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prairiecrow

Should artists and writers work for free?

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Ok, here's another question.

Should I stop volunteering at a hospital?

 

Because it meets your criterias for not working for free if you're an artist. After all, somebody makes money from it, just not you.

 

 

 

As a side note, I hope you're not being hostile at anyone here.

That depends. Are you an "unskilled" volunteer at the hospital or do you have a certain skill set and/or training which the market places a value on that could, should, and would earn you a salary at a different hospital?

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Do you volunteer out of your own free will because you believe it is the right thing to do or you believe it is a good opportunity to hone your skills, or do you 'volunteer' because the only way you believed you could ever hope, in the future, to get paid for your hard work is if you volunteered now and maybe for a some indistinct time in the future, and established a name that the hospital would respect? Do you have a paying job now (or are a full-time student), or are you buying your groceries with other people's ephemeral promises of future vast wealth if you would only volunteer now? Without knowing which it is, it's hard to advise you on whether or not you should do it.

 

To place it in your arguments: Doctors are nothing special, though their work may very well be. How would anyone know if the doctor's work was any good unless they demonstrated it by working for free? Why should a doctor expect anyone to pay a nobody like them if they are unknown? Once hospitals are coming to the doctor for their work, then and only then can a doctor have the arrogance to state that their work is "professional grade" and worth paying for.

I'm a full time student. I'm doing it because it has the possibility of helping me get into med school. In addition, if I do well, and establish myself as a hard working young man, the hospital might say, "hey, I remember this kid, yea, let him intern and do his residency here."

 

A doctor proves his capabalities through 8 years + of schooling, and volunteering at hospitals during that schooling to show that they are capable of thriving in that high-stress environment. Then, if that wasn't enough, they go through internships and residencies. Yes, they get paid during this time, but they weren't for the 8 years before.

 

I wouldn't say I'm "Unskilled", I have a degree in biology and I'm trained in CPR.

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I'm a full time student. I'm doing it because it has the possibility of helping me get into med school. In addition, if I do well, and establish myself as a hard working young man, the hospital might say, "hey, I remember this kid, yea, let him intern and do his residency here."

Sounds like in a sense, you're journeyman hopeful.

 

A doctor proves his capabalities through 8 years + of schooling, and volunteering at hospitals during that schooling to show that they are capable of thriving in that high-stress environment. Then, if that wasn't enough, they go through internships and residencies. Yes, they get paid during this time, but they weren't for the 8 years before.

 

Artists without degrees very likely have far more than eight years of experience learning in their field. More like a lifetime. Artists with degrees also have schooling as well as demonstrations of their skill in whatever form their thesis-equivalent took.

 

So why again should doctors be paid for their work but artists should provide it for free?

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So why again should doctors be paid for their work but artists should provide it for free?

Because art isn't really work, silly! tongue.gif It's just pushing a pencil around on paper! Any thirteen year old can do that!

 

[/sarcasm]

 

Allow me to share a story from my relatively early career as an artist. I used to buy a dealers table at the local sci-fi convention and spend the weekend doing custom name tags at $10/pop (yeah, this was back in the 80's). At one con a woman came up to me and commissioned a custom badge, which I told her would be done in an hour. It turned out to be a slow hour customer-wise and I got the art piece finished in a little over thirty minutes.

 

Well, who should come by early but the client? (Let's call her The Commissioner.) The Commissioner was surprised that I'd finished the badge for her -- and offered me $5 for it. When I raised an eyebrow, she explained that since it had only taken me half an hour she should only pay half the agreed-upon fee.

 

Whereupon I explained to her that what she was paying for was my materials, my expertise, and all the years I'd spent honing my craft -- and that the price of the badge had just gone up to $15.

 

The Commissioner emitted a squawk that would have done a macaw proud and blustered that I wasn't being fair. I retorted that she'd just tried to stiff me for half the agreed-upon fee, that her name wasn't on the badge yet (and that therefore it could be sold to someone else who fancied it) -- and the price had now gone up to $20.

 

She paid it, and hopefully learned a lesson about trying to mess with a professional craftsman. Yes, I was harsh with her, but I have no patience with people who treat artists as lowly peons they can order about.

