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Dracaena

Is there a solution for destroyed lineages?

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I like pretty lineages. I do not like messy lineages. If I want fake gen tinsel that looks pretty then dang it -- THAT is what i want to see.. not the full messy lineage it used to be.

 

If I had a even-gen breeding project that someone else inadvertently ruined by killing one of their dragons.. SO WHAT. If the death caused the lineage to not be even-gen or something else I could work with breeding wise, then i would release it to the wild and begin on reworking the project or starting over if needed. Now that we have teleport, the ability to find people willing to help fill in gaps on projects is SOOOO much easier than it used to back in the day... no more risk losing the dragon in AP trade and no more wasted time trying to arrange schedules to meet up with someone in a chat room to make a trade.. just flip them a link and let them collect at their leisure.

 

I have 2 pretty gold metallic - 2nd gen twins actually. Parents were green and gold. The owner killed the green a few months after having produced the multi-clutch back in 2009. Didn't bother me. Sometime in the past year, the gold parent was killed (or the scroll burnt, not sure). So now I have two gold dragons with deceased parents. yeah it makes the lineage look "faked" when it in fact is NOT faked. However, the golds are oppositely gendered (I lucked out since it was long before influence was around). Since you can no longer tell that they were in fact twin siblings, I am now free to breed them together without the stigma of "inbreeding" if I ever want to. I can still include in any trade ads that the dead dragons were legit CBs.. doesn't mean people would believe me, but who cares. smile.gif

But the tombstones show... So they are obviously not CB.

 

I like to see a neat lineage on the page, when it is a pretty one. Even a faked one. But I WOULD like to be able to click on the tombstones and see background. too.

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Given that we can have more zombies now, it might be a good idea for some to-be-zombied specific lineages. I'd guess most people that do the zombies read the forums since there's not much under the descriptions to let anyone know zombies are possible. So, giving the broken lineages as an example of why you were starting the project, you might get lots of takers for it. This year people probably heard about the change and just browsed their scroll without thinking much of it.

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It seems to me that the fairest solution to let both of us have what we want would be to show the full lineage on any dragon born before the time of the ancestor dragon's death, and the hidden lineage on any dragon born after that. There'd really be no logic behind that at all other than "this would probably mess people's dragons up the least," though. There's no logical reason whatsoever why a dragon's pedigree would vanish into the ether once any of his ancestors die.

 

But what about the people out there who have handed out eggs and told the receivers that they're going to create a dead gen, so that egg is a 2nd gen? Or they've created a specific lineage? I know that this has happened over Halloween, there were some people who gave up shadow walkers specifically for 2nd gen deadgen tinsels, etc. Instead of that they'd get stuck with whatever messy line the tinsel had before.

 

How about the Rosebud project, where the eggs are necessarily born before the adults are killed? What you're suggesting couldn't do anything but completely destroy that, because now the lineages would show up again.

 

If it has to be anything, then have it simply be a link where if you *want* to, you can click on the tombstone and see the previous lineage. Don't force the old (sometimes messy) lineage onto the person who killed the dragon. It's not fair for one user to force a lineage on a person simply because they happened to pick up an egg that that user had presumably abandoned or gifted to them.

 

Simplest thing to say is just that if you don't want your even gen projects ruined, only use your own eggs.

 

Also, if something like this *does* get implemented, I think understandably it should only be going forward, not retroactive. It's not fair to many users otherwise, and angering one set to please another isn't a good idea.

Edited by kerrikins

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How about the Rosebud project, where the eggs are necessarily born before the adults are killed? What you're suggesting couldn't do anything but completely destroy that, because now the lineages would show up again.

Why should ONE project determine whether or not something be put into the game?

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Why should ONE project determine whether or not something be put into the game?

It's not about the project itself, I'm using that to point out that there are quite a few people with lines that they have worked very hard on that would have their work ruined by this.

 

So far, we all know that there is a possibility that if we pick up an egg and like the lineage, it might be ruined if someone kills an adult. We *all* know that, it's one of the risks of the game.

 

These other users, however, will have had absolutely no warning that all of a sudden their tombstones might suddenly regrow the previous lineages.

