Improving the Vines

[HeatherMarie]

Did... we not say anything regarding this in the past two pages? The alt hatchlings will remain untouched so those who like the current incarnation can still get something very similar.

 

I guess I don't see the point in perpetuating the BP-type situation? :|a

Sorry Lyth, limited on computer usage lately so I didn't read all the other pages.

 

If that's the case, I'm totally on board with the changes.

[Lythiaren]

Oh good I was afraid I'd misinterpreted your question or something. x_X

 

I still wonder if TJ would be willing to convert your hatchlings to alts though if you'd like them to stay (mostly) the same.

[Lady_Gray]

Yes to everything else, but please please no dimorphism! In principle, I don't hate dimorphism, but I hate the way it is usually executed. The males usually look epic/badass/dangerous while the females end up looking more demure, or, at best, threatening in a more subtle way. If you're going to do dimorphism, make the female just as tough-looking and in-your-face vicious as the male. The way you describe the female having a more "subtle viciousness" makes me think they're going to end up looking like the female embers compared to the male embers, or the female blacks compared to the male blacks. If you going to do dimorphism, both sprites should be equally awesome and it shouldn't look like one has been shortchanged. Examples of "dimorphism done right" include the Sunsongs, the Nebulas, the BBWs, the Sunrises/Sunsets, and a few other examples. The great thing about these breeds is that while there are different sprites for the males and females, there is no way that you could tell just by looking which sprite the spriter intended to be the male and which to be the female. They look like the same dragon with the same attitude, neither is more subtle or feminine compared to the other, and both genders are equally dynamic and interesting. I am sure the spriters aren't doing this on purpose but there is a great deal of "subconscious sexism" at play when you look at male sprites compared to female sprites. When you look at dragons that are on the completed list but aren't in the cave yet, the situation seems even worse. It's like, the sprites that are already in the cave are influencing many up-and-coming spriters to think that their females need to somehow be less active, less dynamic, less threatening, than the males. I'm just so tired of it.

This this this. ^^^^

 

I support the dimorphism, but only if you make this lady look vicious and awesome. It's common in nature for the female of a species to be more aggressive. Please make the female vine look like the very last thing you'd ever want to see — because if you do, she's the very last thing you will see. You can totally make her that awesome.

[Sorrowgrave]

I support this, frankly it's your dragon, so pretty much your choice.

[Deus_Suetonius]

I don't know why you're even asking... You're one of our original, and most influential artists. You're work has been beautiful from the beginning, and as the years passed it just got better.

 

The hatchlings while they're nice in there own way, like you've pointed out, dont match the dragon in the slightest. Not to mention, that they use the same base as a few other breeds...

 

 

EDIT: re-read this and i didnt realize i forgot to say; I hope you decide to make the change

Edited January 15, 2012 by Deus_Suetonius

[Elena]

I never did see what the big fuss over dimorphism was about, even when people tried to explain it. In nature, many times the female is different from the male (including in ways that may make her weaker, stronger or, in this case, having more of a more subtle brand of vicious) and I think it brings more realism and diversity to the cave.

 

I'm totally looking forward to whatever changes you come up with, Lythiaren :3

Edited January 15, 2012 by Elena

[Syphoneira]

Lythiaren, whatever you do will be fabulous, but it's always going to be a shock for people to come on and discover that their sprites on their scrolls have changed - and that fact that your Vines are well-done and well-beloved by many as they are will obviously add to the situation.

 

Imperfections that may irritate the artist may not be at all obvious/bothersome to many players, so some people will not be happy with any change, and that's an issue going to occur in any crowd, because we all have different tastes and different levels of attachment to various sprites.

 

But you've done an excellent job of bringing in the portion of the general population that has noticed and read/participated in this thread, and that makes a HUGE psychological difference among this group, as regards dealing with this alteration.

 

We have been able to register our opinions, make suggestions and have discussion on this change, and it's very much appreciated.

 

(Speaking as one of those who thought the Vines were just dandy as they are, but who can also understand that you feel that they aren't truly your concept of the Vines at this point.)

 

But those who were unaware of this (I know I rarely stirred out of Site Discussion - and later Breeding - for probably years) may be shocked and unhappy, and about all we can do is offer sympathy...

[Anna Selka]

I fully support the changes you want to make, they make sense to me and your arguments stand to reason.

 

There will be no complaining from me in any case

 

[Lilac Inkdream]

I agree with the description change. The current discription just doesn't make sense.

The hatchling sprite update I agree with. The hatchlings don't look much different from the reds, which I do not like.

The adults... I'd like to see the proposed sprite before deciding. I like the current sprite, and I never had any trouble making out the head from the plant. Increased contrast I don't think I'll mind too much, but the proposed female sprite I would like to see before I decide.

[aquamarine__]

*flips table*

 

Changes just give me pain. PAIN.

 

But I agree with the description

Edited January 16, 2012 by aquamarine__

[Shalarean]

I'm excited about this! And I love that you're asking for opinions! So here's mine.

 

I *love* the dark coloring on the alts, though I don't like how the dragon is under-ground. I also like how the regular is coming up out of the dirt with all the "I'm gonna eat you!" attitude. And you're so right about the hatchling stuff.

 

I do like the first part of your egg description idea. "This egg is sitting in a patch of grass and small flowers even though there's no sun in the cave." -> "This egg was found in a patch of grass and small flowers." I think this is the best idea.

