Atrocious writing

[philpot123]

I have a friend on facebook who has written a... book. It's pretty short for a book, but I'll call it such for now. It's a pretty generic teen romance - meets a boy, someone dies, depression, boy love, etc etc etc. That's kinda meh just by itself. But beyond that, the writing is atrocious. A lot of wordiness, redundancy, and just all around horrid writing. I'll give a small portion of an example, with no names or specifics.

 

"she must always look exquisite every day. And every day, Amelia always looked stunning."

 

Er... does that hurt anyone else to read? Must, always, exquisite, every day, every day, always, stunning. It's just... ew.

 

 

On top of this, she's requesting everyone who sees it to comment on it and rate it, on a 5 star scale. The best I could bring myself to rate it was a 2, "needs work."

 

All of the comments on it are generic "OHEMGEEZZZZEZ this is amazing, best story ever, I does loves sooooo mucchhhhh..." etc etc etc. I feel that these comments do nothing but reinforce sloppy writing and lead to more of it. I want to comment and lay out points, but I don't want to be mean about it... especially since I actually know this girl

 

So my question is. How does one go about telling someone that their "good" writing needs heavy work without sounding like a pretentious conceited elitist? I don't claim to be a good writer, but this is... very obviously not good. Any help would be great

[DragonNighthowler]

It is redundant, and it hurts. Sometimes, redundancy may work as an element. VERY controlled element and as long as it is not overdone. Which pretty much means that if you do it more than once in the whole book, you're overdoing it.

Anyways.

 

I do not claim to be a god writer either. Actually, I've said it before, my books are not good. They are soft cover, entertaining novella and nothing else. They're not meant to be brilliant. They are not meant to make the Nobel Prize. They are not meant to make peple think, or to represent that dark side of reality or anything like that.

They are meant to entertain. I write to step away from reality, have a nice time and nothing else, and thus my readers shall get that same experience.

 

However, even if the theme is not supposed to be brilliant, I do put good care on characterization, I plan my plots carefully and try to write as well as I can.

I look upon Jim Butcher as one of my models to follow.

 

As for criticism, I am lucky to have a couple of friends reading them and being pretty harsh on me. If I was younger I might have gone down crying, but right now I consider myself mature enough to hold the beating with a critical perspective. They have helped me a BUNCH, specially seeing things I hadn't realized before.

Although it is true I'm a very hardcore reviewer as well, and I have personally told them to be harsh when I noticed they were trying to go soft for fear of hurting my feelings.

 

I remember this one character in a discarded work, he was a cry baby. My friend started; "Meh, he's not bad, but this other character..."

I told her; "Don't go all soft on me. Tell me what you think"

She then responded; "All right, I don't give a s.... about him. I want him dead, I can't care for a hero all he does is cry around the corners!"

Then I saw a Futurama episode that said exactly the same thing and I laughed so hard.

It helped me. A lot, really, I changed that character completely and it worked.

 

Anyways, what I meant to say with this bunch of pointless dribble is that, you know your friend. You know how she's going to take hard criticism, so in the end, it is your choice.

Praises will not help her. At all. But some people have a softer skin than others and can't whithstand (is this written correctly? I think not.) the stress of being critiziced.

 

Note, criticism is not flaming. Being hard does not mean being cruel.

[Ruins]

I want to be a good author like my hero Sir Terry Pratchett, and I'm very slowly getting there. My problem is I have too many ideas and I never finish what I start; I often have good starts, good endings and some stuff in the middle, but it's getting everyone together and heading in the right direction that kills me. Making my characters form a team is like herding cats- I can never keep them on course.

[DragonNighthowler]

I want to be a good author like my hero Sir Terry Pratchett, and I'm very slowly getting there. My problem is I have too many ideas and I never finish what I start; I often have good starts, good endings and some stuff in the middle, but it's getting everyone together and heading in the right direction that kills me. Making my characters form a team is like herding cats- I can never keep them on course.

LOL, been there.

 

When I have very different characters, it just won't work. It's like putting legal good paladine in a room along with an evil chaotic drow assassin. They're bound to start killing each other the moment you look away.

 

Also, I find myself writing too much. Talking about waaaay too much. After the last edit, I lost a good 80 pages of pure dribble. 80 f.... pages!

