Death Penalty

[Silverwingwyvren]

My friend lives in Texas, and was made to watch, his father was executed and later proven innocent. He's arabic and his dad was killed here in the US not in iraq.

 

You can not justify killing another person even if they did kill some one, wanting the criminal dead is revenge theres no beating around the bush its revenge thats all it is just because you want to get back at them.

[Sir Barton]

For me it's not revenge since I don't know the criminal nor the victim. To me capital punishment is about taking at least one violent individual out of the gene pool and making it impossible for that individual to murder anyone I know. It's protection, not revenge.

 

Texas:

    Sentence is determined by the jury.

    Execution dates are set by the trial court judge.

    Up to five witnesses are allowed on behalf of the victim.

    Citizen witnesses are not allowed.

    Executions are scheduled for 6 pm at the "Walls" Unit of the TDCJ in downtown Huntsville.

    Execution is by lethal injection.

    Clemency or commutation is a decision by both the parole board and the governor.

 

I see nothing that states the condemned family must be witness. Your friend is not telling you the truth. Family is allowed but not required.

 

Of the 38 states that have capital punishment, 37 require law enforcement and media officials to witness the executions. At least 16 states have a requirement that civilians with little or no connection to the crime also be present when convicted criminals are put to death.

 

Again, nothing about family of the accused being required to attend. They may be there as a show of support so their loved one doesn't die "alone" unlike the victim of the crime but they don't have to be there.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Sir Barton

[The Evil Doer]

Yes, if I were the relative of the murderer, it would still be worse for me to have my relative killed, possibly with their death publicized, than for me to know they were in prison.  I am innocent.  If my brother kills someone, I would still not want to suffer the execution of my brother, in addition to already suffering from knowing he's committed that crime, and him being locked away for life.  (I'm not speaking very far from personal experience, on this one.)

 

1. Well, thats just you, you cant possibly know how would others feel in that situation and all you can do is guess how you would feel unless you actually had a relative executed.

2. Maybe you wouldnt but why are you more important than the actual people who lost a family member to your brother's actions ?

 

I honestly see no reason to feel *less* empathy for the criminal's family than for the victim's.  They are probably quite unrelated to the crime, and are suffering the loss of someone they knew, or *thought* they knew, and something like a relative committing a murder sends deep ripples through the entire family, all of whom are (in the vast majority of cases) just as innocent as the victim's family.

 

The difference is, criminal's family lost someone who made a choice to kill. Victim's family lost someone for whom the choice was made, notice the difference ? Criminal made his choice, victim didnt, criminal's family suffers because of his (criminal's) actions, victim's family suffers also because of his (criminal's) actions, hence they deserve more empathy.

 

And no, we don't need to allow the killer to mail the victim's family!  Keeping him alive doesn't mean permitting him unrestrained access to things like mail or telephones.  Killers don't generally teach others to kill as they did, since it takes a certain initial mindset to become a killer to begin with, and they usually had a specific target in mind; they aren't just encouraging others to kill people at random.

 

Killers, do kill in prison as well.

Not allowing a letter or a message to be sent from prison into the world is a very naive way of thinking, Hits get ordered from within prison cells, gangs get run from within prison cells, drugs and many other things, all of which can be prevented with.... well, death

 

"Collateral damage" is still a concept of necessity.  If we are capable of imprisoning people for life, there is no need to *risk* collateral damage.  Why risk the taking of innocent lives if you don't *have* to?

 

Money, closure, further crimes....

 

Making it a speedy process wouldn't make it less expensive.

 

Of course it would.

 

No, I don't think the lack of deterrent factor is related to its rarity.  Criminals still know that, even without the death penalty in the picture, they're risking 20 years in prison, without access to the outside world, with a high possibility of being raped, and they continue to commit crimes.  And in situations when an execution is publicized (happened once when I was in high school, for instance), studies haven't shown any significant reactions in those areas, even in direct response while the memory is "fresh in their minds."  For people who are messed-up in the head, or who are addicted to something, almost nothing works as a deterrent unless it is literally an *immediate* consequence. 

 

Happened once in hs and criminals know they might face prison ?

