Is there a solution for destroyed lineages?

[lizardtail]

meh, it would be only for dragons with deceased dragons in the lineage. but again, i know nothing of coding. :< i just thought it would suit everyone's interests.

[Dragonhatchling]

But I'd rather see lineages done away with altogether then have other people decide that *I* can't kill a dragon on *my* scroll just because it might have relatives on someone else's scroll. Who cares if there are offspring on other people's scrolls? I'm not killing *their* dragons, I'm killing my own. It's rather selfish, I think, to suggest that people shouldn't be allowed to kill their own dragons just because *some* people care about how the lineage is affected.

This. Somewhat. I don't necessarily want lineages completely gone but everything else sums up what I was going to say.

 

There's my $0.02 on the subject

[stogucheme]

Personally, I don't give a crap about lineages. I know that a lot of people do, so anything that could be coded to not "destroy" a lineage just because of a dead dragon would be nice, I guess...

 

But I'd rather see lineages done away with altogether then have other people decide that *I* can't kill a dragon on *my* scroll just because it might have relatives on someone else's scroll. Who cares if there are offspring on other people's scrolls? I'm not killing *their* dragons, I'm killing my own. It's rather selfish, I think, to suggest that people shouldn't be allowed to kill their own dragons just because *some* people care about how the lineage is affected.

 

I honestly don't know the solution here, because I look at that lineage posted in the OP and I see nothing wrong with it. It still looks pretty to me. But again, I don't do lineages.

 

I'd support any solution that *didn't* try to restrict what I do on my own scroll.

OMG THIS. SO MUCH THIS.

[surevesta]

Now, something I'd not mind as much would be like this:

 

The lineage would ONLY be wiped for dragons on YOUR scroll. So, if you killed a dragon then all the decedents on YOUR scroll could have the lineage wiped--but the decedents on other scrolls would keep the lineage intact.

 

Additionally, any dragons bred from the offspring on your scroll would keep the broken lineage--even if the eggs were traded/abandoned. That makes sense from an RP perspective, because you're intentionally erasing part of the lineage so you wouldn't give that linage information to others/record it in a note on the hatchling/egg that you put on the AP.

 

As a result of the first point, any dragons bred from decedents on other scrolls besides your own would keep the full lineage, as the owner of that dragon is keeping the completed lineage information intact and passing it on.

 

 

That way, it allows you to "clean" lineages for your own use or simply kill for whatever reason you have, but others don't suffer from a broken lineage that they'd have rather kept intact. If they'd rather clean the lineage themselves, they can always breed the dragon then kill the parent to clean it themselves.

I think that's the perfect solution. If someone got a descendant from your dragon, they get the whole lineage information somehow. Now, no matter how often you burn your own lineage information of said dragon, the owner of the descendant still has their own copy of it. Meaning: You cannot burn the lineage records someone else keeps. Because their scroll and their records are theirs to do with as they please.

 

Making sense?

No. That then defeats the purpose of trading any offspring of those eggs. It also still ruins many deadline lineages. I trade people mine and I have IOUs from other peoples. I also have long lineaged metals, commons, etc that have been trimmed by the owners of their ancestors.

 

 

On the same token, considering all dragon eggs grabbed from the AP/Cave are technically *abandoned* why do they have lineages? Is their lineage written on their egg? Do they all come with a sheet of paper dictating their ancestry? Why aren't lineages only visible on your own scroll and eggs you get elsewhere "CB"?

 

 

Anyway, that's just being nitpicky.

 

I'd go for a button to click to make deceased lineages visible/invisible or clickable tombstones to see the deceased lineages (preferably the latter).

 

But, again, making deceased lineages invisible only on the scroll that killed said dragon is silly and defeats the purpose of dead lines in he first place.

 

I make dead lines to make shorter gens of hard to get dragons/lineages, much like other people, thus making "prettier" (to me) lineages to trade and share. I also share my lineages with people through trading, lottos, gifting, APing. These people who get them like them . . . thus making it only invisible on *MY* scroll whould just be rude.

[tjekan]

No. That then defeats the purpose of trading any offspring of those eggs. It also still ruins many deadline lineages. I trade people mine and I have IOUs from other peoples. I also have long lineaged metals, commons, etc that have been trimmed by the owners of their ancestors.

