Improving the Vines

[Lythiaren]

The new colors for the male sprite...is it your avatar? (One of them, anyway...) Because personally, I don't like the color palette. There is less color variation and more shade variation, which to my eyes makes it a bit boring. I guess...I like sprites that are more dynamic?

 

Overall, I would not like the Vines to change. I like them as they are, and would feel awkward if they changed. That is up to your discretion, though.

No, the one in my avatar is an old version, the old 16-colour "final" version from way back when. The current iteration has green scutes as well, but I am considering giving them back the gold ones as it's part of what makes the dragon pop, and the minty plant is... kind of gross. :V

 

Regarding the request for a more active female, though, I'm hesitant to redo her again because this is a breed that is known to hunt using subtlety and camouflage.

 

I can, however, attempt a new version of the female that is a little more active than she currently is. The original idea for her had her climbing up out of the hole, snout snarling upward from under the leaves. It never happened because I was having trouble getting it down on paper the way I wanted, so I hid her under the plant with a sneaky look on her face instead. She is less epic than I wanted her to be, but she is deliciously evil nonetheless.

 

Which would people prefer? Clawing out with the snarlyface, or hiding with sneakyplotface? The former would naturally take longer to get the sprites to TJ because I'd have to go through the whole spriting process again, but if it's what more people want, then that's what I will do. Partly because I still think it would be awesome if I can pull that off without messing up her scutes.

 

By the way, the two will differ more in the plant than anything else. The lady has three yellow flowers while the male has two red. Their eyes will match their respective flowers, but that's where the obvious physical differences end.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Lythiaren

[Sundew]

Personally I'd prefer that Vines don't have dimorphism, but from what you've described, "clawing out with snarlyface" sounds both cooler and more equal to the current/male sprite--a more blunt aggression rather than looking sinister. When it comes to evil females, people usually picture someone sneaky, but sneaky doesn't say "Vine" to me. :3 If I'm wrong and they are sneaky, then by all means, do the sneakier sprite, but the snarlyface just seems more awesomer, especially crawling out of the ground all zombie-like.

[yieldy]

I've always loved the normal vine sprite, but never the colors , to be honest, so yep I'm totally up for making it green-er.

As a whole I voted "I support only part of this plan." and as it is:

 

Change of the Egg description - Neutral about it.

Change of the hatchie - I'm for recolor/reshading only :> (sorry, I just love them as a set, as they are: old pink, red, holly, normal-alt vines) Perhaps putting a little dirt below those hanging vines coming out of nowhere (if you're allowed to do that for them both - normal and alt) so that they would still look like they're attached to the body. And anyhow, I still can't be sure, as I've never seen the other hatchie.. hope TJ allows them to be shown :]

Change of sprite - recolor/shading only (same sprite/outlines)

Dimorphism - YES, PLEASE!^^

 

That's just my 2 cents though and I see most people would love a total change, so I guess it's happening.

[MissVampire13]

I think this is a great idea, particularly because it was proposed by the breed's own creator and spriter. If you think you can improve an already lovely piece of art (and I'm confident that you certainly can), then go for it! I really liked learning more about vines from your original post, and I especially think an update on the hatchling sprite would be great. It just kinda seems weird to me that we still have a few breeds sharing recolors of the same hatchie sprite. =P

[Verridith]

Yes to everything else, but please please no dimorphism! In principle, I don't hate dimorphism, but I hate the way it is usually executed. The males usually look epic/badass/dangerous while the females end up looking more demure, or, at best, threatening in a more subtle way. If you're going to do dimorphism, make the female just as tough-looking and in-your-face vicious as the male. The way you describe the female having a more "subtle viciousness" makes me think they're going to end up looking like the female embers compared to the male embers, or the female blacks compared to the male blacks. If you going to do dimorphism, both sprites should be equally awesome and it shouldn't look like one has been shortchanged. Examples of "dimorphism done right" include the Sunsongs, the Nebulas, the BBWs, the Sunrises/Sunsets, and a few other examples. The great thing about these breeds is that while there are different sprites for the males and females, there is no way that you could tell just by looking which sprite the spriter intended to be the male and which to be the female. They look like the same dragon with the same attitude, neither is more subtle or feminine compared to the other, and both genders are equally dynamic and interesting. I am sure the spriters aren't doing this on purpose but there is a great deal of "subconscious sexism" at play when you look at male sprites compared to female sprites. When you look at dragons that are on the completed list but aren't in the cave yet, the situation seems even worse. It's like, the sprites that are already in the cave are influencing many up-and-coming spriters to think that their females need to somehow be less active, less dynamic, less threatening, than the males. I'm just so tired of it.

...just a note here, have you ever looked at Nature? U:

 

Especially in birds, the male is brighter and more colorful than the female. Lions, lizards, insects, fish... there are a LOT of creatures that reflect this dimorphism. I am all for making the male fancy and the female more subtle, because that is simply nature.