[Gsea]

Yes, phil, that is pretty redundant and painful, me being the grammar freak and avid reader that I am. The one thing that bothers me the most is, as you said, the comments being something along the lines of "OH MY GAWSH THAT IS SOOO GOOD!" because people really don't know anything about good books these days- at least, not people my/your age

 

 

I tend to give constructive criticism by first pointing out the obvious- grammar and whatnot, and then giving them a few examples of, say, run-on sentences or improper punctuation. Then I focus on the other blatant problems, one of which would be redundancy in this case.

 

 

The important thing is to give helpful criticism, not to say "This is absolutely awful and you really need to work on it, because it's the worst thing I have ever read!" because unless you are sure the person won't be offended, this might be, well, harsh. Probably too harsh for an inexperienced writer, lol. Criticism is not the same as flaming and insulting, but some people seem to see it as this, so just...be careful with your wording if you're trying to help her (is it a her?) because an aspiring writer wants to learn and improve, not be put down.

 

 

At least she is asking for comments and rates, which means that she wants to know how she's doing, and may even want criticism.

[PlutoIsHades]

If you have the time, go through it line by line with her. Show her what you think can be edited out, but make sure she has some say in it.

[soupnazi]

When faced with a bad story that has lots of positive comments, you need to tread very carefully to be listened to.

 

First off, the critique needs to be very logic-based and full of examples, as well as ways to make things better. If you make a well-founded argument against the quality, and also suggest how to improve, the writer will likely be more receptive to your help.

 

Second, you need to be very calm and kind about it; make sure to highlight good parts as well, and say what works and how it could be even better. Make sure to keep your wording VERY careful and positive--I can speak from experience that it's really easy to accidentally say something very rude.

 

Third, I can't think of a third.

[philpot123]

This is what I ended up writing for a critique/comment. The comment hasn't showed up on the page yet, so I'm assuming it's subject to approval. Which means that it may never show up and she might read the first couple lines and ignore it

 

 

In the interest of complete honesty and edification, I will not sugarcoat my feelings. This in no way reflects my feelings about you as a person or a writer, simply my comments on this particular piece.

 

I will say I appreciate your good spelling and competent use of grammar. That shows that you are actually taking time with your writing, unlike other sloppy

writing that pops up.

 

Now for the constructive criticism…

 

On a structure note, there are many small typos throughout that should be addressed. A thorough and slow re-reading would easily correct most of these errors.

 

There could be more character development. The story begins with a very generic description of those who will play the main roles in our minds. An in depth development beyond surface things (perfect mother, bratty sister, loving father) would flesh the story out and help the reader connect more with it.

 

For your major/minor characters, I would suggest this helpful test. http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm

It’s a good (but not foolproof) indicator of whether or not your character is overly perfect, or sometimes disgustingly so. Your main character’s friends are all… well, perfect. While this may seem good sometimes in theory, in the context of quality literature it becomes a flaw. Having her inserted in a group of friends that are all perfect in every way implies that she is as well, at least in the superficial qualities listed (looks, grades). Her house, her life, her family at the beginning are all rather… perfect. I realize that’s part of the intention of the story, but combined with the “reaching lowest of lows”… it makes it a little less believable.

 

In regards to style, your writing sometimes seems overly wordy or redundant. For example, “she must always look exquisite every day. And every day, Amelia always looked stunning.”

Always, every day, every day, always.

Exquisite, stunning.

Different ways of saying the same thing are great when scattered throughout a piece, but when they are so close together, it becomes redundant.

 

You did a great job conveying emotion in chapter 3. That’s a very stirring, sickening moment and you did a good job of portraying it in an emotional but not graphic way. At the same time, the moment seems short and hurried. The bulk of the chapter is spent on the aftermath, when it seems it could be better spent on the intensity and emotion of the moment leading up to her death. From personal experience, I know that watching the death of someone you love is not a hurried instant. The moments seem to last forever, everything seems amplified and senses are going into overdrive. Sights, sounds, smells, they all take precedence over all else. The aftermath would be a blur, after the adrenaline crash and inevitable grief and depression sets in.

 

The rest of the story is similar. The mugging scene seems a bit unbelievable, especially the fact that three men would run away from an older woman and a teenage boy. Taking her in like a stray animal and not contacting anyone seems similarly unbelievable.

 

Another positive note, you are very good at description. It brings vivid imagery to mind that makes the story more realistic. If you can, try to work on developing that natural skill more so that it doesn’t come across as wordiness but as clear, concise description.

 

With some revision and fleshing out, I think this could be a great story.

