My parents live south of us in hershey pa, they live less then a mile from the hotel hershey and hershey park. My parents have to chase about twenty deer out of the driveway to get to work in the morning. When the hotel did some expansions the construction workers surprised a den of coyotes. Living less then a quarter of a mile from the hotel. Stray dogs and cats are no longer an issue in hershey. The coyotes are even eating peoples pets if they are left out. Heck last year part of hershey hospital was closed because a black bear wandered out of the woods and was messing with the garbage cans outside.

 

 

This is an area specific situation where hunting and trapping are just not doing enough.

Edited by babybluefire

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While I do believe there are legitimate reasons to own a gun with a high capacity magazine (multiple assailants, boar hunting, etc.), again I'll say that rights have nothing to do with "need."

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There is virtually NO circumstance in which an ordinary person needs to shoot at a bear - and given that a wounded bear is more dangerous than just a bear - leave them alone.

 

And coons can be shot with a shotgun. Our local farmers do it all the time.Yes they are big - but a rifle used by someone who knows how to will do it with one shot.

 

If you come across a pack of coyotes - why the hell stay where you are ? You can't hope to take out a whole pack, even with a magazine.

Your coyote quote made my day.

 

Yeah, people can easily outrun a pack of coyotes that not only have lifetimes of experience hunting and running, they have to run for survival.

 

So yes, run away from the coyotes. And bears. And leopards. And cheetas. Because at this point, it doesn't matter which creature you're trying to outrun; you will die anyway.

 

Also, did you read what anyone said about shooting raccoons with a shotgun? It kills them slowly and painfully.

 

About your bears--as someone else stated, they frequently get into trash cans and farms, destroying massive amounts of property.

 

 

At this point, I'm beginning to wonder if you know anything about animals -__-

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I live in the mountains where I can fall asleep to the howling of coyotes, have to bring my dog in to avoid her barking at them, and bears can wander by and dig in our trash (which then gets to hide in our garage until the bear is gone). It's a community so we have to survive without guns - and yannow what? We do! My parents retirement home, there's quite a few poor hungry bears wandering around up there. People honk and bump them with cars (once they've been around enough, they start to not care about the cars D: ) to get them out of the trash. We've had to bring the dog in a few times when the bear tried to wander through the backyard. Do animal control authorities not come out to the more rural counties for those complaints/are the rules on animal control different there? I would think if a bear, at least, has been sighted a few times and tagged enough times, they'll eventually have to put it down, anyway.

 

I would guess on a farm, animals might get a little rowdier? But I mean, up here, the only thing that's eaten pets (small dogs) has been mountain lions. So I dunno. o.o

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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Normally when you have areas like that, something people have done has offset the natural wildlife population. Granted, the only animal out of all those listed that has gone after our chickens is a fox. And it's kinda well, it happens, do a better job shutting up the hen house. More of a problem is snakes getting after baby chicks and eggs. My sister trapped a snake in a box when her husband was away and I guess called me after she was done freaking out. Me: "What did you do with it?" Her: "I put it in the freezer! But I'm afraid to open it to check on it because it might be out of the box and come out!" Me: "How long ago was this?" Her: " ...maybe 5 hours ago?" Me: " laugh.gif I think you can open it..."

 

We've had more vultures than coyotes go after small dogs. Most of the coyotes stay out of site and the others are rarely spotted. Our raccoons come in the garden every night after dark, but they've never gone after chickens. The only thing we've had go after bigger livestock is feral dogs, the last was a rottweiler and it was NOT friendly. People constantly dump dogs out here though.

 

Still, I never felt like I needed a tommy gun to walk around with. I prefer to have my dogs with me. They are loud and happy and they see things I don't. Bears I prefer to avoid like the plague o.O

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The more rural the area either the longer the wait or animal control does not come out at all. Its kinda the expectation that farmers and people who live in the boonies and the very small towns here take care of problems themselves. One time I called animal control because the one neighbors dogs were out trying to tear into my chicken pen, he said he could get there in a few days. In the mean time that I was to do what I needed to do. I did not shot any of them. But I did walk around outside with a gun or a shovel in hand at all times for a while. The last time I called animal control a very obviously sick fox had wandered into the barn and curled up in the hay to die. The officer told us to shoot and burn it and wash our hands and tools afterwords. There was no coming to pick it up, no testing for rabies, nothing.

