Is there a solution for destroyed lineages?

[Dracaena]

To give an example of what I am talking about, here is my dragon who's even generation lineage is now wrecked by what appeared to be Halloween wanna be zombie making. You might say it is only a purple tinsel fail, who cares? I care, that was my only dragon with Dr Who lineage and I was tickled to get it. Now it is useless to me for breeding stock. The dragon who was killed was Draconis Magda on Oct 17, two weeks before Halloween. The parents of Draconis Magda were Aurelianus Rosa von Dingens and Magda von Dingens if anyone wants the lost lineage information. This death affected 41 direct descendant even generation tinsels, who are not even generation anymore. This is only one example, I am sure there are many, many more across Dragon Cave.

 

I know the rule is you can do whatever you want with dragons on your scroll. But is perma death of lineages with no recourse the way to continue? I would like to suggest that it be changed to you can't kill a dragon on your scroll with children on other people's scrolls. I think this situation will get worse, the correction of zombies no longer permanently taking a kill slot has opened the floodgates to the killing. I am aware of many breeders now making tombstone lineages, the responsible breeders wouldn't be affected by my suggestion as they are already breeding an additional generation for killing so not to impact other people's scrolls.

 

I have no idea if this is even feasible from a coding standpoint. The only option currently available to avoid wrecked lineages is have all the dragons on your own scroll. This would turn things into a very isolationist game for breeders. It would also affect the other players as the isolationist breeders would no longer be picking eggs up off the AP but still be dropping eggs that came out the wrong breed. That massive blocking AP would get worse.

 

I don't want to become an isolationist. I really do enjoy trading and looking for that great AP find. I was perfectly happy to just trade for dragons with golds in the lineages and not worry about getting a gold on my scroll, as I really only like the color and not the sprite. But now I am so discouraged I haven't even bred the intended mate for my tinsel, one dragon is from the AP. How do I know that lineage will still be there next week?

 

I have just been playing for four months, maybe I am being short sighted from lack of experience. Please help brainstorm this and see if there could be a viable solution to this problem or is the status quo the only way?

 

*footnote

I see TJ09's post of 11/13 in the Cave Feedback thread.

Conversely, what do people think about me making the site store the lost linage information so that the lineage can continue past the tombstones, preventing people from "doctoring" lineages. To me, it seems disingenuous to try to misrepresent dragons, so... 

Not sure if he means by that the gaping hole in the existing lineage will be ghosted in or a tombstone clickable information.

Going to take a chance this idea isn't considered a duplicate and post.

[Obscure_Trash]

Nuuuuuu. I would much rather lineages didn't disappear than you couldn't kill your own dragons because you had abandoned their children. owo

[~!~]

I have no idea if this is even feasible from a coding standpoint.  The only option currently available to avoid wrecked lineages is have all the dragons on your own scroll.  This would turn things into a very isolationist game for breeders.  It would also affect the other players as the isolationist breeders would no longer be picking eggs up off the AP but still be dropping eggs that came out the wrong breed.  That massive blocking AP would get worse.

Why not give people the option when they kill a dragon of erasing the lineage or not? And perhaps if you've abandoned any of the offspring of that dragon, you have to keep the lineage?

 

EDIT: Only abandoned, not Teleported. That way, you can give people you've Teleported eggs to a heads up and get their input (would be handy with a Teleport-tracking feature) or warn people afterwards "I may kill the dragons in this lineage," and also makes it so that you can trade dragons to people who want the doctored lineages.

Edited November 14, 2011 by ~!~

[Saloiq]

I would like to suggest that it be changed to you can't kill a dragon on your scroll with children on other people's scrolls.

But what if you want to trade potential zombie offspring? I know a lot of people were swapping 2nd gens from zombie fodder parents this year.

 

Why not give people the option when they kill a dragon of erasing the lineage or not?

