Improving the Vines

[Obscure_Trash]

Just went through all the breeds and the genders I find dynamic are pretty much evenly split between males and females, so I'm fine with whatever vine does whatever. o3o

[me002]

Well, i'll start by saying that i like very much vines as they are n i'll like them when they're updated too, i think that the choice of sprite is up to you lythiaren, both of them are neat ideas n i'll judge only when you get the permission to post the sprites. i do not mind whether the sprite is more devilish or just a roaring plantzilla, but people which threaten to release a dragon if they do not like the update are just not fair towards people which like the other sprite...

i slightly tend towards the more ferocious sprite, i'd love to see the wild nature of vine dragons displayed in both males n females. As you suggested, Adding fangs would greatly contribute to the result. n in my op., drawing something like flying pieces of ground would make it seem a surprise attack much more

Edited January 4, 2012 by jetcomb

[FluffyPillow]

I know I said I'd be quiet, but a thought came to mind (if it hasn't been thought of already) :3 I'll have to re-read the posts to see if was said, but what if the female was both sneaky/hidden looking, yet still have a snarling expression? She'd still look vicious enough, yet at the same time, be more like she's protecting herself while hidden/being sneaky, kinda like how a cat hides and hisses/snarls when threatened. I don't know, just a thought ^^;

[Zovesta]

I know I said I'd be quiet, but a thought came to mind (if it hasn't been thought of already) :3 I'll have to re-read the posts to see if was said, but what if the female was both sneaky/hidden looking, yet still have a snarling expression? She'd still look vicious enough, yet at the same time, be more like she's protecting herself while hidden/being sneaky, kinda like how a cat hides and hisses/snarls when threatened. I don't know, just a thought ^^;

Hm, I think Lyth already brought this up. Honestly, I kind of like this idea. You can be a dangerous brute without being a complete moron, after all (would be sort of hard for a whole species to survive like this). The male isn't exactly charging, more like "HEY! HEY YOU. GTFO OR I SWEAR I WILL CUT YOU", so I think a female protecting herself kind of while looking nasty would be great. ^^ A neat compromise?

Edited January 4, 2012 by Zovesta

[thiefofhearts]

Yes. You can suffer from an -ism (like sexism) and still be an -ist.

 

The problem with the female being the demure/sneaky one is stereotypes. Here's a movie example. If you were to pick 10 random movies and find out what roles the females played, over 90% of the time the females would be less aggressive/proactive than the males. One or two movies doing that? No problem. Ten doing that? Problem.

 

So Lythiaren making one set of sprites that fall into that isn't the problem. The problem is that there's hardly any examples of the reverse.

 

Anyway! Still voting for the snarlyface or switched genders.

yeah but a lot of people are saying they dont really see a lot of the different gendered sprites "suffering" from that. Maybe one or two, but most are saying they are the exception, not the rule. Lyth's new sprite would be another exception.

 

without looking at the gender markers on a sprite's name, (and not knowing ahead of time ) you can't really tell which one is male or female for most sprites. Look at the harvest, stripes, blunas, pinks, sunrise/set etc.

 

what I DID notice was that females tend to be the sitting pose a lot of the time, but if you took someone who never played dragon cave before and asked which dragon was what gender i don't think they would be able to tell. i dont think sitting more means the female is inactive or tries to imply "they are less of a dragon" than males. I think spriters look at it from an artistical stand point and just want to show off different sides, angles, and features of their work. i.e. "make it pretty."

 

i can understand asking for a more dynamic pose but the idea that sprites may be (even unconsciously) based on sexism is really way out there in left field.

[Verridith]

But Blazeh, nature has it the other way around sometimes too. An angry momma bear is probably the last thing a person wants to run into.

LOL it took me so long to find this post. XDD

 

True. I like to have some females when I'm spriting look less-fancy than the males, but still have a somewhat-aura of 'touch my baby and you die', lol. Like, colored less fancy and more meek looking but have the equipment to gut a threat if needed~

[BlueSkyy]

I honestly don't care about dimorphism/who gets what expression/etc.

 

I just want an awesome new sprite (or two!) so I can get a vine for my scroll. I never got one in the past because the sprite never suited my tastes, but the idea behind it was so cool. I'm really excited for a chance at an update! I think it/they'll look great, regardless of which gender (if you dimorph them) gets what expression.

[kerrikins]

Hm.

 

Re: sexism... Idk, I'm a pretty adamant feminist but I don't have issues with that when it comes to sprites. I mean, I *love* that the female hellfires are so epic, but I don't think that it's necessary for every single female sprite have the same level of ferocity that the males do. These are based off of nature, after all. I think dimorphism and how its presented to be faithful to what the spriter sees for their creations, not what we want to push on the sprite.