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I didn't read the above posts, so I'll just reply to the topic.

 

IMO. Artists and writers should get paid depending on their choice. I don't think it should be anyone else's choice besides the creator of that so said article, book or picture. It is their choice if they want to gift their work or actually sell. Now maybe I didn't understand the topic but that's what I interpreted...

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Prairie, you have all of my respect. All of it. I probably would have tried holding to $10 despite being disrespected like that and maybe even caved in the end just because of how much I hate arguing in public. More people need to have as much spine as that, myself included. I'll insist on still getting paid, but that's about it >_<

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Because art isn't really work, silly! tongue.gif It's just pushing a pencil around on paper! Any thirteen year old can do that!

 

[/sarcasm]

 

Allow me to share a story from my relatively early career as an artist. I used to buy a dealers table at the local sci-fi convention and spend the weekend doing custom name tags at $10/pop (yeah, this was back in the 80's). At one con a woman came up to me and commissioned a custom badge, which I told her would be done in an hour. It turned out to be a slow hour customer-wise and I got the art piece finished in a little over thirty minutes.

 

Well, who should come by early but the client? (Let's call her The Commissioner.) The Commissioner was surprised that I'd finished the badge for her -- and offered me $5 for it. When I raised an eyebrow, she explained that since it had only taken me half an hour she should only pay half the agreed-upon fee.

 

Whereupon I explained to her that what she was paying for was my materials, my expertise, and all the years I'd spent honing my craft -- and that the price of the badge had just gone up to $15.

 

The Commissioner emitted a squawk that would have done a macaw proud and blustered that I wasn't being fair. I retorted that she'd just tried to stiff me for half the agreed-upon fee, that her name wasn't on the badge yet (and that therefore it could be sold to someone else who fancied it) -- and the price had now gone up to $20.

 

She paid it, and hopefully learned a lesson about trying to mess with a professional craftsman. Yes, I was harsh with her, but I have no patience with people who treat artists as lowly peons they can order about.

The sad part is, plenty of people out there seriously think that way. Of course, if it was so easy... Why the heck do they need to pay anybody anyway, why can't they do it themselves? tongue.gif <---aimed at all the idiots that use this reasoning

 

 

 

And that is an amazing story. Good for you, that was awesome!

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Sounds like in a sense, you're journeyman hopeful.

 

 

 

Artists without degrees very likely have far more than eight years of experience learning in their field. More like a lifetime. Artists with degrees also have schooling as well as demonstrations of their skill in whatever form their thesis-equivalent took.

 

So why again should doctors be paid for their work but artists should provide it for free?

Where did I say artists, especially those with qualifications, should not be paid? I said that in a field where reputation is just as important as skill, if not more-so, why is it such a problem for an artist to do work that might advance their career if all else has failed? I don't see working for free as wasting your time for a greedy prick, (although I agree there are plenty of situations where it's exactly that) I see it as a potential opportunity to advertise your works without paying somebody else.

 

Additionally, you didn't answer my question, should I be working for free under your guidelines? That of if my boss is profitting, I shouldn't work for them for free?

 

In addition, doctors also have $200,000 or more in loans.

 

Ok, another hypothetical that wouldn't allow you to work for free under those guidelines:

You apply for a job with a studio producing a movie.

You get declined, them saying they just don't have it in the budget.

Instead, they offer for you to work with them, and will give you a reccomendation and your name in the credits if you help out on the project part-time, maybe 2-3 hours a week for the next few months.

Do you take the job?

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Where did I say artists, especially those with qualifications, should not be paid? I said that in a field where reputation is just as important as skill, if not more-so, why is it such a problem for an artist to do work that might advance their career if all else has failed? I don't see working for free as wasting your time for a greedy prick, (although I agree there are plenty of situations where it's exactly that) I see it as a potential opportunity to advertise your works without paying somebody else.

That's kind of what you've been saying all along, that the only time artists ought be paid is after they are well known. I really do think that a skilled artist who cannot advance their career through paid work is not cut out to be a professional artist.

 

Additionally, you didn't answer my question, should I be working for free under your guidelines? That of if my boss is profitting, I shouldn't work for them for free?