I think this would be nice. Then I could have checkers with tombstones. *_*

Edited November 14, 2011 by Saloiq

[tjekan]

I had that happen to me. Somebody traded me an even-gen dragon and then killed one of its parents a few weeks later, in what appears to have been the creation of a stupid fake low-gen tinsel. I certainly hope that they simply forgot they'd actually traded one of its children away for something nice, rather than just not caring.

 

Anyway, annoying though that was, I'd hate to see people's playing constrained by a ban on killing. I'd prefer if lineages would continue existing even if a parent has been killed. A person's grandparents don't stop being his grandparents just because his father dies, and a horse's breeder doesn't suddenly forget his pedigree just because his sire dies, so I don't see any reason why a dragon's death should erase its lineage.

 

That'll affect my lineages too, of course... I have some dragons with ancestors who were killed *years* ago and I have no idea on earth what's behind the tombstones. But I'd still rather find out something unpleasant about them than have any more "disappeared" lineages. :-)

[lizardtail]

hmm. if nothing else, maybe there could be an option on a dragon's action page where you can "put it on death row", -and on the dragons lineage page, the usually black outline around the dragons tile will be red instead. that way, it warns anyone who owns offspring to know that "hey, this dragon will be killed. watch out."

 

im not sure i can think of anything else but a warning that can help. a persons dragon is theirs, and they can do as they wish with them, regardless of lineage/progeny.

 

 

 

otherwise, maybe it can be the offspring's owners decision?

 

as in say, i kill a dragon with a lineage and children. the dragon will be come a "CB" tombstone. but lets say you own a child, then you can decide whether or not to show the full lineage of the deceased on your lineage pages. but then, someone else owns grandchildren of the deceased. then they can have their own option to turn on/off the deceased lineage, and your decision doesnt alter theirs.

 

then, lets say you're looking at someone elses dragon, totally unrelated, but also with deceased. you will see what they see.

 

if there are multiple deceased in a lineage, then on your offspring's action page, you can choose an option "Hide deceased lineages?" and then it takes you to a page where you can click and choose which deceased lineages to hide.

 

lets say dragonA is dead, and you own two offspring. then you can have different settings for each offspring. so that in offspring1, you can see dragonA's lineage. but in offspring2, you cant.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

100% agree with keeping lineages intact.

 

I had a 7th gen purebred stripe that was part of an ongoing 10 gen even gen project, and someone killed a 2nd gen which destroyed the even gen of my dragon. http://dragcave.net/lineage/c4WJ Considering how difficult stripe breeding has been in the recent past, this was a major disaster that will probably take months to repair.

 

I also would like to see lineages kept intact to avoid the 'fake' short gens, the 'fake' caveborns and the 'fake' even gens. You want to kill your dragon, it's fine by me, but if I have one of your abandoned offspring, my lineages shouldn't be destroyed due to your choice.

 

'YOUR' being an in general term not directed at anyone specifically... except maybe the player that tampered with my breeding project. No clue whom it was since the tombstone isn't clickable. The other two tombstones are clickable, meaning those two dragons are zombies which leave lineages intact.

[~!~]

otherwise, maybe it can be the offspring's owners decision?

 

as in say, i kill a dragon with a lineage and children. the dragon will be come a "CB" tombstone. but lets say you own a child, then you can decide whether or not to show the full lineage of the deceased on your lineage pages. but then, someone else owns grandchildren of the deceased. then they can have their own option to turn on/off the deceased lineage, and your decision doesnt alter theirs.

 

then, lets say you're looking at someone elses dragon, totally unrelated, but also with deceased. you will see what they see.

 

if there are multiple deceased in a lineage, then on your offspring's action page, you can choose an option "Hide deceased lineages?" and then it takes you to a page where you can click and choose which deceased lineages to hide.

 

lets say dragonA is dead, and you own two offspring. then you can have different settings for each offspring. so that in offspring1, you can see dragonA's lineage. but in offspring2, you cant.

This sounds good to me. I'd make it so that eggs bred after the dragon was killed would not have the option of showing the dead ancestor's lineage, though.