 

 

 

 

I tried to think of as many good things as I could say about it what I don't get... it's been up for 10ish days on this website. Users can vote once every 24 hours. Apparently it has 600+ 5 star ratings. WTH!?! This is not a five star book, especially if you're thinking about word choice and grammar...

[DragonNighthowler]

When faced with a bad story that has lots of positive comments, you need to tread very carefully to be listened to.

 

First off, the critique needs to be very logic-based and full of examples, as well as ways to make things better. If you make a well-founded argument against the quality, and also suggest how to improve, the writer will likely be more receptive to your help.

 

Second, you need to be very calm and kind about it; make sure to highlight good parts as well, and say what works and how it could be even better. Make sure to keep your wording VERY careful and positive--I can speak from experience that it's really easy to accidentally say something very rude.

 

Third, I can't think of a third.

Agreed with this, particularly the wording thing and pointing out the good things she's doing.

 

It does help swallowing criticism if you know you're doing something good. The problem I had with the character (gosh, I ended up hating him when I wen't through the story once again and saw it under a new perspective) was that HE was the main character, and the secondary character, an assassin, swallowed him up completely. It was a much better character.

My friend pointed that out and I knew inmediatly what I had done wrong with the main character.

 

Eventually I just pulled off the whole thing. 400 pages (not much considering my longest work to date was 685, reduced to 600 by taking out all the dribble, and I'm still very satisfied). It did help me.

 

BUUUUT, I'm a person who takes criticism (criticism, not flaming, flaming hurts and doesn't help) very well. I had one of the toughest, hardest horse riding teachers and, had it not been for him, I would have been terrified to get back on a horse after the first fall (which hurt, a lot). I have learnt a bunch from the toughest people, which makes me weary torwards friendly people that praise to no end, because it's not sincere. But that's me.

 

In the end, she's your friend and it's your choice.

[taliaangeni]

Wow, do we have the same friend? My friend is the same and is always asking me if I have read her stories. I gave in and read one and it was just... Her ideas are good but her grammar is not - she's dyslexic. I went through and did a two chapter edit. She hasn't asked if I've read anymore of her stories. :/

[TLOSpyrogirl]

"she must always look exquisite every day. And every day, Amelia always looked stunning."

OH, WHOA WHOA, HOLD UP. MARY SUE ALERT.

 

 

Tell your friend to take this. http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm ...And take into account everything she checks.

 

Okay, anyway. Just tell her it needs work. That's all. Explain her mistakes and correct them. And that's it. It doesn't matter if you sound like a pretentious conceited elitist. And you won't anyway. It's just simply writing and grammar tips.

 

My writing isn't great, I don't think, but other people seem to like it. I try to keep the Sue away from my characters, and my grammar is good, at least.

[DarkEternity]

I disagree with the 'profound wisdom and knowledge' comment. 95% Mary Sues don't seem to be intelligent enough to pick up a FORK, let alone give wisdom! /facepalm

 

I disagree with the 'reconciling with bad parents part'. I think that a Mary Sue would be capable of reconciling with anyone they ever wanted. In my opinion, it makes them even more Sue-ish.

 

I disagree with one of the vampire statements. Being a 'mindless killer' puts them at a survival disadvantage.

 

TLOSpyrogirl it's way too generic. That page accounts for literally every book, story and character I have /ever/ read. Besides, in our society neither freedom of speech nor creativity is every vaunted.

 

For crap fanfics, I see some that have 300+ reviews.

For good fanfics, I have seen some that have just one or no reviews at all.

Edited November 26, 2011 by DarkEternity

[TLOSpyrogirl]

Actually, your character doesn't have to be a crazy, hot fashionista to be a Mary Sue. Some of them spout off knowledge constantly or are way too smart and won't shut up.

 

I didn't understand that one either.

 

Okay, have you watched half the vampire shows? 'OMG OMG CRY CRY SOB SOB I AM A VAMPIRE OMG IM A MURDERER I DESERVE TO DIE PPZLLZLZLZ KILL MEEEEEE'. I'd rather a mindless killer than an angsty teenage vampire, thank you very much.

 

And that is the point. Every character is a bit of a Sue or has some of the Sue symptoms. It's having a LOT of the Sue symptoms that makes them really bad.

Edited November 26, 2011 by TLOSpyrogirl

[DarkEternity]

I hate vampire shows. Mindless killer is definitely cliche. For a Zombie. But since it's undead, it makes sense.

 

And oh my, Canon Sues are the worst.... Of. Them. All.

