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TJ09

2011-10-31 - Happy Halloween

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Everybody has the right to like or to dislike any sprite in the game. In no way did I intend to infringe on that right.

 

The issue here is not, "do you have a right to hold an opinion" or even "do you have a right to express your opinion?" It is "Will expressing your opinion do more good than harm, or vice-versa?" and "if expressing your opinion does more harm than good, is it really necessary to express it in the first place?"

 

 

 

The reason to make constructive criticism about a sprite that has already been released has nothing to do with effecting change in that sprite. As you note, it's been released. It's done. The reason has everything to do with providing useful feedback to the artist that they can take into account when hopefully doing their NEXT sprite.

 

If all you're doing is saying "meh, I don't like it," that's not providing any useful feedback. It's just being negative.

Yes it's necessary to express your opinions. It's human nature to do so whether it's negative or not. People should not get offended if someone states that they don't like something. It's rather disappointing that people are too afraid to state this on the forums for fear of getting bashed by people.

 

Since none of the artists have expressed hearing interest in what is wrong with the sprite, nor can I tell how old it is, I still don't see a reason for pointing out the flaws. maybe the artists don't see any flaws. There are times when pointing out these flaws to people who can't see them is pointless, namely when pointing them out to the artists. If they can't see it then there's nothing wrong about the sprite in their eyes and they will never see anything wrong until they advance.

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Hhmm, maybe I'm the odd one out. However, to me it's clear that the tails bends and goes behind the dragon. I guess it's like all art, we all see things slightly differently.

You aren't the only one. That is how I saw it and couldn't figure out what other folks were seeing as a fault.

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It is unnecessary to attempt to turn this topic into a debate.

 

Opinions are allowed.

 

Reminder when giving that opinion:

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?act=boardrules

Use Constructive Criticism

When someone posts their art or other types of creation, they generally do not want it insulted or put down.

If you do not like a work, post how you feel it could be better; Offer suggestions for improvement, but do not insult the creative works of others.

 

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Wow, the Shadow Walkers look amazing. ohmy.gif

Glad I grabbed 5 when I could.

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Love the adult Shadow walkers, happy that i have four ^^ Can't wait for them to grow up.

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6/7 of mine just gendered male.

 

Not too happy about that...wish I'd had more influences. dry.gif

I grabbed 4 and they all gendered male. mad.gif It's my own fault though. I should have influenced them.

 

As to the great debate, I'm not a a spriter, but I am do make my living as a fantasy illustrator. Artist put their heart and sole into their creations, and I applaud any artist willing to put their creation up to public scrutiny!

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I guess I'll go ahead and do it since no one else is willing to. In white for the people who don't want to read it:

 

Anatomy- the only think I am okay at so it comes first starting with the head:

Adult:

-Someone mentioned the sprite looks like its head is nearly twisted off. This it probably because there is no abdominal or keel line going from the chin to the chest. It gives the whole neck the rubber hose look that the hollies have. An indication of this line and some muscles would help it greatly.

-The head looks rather small for the neck and body size.

I don't know what is on the dragon's head, is it frills or hair? It doesn't follow along the spine and instead looks stuck to the side of the neck. The hair/frills would not be visible except near the head.

- The chest protrudes way too much. I see the far leg poking out in the same area, but it shouldn't unless the dragon is turning slightly forward. The rest of the body gives no indication of this though.

-Is the dragon turning slightly forward? The body pose suggest it's a complete profile but the foot placement has the near front leg resting on a different plane than the near back leg. Maybe this is why the chest protrudes too much. The dragon would really benefit not having its chest turned slightly because it throws the whole upper area off from the rest of the body.

- The dragon appears to have a human shoulder instead of having the deltoids attach near the collar bone where quadrupedal animals have them attached. The bump of a shoulder does not appear natural on an animal that walks on all fours.

- There seems to be very little room for a rib cage and belly with the back legs so close to the front. the back legs seem rather stiff and the back feet rather club like. They are completely different from the delicate front legs which I actually think fits the dragon better.

- The tail, as people have mentioned, is straight and the same thickness until the tip of the tail. Some variation of thickness and curve would help.

- The wing shoulder and arm look noodly and almost structureless. They seemed to be forced into a small area there there is a nice large space for them to fill. Extending them out a bit would help fill that space, give them a bit more room and allow the second wing to show through.