[lizardtail]

This sounds good to me. I'd make it so that eggs bred after the dragon was killed would not have the option of showing the dead ancestor's lineage, though.

yes, thats good. the egg's lineage wouldn't have been ruined if it was already dead. ^^

[Sheriam]

Some nice lineages may be ruined, others are cleaned up. I tried two heavily inbred for zombies, they didn't resurrect so the lineage is cleaned up. Okay, it still isn't a *pretty* lineage but at least it no longer shows any inbreeding. And one of them had lots and lots of offspring. I doubt the owners of those dragons are complaining!

 

Also the zombies that do resurrect are very cool to have in a lineage (at least I think so).

 

I am looking forward to going through all my dragons lineages in a couple days when the last failed zombie lineages are gone, sure I'll curse when I find one that's messed up but maybe I'll also find another that's cleaned, or one where the zombie looks much nicer than the original breed... win some, lose some.

 

And I think it's not only impractical but also a bit selfish to want to control what other people do with their dragons because you own an offspring several generations away, it's their dragon, after all. Tjekan's case is a bit different, I think it's rather rude of the person he traded with to kill off one parent shortly after trading the offspring as a nice even-gen. That's one person I wouldn't trade with if it'd been done to me, but that doesn't mean the killing itself should be blocked, or that we are responsible for what happens to the grandparents and great-grandparents of the dragons we trade.

 

[HeatherMarie]

Personally, I don't give a crap about lineages. I know that a lot of people do, so anything that could be coded to not "destroy" a lineage just because of a dead dragon would be nice, I guess...

 

But I'd rather see lineages done away with altogether then have other people decide that *I* can't kill a dragon on *my* scroll just because it might have relatives on someone else's scroll. Who cares if there are offspring on other people's scrolls? I'm not killing *their* dragons, I'm killing my own. It's rather selfish, I think, to suggest that people shouldn't be allowed to kill their own dragons just because *some* people care about how the lineage is affected.

 

I honestly don't know the solution here, because I look at that lineage posted in the OP and I see nothing wrong with it. It still looks pretty to me. But again, I don't do lineages.

 

I'd support any solution that *didn't* try to restrict what I do on my own scroll.

[Teez]

Frankly, I like things as they are. I've bred a few dragons and killed the parents; I like the look of tombstones better than a big unplanned, inbred mess. :\

 

If there was an option for the people who own the offspring to show the full lineage, I wouldn't care as long as it didn't affect how the lineages appeared for my own dragons.

[Winddancir]

But I'd rather see lineages done away with altogether then have other people decide that *I* can't kill a dragon on *my* scroll just because it might have relatives on someone else's scroll. Who cares if there are offspring on other people's scrolls? I'm not killing *their* dragons, I'm killing my own. It's rather selfish, I think, to suggest that people shouldn't be allowed to kill their own dragons just because *some* people care about how the lineage is affected.

This. It's my dragon and if I want to kill it to clean out a lineage... It's my choice.

 

It is a risk you take when trading for eggs, or finding something on the AP. If I want to kill off something that has a longer lineage and make a fake "2nd" gen dragon, that's my choice. I don't want some one else going "You can't do that because of my dragon's lineage" as that would be just as bad as some one telling me what to breed and that I can't breed this or that pair.

[OMGitsKairi]

But I'd rather see lineages done away with altogether then have other people decide that *I* can't kill a dragon on *my* scroll just because it might have relatives on someone else's scroll. Who cares if there are offspring on other people's scrolls? I'm not killing *their* dragons, I'm killing my own. It's rather selfish, I think, to suggest that people shouldn't be allowed to kill their own dragons just because *some* people care about how the lineage is affected.

I'll have to put in my $.02 and say I also agree with this.

[lizardtail]

D: i love my lineages, and im sure many others do also. ive worked hard on lineages, and dont want to see that go to waste with lineages being abolished. with my suggestion, everyone can see the lineages as they wish. people can kill without being told not to, and offspring keep the lineage. :<

[HeatherMarie]

I think your suggestion makes sense, lizardtail... Except the "death row" part. That kind of confused me.