Most of them grew up in a system and to show one execution on tv is far from making it a well known fact of life.

Show one drunk driver dying documentary in school and see whether it will change drinking habits, in order for things to work properly it needs to be done on a large scale, everybody must have full awareness.

 

What countries?  Was it a change from previous laws?  What other sentences existed?  Did the crime rates remain down?  It would be really interesting to see how this worked, and assess why the reactions are different in the U.S.

 

In south Asia there is a harsh punishment on drug related offenses, including death penalty....

They were pretty much the center of drug trafficking, now there still are drugs of course, however it went down rapidly

 

No.  Revenge can be societal, cultural.  Whenever a criminal is executed, a criminal who could *easily* be kept locked in a cell for life, there's no motive of necessity.  The motive is just to make everyone else feel better because those people *want* the criminal dead.  That, to me, seems like revenge.

 

I think its called justice instead of revenge, and the motive is obvious, we will not tolerate certain offenses, justice will be swift and the same for all, citizens will feel safe... Thats how I see it.

Edited December 2, 2011 by The Evil Doer

[The Evil Doer]

My friend lives in Texas, and was made to watch, his father was executed and later proven innocent. He's arabic and his dad was killed here in the US not in iraq.

 

You can not justify killing another person even if they did kill some one, wanting the criminal dead is revenge theres no beating around the bush its revenge thats all it is just because you want to get back at them.

Maybe your friend didnt understand his rights, maybe his mom made him watch, maybe he wasnt frank with you BUT nobody makes family members watch the execution in Texas or any other state within the USA.

Family members must be informed, whether they choose to be there is only their choice and in some cases they arent even allowed to be there.

 

Feel free to research the subject.

 

I dont want to get back at them, I just dont believe they deserve to breathe the same air as I do, its pretty simple in my eyes if you have chosen to do some horrid crime, the moment you have made that choice you have stopped being a human in my eyes, monsters dont deserve to live, they certainly didnt give that privilage to their victims, actions are what defines us as people, hence they get what they deserve.. Justice not revenge

Edited December 2, 2011 by The Evil Doer

[Silverwingwyvren]

Ok what about people who fought in wars, who killed other people, they didn't just kill the attackers they killed civilans even no Nato keeps forking up and hitting the wrong targets, wheres their justice? You can't tell the family member oh I'm sorry we missed and hit them.... wtf? With all the tech in the world you missed?

 

They say fight for your country our freedom is in danger! wtf nothings happened over here! Dude there has not been one war fought on US soil since the civil war! What freedom is in danger?!?!

 

To face facts the guys who do the executions such as firing squad and hanging and lethal injections are blood guilt protection or not they killed someone, that persons dead and their blood is on their hands.

 

My friends mom died of cancer and he has no ther family in the US so he was basically made an orphan because they didn't look at all the evidence, his dad died for another man who they haven't found. And his father was also accused of terrorism which is a big racial problem for arab americans now a days so you know most people will believe that and the guy was in the military and lost a friend in iraq and I guess that was his revenge.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Silverwingwyvren

[Sir Barton]

How does war fit in with capital punishment? Two different things as far as I can tell. Collateral damage in war is most certainly to be expected. Terrorist attacks have happen on our soil and that is what we are trying to keep out of here. I, for one, don't want to have to fight on my own soil. Better to keep the battles a world away.

 

Executors have the blood of the guilty on their hands unlike the criminal who soils his hands with the blood of the innocent. It's a dirty job but I appreciate the people who step up to the plate and do it to keep my family and myself a little safer.

 

Edited December 2, 2011 by Sir Barton

[The Evil Doer]

Ok what about people who fought in wars, who killed other people, they didn't just kill the attackers they killed civilans even no Nato keeps forking up and hitting the wrong targets, wheres their justice? You can't tell the family member oh I'm sorry we missed and hit them.... wtf? With all the tech in the world you missed?

 

They say fight for your country our freedom is in danger! wtf nothings happened over here! Dude there has not been one war fought on US soil since the civil war! What freedom is in danger?!?!

 

To face facts the guys who do the executions such as firing squad and hanging and lethal injections are blood guilt protection or not they killed someone, that persons dead and their blood is on their hands.