[Syaoransbear]

Tell her what you honestly think. I think any serious writer would invite helpful criticism. When writing, there's nothing more frustrating than getting a bunch of fluff comments that boost your ego instead of your writing skills.

[DarkEternity]

Agreed.

Most writers tend to hate criticism. Unless it's watered down... that's the feeling I get.

[Xyzaq]

I'm pretty sure I used to be a atrocious writer - in fact, I probably still am. I was looking at my writing from two years ago... and oh, geez. It looks I was on crack while writing in.

 

An excerpt:

She yawned, plump pink lips opening wide, an adorable sound of contentment leaving her mouth. With a flip of her neck and a swish of her wrist, a sheet of strawberry-blonde hair fell down her back, instead of around her neck. Sleepy eyes blinked a couple times, before opening to reveal a color so vivid, so blue, it was almost creepy. She stepped out of bed and into a plush robe with her name embroidered on it - Julianna.

 

Julianna was tall - at least five foot seven. Her body was smooth, yet laced with muscle, with legs longer than humanely possible. Her skin was creamy and pale, beautifully porcelain.

 

watf, me.

[TLOSpyrogirl]

How about this? It doesn't matter if you're angsty, a killer, or sparkly-sparklepants, ALL vampires are Sues.

 

I LOVE criticism. And I also love laughing at morons who attempt to flame me. I also love the 'I love your story' reviews, of course. xP

What I'm wondering is why nobody said to me 'DUDE. IT'S 'Sparx's, NOT 'Sparxes''.' I would have appreciated that comment...

[terioncalling]

Definitely tread carefully on the criticism. I had a friend who wrote similarly badly and you couldn't say a word wrong about her writing without her completely flipping out over it. Possibly because she had an overwhelming dearth of those "ZOMG IS SO GOOD" comments.

 

Start slow, I'd say, on trying to get her to fix what's wrong. If she's open to it, push harder. If she's not, cite examples and pray you don't get the blow-ups I got with my former friend on the occasion I said something.

 

 

On the vampire thing, I think the thing to do is to create them as the person they were before (in detail or in just basics) and then apply the vampire template over it. From there, depending on the type of vampire, you figure out how their original personality would change. That's what I've done on my vampires, at least.

[Ruins]

Garfield, Bad***ery And Some Nonsense Lasagne

 

Read this. It is so bad it's hilarious, and the comments make it even better... Some rudeness, but I don't think it's too bad.

[7Deadly$ins]

I disagree with the 'profound wisdom and knowledge' comment. 95% Mary Sues don't seem to be intelligent enough to pick up a FORK, let alone give wisdom! /facepalm

 

I disagree with the 'reconciling with bad parents part'. I think that a Mary Sue would be capable of reconciling with anyone they ever wanted. In my opinion, it makes them even more Sue-ish.

 

I disagree with one of the vampire statements. Being a 'mindless killer' puts them at a survival disadvantage.

 

TLOSpyrogirl it's way too generic. That page accounts for literally every book, story and character I have /ever/ read. Besides, in our society neither freedom of speech nor creativity is every vaunted.

 

For crap fanfics, I see some that have 300+ reviews.

For good fanfics, I have seen some that have just one or no reviews at all.

The Litmus test is perfectly fine. Note that you don't check things that are normal in the universe.

[WhyllasTorch]

Garfield, Bad***ery And Some Nonsense Lasagne

 

Read this. It is so bad it's hilarious, and the comments make it even better... Some rudeness, but I don't think it's too bad.

 

...

Oh

...

lolwut

...

what is this

...

I don't even

...

oh my God

...

*head asplodes*

Edited November 26, 2011 by LwyllasLaVey

[TLOSpyrogirl]

I'd tell you what, exactly, we at FF.Net call stories like that, but we're not allowed to mention drugs on this forum.

I didn't read it, but I can guess by the reaction...

[DragonNighthowler]

Left the Pit sooooooo long ago, leaving some pretty awful stories unfinished. Got tired of awful stories getting hundreds of "OMG, this is AWEESHOOOOME!", and my stories pretty much getting one or two comment, and all praises.

 

I wanted constructive criticism. I wanted to learn. Knew I wouldn't find that there.

 

Anyways, there is nothing in the Pit I can't get from published authors. At least they finnish their stories (unless they die, which is pretty unfortunate). Got tired from reading unfinished stories that were never going to be concluded.

 

[TLOSpyrogirl]

The pit?

 

Try fanfiction.net. It's a lot of fun.