 

I thought I had, must have erased it. It sounded like what you are doing, as a student, is mostly to become better skilled, and since you are doing so voluntarily, not because someone scammed you, do as you like, I've got no issue with volunteerism.

 

In addition, doctors also have $200,000 or more in loans.

 

Completely irrelevant. How much debt one goes into does not change how much one's work is worth.

 

Ok, another hypothetical that wouldn't allow you to work for free under those guidelines:

You apply for a job with a studio producing a movie.

You get declined, them saying they just don't have it in the budget.

Instead, they offer for you to work with them, and will give you a reccomendation and your name in the credits if you help out on the project part-time, maybe 2-3 hours a week for the next few months.

Do you take the job?

 

Absolutely not. At best it wouldn't be a production that made it off of their parent's VCRs, at worst they're trying to scam for free art.

Edited by Princess Artemis

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That's kind of what you've been saying all along, that the only time artists ought be paid is after they are well known. I really do think that a skilled artist who cannot advance their career through paid work is not cut out to be a professional artist.

So from what I gather, you're saying that a "real" artist shouldn't have problems finding a paying job/commission/whathaveyou. If that's the case, then what some people are saying, such as it devalues the work of other artists, is kind of BS.

 

I'm not saying that unknown un/skilled artists don't deserve to be paid. Nowhere did I say that. All I've said was that people should be open to working on something for free if they think it will advance their careers.

 

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You read too much into it. I am a "real" artist, a skilled artist, and an educated artist, but I don't think I have what it takes to be a professional, working artist. That's not because I think artists should be paid for the work they do.

 

"Open to working for free" is quite a different thing from "But yea, why would they pay you? You're not special, even though your work might be." How is one to read that if it isn't "some artists don't deserve to be paid"?

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So from what I gather, you're saying that a "real" artist shouldn't have problems finding a paying job/commission/whathaveyou. If that's the case, then what some people are saying, such as it devalues the work of other artists, is kind of BS.

 

A good artist with any sense of a business mind can and will find work they will get paid for. If they can't find work and the only way anyone will take their work is through giving it away, they obviously need to polish up. Even I can get the odd commission and I've never even considered a formal education in my craft.

 

All I've said was that people should be open to working on something for free if they think it will advance their careers.

 

Such as art contests, and genuine charity work, or if the artist offers the company the work, but if the 'employer' comes to the artist and says "hey will you work for me for free and all I'll do is put your name in the credits even though I'm making money"...No. Just no.

 

That's a negative reputation other 'employers' can and will feed off of to make sure that artist is never paid.

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This discussion is very interesting. I'm not really that great of an artist, but I have sold some of my work before. People seem to like what I've done so far, so I see no reason not to use that to my advantage. However, if I WAS to want to do this as a career (one such girl who takes art from the same teacher I do is the best selling artist in a local gallery, with pieces selling for 1000s and up.) I wouldn't have a problem making a donation or some such thing as a way to get my name out there. Should an artist WORK for free? No?? Why on earth would they? It's a profession that takes years of work to master, why should they hand out a piece that took many many hours to create? All that bull about "you should keep doing this for good exposure" is ridiculous. You really don't need "exposure" to get started. There are plenty of local galleries, around here at least, who take a VERY reasonable commission for space, and the artists who choose to place their work there sell very very well. I'm a 16 year old unknown artist from a little East Tennessee city, if I can sell stuff I don't see why anyone couldn't do it. I never had to give my stuff away before people were interested in it.

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Did you get paid for that art gallery in phoenix? Because they probably make money from admissions or whatever. You didn't exactly give us a lot of information.

You seem to be missing the point here.

 

No, I don't get paid for putting my paintings in that gallery. I am putting them there because I *want* to, it's a way for me to get exposure, I like the gallery and know the organization that runs it. It's my own decision and I was the one to initiate this.

 

Which is *completely* different from a business trying to scam artists by wanting them to work, put in hours and time and materials, for free. Completely different.

 

I made my paintings by myself, with no direction or rules from any business. I decided, on my own, that I wanted to pursue getting them into that gallery. No one pushed me to do it or tried to take advantage of me by saying "okay, make this and this and this, and we will take those and make money off of them but you don't get any of that money". No one did that. So it is *completely* different then what you are saying.