 

So I am \o/ over the idea of dimorphism and being able to see the sprite better! It took me ages to see the dragon's head, so I'm looking forward to a change to that.

[Zovesta]

yeah but a lot of people are saying they dont really see a lot of the different gendered sprites "suffering" from that. Maybe one or two, but most are saying they are the exception, not the rule. Lyth's new sprite would be another exception.

 

without looking at the gender markers on a sprite's name, (and not knowing ahead of time ) you can't really tell which one is male or female for most sprites. Look at the harvest, stripes, blunas, pinks, sunrise/set etc.

 

what I DID notice was that females tend to be the sitting pose a lot of the time, but if you took someone who never played dragon cave before and asked which dragon was what gender i don't think they would be able to tell. i dont think sitting more means the female is inactive or tries to imply "they are less of a dragon" than males. I think spriters look at it from an artistical stand point and just want to show off different sides, angles, and features of their work. i.e. "make it pretty."

 

i can understand asking for a more dynamic pose but the idea that sprites may be (even unconsciously) based on sexism is really way out there in left field.

For the record, I just asked my sister, who had only seen the sprites in passing and definitely didn't know the genders to determine the genders of 12 sprites. The: Daydreams, purples, golds, pinks, moonstones, terrae, sunsong, bbw, spring, harvest, sunset, shallow water. Out of those twelve, she only got two wrong (the bbw and sunset). She was guessing entirely based on how demure or how many horns and such they had. Her own wording was: "Let me say this: I didn't exactly see any angler fish in the bunch."

 

So, yeah. This is getting a little off topic, though, so I'll just say that and step out until I can contribute to the original discussion.

[Lythiaren]

I'm having trouble seeing how the male daydream screams "Yo I'm a dude", but hey.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Lythiaren

[Zovesta]

I'm having trouble seeing how the male daydream screams "Yo I'm a dude", but hey.

She thought it was a more action-y pose. In general, though, I really like how that dimorphism turned out.

[Stromboli]

Honestly, the only dragon I know of where it's plainly stated that the males are stronger than the females is the Silver, vice versa for Hellfires. Other than that, there's not much, description wise. I mean, I can see how a great many of the female sprites appear shier and more diminutive than their male counterparts (and I can go through the list, if you're curious, but not here), but there's no indication that they're actually weaker than the males, or that they couldn't be just as fierce if they needed to be.

 

 

That said, I'd really like something that could in no way be perceived as shy or coy for a new Lady Vine sprite. I'm all for makin' 'em mean green mommas. :3

Edited January 4, 2012 by Stromboli

[Syphoneira]

Perhaps we can ask the bossman what he thinks! Maybe they can change between the sprites on a day/night cycle like Nocturnes.  Bad mood in the day, sneakyplotting at night! Though then I wonder if I should do the same for the male.

 

 

That would be AWESOME!

 

Although in a way, I'd rather see the male stay the same (even if slightly spiffed) sprite because many of us would REALLY rather not lose all of our older, long-beloved sprites to updating, although I suppose he would be for half of each day... and it wouldn't be very fair to the male to not let him show the progression the female could...

 

 

 

Edit: if I may, I just like to add, as a general comment on some I've seen, that I don't think the female Vine is exactly "protecting herself" by looking snarly, but rather preparing to eat anyone who comes within reach... just exactly like the male.

 

Kinda different personality traits and intentions, lol.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Syphoneira

[Completely Different]

On the whole, I don't see that many examples of the males being more violent/strong than the females in the sprites (although I suppose a couple exist). That said, I think I would prefer if the female was just as aggressive as the male. The Sneaky Female/Femme Fatale is a common trope, and I like when its averted.

 

I do sort of like the Night Sneaky Face idea, though. Night is when the creepy, sly things come out to scare you...

[stogucheme]

Still asking for switched sprites, but...for people in general who don't think there's a problem:

yeah but a lot of people are saying they dont really see a lot of the different gendered sprites "suffering" from that. Maybe one or two, but most are saying they are the exception, not the rule. Lyth's new sprite would be another exception.

 

without looking at the gender markers on a sprite's name, (and not knowing ahead of time ) you can't really tell which one is male or female for most sprites. Look at the harvest, stripes, blunas, pinks, sunrise/set etc.

