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So then god is not omniscient then? And the notion god wouldn't hate you for being homosexual is kinda confusing as you put it. In the bible it even says that this is detestable to the lord. Yes god can love the sinner and hate the sin but even if god does love them, he'll send you to hell for being it? This is one of the things that confuses me. How can god say he loves you but because of this you get sent to hell to be tortured forever?

(I don't really need a sermon on christianity and it's values/beliefs there off. I went to church for 16 years of my life. I know the verses/stories/etc. I'm more or less looking for YOUR views on this. (Didn't get these at my church at all. They would just ship me to another pastor, a bible passage, etc if I had a question.))

 

 

And I'm going to pull this back up from a while back on the choices we are "given" (aka free will)

 

The objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.

Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

  It is also written that I was given free will with which to choose if I will go to hell or not.  How can you possibly deem something free when you must fear consequences?  That completely conflicts with the definition of free.  If I were to hold a gun to your head and say “you have free will to not give me your wallet, but if you attempt to defy me I will kill you.”  Does it really feel as if you have a choice in the matter?  Of course not.  Free means to give or receive something without an expectation of return.  The whole free will concept is self-defeating.

All you have to do is believe that Jesus died for us and he came bac. Everyone sins. He won't send you to hell for sinning. He loves you and he will forgive it. You can be homosexual and still go to heaven if you were to believe in Jesus.

 

Next, the free will thing is not what you are saying it is. It allows you to choose whether or not to make the right choice, all will have a consequence, some good some bad.

Edited by solarflare3000

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On animals,  while they have emotion to some extent, any surge of emotion is very short lived. If an animal,  like a cat,  we're together lose its child, it would feel the pain of loss,  but only for a short time.  If it were to happen to a human parent, the loss of her child would be more permanent.

 

Just coming here to say that is not true. Have you ever heard stories of animals (more specifically dogs) who stay at their dead owners grave, and other humans have to feed them because they wont move?

 

And some animals like Elephants go in to a state like panic when they loose a loved one, especially a child, some can actually starve themselves to death because they will not move from the dead body.

Edited by AshCola

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Just coming here to say that is not true. Have you ever heard stories of animals (more specifically dogs) who stay at their dead owners grave, and other humans have to feed them because they wont move?

 

And some animals like Elephants go in to a state like panic when they loose a loved one, especially a child, some can actually starve themselves to death because they will not move from the dead body.

This. I have personally seen pets mourn their lost companions for days and weeks.

 

To add to that, there are plenty of human women who literally couldn't care less if their infant died... Sympathy and all those other instincts are part of our genetic code because it was easier to survive as a group, and individuals who work and feel as a group are more beneficial to a group still and thusly have greater chances to survive and reproduce.

Nevertheless, there are plenty of sociopaths around, plenty of people who lack parental instincts or the urge to reproduce and so forth - genetic code replication process is not flawless, and sometimes these functions break. Having or not having empathy is not choice, it is how a person is physically built. The brain is different, it is easily evident from scans, and there is nothing the person can ever do about it. Also, homosexuality is not choice, either.

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I know of many stories of animal couples and I cannot deny them. While I am convinced of animals having emotion to some extent. But most don't have it as much as elephants.

 

Now, let's go beyond emotion and look at basic intelligence. Even the smartest animals are not as smart as humans.

 

Homosexuality is a choice. You may have feelings for a person in your family, but you have the choice to become homosexual or ignore the feelings.

 

Also, while animals have little or no choice to go against nature, humans do.