 

But making an option of how to see the lineage would be good.

 

I didn't literally mean that I *wanted* lineages to go away, I just think if it starts getting to a point where people want to limit what I can do on my own scroll just because of lineages, then something needs to be thought about.

[lizardtail]

lol the "Death row" was what i thought of first, as a sort of warning. kind of like when people name their dragons something like "zombie fodder". then i had a different idea and never bothered deleting the first part. you can ignore that.

[KageSora]

Major no from me on the "can't kill if offspring on other scrolls" thing. No way should what's on other people's scrolls dictate what I can or cannot do with what's on my scroll. My scroll, my dragons, my decision about what to do with them, including if they live or die. I have absolute authority over what is on my scroll (within the bounds of the game and the rules), and my dragons are mine to do with as I please. If I chose to allow them to live, they live. If I should decided that they will die, they will die. Telling me "No, you no longer have absolute authority over your dragons, because I like it how it is" is not going to fly. That'd be like saying "Since you have the offspring of my dragon, I get to dictate how you breed them, and even if you breed them, so I can ensure that my lineage will continue on your scroll."

 

 

I do think it's a little odd for them to vanish, though. I mean, from an RP perspective we clearly have the lineage information from somewhere, or else it wouldn't appear on the eggs that we get from the AP/Teleport since the data on our scroll is OUR notes on our dragons, so why do we suddenly forget the information that we recorded on the lineage when an ancestor dies?

 

 

 

Now, something I'd not mind as much would be like this:

 

The lineage would ONLY be wiped for dragons on YOUR scroll. So, if you killed a dragon then all the decedents on YOUR scroll could have the lineage wiped--but the decedents on other scrolls would keep the lineage intact.

 

Additionally, any dragons bred from the offspring on your scroll would keep the broken lineage--even if the eggs were traded/abandoned. That makes sense from an RP perspective, because you're intentionally erasing part of the lineage so you wouldn't give that linage information to others/record it in a note on the hatchling/egg that you put on the AP.

 

As a result of the first point, any dragons bred from decedents on other scrolls besides your own would keep the full lineage, as the owner of that dragon is keeping the completed lineage information intact and passing it on.

 

 

That way, it allows you to "clean" lineages for your own use or simply kill for whatever reason you have, but others don't suffer from a broken lineage that they'd have rather kept intact. If they'd rather clean the lineage themselves, they can always breed the dragon then kill the parent to clean it themselves.

[kerrikins]

This kind of confuses me, to be honest.

 

Let's say I breed two dragons, and I give away their baby. The person who gets that baby then decides to make an epic even gen project with that egg as part of it.

 

So according to this thread, it's now *my* responsibility to not kill my dragons because of what they chose to do with the egg that I abandoned or gave away? Really?

 

What if there's a hugely messy lineage and I choose to kill a dragon to clean that up? You realise that while this would 'clean up' some lineages, it would *ruin* others?

 

I say that we all know the risks. I don't think it's fair to have playing hampered by what other players might want to do. It's a risk we all take picking up eggs off the AP.

 

If it has to be anything, then have it be that it's a choice when the dragon is first killed. "yes, keep the lineage' or 'no, don't' so that if the person knows it's part of something epic, they can keep it. I have issues with the idea of ancestors showing on other people's scrolls because if I don't want the lineage of *my* dragon to show, why should it show to other people? There has to be a balance... That and some people like deadgens and getting eggs from them.

 

I think this has the potential to be complicated, and I think I really prefer that things just stay the way they are.

Edited November 14, 2011 by kerrikins

[Fuzzbucket]

Now, something I'd not mind as much would be like this:

 

The lineage would ONLY be wiped for dragons on YOUR scroll. So, if you killed a dragon then all the decedents on YOUR scroll could have the lineage wiped--but the decedents on other scrolls would keep the lineage intact.