How is fighting in a war the same thing as being a serial killer for example ? Missing a target is suddenly the same thing as kidnapping a girl, raping and torturing her ? If you do that as a soldier you will be punished for it as well.

 

The fact that you are against wars has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

Yeah, their blood is on their hands however some people are willing to get their hands dirty to keep you and your family safe.

[digipup]

Neutral.

I'd be more supportive if the legal systems were more foolproof. >.>'

 

Frankly though, I'd man up and deal if a relative of mine, be it my mother, father, sister, or my beloved brother-in-law, committed a horrible crime and was given the death penalty for it. You commit a crime, you're taking the chance of being caught, and it's your own fault. Instead of hating the government for issuing the penalty, I'd be pressing my face to the glass and asking the convicted person, "Why?"

Yes, I'll miss the person, and yes, it'll be different without him or her, but I don't need other people to be happy.

 

Depending on the crime, I may be even vaguely relieved. I know, go ahead and baw at me for being heartless, but I'd honestly be very, very uncomfortable to know that the government didn't give what is deemed the 'proper' punishment to a murderer.

 

It's entirely different when it comes to prisoners of war, however. >/

Edited December 2, 2011 by digipup

[Nine]

Oh yes, I support the death penalty. I wish they did executioners more often, fewer reductions to life sentences, and if I had my way... we'd be using a hangman's noose again. A lot cheaper.

 

My opinions on this are extremely strong. I've seen people who defy any such description of 'humanity', people who have done things so heinous no crime novelist could even think of such a plot, people who make you lock your doors at night, keep you from walking alone in the dark, tell your kids to never get in a stranger's car. People who have no right to live off of tax payers money, no right to add to the overcrowding of prisons, no right to live as far as I'm concerned.

 

I'm jaded from what I've seen, but I've always agreed with the death penalty. Not for revenge, but because some people do not deserve to exist on this earth anymore no less eating up money better spent elsewhere. I do not care about their feelings, moral rights as a human being-- just as much as they don't care about mine. Does that make me better than them? Maybe not, but I've long ago learned that I cannot blame myself or humanize evil for nothing good comes of it. Sympathies for the family sure (notable exceptions), and for those who had to witness crime scenes, find bodies, put together a case, fight for their case in a court of law, and for anyone else who was affected psychologically and emotionally by another's actions. I can understand how those who have never seen, experienced, or are misinformed by the media may think the Death Penalty is some horrible act of evil, and that's fine. But if they try to get it outlawed, then I have a problem (already restricted enough as is).

 

Innocent people are not regularly executed, by the way. The media loves to stir up controversies about how innocents are unlawfully convicted and cites the odd example, but I can assure you. It does not happen often*, at least not anymore.

 

*At least not in North America and Europe, don't know about Australia, Asia, and such.

 

Time to go watch hilarious animal videos on Youtube to cheer myself up!

[Silverwingwyvren]

You can get your hands dirty doing something else, like saving a life instead of taking it away. Mankind is trying to prolong peoples lives and get rid of death, thats something far from mans ability so basically all man knows how to do is kill. There is no forgive and forget, its kill them for killing him or her.

 

Putting some one to death is not right, putting them in away will there fore make them think on their actions. Putting the criminal to death only gives relief to one family, only one family suposedly benefits from the criminals death. We might as well just say the criminal has no family they don't exist if only one family benefits, and the family of the victim shuns the family of the killer in most cases they don't really care. I just can't see how only one side gets sympath while the other is dammed basically.

 

 

War fits it because half the time they are killing people who aren't in the war at all, their just walking.

[PlutoIsHades]

I believe it depends on the person and circumstances. For example, I can understand why they wanted to kill, say, Osama bin Laden. However, when it comes to somebody who just killed someone else, two wrongs don't make a right.

[Sir Barton]

Murder is not a forgive and forget action. "Oh so you slaughtered that teenage girl after repeatedly raping her. Well, you will know not to do that next time, right?"

NO! Just no. Violent crime is not something that should be tolerated. To do so is ludicrous.