 

That's what would be unfair about this, and that's why I think that if this is implemented, it should only be going forward, not retroactive. People should start on even footing so that things like the Rosebud project can simply be stopped, not ruined. (Btw, I don't even have any caveborn Rosebuds, so I'm not a participant. I'm just using it as an example.)

Edited by kerrikins

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Wouldn't there be any way to make it OPTIONAL? For everyone involved to simply click a link or something and end up with what they want - destroyed lineage/restored lineage? That way nobody is 'holding a gun' to someone else's Scroll, yelling "YOU CAN"T DO THAT!"

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I used both a messy bronze and a messy silver tinsel to make short gens of tinsel lineages I'm likely never to see (bronzexballoon, for example). I like this and it was my choice, as owner of the dragons, to do so.

 

Personally I don't want to see the lineages extend past tombstones, but then, in addition to my own tinsels, I know of other lineages I have as well as ones people *purposefully* made with tombstones as part of it.

 

I can see where the OP was annoyed on the EG ruin of her tinsel, but on the same token it was the choice of the dragons owner to kill it (or a scroll was burned is another way, if I'm not mistaken).

 

I would not be adverse to seeing a clickable tombstone to go to a lineage page, but on the same token I DO NOT want my lineages that took months to create destroyed.

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Simplest thing to say is just that if you don't want your even gen projects ruined, only use your own eggs.

*shrugs* You could just as easily say "If you don't want your deadline even-gen projects ruined, use CB dragons for the mates you're planning to kill off," couldn't you?

 

I don't think either group's projects are more important than the other, but you do have to admit that it makes very little logical sense to be able to delete pieces of established lineages merely by killing off one of the dragons. How would that even work? In real genealogy projects, almost EVERYONE is dead, and the family tree doesn't disintegrate because of it.

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I also wanted to say that even if you may not like dead line tinsels, other people do. I traded a large number of them for additional shadow walkers over Halloween (between 1 and 4 each, mostly 2). I would *hate* for all those people to suddenly just be left with messy lineaged tinsels . . . not to mentional all the people I've gifted and traded with over the past couple months.

Edited by surevesta

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Well, again, why would the disappointment of a person who traded for a doctored short-gen tinsel only to find it was actually inbred be more important than the disappointment of a person who traded for an even-gen egg only to find it was no longer even-gen a few weeks later because the breeder killed one of its parents? They're pretty much the same frustration, aren't they? Why should one be more important than the other?

 

How's this for a compromise: you know how you can go into your settings and tell it how many dragons to display on your page? What if you also had an optional tick-box that said "Hide Deceased Lineages," and if you checked it, then no ancestors of any deceased dragons would display as long as you were logged in? That way genealogies of dead dragons would not completely (and illogically) vanish, but people who have no interest in them or prefer not to see them could turn them off in their settings and never have to worry about seeing them on *either* their scroll *or* anybody else's scroll.

 

Seems to me like that would let everybody either have their cake or eat it as they please. Somebody who likes to prune ugly inbred lineages by killing dragons could check the ticky-box and have prettier lineages to look at, whereas somebody whose already-pretty lineage has been trashed by a zombie spree could leave it off and also have a prettier lineage to look at. Win-win, wouldn't it?

Edited by tjekan

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Well, again, why would the disappointment of a person who traded for a doctored short-gen tinsel only to find it was actually inbred be more important than the disappointment of a person who traded for an even-gen egg only to find it was no longer even-gen a few weeks later because the breeder killed one of its parents? They're pretty much the same frustration, aren't they? Why should one be more important than the other?

 

How's this for a compromise: you know how you can go into your settings and tell it how many dragons to display on your page? What if you also had an optional tick-box that said "Hide Deceased Lineages," and if you checked it, then no ancestors of any deceased dragons would display as long as you were logged in? That way genealogies of dead dragons would not completely (and illogically) vanish, but people who have no interest in them or prefer not to see them could turn them off in their settings and never have to worry about seeing them on *either* their scroll *or* anybody else's scroll.

 

Seems to me like that would let everybody either have their cake or eat it as they please. Somebody who likes to prune ugly inbred lineages by killing dragons could check the ticky-box and have prettier lineages to look at, whereas somebody whose already-pretty lineage has been trashed by a zombie spree could leave it off and also have a prettier lineage to look at. Win-win, wouldn't it?