Actually, KageSora's proposal addressed that problem by saying that any new dragons bred from the dragon on your scroll after you erased its lineage would also have the hidden lineage. So that proposal wouldn't actually interfere with anyone's ability to hide their dragon's lineage for trading purposes-- only pre-existing offspring would show their lineage normally.

 

This sounds like it would be really difficult to implement compared to the various "display toggle" suggestions, but it does at least have the benefit of internal logic... if a dragon breeder destroyed all records of a dead dragon's parentage then it's plausible to think that new eggs from that lineage might be traded away with doctored pedigrees, but it's totally unbelievable that the act of killing a dragon would wipe out the memories of already-living dragons or that a dragon breeder would be able to sneak into other players' caves to destroy already-existing records.

 

ETA: I think I still personally prefer one of the display toggle ideas, though. Imagine if you have a long-lineaged Dorkface Thuwed tinsel that you decided to kill to make a deadline tinsel out of it. Depending on who you trade/gift its offspring to, some people would prefer to see the long Dorkface Thuwed lineage, while others would prefer to hide it and simply see the 3rd-gen lineage ending in tombstones. By making "hide lineage of dead dragons" a viewing option-- either determined on a dragon by dragon basis or chosen as an option by each user-- it could be the best of both worlds.

Edited November 15, 2011 by tjekan

[kerrikins]

I think a toggle is the only way to realistically and fairly approach this. If other people desperately want to see certain lineages, fine, they can enable it for those eggs. But for people who have tidied lineages and projects, I think they should be able to leave that option off.

[Fengari]

Personally I like the system as it is now, with the lineage behind the dead dragon disappearing.

 

But, I do understand the frustration of people who have worked hard on their even gen lineages when they get ruined. Personally, I take care not to kill dragons that have offspring on other people's scroll for that reason, but as that is my personal choice, that is not something that can be guaranteed.

 

If a solution to that problem is needed (as it seems it is), it should

1) not affect what people can do with the dragons they own (so no 'you can't kill it because it has offspring on other people's scrolls').

2) not take away the possibility of breeding offspring with a lineage that looks as you intended it to look. If I worked on a lineage with tombstones, and later trade away or gift offspring of that lineage, I DO NOT want the receiver to be able to see the parts that I cut off. I want to be able to determine how the lineage will look FOR EVERYONE if the egg is bred after the 'doctoring' took place.

 

Which is why I think we should find a solution that works only for the offspring that was bred before the killing occured, those that might already have been used to create something the new owner likes and might get ruined by the killing.

 

So this is what I suggest:

When you kill a dragon, if it has offspring, on the lineage pages of all the offspring that exists at that time, a message appears:

"One of the ancestors of your dragons was killed. Do you want to keep the records you have of the lineage of that dragon, or do you want to erase them?'

This way anyone with offspring from that dragon can choose to have the lineage 'doctored' or to have it stay as it was.

When you breed a dragon with a deceased ancestor in its lineage, if the records were erased on your scroll, the resulting egg doesn't get the erased information, but if the information is still there, the information will also be in the egg's lineage.

 

This way everyone can be happy: people who want to be able to erase parts of their dragons lineage, and produce new, doctored lineages, still can, but other people's lineages can't be destroyed anymore.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Fengari

[qkurai]

We already have limits on killing, I'd hate to have more restrictions put on it. If something like this happens, I do not want it to be retroactive, at all. Lineages that are pruned are pruned or shaped for a reason. Yeah, it sucks if it affects an abandoned egg or two that was used in a project, but we all took that risk by grabbing an egg off the AP or from another user.

 

I love Fengari's suggestion for this.

[Draketeeth]

I have no problem with the current system. If the dragons die and get erased then they die and get erased, less memory space in the system taken.

 

I actually find the lineages with dead dragons suddenly in the middle interesting. There's nothing "ruined" to them in my eyes. It has simply taken on a new shape. That seems to be half the fun of building lineages is the shape. Pyramids, spirals, tornados, arrows, steps, checkers, really an endless vareity.

