Improving the Vines

[Plaguefly]

I REALLY doubt there is any intended sexism....Why is this even being called an issue? They're little sprites of dragons...Just because a pose is less action-y doesn't mean anything...I mean I...I'm just REALLY shocked that this is even being brought up as an issue...I know I'm gonna get bitten and chewed for this but...I'm gonna stop posting off-topic now :c

 

I REALLY can't wait to see these updates, no matter what the female looks like

[DarkEternity]

-snip-

Renorei, point well made. I can see the sexism quite clearly in it :/

 

And I do tend to avoid the female sprites and prefer their male counterparts, with the exception of blacks and hellfires. :/

 

EDIT: though there is the tradeoff, the more vibrant and visible males have a higher mortality rate

The fitness benefits of these outcomes tend to increase the prevalence of

genes that promote male risk-taking and competitive ability at the expense of

decreased investment in repair capacity and disease prevention (Daly and Wilson,

1978). This is the evolutionary reason why females live longer on average in most

animal species (Hazzard, 1990).

Edited January 4, 2012 by DarkEternity

[Wiz]

Yes! Yesssss!  This is the kind of input I want to see. Pour out what you want for your dragons!  I shall aim to hit as many marks as I can! :3

Well in that case ...

I've always pictured my Vines as badass+++. If anything the females even more so than the males. I see them as being as territorial and in your face, mine mine mine, as the males but with an extra viciousness about them, sort of paranoid serial killer with permanent PMS (sorry but it's how I see them). I don't like the sneaky plotting idea simply because I don't see them that way. To me they (males and females) are much more in your face, ready and waiting for that intruder they know is just out of sight ready to take what's theirs. So my vote is for snarlyface.

 

Edited to add a word I missed out.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Wiz

[SandstormL]

I voted yes, I'd love to see the vines all done up and stuffs.

 

I also entirely agree to what Renorei had said, except for ONE thing. The pygmy females, personally I love their pose, with their heads held high and wings open, in my opinion, it looks like she's trying to strike a pose <3

Edited January 4, 2012 by SandstormL

[Stromboli]

I REALLY doubt there is any intended sexism....Why is this even being called an issue? They're little sprites of dragons...

Hence the 'subconscious' part of Renorei's explanation.

 

But, intended or not, that's the trend that the female sprites have taken in the Cave. It's an issue because some of us would rather not see it in a Vine update.

[Syphoneira]

I'm really hoping for BOTH, for the best of both worlds, in the day/night poses you suggested!

 

(As an aside, I find it interesting that some people react so strongly to having unconscious sexism pointed out.)

 

 

[Plaguefly]

I do understand that, I guess what I'm trying to say is I think people are reading WAY too much into things...

 

It just kind of seems insulting to accuse the spriters of being sexist without knowing anything about their intentions at all.

 

EDIT: It's not like it bothers me I just think it's a silly thing to point out when all you have to go by are pictures..

Edited January 4, 2012 by Plaguefly

[Stromboli]

(As an aside, I find it interesting that some people react so strongly to having unconscious sexism pointed out.)

Eh, it's something I had kind of noticed, particularly with that big release of dimorphism a while back, but I was fairly sure it wasn't a great big old FEMALES ARE WEAKER rhetoric or anything like that... And I am kind of guilty of it myself on one of my concept dragons. ^-^;

 

But for Vines, I really want to see something... wild. Not some tame, soft, round little lady.

 

 

ETA:

It just kind of seems insulting to accuse the spriters of being sexist without knowing anything about their intentions at all.

No one's accusing. It's just the impression that the sprites are giving.

 

And really, we're not reading that deep into this. It's basic body language. Lowered heads, calmer poses, smaller frills, fewer horns, lither bodies. All leads to a daintier, tamer looking creature. And that this image is seen pretty often in the female sprites starts to give the impression that females are generally smaller and less aggressive than their male counterparts. Which, with a creature like dragons, need not be the case.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Stromboli

[Syphoneira]

I do understand that, I guess what I'm trying to say is I think people are reading WAY too much into things...

 

It just kind of seems insulting to accuse the spriters of being sexist without knowing anything about their intentions at all.

 

EDIT: It's not like it bothers me I just think it's a silly thing to point out when all you have to go by are pictures..

 

 

Oh, nobody's accusing anyone, as mentioned, it's unconscious and permeates society so thoroughly that many people don't even notice it.

 

We have centuries of indoctrination to overcome, after all.

 

 

[Verridith]

These are dragons.  They are fantasy creatures, an escape from reality.  There is no reason whatsoever why dragons need to exhibit this "fancy male / subtle female" trope, and for that matter, in the grand scheme of things there are fewer animals that exhibit this trope than you seem to realize.