Because that's *their* dragon, which they had the right to kill? And now you're messing with their dragon?

 

Your compromise would work, I suppose. What about people viewing others' lineages though?

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Because that's *their* dragon, which they had the right to kill? And now you're messing with their dragon?

 

Your compromise would work, I suppose. What about people viewing others' lineages though?

No, I'm not talking about messing with the dead dragon. If they want to kill it, they should have the right to kill it. However, they don't necessarily have the right to erase all their dead dragon's ancestors (some of which may in fact belong to someone else) from the family tree (many of whose dragons do belong to someone else.)

 

If a person kills their dragon, then it is dead, and should appear as dead in other people's lineages. That's fair, and also makes logical sense. But the dead dragon's ancestors should not be purged from history because of it. That's not only unfair, but logically nonsensical.

 

Anyway, as to the check-box solution I suggested, it would work just like view dragons options. If you checked the box, then all ancestors of dead dragons in all lineages you viewed, regardless of whether it's your dragon or somebody else's, would be hidden.

 

I don't mind it as much when it's merely a display issue. If a user would like ancestors of dead dragons to be "out of sight, out of mind" for them personally, I think they should be able to have them not display. But they shouldn't be able to make them disappear from the family tree completely, nor force them to be hidden from other people who find it unaesthetic or (like me) frustratingly illogical. :-)

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Now, something I'd not mind as much would be like this:

 

The lineage would ONLY be wiped for dragons on YOUR scroll. So, if you killed a dragon then all the decedents on YOUR scroll could have the lineage wiped--but the decedents on other scrolls would keep the lineage intact.

 

Additionally, any dragons bred from the offspring on your scroll would keep the broken lineage--even if the eggs were traded/abandoned. That makes sense from an RP perspective, because you're intentionally erasing part of the lineage so you wouldn't give that linage information to others/record it in a note on the hatchling/egg that you put on the AP.

 

As a result of the first point, any dragons bred from decedents on other scrolls besides your own would keep the full lineage, as the owner of that dragon is keeping the completed lineage information intact and passing it on.

 

 

That way, it allows you to "clean" lineages for your own use or simply kill for whatever reason you have, but others don't suffer from a broken lineage that they'd have rather kept intact. If they'd rather clean the lineage themselves, they can always breed the dragon then kill the parent to clean it themselves.

I think that's the perfect solution. If someone got a descendant from your dragon, they get the whole lineage information somehow. Now, no matter how often you burn your own lineage information of said dragon, the owner of the descendant still has their own copy of it. Meaning: You cannot burn the lineage records someone else keeps. Because their scroll and their records are theirs to do with as they please.

 

Making sense?

Edited by olympe

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I think that's the perfect solution. If someone got a descendant from your dragon, they get the whole lineage information somehow. Now, no matter how often you burn your own lineage information of said dragon, the owner of the descendant still has their own copy of it. Meaning: You cannot burn the lineage records someone else keeps. Because their scroll and their records are theirs to do with as they please.

 

Making sense?

Yes, if that would be reasonably easy to code, I would also support that as a solution. :-)

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The checkbox option actually sounds like about the only real compromise possible...

 

But I did want to point out that big messy lineages are, by their nature, not likely to be used in epic even-gen projects, so the issue seems to actually be predominately limited to zombie attempts and killings for reasons other than lineage clean-up.

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But the tombstones show... So they are obviously not CB.

 

HUH??? How can you possibly conclude that the dead CB parents of my 2nd gen gold dragons were never CBs?

 

Gold twins I was talking about:

http://dragcave.net/lineage/O3e1

http://dragcave.net/lineage/abDh

 

Parents.. CB gold father, CB green mother.

* CB Green mother killed a few months after the multi-gold clutch was produced.

* CB Gold father killed within the past year (or the scroll was burnt)

 

I have 2 pretty gold metallic - 2nd gen twins actually. Parents were green and gold. The owner killed the green a few months after having produced the multi-clutch back in 2009. Didn't bother me. Sometime in the past year, the gold parent was killed (or the scroll burnt, not sure). So now I have two gold dragons with deceased parents. yeah it makes the lineage look "faked" when it in fact is NOT faked. However, the golds are oppositely gendered (I lucked out since it was long before influence was around). Since you can no longer tell that they were in fact twin siblings, I am now free to breed them together without the stigma of "inbreeding" if I ever want to. I can still include in any trade ads that the dead dragons were legit CBs.. doesn't mean people would believe me, but who cares.