[Raun]

I honestly can't wait to see your changes, Lythiaren.

 

I was gifted my very first vine, so I want to see him or her get a makeover, though the old is pretty amazing.

 

I'm loving this breed!

[Lythiaren]

*shifts gears*

 

New notice on first post. What would you guys like to see in hatchlings? :3

[Renorei]

I don't think it's too much "sameness" for the hatchlings to look mean even if the adults are. If the vines are first and foremost a vicious breed, it makes sense that all the sprites would look vicious.

 

On the other hand, if you wanted to, you could make the hatchlings look sneaky as a sort of compromise in the event you end up making the female adult snarly. People who wanted a sneaky female might not get exactly what they wanted but at least the hatchlings could look sneaky.

[Zovesta]

I'd like the idea of angry little babies. Sounds cute. I can see them as being as nasty as the adults.

[Elena]

I can imagine the hatchlings being, in a way, more vicious than the adults, in the same kind of way that a baby snake can be more dangerous than an adult snake because they haven't yet learned how to conserve their venom... If that makes any sense.

But that's only how I'd imagine them. I'm obviously not their creator, so I'm sure they're actually quite different.

 

So, I would definitely like to see the hatchlings looking vicious and mean.

[Raun]

I'm okay with the hatchlings looking alert and vicious.

 

Your description makes me think of lion or tiger cubs. 'Cute', but still aggressive, fearless, and prone to get into trouble.

[Lady_Gray]

Oh, man, a mean little hatchling would be awesome. But like, "It would be adorable if it wasn't trying to kill me!" Maybe pudgy and clumsy-looking, but snapping its vines out like it's going to strangle you? Just a tiny ball of hyperactive evil....

 

If that's even possible in a 40x40 sprite. But still, that's what I'd love to see. [/two cents]

[Lilac Inkdream]

I think the hatchlings should be kind of cute but sneaky or snarly, kind of like what Lady Grey said.

[greenmann]

That's called the tyranny of the majority or mob rule, and it's inaccurate on all counts.  If 51% of the people voted to enslave 49% of the people, it would not be 'fair' just because more people wanted it, and in the US, the majority does not elect the President.

 

In a vote like this?  The majority ultimately has no say, it's just Lyth getting a feel for what the forum wants.  Up to her to listen, though the fact that she put the poll up in the first place gives the impression she probably will give the results consideration.

And to take this a step further... even if there WAS a functional democracy in this where spriters had to follow the majority rule, even then the ultimate decision on whether or not these changes are implemented fall to TJ and his staff alone. He is the one that makes the final decision on whether or not to do something like this. Even with all the hard work that Lyth has put into this, if TJ doesn't want to deal with it, regardless how much we all want it done (or not), it won't get done. Online games like this are NOT democratic. Some are more responsive to user input than others, but ultimately the people who own and code the games have all the cards. Period.

 

For me, I can't in conscience vote on something like this without seeing the new sprites in question. With the golds, I wasn't overly fond of the old ones, but I find the new ones glaring and just odd. I would have been all for a change in the sprites of the gold dragons if they were done in such a way as to udpate what the old dragons looked like, but instead they were completely changed. I don't like the new ones any better than the old ones.

 

It seems like you are being careful to not do that here, and I love that the alts will in essence preserve the old familiar hatchlings (which I must say are one of my least favorite hatchlings, even though I love the adults, both the regular ones and the alts). I don't get the need for changing the eggs, and want to see what you are talking about with the reshading of the adults, but honestly as long as the changes are minor I don't have a problem with it. New hatchlings and a female sprite would be awesome though, I would love to see what you describing for those.

 

I will say though, that I don't see why females would be more demure in a "vicious" dragon. I doubt anyone would describe a female crock as demure, or a hawk or eagle for that matter. I can't think of a single species that hunts any differently depending on if they are male or female. Top predators would be just that, vicious top predators. As classic ambush predators, I don't think demure really fits anyway.

 

Oh, and the dirt always made sense to me. These are dragons that burrow. Their vines, I assume, are not woody but more like muscular tentacles that LOOK like vines. As such, they would be able to withstand quite a bit of earth movement, and maybe even help the dragon burrow in. Aside from that, there are lots of examples of animals creating tunnel traps to patiently wait for dinner to show up at their door. I don't think the dirt is at all out of place for the description.

 

Snarly hatchlings? Ok, I guess, as long as the vines are clearly present, lol.

[Lythiaren]

The plant is indeed an actual plant. It draws nutrients from the dragon and the sun, while the dragon draws some of the photosynthesized energy back into itself. It starts off symbiotic, but eventually the dragon takes over by growing nerves up there and using its telekinesis to manipulate the plant. The tradeoff in this is of course that while the dragon can now feel through the plant, it can now also feel pain there, even though it doesn't bleed. :3

 

The vine that attacked people in the haunted house is either dead or doomed to starve to death in horrible pain, depending if people want to say they stabbed it in the face or maimed it by slicing the vines.

[blah]

When I think of vine babies, I think "Draco Malfoy". Make of that what you will

 

No seriously, if the pose is different and just the expression is the same, I don't think it's too much sameness.

[Lythiaren]

I actually don't know what that could possibly mean. All I know is that's a Harry Potter character. I never actually read HP. :c

[Dolphinsong]

Malfoy is a sceaming bully who wants nothing more than to show up Harry

[blah]

Malfoy is a sceaming bully who wants nothing more than to show up Harry

That sums it up nicely, thank you