 

Artists can, and should, decide for themselves what type of exposure they want to aim for, and how to go about getting that.

 

Other people should NOT take advantage of an "unknown" artist by *hiring them to work* for free. You (general "you") hire someone to spend time, possibly weeks, making something for you, using their own materials, possibly spending their own money, and *you* are going to benefit from this, and yet you don't pay them? That's crap.

Edited by Marie19R

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I freaking hate the idea that artists should work for free. It is work, it takes effort, and that should be respected. (Not saying that "no one should ever ever ever consider working for free", just that it shouldn't be expected.)

 

And Princess Artemis and KageSora have already summed up my thoughts on the subject, and better than I could, so I'm gonna just point to their posts and say "Yeah. This."

 

Allow me to share a story from my relatively early career as an artist. I used to buy a dealers table at the local sci-fi convention and spend the weekend doing custom name tags at $10/pop (yeah, this was back in the 80's). At one con a woman came up to me and commissioned a custom badge, which I told her would be done in an hour. It turned out to be a slow hour customer-wise and I got the art piece finished in a little over thirty minutes.

 

Well, who should come by early but the client? (Let's call her The Commissioner.) The Commissioner was surprised that I'd finished the badge for her -- and offered me $5 for it. When I raised an eyebrow, she explained that since it had only taken me half an hour she should only pay half the agreed-upon fee.

 

Whereupon I explained to her that what she was paying for was my materials, my expertise, and all the years I'd spent honing my craft -- and that the price of the badge had just gone up to $15.

 

The Commissioner emitted a squawk that would have done a macaw proud and blustered that I wasn't being fair. I retorted that she'd just tried to stiff me for half the agreed-upon fee, that her name wasn't on the badge yet (and that therefore it could be sold to someone else who fancied it) -- and the price had now gone up to $20.

 

She paid it, and hopefully learned a lesson about trying to mess with a professional craftsman. Yes, I was harsh with her, but I have no patience with people who treat artists as lowly peons they can order about.

That is just awesome. laugh.giflaugh.giflaugh.gif

 

Honestly, if I commissioned a piece and it was finished in half the agreed upon time, I'd seriously consider paying extra for it. WTF was wrong with that woman?

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That is just awesome.  laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif

 

Honestly, if I commissioned a piece and it was finished in half the agreed upon time, I'd seriously consider paying extra for it. WTF was wrong with that woman?

What was wrong with her was that she thought she had me over a barrel and that I'd be humbly grateful for any pennies she condescended to throw my way. Heh. She had no idea what hit her.

 

My philosophy with paying clients (especially in the industry I'm in) is that I will do everything I can for them within reason, depending on what they're paying me. I do the same quality of work whether they're paying at the top or the bottom of industry scale for a particular type of project, but the number of "goodies" they get definitely varies. For example, someone paying me $100/page gets revisions and corrections at no charge; someone paying me half that gets charged for changes made after the page is finished. I'm very clear about this and try my level best to make any additional charges reasonable.

 

A commercial artist has to walk a fine line between being diplomatic and not taking any guff. If they're not, they don't last long or get a reputation as being difficult to work with, which hampers their ability to find paying jobs. As a rule commercial artists have to know how to sell themselves as well as their product. This is something that not all artists have the temperament to do, which is why some very talented artists have no future in the commercial art industry.

Edited by prairiecrow

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Personally, I love art in various forms. Art, music, theatre... But I think artists and writers should be wary of scams, but ultimately it's their choice what to do with a potential scam. And for pay, artists and writers should make what people will pay for. If your art won't sell, no one should have to buy it. And if you make a piece or write a script that will sell for millions, do it. If you can make a successful carrerr out of it, then power to you.

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Do mechanics work for free? Do doctors work for free?

Then why would people expect artists and writers to work for free?

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Do mechanics work for free? Do doctors work for free?

Then why would people expect artists and writers to work for free?

Because "it's so easy my 13 year old niece could do it!" or "I don't get why you want me to pay you for doing something you love. That's all the payment you need!" or "You're not known enough to deserve actual money, but by doing this project to make me tons of money, you'll get a reputation and can put it in your portfolio and maybe someday in the future somebody might decided they want to pay you something!"