 

Remember when DC didn't used to show lineages at all and you had to track them out by hand if you wanted to know? The lineage view completely changed the way people bred dragons, and maybe not always for the better. Now even if you have a desirable dragon (say a silver egg) but it's lineage isn't just so, you might as well be offering a double inbred. Gifting is more difficult, trading is more difficult, but you don't want to inbreed it yourself by accidently keeping the offspring of your dragon. So off to the wild it goes when someone plucks it from the AP and deems it "unworthy".

 

No, leave things the way they are. If folks want to trim lineages, that's their choice. I won't tell anyone how to run their scroll or that now I can see their "opps" breeding because I checkmarked a box they didn't. Let dead dragons die.

[raistardragon]

Ok, here's what I see. You're putting one style of play over another. Yes, it would SUCK if someone killed the dragons in my Even-Gen dragons. However, I also want to do my own Purebreed tinsel lines and if the lineages came back it would ruin it. What if I want to trade for or offspring of my lines? I don't want it to show the dragons lineages because they would be completely inbred, etc. I am happy with the current system and the chances there is with it.

[HeatherMarie]

But saying that you are "happy with the current system" so let's not change it, *that* is also putting one style of play over another. You like it the way it is, so you don't want any changes, but what about all of the people in this thread who obviously *don't* like it the way it is, because their beautiful lineages were destroyed? You can't say that someone is putting one playstyle over another, and then go and do the same thing yourself.

 

A toggle option, so each user has the *option* to see the lineages fully or "doctored" as they choose, wouldn't mess with *anyone's* playstyle. I fully support an option like that.

[Syphoneira]

But saying that you are "happy with the current system" so let's not change it, *that* is also putting one style of play over another. You like it the way it is, so you don't want any changes, but what about all of the people in this thread who obviously *don't* like it the way it is, because their beautiful lineages were destroyed? You can't say that someone is putting one playstyle over another, and then go and do the same thing yourself.

 

A toggle option, so each user has the *option* to see the lineages fully or "doctored" as they choose, wouldn't mess with *anyone's* playstyle. I fully support an option like that.

 

 

This pretty much covers it.

 

(Thanks, you're saving me posting time today! )

[tjekan]

What if I want to trade offspring of my lines? I don't want it to show the dragons lineages because they would be completely inbred, etc. I am happy with the current system and the chances there is with it.

Ok, now this argument kind of troubles me. If you're relying on obfuscation in order to get better trades, and would be upset because people might have the option of looking at the true lineage before trading for your eggs, then that's deceiving people. That's not cool.

 

There are lots of players out there who either don't mind dead lines, or actively like them. You would still be able to trade your eggs with them, and they would still be able to toggle their view to see the lineage exactly the way that you intended it. Your trading strategy shouldn't depend on fooling the small number of people who don't understand what the tombstones mean and wouldn't want to trade with you if they knew.

 

ETA: Also, from a purely mercenary point of view, why do you assume that giving the people you're trading with the option to see the true lineage would necessary hurt you? Some people might actually like your egg better if they could see its lineage. For example, I'm not interested in acquiring a tinsel that can't be traced back to one of the original prize dragons, but I don't necessarily mind seeing a dead dragon in the midst of a lineage, so if you have a deadline tinsel that traces back to booo or something, I would want it if I could see the lineage, but not if I couldn't. Would that scenario come up very often? No, probably not. But neither would you be encountering many people who mistakenly believe that tombstones must be CB's and would be upset to learn that they were not. There can't be many such people, and it wouldn't be nice to take advantage of the ones who exist.

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2011 by tjekan

[stogucheme]

Ok, now this argument kind of troubles me. If you're relying on obfuscation in order to get better trades, and would be upset because people might have the option of looking at the true lineage before trading for your eggs, then that's deceiving people. That's not cool.

 

There are lots of players out there who either don't mind dead lines, or actively like them. You would still be able to trade your eggs with them, and they would still be able to toggle their view to see the lineage exactly the way that you intended it. Your trading strategy shouldn't depend on fooling the small number of people who don't understand what the tombstones mean and wouldn't want to trade with you if they knew.

O.o It's...deceptive to kill dragons? ...............................................okay then.