 

Additionally, any dragons bred from the offspring on your scroll would keep the broken lineage--even if the eggs were traded/abandoned. That makes sense from an RP perspective, because you're intentionally erasing part of the lineage so you wouldn't give that linage information to others/record it in a note on the hatchling/egg that you put on the AP.

 

As a result of the first point, any dragons bred from decedents on other scrolls besides your own would keep the full lineage, as the owner of that dragon is keeping the completed lineage information intact and passing it on.

 

That way, it allows you to "clean" lineages for your own use or simply kill for whatever reason you have, but others don't suffer from a broken lineage that they'd have rather kept intact. If they'd rather clean the lineage themselves, they can always breed the dragon then kill the parent to clean it themselves.

Well, yes and no. I love my fake even gen gold tinsel. I didn't kill it's ancestors and yes, I'd like to know which CB it came from - but I do NOT want it not showing the tombstones and suddenly collecting all that past lineage now that I have it, because the deaths didn't happen on my scroll - I want it to stay the way I received it.

 

But no to not being able to kill my dragons just to suit someone else's lineage. This is why I only build lineages with stock from other lineage breeders and personal friends ! (Or do it all myself.) I am absolutely NOT saying I ever WOULD - I rarely kill anything at all and usually CB for zombling ! - but I must have that RIGHT ! They are MINE ! (That said, if I EVER considered doing, I would check on the kids, to see if there is a lineage attached. ) I think probably what we all who love lineages do is just work with each other, and hope for the best !

 

And OK - clean your own lineage, you say - but suppose someone else has one of your kids ? Did you remember that day when you got a waverunner instead of a waterwalker, so you APd it ? Oops... Too late now - Daddy's dead. And there goes a lineage you didn't even know about.

 

I am gobsmacked to see the deaths in those massive lineages though. Really strange.

[darkshadow5392]

also even from a nonbreeder standpoint the current lineage system is a bit odd

 

relate it to real life, say that a parent died, the grandparents are still that kid's grandparents

 

could there be a scroll to scroll option like "view deceased lineage"

i've had times when i wished i could see this dragon's heritage

 

my zombie family tree flopped because the children parts of it died without revival so even if a grandparent goes zombie the grandchild won't be connected (these are all on my scroll so this is an example that doesn't effect others)

for example http://dragcave.net/lineage/cMSHD the upper deceased are both CB but if bbkw doesn't zombify next year my zombie will just have one tomb in it's history rather that 3, because he is a zombie i actually want to see his grandparents tombs

[angelicdragonpuppy]

While I haven't had bad experiences with people killing my dragon's ancestors (that I know of), I WILL chip in with my opinion about another lineage annoyance--name loss in ancestors. :/

I have this 6th gen, even gen, purebred sunsong: http://dragcave.net/lineage/RXrfd The top quarter of dragons in the lineage all used to have lovely names from the Aetas lineage. Now it looks a lot uglier with random codes times a bajillion. If I might make a suggestion, could lineages keep the ghost names of ancestors, even if those ancestors become unnamed?

 

I know this might become an issue with some lineages then appearing to have two dragons with the same name, but think about it: first of all, there wouldn't REALLY be two dragons with the same name, one'd be unnamed on its page and the other would have the name. If the person with the unnamed dragons returned someday and gave them new names, those new names would replace the old ghost names. Also, in the case of the rarest named dragons (Thuweds and Dorkface, I'm thinking), the chances of those users ever disappearing to let them go to unnamed ghost status is very slim... and even if they did, it should be pretty easy to tell any fakes who might snatch up the name in their absence from the originals.