-ka-SNIP-plz-

....quite literally facepalmed in the middle of reading and did not make it to the end.

 

I think you're overthinking this? U: A lot of artists will base their fantasy creatures around REAL creatures, to bring a little realism to the table. I like diversity, but I like realism too And you can't have one without the other, lol.

 

Not to mention if you actually asked the artists what their sprites are doing you may learn that the sprites are how they were intended to be. If they wanted the female sprite to be RAWR I'MMA EATCHOO then they would have. Did they? No. Did they want to? Probably not, or it would have been sprited differently.

 

Edited because post was a monster and I did not want to take up space.

 

MAOR EDIT: ...I also know that these are dragons. Lol'd over that while doing dishes. I've probably sprited, sketched and drawn hundreds of the silly things; I *think* I know what I'm talking about. (;

Edited January 4, 2012 by Verridith

[Guest]

Lol 258 vs 38 |D

 

YesYesyesyesyes YES. YES PLEASE.

 

Dimorphism :'3

Does that also count for the alts?

[Stromboli]

Does that also count for the alts?

Nope, all of this only applies to the regular. Any hatchling or adult sprite change wouldn't change alt hatchlings or adults.

[Lythiaren]

This is an interesting proposal!

 

I think I would vote against changing the egg; it's not like people can freeze them (despite occasional requests for this feature, heh!), so they're only around for 7 days, max.  I don't really see a point to changing the description, either; does it matter if they're found in 'mysterious cave grass' or regular grass?  (If they've caveborn, they ought to be in the cave; or are ALL vine eggs rejected by their mother and pushed out of the cave before birth?)

 

The hatchlings... could go either way.  Once you pointed it out, I wasn't fond of the bicoloured horns on the wingless one.  On the other hand, I've been in the cave for 2+ years and never noticed.  *laughs*  It might be neat to leave the current alt hatchling as-is, and change the hatchie for the common form.  I don't think I'd change both, though.  *shrugs*  Having two more differentiated forms, like blacks and alt blacks, might be appealing to people.

 

Dimorphism I would vote against.  The primary reason is that Vines already have alt forms.  Players who want to collect all stages of every dragon would have to pick up a LOT of Vines to complete their collections if dimorphism were introduced -- adult alts male and female, hatchling alts male and female, adult commons male and female, AND adult hatchlings male and female!   While I realise popularity of various breeds does change over time, Vines are currently pretty popular, and I worry that they'd become downright scarce if there were eight different forms available. 

 

One thing:  I would really like to NOT see the current alt adult sprite changed!

There have been concerns in the past regarding the disparity between the eggs and their descriptions. I would like them to line up because the description is misleading; it makes you think it's got a form of planty magic when the adult clearly states that they are completely devoid of magical ability.

 

As for hatchlings, I do believe I stated quite clearly that I'm not touching the alt hatchling, only the regular one. So they would be different. So people can tell if they have an alt, at a glance.

 

As for the adults, I'm afraid I don't understand your concern. I'm... not touching the alts. At all. I never said I was. They're Silvanon's, the normal vine is mine and that's what is being changed. Alts were never a part of this proposal to begin with.

 

 

And to everyone who's arguing about the sexism thing:

 

┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)

 

Chill out bro. I'd like this thread to remain relatively drama free. Can we leave the tables unflipped, please?

Edited January 4, 2012 by Lythiaren

[PonyTales]

Out of curiosity, would the males and females have roughly the same colours? (e.g. like the pinks as opposed to the hellfires)

 

I ask becuase I have been doing a rainbow project like this dragon here and hugely different colours would mean I'll have to find another dark green dragon

 

Otherwise, the vine update sounds lovely ^^

[blah]

Regarding the snarlyface/sneakyface thing... I'm kind of curious what the female that you have looks like, but on the other hand, I think of the vine as one of the most evil creatures we have in the cave, I'd like to see snarling.

 

Then again, sneaky fits the "hiding under my plants until you walk in my trap" thing they have going on.

 

I say do not show us any sprites beforehand though, the chance of becoming attached to one that might not be chosen is too sad.

 

So... conclusion? If you don't mind the extra-work, I'd love for you to try a snarlyface version. If it doesn't come out the way you'd like it to, I'm sure the sprite you already have is awesome, too and I'd be happy to see it in the cave.

[Syphoneira]

Perhaps we can ask the bossman what he thinks! Maybe they can change between the sprites on a day/night cycle like Nocturnes.  Bad mood in the day, sneakyplotting at night! Though then I wonder if I should do the same for the male.

 

 

This would be so much cooler than anything!