 

I think they were referring to being upset that the lineage they made beautiful, which was previously inbred and messy, being turned down because of what it *used to* be like. I understand that.

 

And honestly? I like it the way it is. As someone wrote in the BtK thread, it's not unfair to keep a system the way it is. (Ironically, I think that same person is arguing the opposite here, but that's beside the point.)

 

Besides, you don't seem to argue about people making zombies. Give me some complaints about that and then maybe I'll consider it.

[tjekan]

O.o It's...deceptive to kill dragons? ...............................................okay then.

 

No, not at all. I think the vast majority of people who kill a dragon to neaten up a lineage are totally upfront about what they're doing, and I think the vast majority of people who trade for their eggs know exactly what they're getting and are happy with it. Many people LIKE these dead lines, and trade valuable things for them intentionally. Heck, people sometimes post a still-messy-lineaged egg for trade saying "I'm going to kill the parent dragons after one more breeding," and other users still take those trades.

 

If there are people out there who would reject the trade if they knew what the dragon's true lineage was, though, then yes, it's deceptive to hide that from them just to get a trade you want, and it's deceptive to lobby against a rule change solely on the basis that you might not be able to trick an unsuspecting person into buying something they otherwise wouldn't want. That's.... very skeevy.

Edited November 22, 2011 by tjekan

[stogucheme]

No, not at all. I think the vast majority of people who kill a dragon to neaten up a lineage are totally upfront about what they're doing, and I think the vast majority of people who trade for their eggs know exactly what they're getting and are happy with it. Many people LIKE these dead lines, and trade valuable things for them intentionally. Heck, people sometimes post a still-messy-lineaged egg for trade saying "I'm going to kill the parent dragons after one more breeding," and other users still take those trades.

 

If there are people out there who would reject the trade if they knew what the dragon's true lineage was, though, then yes, it's deceptive to hide that from them just to get a trade you want, and it's deceptive to lobby against a rule change solely on the basis that you might not be able to trick an unsuspecting person into buying something they otherwise wouldn't want. That's.... very skeevy.

But a dead dragon in the lineage automatically signals to a person, 'this could be anything! Inbred, messy, long-gen, low-gen, dorkface, thuwed, anything.'

 

Seriously, it's not like you can hide the fact that you killed the dragon...you can try, but you won't deceive anyone. I mean, do you (tjekan) assume that every dragon with a tombstone in its lineage was non-inbred? Does not compute.

[tjekan]

But a dead dragon in the lineage automatically signals to a person, 'this could be anything! Inbred, messy, long-gen, low-gen, dorkface, thuwed, anything.'

 

Seriously, it's not like you can hide the fact that you killed the dragon...you can try, but you won't deceive anyone. I mean, do you (tjekan) assume that every dragon with a tombstone in its lineage was non-inbred? Does not compute.

You don't seem to be following me here.

 

No, of course I don't assume tombstones are CB. Neither do most other players. Therefore, neither I nor most other players would suddenly start rejecting trades if we had the option of viewing the dragons' true lineages.

 

But the person I was responding to was worried that there were players who WOULD start rejecting his or her trades if they could see that the dragon was actually inbred. If there are in fact some people who don't understand how dead dragons erase lineages, and also can't stand inbred dragons, then using their ignorance to trick them into trading for a dragon they otherwise would not want is not very nice, and "because I want to keep tricking other people into trades they wouldn't want" is not a very nice argument for keeping the system the way it is.

 

I'm firmly convinced that most players who trade for a deadline dragon WANT a deadline dragon. Implementing a toggle is not likely to diminish the trading value of deadline dragons by very much, if at all. But if there are people out there who are confused and genuinely don't want those dragons, then far from being an argument against allowing a toggle, I think it's a strong argument FOR implementing a toggle. This isn't the kind of game that's meant to be about withholding information from newbies to trick them into doing things they don't want to.

Edited November 22, 2011 by tjekan

[HeatherMarie]

And honestly? I like it the way it is. As someone wrote in the BtK thread, it's not unfair to keep a system the way it is. (Ironically, I think that same person is arguing the opposite here, but that's beside the point.)

Fair enough.