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I actually quite like things the way they are now. We all know there's a risk that an ancestor may be killed whenever we accept an egg from someone else. I guess I haven't been personally affected by this much, but if I were into huge even gen projects, and one of the lineages were ruined by a dead ancestor somehwere, It would just mean releasing the dragon and starting over. The only problem I would have is if any spriters alts or original cb tinsels were killed since those can't be replaced with someone else's.

Besides, I want to make a purebred tinsel line and you can't do that without using the tombstones.

 

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Being a IRL breeder, and a 'once and a while' breeder here, my suggestions would be one of two.

 

For the person who wishes to kill their dragon, hopefully for zombie fodder and not just to do it, go for it. But on any lineages that it appears on, the only thing that would change, say on a even gen line, a tombstone would appear where that dragon was, without erasing the parents or that line in full. It wouldnt muck up any liniages, simply replacing dead dragon with new tombstone.. (as in a IRL breeding you wouldnt erase the whole line, just put a death mark next to the dead ancestor) For IRL breeding you still need the genetics known, so there isnt *oops lost the line*

 

(I also have a sick desire to see a Zombie if it was infact killed for Zombie reasons if the Zombification worked. I dont know if this already works, but would make sense to me)

 

My other idea is almost the same as the first with a secondary option for each individual scroll owner.

 

Just like our ability to organize our scrolls the way we want to: we should be able to see what part of a liniage we want to. (might even help for some slow loading computers)

 

Say you have a 15 gen dragon, but your computer is slow, or the breeding isnt all that great, or whatever the reason, you set your scroll to show only 4 generations and below, that way it should load faster, and you see what you want. Now for killed linieages.

 

You have part of you liniage cut off because someone else killed a dragon they own, and your bent out of shape because the liniage was pretty until that other owner did what they are intittled to do with there own dragons... You should have the option to show like the top suggestion, the full original liniage with a tombstone in the spot of the killed dragon, or you can hide the lineage.

 

There can even be perminat status on this, after you *hide/burn/erase* the liniage, that lineage could be made a perminate status now. Or not. Whatever.

 

Another suggestion that just popped into my head is the option that you can Hide/ Lineages. Or if you Kill dragons (just to shorten the liniage) that the line would be erased, but a marker would still show how many generations that dragon was. Making the death of a dragon for a shorter gen line a moot point on that account....

 

*there is no such thing as inbreeding on DC so I wont even suggest that*

 

I danno... I dont care much either way. You cant dictate what people do with there own dragons, so whether anything comes from this thread or not, Ive given my suggestion. Happy Hunting

Edited by HarperRider

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HUH??? How can you possibly conclude that the dead CB parents of my 2nd gen gold dragons were never CBs?

 

Gold twins I was talking about:

http://dragcave.net/lineage/O3e1

http://dragcave.net/lineage/abDh

 

Parents.. CB gold father, CB green mother.

* CB Green mother killed a few months after the multi-gold clutch was produced.

* CB Gold father killed within the past year (or the scroll was burnt)

 

Oh sorry - misspoke.

 

I don't think anyone would believe it, I should have said. Because why would anyone kill CBs at the start of a lineage except to tidy it up.

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(I also have a sick desire to see a Zombie if it was infact killed for Zombie reasons if the Zombification worked. I dont know if this already works, but would make sense to me)

I agree with this too, it would be seriously epic to see a zombie sprite in the lineage if the dead dragon has been zombified!

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Oh sorry - misspoke.

 

I don't think anyone would believe it, I should have said. Because why would anyone kill CBs at the start of a lineage except to tidy it up.

Back before DC had its own lineage viewer... fansite lineage viewers didn't show the tombstones so dragons like alt blacks and alt vines with dead parents "appeared" CB.. you did not know they were faked until you clicked to the dragons' view page and saw that it had deceased parents listed. And then there was the great rare breeding glitch.. so people weren't so hesitant to kill rares for line cleaning because during the glitch they were practically a dime a dozen. you could not even give away CB silvers.