 

Female clawing up out of her hole like a ravening fiend in the day, sneakyplotface lurking at night, seeking whom she may devour that foolishly steps too close to her lair...

 

*has fingers, toes and eyes crossed for this*

 

 

 

Edit: sneaky delayed bluing-out of words that disappear, probably snatched by Vines...

Edited January 4, 2012 by Syphoneira

[Wortgewaltig]

When I heard that there were plans to change the Vines I nearly had a fit as I do simply them as they are now.

 

I was afraid that there would be an update as for the Gold one, removing the old charming sprite because of its socalled flaws and replacing it completely. But after reading Lythiarens posts and thinking about her carefully made plans I vote for the change. It´s not a renewal but some kind of... let´s call it evolution. I am kind of eager now to get to know Mrs. Vine

 

[me002]

Guys, this is a thread about VINE DRAGONS, if you wannt to keep on discussing things like sexism among dragons, i suggest you make your own thread to do it n stop blocking the development of ideas with random posts :/.

Edited January 4, 2012 by jetcomb

[Lythiaren]

Out of curiosity, would the males and females have roughly the same colours? (e.g. like the pinks as opposed to the hellfires)

Yes. The only significant chromatic differences will be some flowers and some eyeballs. The green will be made less minty, and the plant and dragon will have their shades adjusted so people can actually see which part is what.

[perzephone]

I am for updating since it sounds like the changes are going to be minimal to the original adult sprite. I think you summed up your reasons well, and it would make it easier to see. I am not much on this dragon having dimorphism. I don't know about others, but I have a hard time telling the gender of plants. So maybe dimorphism is not important?

Had to read through 8 pages of this thread to see that I'm not the only one who thinks this way. With a very few notable exceptions, there are no major differences between a male or female plant. Some plants have male and female flowers on the same plant, and unless you get into pistils & stamens, they are pretty much exactly alike.

 

If you want the Vine to be more plant-y, dimorphism wouldn't be the way to go. If you want it more dragon-y, then it doesn't matter.

 

I would love some color/pose updates, mainly to make the dragon easier to see. Looking at the regular Vines make me feel like I'm colorblind - it's all greeeeeeen. I've always loved the concept of the Vines - they're the ant-lions of the dragon world.

 

Lythiarien, you always do beautiful stuff, so it'll probably be top-notch when it's revealed

 

edited to add some science crap: In snakes, about 60% of the species out there have larger females. In only about 15% of snake species do the males have any type of pre-mating competitions with other male snakes, and about half of those species have larger females. Snakes, for the most part, do not exhibit color dimorphism in adults - and most do not engage in courtship displays.

 

In lizards, though, there is considerable size bias, favoring males, and more lizard species engage in pre-mating combat between males than do not. Male lizards are usually longer from snout to vent, and have longer limbs and tails. Females usually do have bigger trunks and wider bodies, and may or may not weigh more than a similarly sized male. Lizards have more instances of color dimorphism and mating-season-based color changes because, like birds, they engage in flashy pre-mating courtship displays.

Edited January 4, 2012 by perzephone

[FluffyPillow]

I'm torn between the female Vines having a day/night feature like the Nocturnes, or them being all snarly/vicious 24/7, since they are dangerous dragons. I still think a compromise between hidden and snarly would be awesome, though the day/night thing would be awesome too :3 Since they're dangerous dragons, the female should be just as vicious, if not more than her male counterpart (like the Hellfire's) :3 Hidden/guarding herself, yet dangerous and snarling. I'm curious as to what the female will (or what she'll) look like

[Dolphinsong]

Actually among the lizards I find the females to be larger than the males. My husband had a pair of Bearded Dragons, got them both at the exact same age as hatchlings. When they were old enough to 'prob' by an expert to discover their gender it turned out he had one male and one female. And guess what? The female ended up TWICE the size as her male brother! They both eat the same amount of food too so don't crop it up to feeding rate.

[annageckos]

Actually among the lizards I find the females to be larger than the males. My husband had a pair of Bearded Dragons, got them both at the exact same age as hatchlings. When they were old enough to 'prob' by an expert to discover their gender it turned out he had one male and one female. And guess what? The female ended up TWICE the size as her male brother! They both eat the same amount of food too so don't crop it up to feeding rate.

That is unusual in beardies. The males are normally bigger, as are most lizards. Female pythons and boas are normally larger then males however. There are different strains of beardies, so it is possible that your male and female came from two different lines. It is also pretty easy to sex beardies without probing them.

Edited January 4, 2012 by annageckos

[Dolphinsong]

They were from the same clutch of eggs so they are siblings =p

[LadyLyzar]

Reminder: This topic is about potential updates to the vines, and not about perceived sexism in dimorphism.

 

Please return to the topic. Thank you.