 

 

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Ehh I'm writing here partly because of boredom and party because I am sick of getting attacked for my beliefs on other websites

 

Now I am a christian

 

I have been pretty much my entire life, however I always like to believe that I am tolerant,

 

If your an atheist, if your a muslim, I might not agree with you but whatever thats your opinion, what drives me insane is when people will either directly or indirectly attack a specific group

 

You know what I'm talking about, those comments that hate on christians or indirectly make fun of them and call them morons

 

or those comments that call all atheists censorkip.gif***s or indirectly paint them all that way

 

*sigh* I never understood it

 

Oh well guess its just human nature

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Okay, so, let me get this right, SolarFlare; being homosexual is a choice in your book, but I have to choose to resist those urges and can still be counted heterosexual? If you have urges towards members of the same-sex, you're a homosexual, whether you act on them or not. A woman may spend her entire life denying her attraction to women, but she is still a lesbian if she is attracted to them. Everything you just said is the direct opposite of how sexuality works.

Edited by PrinceVertigo

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On animals, while they have emotion to some extent, any surge of emotion is very short lived. If an animal, like a cat, we're together lose its child, it would feel the pain of loss, but only for a short time. If it were to happen to a human parent, the loss of her child would be more permanent.

I'm going to argue that that will depend on the animal, more specifically the species. Additionally, until we actually have a way to read the minds of animals, I don't think we can prove that no other species actually feels pain for an extended or permanent period of time after a loss. I mean, a human who loses a person eventually goes on in life and just by interacting with them it's not instantly apparent "I lost somebody very close to me in a tragic and untimely way" for the most part. It could very well be the same with some kinds of animals.

 

Also, God wouldn't hate you for being homosexual. He wouldn't like the choice, but he wouldn't hate you.

 

That, however, is up for debate. There are many Christians who believe the scripture is clear that God hates homosexuals. There are others, however, who believe that God doesn't care one way or another because homosexuality isn't a sin. The problem is your holy book has been translated and retranslated and retranslated and edited so many times over the years that it's hard, if not impossible, to know what the original text said for your average person. That, and you have to realize that most Christians (that are VOCAL about it--the silent majority could very well think differently, but since they're not vocal I dunno much about them, or even if they exist) don't actually take the context in which it was written into account. Such as the societies at the time, the knowledge level at the time, etc. We've learned a lot about the world and humanity since those days, a lot has changed.

 

My mom once told me when I was feeling uncertain once, "It's better to believe and find nothing than to not believe and find out I made a huge mistake."

 

I would actually argue that this is not true belief. You still have that "but it's possible I'm wrong" mentality. God can see into your heart, from what I understand, and if you have the "Well, I'll tell myself He's real because better safe than sorry" that doesn't seem to me like actual, genuine belief. Therefore you'd be more along the lines of those who professed faith with their lips but in their hearts did not truly believe. Those people will be turned away, IIRC.

 

I actually came to the opposite conclusion in regards to that very statement. Rather than lying to myself until I can trick myself into actually believing (which I don't know if that's actually possible for me to do), I'd rather not bother. If I lie to myself about believing in Him, and find out He's real but I'm turned away because I didn't have true faith, all that's done is give me a miserable life afraid of punishment.

 

Homosexuality is a choice. You may have feelings for a person in your family, but you have the choice to become homosexual or ignore the feelings.

...Er, I think you're a little confused. Having feelings for a person in your family would be incest, not homosexuality.

 

Also, no, it's not a choice. You can chose to act on those feelings--just like any straight person can go "Wow, I really want to have sex with this person because they're attractive to me, but I'm not going to". But being homosexual is not, in and of itself, a choice. It is an actual difference in how the brain functions.

 

As an asexual, I'm not just "choosing" to not have sex. I'm literally physically unable to find myself sexually attracted to other people. A homosexual would literally be unable to stop themselves from being attracted to the same sex, like a straight person is unable to stop themselves from being sexually attracted to the opposite sex.

 

The state of being and the attraction are not things that can be chosen or stopped--but like all things they can be chosen to not be acted upon.

 

However, if you're asking a homosexual person to deny their natural attractions and to either forcibly make themselves have sex with a person they are not attracted to or to deny themselves all the wonderful benefits of having a sexual relationship with another person, that's just freakin' cruel. If they themselves opt to become celibate, that is entirely up to them, but there is nothing wrong with embracing their natural attractions and acting on them. (Obviously providing all involved parties are consenting and all).