 

An example of a true 3rd even gen where the CBs were killed for a specific purpose by the breeder. http://dragcave.net/lineage/ejt5 I absolutely adored the look of the dragon and had a lot of respect for someone who had the guts to kill off CB golds. That purpose/look however ceased when TJ eventually added a lineage viewer to DC itself and then made tombstones of the dead dragons permanently visible (used to be they were only there until their code cleared the system and the only permanent tombstones were zombies).

 

I am pretty certain that when the green parent of my 2nd gen gold twins was killed it was due to aesthetic reasons. Back then.. golds bred really well with greens but the greens don't really "look" good paired with the gold in regards to viewing a lineage...which is why I totally didn't have a problem with the parent showing up dead one day. smile.gif

 

 

(I also have a sick desire to see a Zombie if it was infact killed for Zombie reasons if the Zombification worked. I dont know if this already works, but would make sense to me)

 

I had about 14 zombie attempts lined up this year. A bunch of CB hatchlings mostly - nothing special. Of the 5 adults.. the one I wanted to "fail" and not become a zombie did fail (I wanted to clean up the daughter's line and make her into a staircase... goal achieved). Of the other adults... the two I wanted most to be successful did become zombies.

 

Lethal Zombie is a tinsel deadline... just pretty eye candy. http://dragcave.net/lineage/JtYjo

 

Lethal's brother, Sin River, gave me a pretty tinsel child (Styx River) and it was Styx's mother that became my best successful zombie. This line was designed to still follow the tinsel tombstone pattern but with a zombie special effect thrown in for lulz. Quite proud of it really. smile.gif

 

Styx River: http://dragcave.net/lineage/Md5m1

Edited by WraithZephyr

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otherwise, maybe it can be the offspring's owners decision?

 

as in say, i kill a dragon with a lineage and children. the dragon will be come a "CB" tombstone. but lets say you own a child, then you can decide whether or not to show the full lineage of the deceased on your lineage pages. but then, someone else owns grandchildren of the deceased. then they can have their own option to turn on/off the deceased lineage, and your decision doesnt alter theirs.

 

then, lets say you're looking at someone elses dragon, totally unrelated, but also with deceased. you will see what they see.

 

if there are multiple deceased in a lineage, then on your offspring's action page, you can choose an option "Hide deceased lineages?" and then it takes you to a page where you can click and choose which deceased lineages to hide.

 

lets say dragonA is dead, and you own two offspring. then you can have different settings for each offspring. so that in offspring1, you can see dragonA's lineage. but in offspring2, you cant.

mmr? any other opinions on this? tjekan's idea is similar to mine, but this way, instead of changing the settings for the entire scroll, it changes them for the individual dragon. so if you own both a ruined even gen and a dead line, you can have a separate setting for each so they both show up how you want. wink.gif

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Why can't we just have a "Show lineage of deceased dragons?" check-box somewhere on our account settings page? Seems easy enough...

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Why can't we just have a "Show lineage of deceased dragons?" check-box somewhere on our account settings page? Seems easy enough...

well, i was thinking of people who own multiple types of lineages with dead dragons. as in, if i own a pretty even gen that was destroyed by a dead dragon and i own a lineage that was cropped by purposely killing dragons, i could have both lineages shown exactly how i wanted them to, and it would only affect how my dragons looked to everyone, without withholding rights and without eiting someone elses dragons.

 

ETA: i have no idea if this is code-able btw. O.o

Edited by lizardtail

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well, i was thinking of people who own multiple types of lineages with dead dragons. as in, if i own a pretty even gen that was destroyed by a dead dragon and i own a lineage that was cropped by purposely killing dragons, i could have both lineages shown exactly how i wanted them to, and it would only affect how my dragons looked to everyone, without withholding rights and without eiting someone elses dragons.

 

ETA: i have no idea if this is code-able btw. O.o

That would also be an improvement over the current setup, but I think it would take up WAY more processing power to save that setting for every individual dragon in the system than it would to just save a single display setting for each user. IANTJ, though. ;-)

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