 

No one is saying that the criminal's family isn't effected. I'm sure they are but like digipup, I have to believe that if a member of my family committed murder I would be angry at them. They are the ones who put me in the situation where I have deal with their actions and it's outcome. While I would be saddened at their death I wouldn't want them walking the street and possibly killing someone else. I wouldn't want them locked up for the rest of their lives. To me that is cruel. I would rather them be put to death as it is better for all concerned.

 

I also beg to differ. Putting a criminal to death doesn't just give relief to one family. It gives relief to people in general because there is one less danger to have to worry about.

[Nine]

Putting some one to death is not right, putting them in away will there fore make them think on their actions.

I've seen gang members turn their lives around, drug addicts, those convicted of murder because they hit a kid while drunk driving and fled, but this is not Kindergarten. Some people are just plain evil, some people just want to see the world burn, and others want to be responsible for burning it. Those who want to atone and make better of their lives are usually not the ones sitting on DR. They will not sit there and think of their actions, suddenly transforming into a innocent human being. Quite often, if you let them out they will go right back to doing what they do best, killing, mutilating, terrorizing. Whether you are one who believes it's nature, nurture, or both-- some people are just hardwired to be murderers. Nothing short of a lobotomy could change that (they totally used to do that too).

Edited December 2, 2011 by Nine

[The Evil Doer]

You can get your hands dirty doing something else, like saving a life instead of taking it away. Mankind is trying to prolong peoples lives and get rid of death, thats something far from mans ability so basically all man knows how to do is kill. There is no forgive and forget, its kill them for killing him or her.

 

Putting some one to death is not right, putting them in away will there fore make them think on their actions. Putting the criminal to death only gives relief to one family, only one family suposedly benefits from the criminals death. We might as well just say the criminal has no family they don't exist if only one family benefits, and the family of the victim shuns the family of the killer in most cases they don't really care. I just can't see how only one side gets sympath while the other is dammed basically.

 

 

War fits it because half the time they are killing people who aren't in the war at all, their just walking.

Forgive and forget ? If somebody bites you, either bite back or die, anything else is just not acceptable.

 

Think of their actions ? You mean like they thought of their actions when they decided to torture someone and enjoy doing so ? Wonder what does the victim think of their actions, oh wait the victim was deprived of such opportunity...

 

War doesnt fit at all, you have no idea what war is like !!! Its not like soldiers take their guns out, walk the streets and just shoot civilians for the fun of it, thats what killers do.

 

Wait.. did someone just say "Time to go watch animal cruelty videos on Youtube to cheer myself up!"

Edited December 2, 2011 by The Evil Doer

[Nine]

Wait.. did someone just say "Time to go watch animal cruelty videos on Youtube to cheer myself up!" 

...What. Where did you get that?

[spyro76]

Ok what about people who fought in wars, who killed other people, they didn't just kill the attackers they killed civilans even no Nato keeps forking up and hitting the wrong targets, wheres their justice? You can't tell the family member oh I'm sorry we missed and hit them.... wtf? With all the tech in the world you missed?

 

They say fight for your country our freedom is in danger! wtf nothings happened over here! Dude there has not been one war fought on US soil since the civil war! What freedom is in danger?!?!

First: 9/11/2001

Second: Oklahoma City Bombing

(image is from the Oklahoma City bombing.

 

Third: Most civilized (including NATO and UN) forces are required to have a reason for firing. They don't just go around shooting people. Read Sniper One then tell me that they go off trying to kill civilians. They don't shoot until there is a threat and only the threat is targeted.

 

Fourth: Tech. Yes we can put a missile through your front window, within a few centimeters of error, but remember who is behind the bomb. There is a person who has to do the calculations, and (if in live warfare) it's live calculations. If something is off then it's not going to be accurate. Not everything is done with computers, because at the very least someone has to designate the target. Miscommunication can cause a lot of deadly and irreversible problems.

 

Additionally, equipment does fail sometimes.

 

The reason that there hasn't been action in the United States since the Civil War is arguably that we don't wait for the fight to come to us.