- I don't know what the mist is on the dragon. Is it part of the dragon or does it make it? It looks rushed and slapped on. I really think the dragon would benefit not having it or have it trailing behind the legs and partly near the back like it's emerging from the shadows. Right now it just obscures random parts of the dragon and makes it difficult to enjoy because I can't see it.

S2 Hatchling:

The wings contradict the adult's wings. The hatchling's wings seem almost fabric like while the adult's clearly show wing fingers. Since this is an actual physical dragon the hatchling would need wing fingers despite it looking nice on the hatchling.

-There seems to be a thin/thickness issue around the neck, especially at the back of the head.

- The chest again protrudes oddly out.

- The legs seem to be slightly noodly and could use more solid structure. I can't even tell what the far front leg is doing.

-The fat back legs look fine, I just which both were on the ground. The dragon is standing on one leg which really doesn't look natural and might look like it's going to fall on the face.

Sprite wise:

I am not good at spriting so I can only pick out a few things-

- The shading looks pillow shaded. I am not sure if the dragon is supposed to be glowing but I don't think it's really needed for the dragon. The transparency on it more than makes up for it to need to be glowing.

-I am seeing a lot of jagged lines, especially on the adult.

- I also have no problem with the S1.

 

Over all I like the dragon concept but not the sprite. I like both artist's works and I really think they are capable of much better, which makes me think this sprite is just old. I really like the egg hatching sequence and the S1. It just seems the S2 and especially the adult were rushed. I am still fighting on what I want to name my dragons since I don't know what to think of them. they have temporary names for now, but I think I might just change them so being unnamed.

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I love these so much smile.gif I love how they're spooky in an elegant kind of way.

 

Out of curiousity, does anyone know what the going rate for them is in trades? It seems lots of people (including myself) are offering some up for other rares and I'm curious how successful they are (I'm wondering both for the sake of predicting my success, and for curiousity about the market dynamics of dragon cave smile.gif )

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The tail bends and goes behind the dragon =( It's unfortunate that it's reading differently then what was intended. I do see what you all are referring to, however I'm uncertain if it's too late or not since it's already released.

Oooooooh. See, that's funny. I've had no idea what others were seeing. Now that you point out the difference in reading, I get it, but I still can't see it. x3

 

I think you and Fi did a superb job, Naka. The only thing I'm disappointed in is that these are limited edition and not available year round. <3

 

(And if you or Fi really want to fix anything, you could PM TJ with fixes and see if he'll update the sprites. Never hurts, and if you don't want to make changes before knowing if they'll be updated or not, you could ask TJ if he'd do an update. ^^ )

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I guess I'll go ahead and do it since no one else is willing to. In white for the people who don't want to read it:

 

Anatomy- the only think I am okay at so it comes first starting with the head:

Adult:

-Someone mentioned the sprite looks like its head is nearly twisted off. This it probably because there is no abdominal or keel line going from the chin to the chest. It gives the whole neck the rubber hose look that the hollies have. An indication of this line and some muscles would help it greatly.

-The head looks rather small for the neck and body size.

I don't know what is on the dragon's head, is it frills or hair? It doesn't follow along the spine and instead looks stuck to the side of the neck. The hair/frills would not be visible except near the head.

- The chest protrudes way too much. I see the far leg poking out in the same area, but it shouldn't unless the dragon is turning slightly forward. The rest of the body gives no indication of this though.

-Is the dragon turning slightly forward? The body pose suggest it's a complete profile but the foot placement has the near front leg resting on a different plane than the near back leg. Maybe this is why the chest protrudes too much. The dragon would really benefit not having its chest turned slightly because it throws the whole upper area off from the rest of the body.

- The dragon appears to have a human shoulder instead of having the deltoids attach near the collar bone where quadrupedal animals have them attached. The bump of a shoulder does not appear natural on an animal that walks on all fours.

- There seems to be very little room for a rib cage and belly with the back legs so close to the front. the back legs seem rather stiff and the back feet rather club like. They are completely different from the delicate front legs which I actually think fits the dragon better.

- The tail, as people have mentioned, is straight and the same thickness until the tip of the tail. Some variation of thickness and curve would help.