 

 

Even the smartest animals are not as smart as humans.

 

Define "smart". In many ways there are animals that are vastly more intelligent than humans. It's subjective depending on what it is that you're trying to convey.

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Homosexuality is a choice. You may have feelings for a person in your family, but you have the choice to become homosexual or ignore the feelings.

 

It is most certainly not a choice. It's naturally occurring and fully valid, just like cis hetero feelings are and any other orientation. That's a fact, and I don't know why this "it's a choice" line of thought continues to exist. Care to enlighten me where you get this 'information' from?

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Study has gone into whether or not Dolphins have a language. No, not teaching them language, like Koko and sign language, whether or not the aquatic mammals have their own language. Don't believe me?

 

I'm sure this video could inform you: Through the Wormhole

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My mom once told me when I was feeling uncertain once, "It's better to believe and find nothing than to not believe and find out I made a huge mistake."

I'm sorry to hear you say that. Seems your mum used fear tactics to indoctrinate you.

I don't usually care for what theists do to advertise their beliefs, but the moment they start trying to fear people into them, that's what gets me riled up. It rustles my jimmies, but good.

 

Grandmum used Pascal's Wager on me too, the only problem is that, as I said, I was so alienated by an over-saturated market for gods and potential afterlives, that my mind immediately snapped at the conclusion: even if this risk was real, it wasn't a two-way deal.

 

There are so many religions, and so many religious denominations, each promising that theirs is the 'one true way of reaching god', that no matter how you look at it, no matter how pious one is, there's always a substantial risk of being eternally punished. And just for not being born in the 'right' kind of family and given the 'right' kind of religious upbringing, too. Nobody is born religious, they have to be indoctrinated into it.

 

It honestly makes me angry, how parents and preachers worldwide would willingly resort to instilling fear into people, more-so into young and easily impressionable children, just to propagate their own antiquated hokus pokus.

 

And as for Pascal's Wager, all I have to say is:

If god gave me a brain, then he would have me use it. If he so chooses to judge me and send me to burn for all eternity for using the gift of critical thinking that he has supposedly given me, then I say, have at it. If god's like that, I'd be in hell while in his company.

Edited by Psyduсk

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That's a really good point about the "I should believe, just in case" thing.

 

Multiple religions claim to be the one true path to salvation. So... Do you believe in all of them "just in case"? That doesn't work, though, because you have to only believe in that religion if it's the "One True Religion". So you are basically betting on your "just in case" belief having been placed in the right religion.

 

What happens if you bet wrong?

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All you have to do is believe that Jesus died for us and he came bac. Everyone sins. He won't send you to hell for sinning. He loves you and he will forgive it. You can be homosexual and still go to heaven if you were to believe in Jesus

Which doesn't hold any water for me whatsoever. The notion "you just have to have faith" God has given someone a mind to use and now it’s being asked to be closed when it comes to religion? One has to understand what one is thinking, thinking critically not a bad thing. Usually this is said (You just need to have faith) when someone is stumped, it is more of a cop out.

 

Or to put it more simply from the pastors, people I've talked to, I take it to actually mean: “there’s no answer for that, I just believe it because I like it or it makes me feel good”. imo.

 

Before I go on, beings I'd rather not deal with people PM'ing me. I DO NOT hate any religion or lack of. I HATE that crazy things people do in the name of their religion Not just jihads. I mean taking away human rights for one religion that not everyone believes in. For trying to censor parts of the human body because some religions find it offensive. For not giving proper sex ed. are just a few examples I can name.

 

Yes. I understand everyone sins. I understand no christian or ANYONE can practice what they preach all the time.

 

So what will/why does he send people to hell for? Not accepting him as the only way to righteousness?

 

Not going to touch on the last bit on homosexuals, beings others have asked/explained it better than myself.