 

 

 

There is a huge difference in our natural wildlife and the nuisance ones or garbage bears. The garbage bears learned that trashing houses or barns is way quicker and easier then spending hours foraging. The worst garbage bears are second and third generations. They have never been taught how to forage, they can not survive naturally any more. Getting into bird feeders and trash bins is all they know. And when they can't find those kind of food sources then they start tearing apart buildings and ripping doors off cars to get at food because they are starving.

 

 

 

We happen to live in an area where they attempt to relocate nuisance animals. Which imo is a horrific idea. Besides spreading diseases from place to place all it does is create a bigger problem. They can not forage naturally, so they cover great distances to specifically find humans whom they associate with food. Once they find people around here they are usually savvy and there are no trash cans out, no garbage cans, food is kept locked up tight. So these hungry grumpy bears and other animals are left with no other option then to tear things apart to get food.

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I am glad we don't have a bear problem. But we don't have animal control that I know of. We have a game warden who has a major stick up his butt and no one wants to see anyway. I don't think it's ever occurred to anyone to call someone if there is a dog chasing the horses or a rabid skunk. It's understood that if a dog etc goes onto someone else's property, it's getting shot. Same goes for humans really, we were warned not to trespass. The only thing the warden cares about is deer out of season and that just barely. We have a very elderly community though. The house still has a black powder rifle in it that works. Newer fancy big magazine stuff wouldn't be found out here. The only people with that type of stuff are the junkies growing pot or meth labs. Which is sadly more common in the country than one would think it would be.

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Your coyote quote made my day.

 

Yeah, people can easily outrun a pack of coyotes that not only have lifetimes of experience hunting and running, they have to run for survival.

 

So yes, run away from the coyotes. And bears. And leopards. And cheetas. Because at this point, it doesn't matter which creature you're trying to outrun; you will die anyway.

 

Also, did you read what anyone said about shooting raccoons with a shotgun? It kills them slowly and painfully.

 

About your bears--as someone else stated, they frequently get into trash cans and farms, destroying massive amounts of property.

 

 

At this point, I'm beginning to wonder if you know anything about animals -__-

Sure I do. Trees are one option. ANY building with a door you can close is another. If you are nuts enough to go out in the wild where you are likely to run into this kind of thing, you have only yourself to blame. But yes, don't run. Stupid I am NOT.

 

We've had coyotes in the yard; as well as, inevitably skunks, groundhogs, coons, porcupines and foxes. We've come across bears while camping - in one site there was even a grizzly. We stayed in the camper till they went away. Why shoot it ? It has the right to be there just as we do.

 

Bears do frequent the local dump, yes. That's a bit annoying - don't go there while the bears are around- but the issue there is more one of people throwing away food, and the management of the dump. Garbage does not need to be outside except on garbage day - and not a lot of bears show up at the roadside during business hours.

 

Common sense is better than shooting. And I intended to say shooting a coon with a rifle was the best option. Sorry about that.

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I agree fuzz, the management of waste is the problem creating the nuisance animals. What we do is wait for the garbage truck to come by and bring him the trash. Other wise it would be shredded within less than an hour. We also never kept animal feed out in the barns. It was all locked up either in the concrete block milk house or in the laundry room attached to the back of the house. The dryer for some reason scared the heck out of them. We wouldn't even feed the outdoor cats more then they could eat in one sitting. And most of the time I sat outside and watched them eat.

 

 

My neighbor that the bear got into the barn tried everything to keep the bear away. Locking feed up. Had multiple loud dogs. Nothing was working. We even strung electric wire around the whole property, the bear just tore the fences to pieces.

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