- The wing shoulder and arm look noodly and almost structureless. They seemed to be forced into a small area there there is a nice large space for them to fill. Extending them out a bit would help fill that space, give them a bit more room and allow the second wing to show through.

- I don't know what the mist is on the dragon. Is it part of the dragon or does it make it? It looks rushed and slapped on. I really think the dragon would benefit not having it or have it trailing behind the legs and partly near the back like it's emerging from the shadows. Right now it just obscures random parts of the dragon and makes it difficult to enjoy because I can't see it.

S2 Hatchling:

The wings contradict the adult's wings. The hatchling's wings seem almost fabric like while the adult's clearly show wing fingers. Since this is an actual physical dragon the hatchling would need wing fingers despite it looking nice on the hatchling.

-There seems to be a thin/thickness issue around the neck, especially at the back of the head.

- The chest again protrudes oddly out.

- The legs seem to be slightly noodly and could use more solid structure. I can't even tell what the far front leg is doing.

-The fat back legs look fine, I just which both were on the ground. The dragon is standing on one leg which really doesn't look natural and might look like it's going to fall on the face.

Sprite wise:

I am not good at spriting so I can only pick out a few things-

- The shading looks pillow shaded. I am not sure if the dragon is supposed to be glowing but I don't think it's really needed for the dragon. The transparency on it more than makes up for it to need to be glowing.

-I am seeing a lot of jagged lines, especially on the adult.

- I also have no problem with the S1.

 

Over all I like the dragon concept but not the sprite. I like both artist's works and I really think they are capable of much better, which makes me think this sprite is just old. I really like the egg hatching sequence and the S1. It just seems the S2 and especially the adult were rushed. I am still fighting on what I want to name my dragons since I don't know what  to think of them. they have temporary names for now, but I think I might just change them so being unnamed.

I somehow feel bad for saying this, but I have to agree with you Wookieinmashoo. In spite of it all I still love the sprites and the whole concept of this dragon. This dragon has so much potential and maybe there is a chance to fix the small errors and let this dragon bloom into it's full potential. smile.gif

Edited by Naisma

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Has the female grown up yet? Because I'm still seeing the hatchling sprite and it's been like three days since the male grew up.

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Has the female grown up yet? Because I'm still seeing the hatchling sprite and it's been like three days since the male grew up.

TJ froze the female hatchi. wink.gif This breed does not have dismorphism, so the different genders share the same sprite.

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TJ froze the female hatchi. wink.gif This breed does not have dismorphism, so the different genders share the same sprite.

Ah, gotcha. Thanks for telling me!

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This breed does not have dismorphism, so the different genders share the same sprite.

That is a bit of a disappointment considering the general move towards different sprites for each gender.

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Debate is done guys. I'm glad some like the dragons, and it's unfortunate that others don't. I'm glad that there are at least pumpkins and marrows to fulfill the Halloween event this year.

Edited by Nakase

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That is a bit of a disappointment considering the general move towards different sprites for each gender.

I'm pretty new to Dragon Cave, but I have two DC-addicted dragon tamers living with me and they meant that there seems to be a pattern for the Halloween dragons:

 

2008: two different adult sprites

2009: one adult sprite

2010: two different adult sprites

2011: one adult sprite.

 

I don't know if it's true but it might well be.

 

 

Debate is done guys. I'm glad some like the dragons, and it's unfortunate that others don't. I'm glad that there are at least pumpkins and marrows to fulfill the Halloween event this year.

Nooo, please don't say it like that! sad.gif I love the sprites with all their perfections and imperfections. laugh.gif

Edited by Naisma

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Oh Please...its a DRAGON GHOST!!ALL the brreds have unique looks to them...if you dont LIKE it,well... wink.gif remember the FRILL??? And the old PINKS??? Long gone 'cause of complaints that artist took hard!

I accept this lovely EXACTLY as is(its HERE,so..not sending it BACK)!

I saw this...maybe people should give a thought...

On DC, as in real life, it seems that some people don't understand the difference between constructive and destructive criticism.

 

"I don't like it"/"I was disappointed"/"this sucks" are all examples of destructive criticism.  They do nothing to inform the artist of what he or she can do to improve (if, indeed, they even WANT to improve.  Just because you hate it doesn't mean it isn't EXACTLY what the artist intended.  Art's subjective).  They serve only to hurt feelings and drive wedges between people.