 

 

 

Which is seriously how some people think... :<

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Because "it's so easy my 13 year old niece could do it!" or "I don't get why you want me to pay you for doing something you love. That's all the payment you need!" or "You're not known enough to deserve actual money, but by doing this project to make me tons of money, you'll get a reputation and can put it in your portfolio and maybe someday in the future somebody might decided they want to pay you something!"

 

 

 

Which is seriously how some people think... :<

Oh believe me, I know. So turn right around and go "So why are nurses paid? They're doing what they love, right? They aren't doctors, so it's not like they have any special skills, right? They're not famous, they are just like basically maids who take your temperature, right? They shouldn't get paid either. They should do that for free."

 

This BS has only stopped since I graduated college and started working in a tattoo shop. Finally people are acting like paying me for my work is acceptable.

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I saw a quote that said, "If you do something well, you should never do it for free!"

I believe this, because I think that it's disrespectful to the person's time and energy spent on rendering services to expect them to not make a living doing whatever it is that they do. Give and take should be equal.

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Oh believe me, I know. So turn right around and go "So why are nurses paid? They're doing what they love, right? They aren't doctors, so it's not like they have any special skills, right? They're not famous, they are just like basically maids who take your temperature, right? They shouldn't get paid either. They should do that for free."

 

This BS has only stopped since I graduated college and started working in a tattoo shop. Finally people are acting like paying me for my work is acceptable.

<3 tattoo art. I wish I could do it, and it's definitely worth paying for.

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It constantly amazes me that non-creative individuals seem to think that they can get free stuff out of us, when they wouldn't consider asking their plumber to work for free or their grocery store to give them free food in exchange for good word of mouth.

Actually, in this economy, a lot of service providers are indeed going around offering free services in hopes of reaping future benefits.

 

I think the difference here is "self-employment" versus "employed by someone else," not "creative" versus "non-creative." A grocery store clerk isn't going to give you free food because that is not how he or she stays employed, but a caterer did come to our office building this year and bring free lunch for everyone, presumably hoping to pick up new business for his small business that way. By the same token, I wouldn't expect a graphic designer employed by a magazine to do extra artwork for free, but it wouldn't surprise me to find a freelance artist doing it, with the expectation that it will bring them more money in the long run.

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Actually, in this economy, a lot of service providers are indeed going around offering free services in hopes of reaping future benefits.

 

I think the difference here is "self-employment" versus "employed by someone else," not "creative" versus "non-creative." A grocery store clerk isn't going to give you free food because that is not how he or she stays employed, but a caterer did come to our office building this year and bring free lunch for everyone, presumably hoping to pick up new business for his small business that way. By the same token, I wouldn't expect a graphic designer employed by a magazine to do extra artwork for free, but it wouldn't surprise me to find a freelance artist doing it, with the expectation that it will bring them more money in the long run.

The thing is, there's a difference between "Hi, I'd like to offer you my services free of charge, because I'd like to build a reputation for my work" and "Hey, you like to do art-stuff, right? So, here's the deal--you make me all this awesome work, and the project will get a ton of money! Your payment will be us being gracious enough to attach your name to it, so that maybe some day other people might consider hiring you!" or "Why the hell should I pay you? You get all the payment you need out of just liking what you do/it's so easy my -insert somebody who really can't do that level of work here- could do it, and xe'd do it for free!"

 

 

And in some cases it IS 'creative vs non-creative' because people honestly do wonder why they're paying somebody to "draw a few circles' or that it will honestly take them like 20 minutes. In these instances, it's likely because they're not the kind who do creative works so they don't realize that even if the finished product looks simple to make, there's actually a ton of work that goes into it. What looks like it could be done in 20 minutes might actually have taken 5 hours to make.

 

 

There's a site, won't actually link it since some of the content is just a bit over what's allowed here, but it's a collection of horror stories mostly in the web/graphics design area, and some of the things people say... You'd be amazed at how much they try to rip people off. Or they just don't understand how much work actually goes into this kind of stuff.

 

Really, if you have no experience with it personally, it seems like it's hard to grasp that it really did take hours of work to produce a fairly simple-looking work.

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