 

And the finishing argument: My dad once made an observation to my grandfather. This observation was that the US tends to interfere with a lot of foreign stuff, we're always getting into a fight, especially with the dictators of the day (whether or not we're actually supporting them). My grandfather justified war simply by saying that he wished that we had interfered, or anyone had when Hitler was in power. Hitler caused the death of millions, would he not deserve the death penalty had he survived? Certainly if he was not executed people would certainly make attempts on his life for the remainder of his days. When old Nazis used to pop up from time to time there were attempts on some of their lives, simply because they were associated with one of the most evil men of all time.

 

 

Back on topic:

Capital punishment may be "immoral" but why? The very earliest codes of law were "eye for an eye" style (Hammurabi's Code). There is a moral line that some people choose not to cross and because of that there will never be an answer to this discussion. There will never be a "winner." There's too much gray.

 

Personally I'm for the death penalty and not for just murder. Selling State secrets to those who would use it to harm the citizens of the United States, or any nation deserve to have their freedom taken away. Imprisoning these people can only work for so long, because it puts many burdens on the citizens of the nation imprisoning the convicts. It costs money, and in prison you don't just sit there and rot anymore. There are things to do. Solitary cells are being called inhumane because humans simply crave to be near others of their kind. Besides money it requires space and it devalues the surrounding areas for regular housing. Who wants to live a block away from a prison full of serial killers and other high risk people?

 

The next point is for the people who think every life is worth the same, no matter what the species or situation. I know a lot of people who are okay with animals being put down for various reasons, but never humans. A dog bites a human? Could be put down. A dog is suffering and in pain with no hope of recovery, or a very small one? Put it down. We don't put down humans who are terminal or in severe pain. In fact it's illegal for doctors to help someone hurt themselves in any way. We, as humans, have double standards, we all have lines we won't cross.

 

Then it comes down to majority, as it always does. If a majority doesn't agree with a law they can simply change it. If a minority doesn't like a law they can protest to gain support or move away, but they do not have the right to overrule the majority, because that's no longer fair, and it's no longer democracy. It's a usurpation of power.

 

I know plenty of people who are against the death penalty, but the majority has spoken in those States that allow it. Want to change it? Go propose a law and earn it support, debating about it here or complaining about it here will never help, because the majority of DC players probably are not within their rights to vote on the matter, because of where they live or how old they are.

 

The basis of government is security and freedom. The more freedom you have the less security you have. Want the death penalty eliminated? Then the criminals responsible for those crimes have the potential to hurt you as well.

[Sir Barton]

Wait. Silverwingwyvren, I have a question. When was your friend's father executed? You say that he was charged with being a terrorist along with whatever crime he was wrongly found guilty of because he is Arab, right? How long was he on death row? Because something about this entire story just isn't sitting right. From what I can tell no one of Arab decent has been put to death in Texas in recent history.

[Silverwingwyvren]

If you can't forgive someone thats sad, no matter how big or small. Look if god didn't forgive and was like people are now, we would have never existed period after the first person was murdered that would be it mankind would never exist what so ever. If no one on this world ever forgave a person for a crime big or small things would be hell and thats nothing further from the truth.

 

No your right, they don't but what do you expect people to think when a tank is rolling down their street or when their family member is shot because he was misidenified. I'm glad I don't know what war is like I wouldn't fight in any war at all I'd rather go to jail and spend the rest of my life there than fight for this country or any country at that. And kill some one I don't know thats dumb, "Oh I don't know you but I'm gonna kill anyway..." ????????

 

 

Third: Most civilized (including NATO and UN) forces are required to have a reason for firing. They don't just go around shooting people. Read Sniper One then tell me that they go off trying to kill civilians. They don't shoot until there is a threat and only the threat is targeted.

 

Fourth: Tech. Yes we can put a missile through your front window, within a few centimeters of error, but remember who is behind the bomb. There is a person who has to do the calculations, and (if in live warfare) it's live calculations. If something is off then it's not going to be accurate. Not everything is done with computers, because at the very least someone has to designate the target. Miscommunication can cause a lot of deadly and irreversible problems.

 

Additionally, equipment does fail sometimes.

 

Then why do they keep missing, they last time they hit the ally. No amount of sorry's will bring the dead person back.