[Amazon_warrior]

I'm not sure about this, really. As much as it sucks very, very hard to have a lineage ruined by a thoughtless action, it would also rather suck to destroy something like the even-gen Rosebud x tombstone Tinsel lineage, which specifically revolves around "cleaned" lineages and which seems to have an enthusiastic following. I'm rather hoping to do a similar lineage with gold Tinsels and Ribbondancers, and already I've had a few people mention that they'd like to participate and swap lineages. Trouble is, I'm not sure any of the solutions proposed here would allow me/us to do that. For example, I was gifted this pretty and I'm sure both I and the parents' owner would be annoyed if they suddenly couldn't kill that Tinsel simply because they were kind enough to offer me an egg towards my lineage. Similarly, the gift becomes less useful if I can still see the lineage after the Tinsel father dies. Not sure there's an easy solution to this.

[WraithZephyr]

I like pretty lineages. I do not like messy lineages. If I want fake gen tinsel that looks pretty then dang it -- THAT is what i want to see.. not the full messy lineage it used to be.

 

If I had a even-gen breeding project that someone else inadvertently ruined by killing one of their dragons.. SO WHAT. If the death caused the lineage to not be even-gen or something else I could work with breeding wise, then i would release it to the wild and begin on reworking the project or starting over if needed. Now that we have teleport, the ability to find people willing to help fill in gaps on projects is SOOOO much easier than it used to back in the day... no more risk losing the dragon in AP trade and no more wasted time trying to arrange schedules to meet up with someone in a chat room to make a trade.. just flip them a link and let them collect at their leisure.

 

I have 2 pretty gold metallic - 2nd gen twins actually. Parents were green and gold. The owner killed the green a few months after having produced the multi-clutch back in 2009. Didn't bother me. Sometime in the past year, the gold parent was killed (or the scroll burnt, not sure). So now I have two gold dragons with deceased parents. yeah it makes the lineage look "faked" when it in fact is NOT faked. However, the golds are oppositely gendered (I lucked out since it was long before influence was around). Since you can no longer tell that they were in fact twin siblings, I am now free to breed them together without the stigma of "inbreeding" if I ever want to. I can still include in any trade ads that the dead dragons were legit CBs.. doesn't mean people would believe me, but who cares.

[tjekan]

While I haven't had bad experiences with people killing my dragon's ancestors (that I know of), I WILL chip in with my opinion about another lineage annoyance--name loss in ancestors. :/

I have this 6th gen, even gen, purebred sunsong: http://dragcave.net/lineage/RXrfd The top quarter of dragons in the lineage all used to have lovely names from the Aetas lineage. Now it looks a lot uglier with random codes times a bajillion. If I might make a suggestion, could lineages keep the ghost names of ancestors, even if those ancestors become unnamed?

 

I know this might become an issue with some lineages then appearing to have two dragons with the same name, but think about it: first of all, there wouldn't REALLY be two dragons with the same name, one'd be unnamed on its page and the other would have the name. If the person with the unnamed dragons returned someday and gave them new names, those new names would replace the old ghost names. Also, in the case of the rarest named dragons (Thuweds and Dorkface, I'm thinking), the chances of those users ever disappearing to let them go to unnamed ghost status is very slim... and even if they did, it should be pretty easy to tell any fakes who might snatch up the name in their absence from the originals.

This would actually be a really nice idea. I don't think it would matter that two dragons might "appear" to have the same name in their lineages... this already happens if one of the dragons has an extra space in its name. The names look different on the dragon's page, but the same on the lineage page. No biggie.

 

I like pretty lineages. I do not like messy lineages. If I want fake gen tinsel that looks pretty then dang it -- THAT is what i want to see.. not the full messy lineage it used to be.

 

Ok, but I like pretty lineages too, not messy ones; and if I want a 4th-gen even-gen tinsel then THAT is what I want to see, not an uneven mess with lopped off tombstones in it.

 

It seems to me that the fairest solution to let both of us have what we want would be to show the full lineage on any dragon born before the time of the ancestor dragon's death, and the hidden lineage on any dragon born after that. There'd really be no logic behind that at all other than "this would probably mess people's dragons up the least," though. There's no logical reason whatsoever why a dragon's pedigree would vanish into the ether once any of his ancestors die.

Edited November 14, 2011 by tjekan