 

However, when it comes to a completely optional toggle that you don't have to look at, you can even completely ignore it's existance, I see no reason to *not* change the system. In fact, it seems a bit unfair to keep the system the way it is, when the toggle-feature idea would make many users happy, and the users who don't want it don't have to be bothered with it at all. I don't see any downside to this suggestion.

 

If you "like the way it is", then just ignore the toggle option. And absolutely nothing will change for you. Your DragonCave experience will remain the same. But this feature option would make some *other* user's experiences a lot better.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Marie19R

[Fuzzbucket]

I'm firmly convinced that most players who trade for a deadline dragon WANT a deadline dragon. Implementing a toggle is not likely to diminish the trading value of deadline dragons by very much, if at all. But if there are people out there who are confused and genuinely don't want those dragons, then far from being an argument against allowing a toggle, I think it's a strong argument FOR implementing a toggle. This isn't the kind of game that's meant to be about withholding information from newbies to trick them into doing things they don't want to.

Well, not always.

 

I have traded for a deadline dragon simply because I wanted one of that breed, and I would still like to see which prize dragon my beloved deadline gold tinsel came from, to name but one - and the toggle option would work for me. How does it hurt anyone ? - those who don't want to see any messiness in the background don't have to.

[Fengari]

... How does it hurt anyone ? - those who don't want to see any messiness in the background don't have to.

It hurts me because I 'worked' (yes, I put this between brackets because I don't consider playing a game 'working', actually) on a 'new' kind of lineage, and now other people would have the option of seeing the unfinished product instead of the finished product.

It is not because I want to deceive people in trades, or even because I want to try to make my egg worth more, just because I want the lineage of the egg I bred to appear as I wanted it to appear.

 

This may be a bit farfetched comparison (but people seem to like those here): we don't get the option to 'toggle' between the finished sprite and the first version of a sprite, before redlining, recoloring etc., do we?

 

This is why I suggested to differentiate between eggs bred before and after the killing occurs. This way the problem of people having their existing lineages destroyed by an unexpected killing of an ancestor is fixed, but people like me who like to make something new still have that possibility.

 

Just saying it doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other, we can try to find a solution that satisfies most.

 

Unless the problem isn't actually the existing lineages being destroyed (which I would admit is a valid 'problem'), but people being afraid there will be too much doctored lineages that people actually like, bringing the value of their own low-gen clean lineages down... (just kicking the 'trade value' ball back, here...)

[Fuzzbucket]

For me there is no "value" issue, just one of interest.

[Fengari]

For me there is no "value" issue, just one of interest.

I realise that and it is unfortunate I have gone into that after quoting your post...

 

With that I was actually replying more to the people who use the 'you shouldn't be able to deceive people' argument.

 

I'm sorry I couldn't find a solution for your interest issue in my compromise too, but I'm afraid your 'I want to see it' and my 'I don't want you to see it' just can't be combined

 

Just as a little side-note, you probably already realise that: I don't think the histories of dragons that were already killed were kept anywhere, so even if a toggle-option was implemented that would probably not be able to bring the already lost info back.

[kerrikins]

It hurts me because I 'worked' (yes, I put this between brackets because I don't consider playing a game 'working', actually) on a 'new' kind of lineage, and now other people would have the option of seeing the unfinished product instead of the finished product.

The problem with this is that you can simply just not trade your offspring, if you don't want anyone to see the 'unfinished' product.

 

I want deadlines to be around, but I think we have to acknowledge that the best option is a compromise, because so many people want the lineages to be visible or for there to be an option to have the lineage be visible. A toggle is the only fair solution.

[tjekan]

I realise that and it is unfortunate I have gone into that after quoting your post...

 

With that I was actually replying more to the people who use the 'you shouldn't be able to deceive people' argument.

That must have been me then, since I am apparently the only one shocked that somebody would explicitly say "I don't want this because then people who didn't realize my dragons were inbred might not trade for them anymore." How anyone would NOT think that attitude is deceptive is really beyond me... and it's NOT a good argument against making a change!