 

Also, Hellfires are the exact opposite of what is shown above. The female could kick the male's tail. =P

[Lythiaren]

But Blazeh, nature has it the other way around sometimes too. An angry momma bear is probably the last thing a person wants to run into.

 

EDIT: Someone also asked about the flytrap tail. They don't eat with it, no, but it can be used to trap small prey (much like the flowers are used as bird snares) or as a last-ditch extra limb when struggling with prey.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Lythiaren

[Bloodyrose13]

But Blazeh, nature has it the other way around sometimes too. An angry momma bear is probably the last thing a person wants to run into.

I like your plan it is well thought out and phrased perfectly it covers everything that needs to be covered when it comes to improving a sprite. Plus you are the artist you should have say so on what goes on with the sprite.

 

 

As for nature physically males are usually brighter, bigger, flashier, and more intimidating this is because they are the ones fighting for territory, and for mates. These displays often gets them killed and targeted more than females, but so long as they have mated and past on their genes that doesn't matter. Females hardly fight for mates or for a future mates attention. But I do agree with you behavioral wise females especially mothers have to be very aggressive, and they have to be able to hold their own. I don't see how dimorphism cannot show that in females. I think dimorphism can work well in showing all the characteristics that are observed in nature.

[thiefofhearts]

No, the one in my avatar is an old version, the old 16-colour "final" version from way back when. The current iteration has green scutes as well, but I am considering giving them back the gold ones as it's part of what makes the dragon pop, and the minty plant is... kind of gross. :V

 

Regarding the request for a more active female, though, I'm hesitant to redo her again because this is a breed that is known to hunt using subtlety and camouflage.

 

I can, however, attempt a new version of the female that is a little more active than she currently is. The original idea for her had her climbing up out of the hole, snout snarling upward from under the leaves. It never happened because I was having trouble getting it down on paper the way I wanted, so I hid her under the plant with a sneaky look on her face instead. She is less epic than I wanted her to be, but she is deliciously evil nonetheless.

 

Which would people prefer? Clawing out with the snarlyface, or hiding with sneakyplotface? The former would naturally take longer to get the sprites to TJ because I'd have to go through the whole spriting process again, but if it's what more people want, then that's what I will do. Partly because I still think it would be awesome if I can pull that off without messing up her scutes.

 

By the way, the two will differ more in the plant than anything else. The lady has three yellow flowers while the male has two red. Their eyes will match their respective flowers, but that's where the obvious physical differences end.

i think you should keep the one you have :U

 

I'm more of a sneaky/rogue fan than an aggressive/fighter fan myself; this goes for any game, book, movie, etc. And I think with that sprite already done it would be a waste not to use it.

[Dolphinsong]

Also do remember people, most female reptiles are much larger and more violent than their male counterparts =)

[Lythiaren]

i think you should keep the one you have :U

 

I'm more of a sneaky/rogue fan than an aggressive/fighter fan myself; this goes for any game, book, movie, etc. And I think with that sprite already done it would be a waste not to use it.

The way I see it, if it's a sprite that we know most people won't like, it's already a waste. Hence asking. I'd rather scrap the one very few people have seen and attached if it means people would like a different one better. :3

Edited January 4, 2012 by Lythiaren

[Kila]

I like the sneakyplotface option c:

[thiefofhearts]

The way I see it, if it's a sprite that we know most people won't like, it's already a waste. Hence asking. :3

you could always make another poll? idk, it seems like the few people who don't like the "demure" females just don't like dimorphism in general, and would rather have one sprite. i just think they wouldn't really be happy with a new female sprite unless it somehow "out did" the male. TBH i don't really see where the females are less awesome/dynamic/more submissive than their male counterparts. it seems like that's their own brains assigning gender roles and features more than anything.

 

that's what I meant about the "waste" thing. it just seemed that those people wouldn't be happy with either version unless you took it away entirely.

 

BTW am I going crazy or what? I swear every time I come in this thread your avvie changes....

[Dolphinsong]

you could always make another poll? idk, it seems like the few people who don't like the "demure" females just don't like dimorphism in general, and would rather have one sprite. i just think they wouldn't really be happy with a new female sprite unless it somehow "out did" the male. TBH i don't really see where the females are less awesome/dynamic/more submissive than their male counterparts. it seems like that's their own brains assigning gender roles and features more than anything.

 

that's what I meant about the "waste" thing. it just seemed that those people wouldn't be happy with either version unless you took it away entirely.

 

BTW am I going crazy or what? I swear every time I come in this thread your avvie changes....

She's using a rotating avatar Changes every refresh

[Stromboli]

As long as the female's got some fierceness about her (even if it's a sneaky kind), I'm happy. With what I've come to understand about Vines in general, they're not exactly the friendliest breed in the Cave. Even if it's not overtly violent, as long as it's not all shy and sweet and demure, I'd say go for it.