 

what I DID notice was that females tend to be the sitting pose a lot of the time, but if you took someone who never played dragon cave before and asked which dragon was what gender i don't think they would be able to tell. i dont think sitting more means the female is inactive or tries to imply "they are less of a dragon" than males. I think spriters look at it from an artistical stand point and just want to show off different sides, angles, and features of their work. i.e. "make it pretty."

 

i can understand asking for a more dynamic pose but the idea that sprites may be (even unconsciously) based on sexism is really way out there in left field.

You. I do not like you. You made me load the wiki page to view all the dimorphic sprites. The next part is me being ridiculously picky and you're gonna think I'm an extremist.

Running through all of them, examples of the male being more active/aggressive than the female:

Black- eh. BBW- eh. Canopy- example. Daydream- example. Electric- eh. Ember- example. Flamingo Wyvern- eh. Gray- example. Harvest- example. Fellfire- *shiny* Moonstone- example. Nebula- love it. Neo- eh. Nocturne- eh. Pillow-eh. Pink- eh. Purple- example. Ridgewing- eh. Seasonal (Winter)- example. Stripe- eh... Sunrise- eh. Sunset- eh... Sunsong- good. Swallowtail- eh. Terrae- eh... Split- n/a. Water- eh... Water Horse- example. Dark Myst- reverse example. Misfit- eh. Seawyrm- eh. Original Pygmy- eh. (new) Gold- eh. Silver- eh. Alt Black- eh... Geode- eh. Shallow Water- hoo boy, is that an example... Bluna- eh... Vamp- eh. Marrow- eh.

 

('Eh.' means I don't really have an opinion on them. 'Eh...' means it's on the edge.) Canopy is an example because the male is proud and bold, whereas the female is calmly lying down. Daydream- the female is not in an active pose, the male is. Ember- the male's roaring, the female's glaring. Gray- the female is more...protective? than the male. Harvest- the female's curious; the male's ramming something. Moonstone- female's shyly looking to the side, the male's proud. Purple- the male looks more aggressive. Winter- the male's attacking something, the female's not. Water Horse- female's less aggressive. Dark Myst- the male's curious, the female's furious. Goldfish- the female's got her fins down, she's definitely submissive.

That's 10/39 I have issues with.

[skinst]

You can't expect EVERY breed to have females that are going to say "RAAAAAAAAAWRRRRHHH" at everything, though. That'd just be boring. :/

[ferdelance]

This is an interesting proposal!

 

I think I would vote against changing the egg; it's not like people can freeze them (despite occasional requests for this feature, heh!), so they're only around for 7 days, max. I don't really see a point to changing the description, either; does it matter if they're found in 'mysterious cave grass' or regular grass? (If they've caveborn, they ought to be in the cave; or are ALL vine eggs rejected by their mother and pushed out of the cave before birth?)

 

The hatchlings... could go either way. Once you pointed it out, I wasn't fond of the bicoloured horns on the wingless one. On the other hand, I've been in the cave for 2+ years and never noticed. *laughs* It might be neat to leave the current alt hatchling as-is, and change the hatchie for the common form. I don't think I'd change both, though. *shrugs* Having two more differentiated forms, like blacks and alt blacks, might be appealing to people.

 

Dimorphism I would vote against. The primary reason is that Vines already have alt forms. Players who want to collect all stages of every dragon would have to pick up a LOT of Vines to complete their collections if dimorphism were introduced -- adult alts male and female, hatchling alts male and female, adult commons male and female, AND adult hatchlings male and female! While I realise popularity of various breeds does change over time, Vines are currently pretty popular, and I worry that they'd become downright scarce if there were eight different forms available.

 

One thing: I would really like to NOT see the current alt adult sprite changed!

[Zovesta]

You can't expect EVERY breed to have females that are going to say "RAAAAAAAAAWRRRRHHH" at everything, though. That'd just be boring. :/

And we can't expect every breed to have males that do the same. =V The point is, so far, the "RAAAAWRH" females have been the exception, not the rule. These are dragons (dragons based off of reptiles mind you), so why not have another exception?

[Maristara]

I see no reason why the male and female sprites can't both be "RAAAAWRH."

 

The breed is described as "very violent"

 

Bring on the viciousness!

[SunQuest]

I am for updating since it sounds like the changes are going to be minimal to the original adult sprite. I think you summed up your reasons well, and it would make it easier to see. I am not much on this dragon having dimorphism. I don't know about others, but I have a hard time telling the gender of plants. So maybe dimorphism is not important? Or if it is, then both should look equally tough.

 

Since I don't collect frozen hatchlings, I can't vote in favor or against updating those sprites.