 

However, I do think I've been misunderstood about the "trade value" issue. I was trying to explain that I thought trade value of dragons would NOT change (in either direction), because I really think the vast majority of people know perfectly well how tombstones work. Besides, the people who really don't realize that tombstones aren't CB's probably are newbies who do not have many valuable things to trade anyway. :-) It's still not nice to take advantage of their lack of knowledge.

 

(I believe I've already mentioned that I also believe most people who make deadline lineages do NOT take advantage of anyone this way, but I don't mind restating that again...)

 

Anyway, for me it keeps coming back to the fact that there is no possible logical explanation for why killing a dragon erases the family trees of all its relatives, so having that happen on our scrolls should really be optional. I love making lineages on my scroll too, but it's just NOT comparable to what a spriter does, sorry. Their work is copyrightable, which is why they have the right to control how it looks to everybody (not just themselves.) I don't believe we have such an inherent right just by rearranging their sprites on a page they way we prefer.

 

ETA: We don't even have the ability to control how our SCROLLS look to other users, you know. Other users get to choose how to display your scroll on their page. This would be no different than that.

Edited November 22, 2011 by tjekan

[Fengari]

The problem with this is that you can simply just not trade your offspring, if you don't want anyone to see the 'unfinished' product.

 

I want deadlines to be around, but I think we have to acknowledge that the best option is a compromise, because so many people want the lineages to be visible or for there to be an option to have the lineage be visible. A toggle is the only fair solution.

I can live with not trading them. I will also not gift them or abandon them, then. Not my loss.

Maybe I can just kill them to make new starters, my lineage will move along much faster...

 

I already suggested a compromise, fixing the 'broken lineages' issue, without touching the possibility of making deadlines that stay deadlines.

 

EDIT to reply to tjekan, who 'd me.

 

That must have been me then, since I am apparently the only one shocked that somebody would explicitly say "I don't want this because then people who didn't realize my dragons were inbred might not trade for them anymore." How anyone would NOT think that attitude is deceptive is really beyond me... and it's NOT a good argument against making a change!

 

However, I do think I've been misunderstood about the "trade value" issue. I was trying to explain that I thought trade value of dragons would NOT change (in either direction), because I really think the vast majority of people know perfectly well how tombstones work. Besides, the people who really don't realize that tombstones aren't CB's probably are newbies who do not have many valuable things to trade anyway. :-) It's still not nice to take advantage of their lack of knowledge.

 

(I believe I've already mentioned that I also believe most people who make deadline lineages do NOT take advantage of anyone this way, but I don't mind restating that again...)

 

Anyway, for me it keeps coming back to the fact that there is no possible logical explanation for why killing a dragon erases the family trees of all its relatives, so having that happen on our scrolls should really be optional. I love making lineages on my scroll too, but it's just NOT comparable to what a spriter does, sorry. Their work is copyrightable, which is why they have the right to control how it looks to everybody (not just themselves.) I don't believe we have such an inherent right just by rearranging their sprites on a page they way we prefer.

 

ETA: We don't even have the ability to control how our SCROLLS look to other users, you know. Other users get to choose how to display your scroll on their page. This would be no different than that.

Not only you, tjekan, there's other people who have stated they didn't want tombstones to erase the history of a dragon because it is deceptive. Maybe not here, maybe that was in the 'cave feedback thread'. I see you do agree that it actually isn't deceptive as you don't get to hide that you killed a dragon.

 

I also said myself the comparison with sprites was farfetched. I know it is a different thing altogether, and certainly when it comes to 'rights'. I just wanted to illustrate how I feel about other people being able to see the lineage I created in a different way than I intended it.

 

As to the scroll thing: I've seen suggestions of being able to view other people's scroll sorted like we want to see it shot down because that would destroy the work some people put into creating messages, lyrics, etc. through the names of their dragons.

 

 

But OK, as it seems my attempt to compromise is not taking off, let's talk about the toggle some more. Would you be able to toggle the lineage of your own dragons only, or would you also be able to toggle the lineage of dragons you do not own yourself? I think I could support it if I could decide how everyone gets to see MY dragons. I could even trade or gift my offspring to someone who promises to keep theirs ending in the tombstones too, so the dragons I bred would still look like I wanted them to look to everyone who views them.

Does that sound fair?

Edited November 22, 2011 by Fengari