[Lythiaren]

Musing here, but I wonder if I might be able to pull off both at the same time. Emerging with snarlyface... but sneakily. *ponders*

 

Of course, trying to do too many things at once usually results in everything imploding. :V

Edited January 4, 2012 by Lythiaren

[dragonsroc989]

im all yes for everything

 

when it comes to sneakyface over snarlyface.... id have to go with snarlyface lol just because the way you described it looks sounds so cool =D though if you cant get the snarlyface down right or a way youre happy with it, i dont mind a sneakyplotface

[rainbowsmile]

I think the description & hatchies should definitely be updated. I remember the first time I got a vine egg, and thought it was strange that it said it had grass and flowers, but there were none in the sprite. I never really noticed before, but after reading the part about the hatchlings not matching the adult it does bother me a little now :/

I've never felt strongly one way or another about the adult sprite. I'm not attached to where it would upset me if there was a change, but I hope TJ lets you post the updates first. I'd like to see the new ones before I say I want them updated.

[Saloiq]

I'm good with updated eggs, hatchies, and male vines. (:

 

I don't want new female vines. I mean, I want to see a pretty new sprite, but I don't want lineages to change. Many people do alternating vine projects (like this except the last one should be an alt), and what I like best about these is that the focus is all on the change from regular to alt. Having dimorphic sprites would break up the solid line of the exact same sprites, and I just don't want that. It would be even worse if the lineage box of one gender had dramatically more or less empty space than the other. (For example, the new Gold sprites' boxes.) Then again, I suppose it would make PB Vines more interesting. But now I'm going against what I want so I'll stop talking. ;

 

EDIT: Oh yes, and I'd prefer snarlyface if dimorphism is added. c:

 

EDIT2: QFE, since if we end up going with dimorphism I want to be prepared.

I'm not attached to where it would upset me if there was a change, but I hope TJ lets you post the updates first. I'd like to see the new ones before I say I want them updated.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Saloiq

[Lythiaren]

First post has been belatedly updated with some clarification, since some people seem to think that I plan to scrap the current sprite altogether. I assure you this is not the case! I love him the way he is too, I just think he needs a little refining. :3

Edited January 4, 2012 by Lythiaren

[stogucheme]

No, the one in my avatar is an old version, the old 16-colour "final" version from way back when. The current iteration has green scutes as well, but I am considering giving them back the gold ones as it's part of what makes the dragon pop, and the minty plant is... kind of gross. :V

 

Regarding the request for a more active female, though, I'm hesitant to redo her again because this is a breed that is known to hunt using subtlety and camouflage.

 

I can, however, attempt a new version of the female that is a little more active than she currently is. The original idea for her had her climbing up out of the hole, snout snarling upward from under the leaves. It never happened because I was having trouble getting it down on paper the way I wanted, so I hid her under the plant with a sneaky look on her face instead. She is less epic than I wanted her to be, but she is deliciously evil nonetheless.

 

Which would people prefer? Clawing out with the snarlyface, or hiding with sneakyplotface? The former would naturally take longer to get the sprites to TJ because I'd have to go through the whole spriting process again, but if it's what more people want, then that's what I will do. Partly because I still think it would be awesome if I can pull that off without messing up her scutes.

 

By the way, the two will differ more in the plant than anything else. The lady has three yellow flowers while the male has two red. Their eyes will match their respective flowers, but that's where the obvious physical differences end.

Ah, okay.

 

I would prefer the snarlyface version, but could live with the sneakyplotface version.

[Kanakha]

Ohhhh dimorphism @____@ *drools*

 

I think the female hiding and plotting like a murderess under her leaves is /very/ attractive for this breed. Do want. Do want nao plz. Also, huzzah hatchling updates! It's kind of always bugged me that the original Pink, Red, and Vine hatchling sprites are identical in design. New Vine hatchlings = much do want.

[Kizzikins]

Either version of the female sounds neat to me. I wish we could see the sneakyplotface version just to know, but oh well. I really like the idea of snarlyface, but I'm sure I'll like the sprites either way. There is something to be said for the cunning of a sneakyplotface, after all.

[r0botmind]

I'd love to see an update for the vines! I don't collect them since I'm not a fan of the sprite. I love dimporphism since I think it makes things more unique since it's observed in real life! Besides I like having different sprites to collect; all the more reason to have more females! I'd like to see more colors on the sprite and make it distinguishable from the plant.

 

I voted Yes!

[Zovesta]

I'll be perfectly honest: I hate that the female has to be "cunning" and the male is just brash and charges right out there. I hate it. In fact, when I heard that you were going to make that change, I was preparing to dump all of my females (except for one, but she already acts like a male, so). It just really bothers me that the females are always sly or shy. I don't even mean so much in physical differences, I mean in poses and personality.

 

It really, really bothers me, and while I will accept it if you make her sly like that, I will be disappointed.

[Lythiaren]

I respect your input, Zovesta. I initially didn't want to make her sneaky, but she turned out that way in the sprite I currently have. Is there a suggestion you would like to make? Would you prefer if she displayed the same level of outright aggression as the male?

 

Keeping the sprite out of sight for the moment affords an advantage in that I can change it according to people's preferences without having anyone go "But I liked it before!". ^^

Edited January 4, 2012 by Lythiaren