 

As for the description of the egg, I prefer the good old original. It makes the dragon sound like some mysterious plant. After all there are plenty of plants that grow and flower in low light. And the descrtiption does not say where in the cave this dragon is other than that it is in the cave. Heck, there could be a large reflected light souce in there, or the plants could be at the enterance of the cave with the enterance facing east so that the dragons get a lot of early morning light while being shaded from the harsh full sun that the afternoon brings.

 

Just my thought for what they are worth.

 

[skinst]

And we can't expect every breed to have males that do the same. =V The point is, so far, the "RAAAAWRH" females have been the exception, not the rule. These are dragons (dragons based off of reptiles mind you), so why not have another exception?

According to the poster I was addressing, of the 39 dimorphed sprites, 10 were considered demure.

 

Therefore, looks like being demure is the minority.

[Silverlight138]

hmm about the egg descriptions, i think changing it is important, since now that you have pointed out that it doesnt match the vines' description XO and yes, it is definitely going to cause a load of commotion in the cave. maybe TJ could put some in-game notification on the cave home page?

 

EDIT : i would love to have the female vines being all aggresive and snarly! X3 its gonna be so smexy. Besides, in the animal kingdom, females are sometimes fiercer and more aggresive than the males. like the praying mantis.. or something, if im not wrong >_< the female eat the male's head after mating :X

Edited January 4, 2012 by Silverlight138

[Dolphinsong]

Guys, do remember, THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT THE ALT VINES JUST THE NORMAL ONES. This means the alts will be UNTOUCHED.

 

This means the current hatchling sprites WILL still live on through the alt vine set. Nor will the adult alt vines change in any way either. The Dimorphism is only going to be on the normal vines.

[Renorei]

...just a note here, have you ever looked at Nature? U:

 

Especially in birds, the male is brighter and more colorful than the female. Lions, lizards, insects, fish... there are a LOT of creatures that reflect this dimorphism. I am all for making the male fancy and the female more subtle, because that is simply nature.

 

Also, Hellfires are the exact opposite of what is shown above. The female could kick the male's tail. =P

These are dragons. They are fantasy creatures, an escape from reality. There is no reason whatsoever why dragons need to exhibit this "fancy male / subtle female" trope, and for that matter, in the grand scheme of things there are fewer animals that exhibit this trope than you seem to realize.

 

The Hellfire Wyvern is the only notable example of any dragon in the cave where the female dragon looks as if she is the physical superior to the male. For all the other dragon breeds, the female looks as if she is the the physical equal or the physical inferior to the male.

 

 

 

 

(This part to follow isn't directed at anyone in particular, but might be something that people might find informative/enlightening if they pay more attention to DC's sprites.)

Typical "Subconsciously Sexist" traits that sprites often exhibit:

 

Openess/Closedness

This encompasses a lot of things. "Openess" can include things like flared wings or flared spines/fins, an open mouth, a pose that shows off more of the chest. "Closedness" can include things like folded wings, lowered spines/fins, closed mouth, a pose that closes off the chest and front of body, etc.

 

Examples:

-Blacks - males have open mouths and flared wings, females have closed mouths and folded wings

-Black alt - male is facing forward with his chest displayed, female is hiding herself

-Blunas - male's spines are raised and his wings are out, female's spines are lowered and her wings are folded

-Canopy - male's wings are outstretched and he is displaying himself, female's wings are closed

-Flamingo - male in an open pose with chest facing viewer, female's chest away from viewer

-Shallow Water - male's spines/fins raised, female's lowered

-Storm - female's body is more condensed, almost closed in upon itself, male's body is more stretched out in an more open pose

-Black Marrows - male's wings outstretched, female's wings more folded. Here the female is the one with the chest facing the viewer but this small victory is mitigated by the fact that her wings are missing the red tips, she has smaller horns, and she is in a generally less dynamic pose

-Waters - male's spines/fins are flared, female's are lowered

-Moonstones - female is in a coy pose like she is hiding herself, male is in a proud pose like he has nothing to hide

-Purple - female's wings are folded, male's wings are raised

-Spring Seasonal - female's wings more folded, seems to be "hiding" herself a bit more

-Autumn Seasonal - both genders have open wings but the male is displaying his chest towards us and showing off the "pretty" side of the wings

 

 

Head Higher Relative to Rest of Body

All too often, you see dragons in poses where the male's head is way above his hips, and the female's head is below her hips, or level to her hips, or above her hips but only barely (especially compared to the male). There are some exceptions, but often in the exceptions, the female has nevertheless been posed in a hyper-feminine way or the male has somehow been given a more active pose (i.e. the pinks--male's head is below his hips and female's head is above her hips, but nevertheless the female looks coy and "coquette-ish" somehow while the male looks curious and active like he is checking something out, or the daydreams, where the female is in a more passive pose while the male is stepping off his cloud to go explore something).