 

"I would like it better if..." is constructive criticism.  You're not condemning the work, but sharing your thoughts about how it could be even better.  The artist may still not agree with you, but they are unlikely to take offense or get hurt feelings about it. 

 

If you're uncertain into which category your comment falls, perhaps you ought to take an extra minute, sit back, and think about it some more.  When in doubt, keep it to yourself.  Just because you have a right to an opinion doesn't always make it the right thing to share it.  This attitude that "they're artists,  they need to have thick skins and absorb whatever abuse we hurl at them" is unkind at best.

I dont find anything to pick on...its rather a ..nasty thing to do when we have this great event draggie,& all people do is wanna dissect the way it was drawn!! mad.gif

Either talk via other means(re: THIS)or accept & respect the time,imagination & talent it took to do this entire dragon...LOTS of other breeds are more,ermmmm...simplistic *YAWN,but I dont complain,Im grateful to have them in cave!! xd.png

Rockin' On

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Around 11 hours until our Hatchlings start growing up. It would be nice to be able to keep this topic open.

 

Please do not attack members for their opinion.

Members posting their opinions, please be constructive.

 

Edit to add: Just because members voice their opinions for or against a dragon does not mean you should fear the dragon being discontinued.

Edited by _Z_

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(And if you or Fi really want to fix anything, you could PM TJ with fixes and see if he'll update the sprites. Never hurts, and if you don't want to make changes before knowing if they'll be updated or not, you could ask TJ if he'd do an update. ^^ )

Didn't the ST. Valentine dragons get updated? I see no reason that these coudn't follow suit.

 

Oh Please...its a DRAGON GHOST!!ALL the brreds have unique looks to them...if you dont LIKE it,well... wink.gif remember the FRILL??? And the old PINKS??? Long gone 'cause of complaints that artist took hard!

I accept this lovely EXACTLY as is(its HERE,so..not sending it BACK)!

I saw this...maybe people should give a thought...

 

Er- Pale pinks are the replacement for bright pinks, are they not? Aren't they by the same spriter, who just wanted to update the breed? The frills were apparently a real... questionable event. I won't go into that. I wasn't here, after all. blink.gif

 

Like I said, I think these are creative. I like them. They're not my favorite, though.

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Debate is done guys. I'm glad some like the dragons, and it's unfortunate that others don't. I'm glad that there are at least pumpkins and marrows to fulfill the Halloween event this year.

I remember that Dove and Seiss were criticised for their Marrows too. Especially for the female sprite, because she still had black lines on her tail, neck ...etc.

People still loved the sprites. wink.gif

 

Nothing is perfect and lovely imperfections add to their very own charm. The irony lies in the fact that it's indisputable, beauty is found in imperfections.

 

Me personally absolutely love the sprites. I could't wait for them to hatch, then I got impatient when they didn't gender fast enough and now I feel like I'm on pins and needles because they will start to become adults in about 11 hours.

 

Does that sound like they don't fulfill the Halloween event? Look at all those "OMG-I-absolutely-love-those-sprites" comments. So many users are all aflutter because of your and Fiona's wonderful sprites.

 

Please don't take the criticism personally. I think the people see the beauty of this dragon and just want to help to make it even better. I know how it is to get your art criticised, which helds so much work, emotions and parts of you. You and Fiona really did a great job on these dragons, try to always keep that in mind. smile.gif

 

greez Nya

 

[EDIT] fixing my very own typo imperfections. wink.gif

Edited by Nyastara

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I like the shadow walker sprites- it reminds me of a dragon stepping out of a fog with mist clinging to it more than a ghost per-say, but that's why it's shadow walker, rather than phantom.

 

My only criticism is the tail and shading- the tail is held rigid most of its length, but the turn at the end seems a bit sudden and baffles my sense of light and shading.

 

From what I can tell the light is meant to come from above the viewer's head and to their right- but where in that range is hard to tell. The body shading would indicate a more horizontal light, but the tail and wings indicate a more vertical light, unless the tail is turned at an odd angle between horizontal and vertical. It's a small detail, but I think it makes the tail look awkward.

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