 

 

 

His dad was put to death during the war roughly seven years ago when the tention was high. He was executed then in two weeks of his last trial, he was on death row for four months.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Silverwingwyvren

[The Evil Doer]

If you can't forgive someone thats sad, no matter how big or small. Look if god didn't forgive and was like people are now, we would have never existed period after the first person was murdered that would be it mankind would never exist what so ever. If no one on this world ever forgave a person for a crime big or small things would be hell and thats nothing further from the truth.

 

No your right, they don't but what do you expect people to think when a tank is rolling down their street or when their family member is shot because he was misidenified. I'm glad I don't know what war is like I wouldn't fight in any war at all I'd rather go to jail and spend the rest of my life there than fight for this country or any country at that. And kill some one I don't know thats dumb, "Oh I don't know you but I'm gonna kill anyway..." ????????

 

 

 

 

Then why do they keep missing, they last time they hit the ally. No amount of sorry's will bring the dead person back.

1. God is a very vengeful God

2. Of course you wouldnt fight in wars, you are allowed to think the way you do only because other brave men fought in wars to give you that freedom.

[Sir Barton]

And he was executed in Texas?

[Silverwingwyvren]

Yeah he was, he didn't get to have has dad see him graduate high school, or any parent moments what so ever because of that mistake.

 

I'm glad they believe their brave, killing someone takes bravery. I mean in world war two half the german army didn't know why the heck they were fighting in the war in the first place, they were just following what hitler said, they didn't even know the jews were being murdered the way they were.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Silverwingwyvren

[philpot123]

Dude I'm Jehovah's Witness -snip-

Genesis 9:6: "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

 

 

Exodus 21:12 "He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death."

 

 

Revelation 13:10 "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

 

 

Romans 13:1-4: "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

 

"the sword" is the power of the government to execute for Biblical capital crimes. If you're Jehovah's Witness, do you not hold the Bible as truth?

 

 

 

 

I'm for the death penalty. It doesn't make sense to me that animal abusers and pot growers in my area have been given more time than rapists and murderers. If you know that IF YOU KILL SOMEONE YOU DIE... isn't that a pretty darn effective deterrent?

 

 

 

 

[The Evil Doer]

Yeah he was, he didn't get to have has dad see him graduate high school, or any parent moments what so ever because of that mistake.

 

I'm glad they believe their brave, killing someone takes bravery. I mean in world war two half the german army didn't know why the heck they were fighting in the war in the first place, they were just following what hitler said, they didn't even know the jews were being murdered the way they were.

Thats pretty cool, I mean the fact that you know what German troops knew or didnt know, furthermore that you so boldly speak against people who gave their lives in WWII to give you a chance to enjoy all the freedoms you have.

If god forbids something happens, we all know where you will be, right behind all of those who are willing to get their hands dirty to do just that, protect you.. Indeed you are right, a dumb bunch

[Silverwingwyvren]

Deuteronomy 32:35 Vengeance is mine, and retribution.

At the appointed time their foot will move unsteadily,

For the day of their disaster is near,

And the events in readiness for them do make haste.

 

2 Thessalonians 1:8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.

 

 

Nahum 1:2 Jehovah is a God exacting exclusive devotion and taking vengeance; Jehovah is taking vengeance and is disposed to rage. Jehovah is taking vengeance against his adversaries, and he is resentful toward his enemies.

 

 

[AppleCakes]

Please do not go that far. Some german soldiers were drafted, yes, but many of them joined willingly. Easy for you to say. But when you've grown up hearing these stories of the halocaust, and knowing six million people like you, including kids were murdered, and knowing how much they suffered before they died. You feel no sympathy for any German soldier, drafted or not. So do not bring that into the argument.

 

I am for it. Just like you have a friend with an innocent excecuted father, I have a friend with an innocent mother who was murdered. Your friend at least had time with his dad growing up. My friend lost her mother at 5. Can you imagine having to tell a kindergartener that she will never be with her mother again, at least on earth? The person who did it has no right to live. Say I'm narrow minded, but then you would be a hypocrit.

Edited December 2, 2011 by AppleCakes