 

Examples:

-Blacks

-Canopies

-Electrics

-Embers

-Shallow Waters

-Storms

-Nocturnes

-Autumn Seasonals

-Silvers

-Swallowtails

-Terraes

-Water Horses

 

Physical Differences (Anatomy/Colors/Size)

A lot of times you will see dragons where the male has been given better/bolder colors, more horns or other interesting features, or simply a larger sprite.

 

Examples:

-Canopies - female sprite is smaller both in both length and width

-New Golds (this is a trade-off, because while the male's sprite is larger, the female has arguably the more interesting pose)

-Embers - male is larger in both dimensions

-Shallow Waters - male is large and tough, female looks small and somewhat feeble compared to the male

-Storms - male's horns are way bigger

-Black Marrows - male has larger horns, cool-looking red tips on his wings, and more pronounced bony ridges protruding from his back

-Moonstones - male has bold colors, female's colors are pale and less striking

-Pillows - male has bolder colors (this one's actually a toss-up, because while the male has the bolder color the female has the better pose, by far)

-Purples - male has those cool whiskers and a larger sprite

-Summer Seasonals - female looks kinda scrawny and skinny next to the male

-Stripes - male's sprite is larger--because it is larger, more detail is apparent and he looks more refined somehow

-Swallowtails - male's colors are bolder

-Terraes - male has gorgeous wings, female lacks them entirely.

-Vampires - male has bold colors while female has pale colors, female is missing the spines on her back

-Water Horses - male sprite is noticeable larger

 

Pose

This is the one that upsets me the most. All too often the male is in a pose that looks more active and dynamic, while the female is in a pose that looks less active and less dynamic, while also being more demure and more passive.

 

Examples:

-Blacks - they are both in active poses but the open mouth and flared wings make the male look more dynamic

-Blunas - male is in an active dynamic pose while the female is just kinda sitting there

-Canopy - male is in mid-flight, female crouching looking less active

-Daydreams - male is doing stuff, female is sitting there looking around

-Electrics - male is in a mid-leap, female is standing there with one leg raised

-Embers - male is reared up, roaring, ready to charge, female is standing there. Granted her feet are planted in a battle stance and her expression looks like she could/would kill you if you messed with her, but nevertheless she is waiting for YOU to make the move while the male sprite has already taken action and is ready to hurt somebody.

-Flamingo - I'm uncertain if this one fits or not. To me the male looks more threatening, whereas the female looks like she is just kinda looking up to the male. But meh.

-Shallow Waters - male looks "epic" and "badass", female looks kinda "shy"

-Black Marrows - female is sitting around. Male is doing stuff.

-Harvests - male is in motion, like he's about to ram something. Female is sitting.

-Neotropicals - male's head is raised, his front legs are splayed, his ears are up, and he looks proud. Female's head is lowered, her front legs are together, her ears are folded against her head/neck, and she looks shy...almost ashamed.

-Purple - male in an active pose, female in a passive pose

-Pygmy - male in mid-flight, female grounded

-Ridgewing - male doing some kind of epic mid-flight manuever, female doing a curtsy or bow or something a lot less cool

-Winter Seasonal - female sitting there looking boring, male has his front limbs raised like he's about to jump or something

-Stripes - the raised front leg of the male adds interest, on the female all feet are on the ground

 

 

 

So yes, there are a lot of ways in which spriters display a certain amount of "subconscious sexism" in their sprites without intending to. There are several truly glorious sprites in which neither sprite looks like "the male" or "the female", but more often than not, someone could tell which was intended to be which even if they didn't know better. Sprites which I think did a good job of not being "subconsciously sexist": nocturnes, nebulas, sunsongs, sunrises/sunsets. I wish all spriters who plan on having dimorphism would take a page from the book of these spriters. Someone who doesn't know any better would never be able to tell which of these was intended as the male and which was intended as the female, and IMO that's the way it should be.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Renorei

[Reidragon]

and Imo I like my females a bit more demure and refined xP

 

I suppose you can't please everyone though.

 

One persons trash is another's treasure and all that.

 

I personally see nothing wrong with some of the female sprites being demure?

 

Regardless though this isn't really the place to discuss sexism at all.

 

Back on topic on the vines the day and night poses do sound rather interesting. As nocturnes are the only sprites that currently have this feature another set with it would be nice :3