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So then god is not omniscient then? And the notion god wouldn't hate you for being homosexual is kinda confusing as you put it. In the bible it even says that this is detestable to the lord. Yes god can love the sinner and hate the sin but even if god does love them, he'll send you to hell for being it? This is one of the things that confuses me. How can god say he loves you but because of this you get sent to hell to be tortured forever?

(I don't really need a sermon on christianity and it's values/beliefs there off. I went to church for 16 years of my life. I know the verses/stories/etc. I'm more or less looking for YOUR views on this. (Didn't get these at my church at all. They would just ship me to another pastor, a bible passage, etc if I had a question.))

In my belief, God is omniscient. God knows the sexual orientation of everyone and loves them just the way they are created. I doubt I will ever understand why some folks fixate negatively on people sharing love, rather than on the more hurtful things like political violence (invasions, genocide) and obsessive greed (stereotypical Wall Street attitudes).

 

And I'm going to pull this back up from a while back on the choices we are "given" (aka free will)

 

The objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.

Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

I believe we all need to have a healthy relationship with our Creator, because if we turn away from the renewing source of life, the little bit of life we claimed for our own will run out. I also believe God created us to have free will and to be interdependent (though I cannot say why, as I do not know God's mind). I think of this world as a sort of classroom where we learn about making choices and receiving consequences, not just that affect us, but that affect others to a degree we do not even realize. Just as a child cannot learn to write sonnets before they learn their ABC's, how to spell, and how to write sentences, I think we cannot learn how to live (spiritually) as God intends until we learn how to make choices, see immediate consequences, and understand the broader ramifications. However, once we learn that, we as an entire society of individuals can choose to work together for much greater goals.

 

It is also written that I was given free will with which to choose if I will go to hell or not.  How can you possibly deem something free when you must fear consequences?  That completely conflicts with the definition of free.  If I were to hold a gun to your head and say “you have free will to not give me your wallet, but if you attempt to defy me I will kill you.”  Does it really feel as if you have a choice in the matter?  Of course not.  Free means to give or receive something without an expectation of return.  The whole free will concept is self-defeating.

The Bible is not all that clear on what specifically happens to us when we die, using analogies and parables to express what we cannot really imagine here. I believe that God deals with each person individually, based on their own experiences and choices. If part of the goal in this life is to develop a healthy relationship with God, and the individual has not, how can they progress to the next stage of development? I trust God to work with the individual for the best solution possible given their situation. Rather than the gun-to-the-head example, I would say it is more like warning a person that jumping off a cliff is likely to kill them, but they can manage to do it if they insist on bypassing the safety measures in place to protect them.

Edited by Awdz Bodkins

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This lady above me is probably as good a christian as it gets. She isn't pushing, hating, or claiming to know things. While I disagree with her faith, I respect the way she runs it. Stay golden, ponyboy Awdz Bodkins; if I had to live around religous people the rest of my life, I'd want them to act like that.

Edited by PrinceVertigo

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In my belief, God is omniscient.  God knows the sexual orientation of everyone and loves them just the way they are created.  I doubt I will ever understand why some folks fixate negatively on people sharing love, rather than on the more hurtful things like political violence (invasions, genocide) and obsessive greed (stereotypical Wall Street attitudes).

 

 

I believe we all need to have a healthy relationship with our Creator, because if we turn away from the renewing source of life, the little bit of life we claimed for our own will run out.  I also believe God created us to have free will and to be interdependent (though I cannot say why, as I do not know God's mind).  I think of this world as a sort of classroom where we learn about making choices and receiving consequences, not just that affect us, but that affect others to a degree we do not even realize. Just as a child cannot learn to write sonnets before they learn their ABC's, how to spell, and how to write sentences, I think we cannot learn how to live (spiritually) as God intends until we learn how to make choices, see immediate consequences, and understand the broader ramifications.  However, once we learn that, we as an entire society of individuals can choose to work together for much greater goals.

 

 

The Bible is not all that clear on what specifically happens to us when we die, using analogies and parables to express what we cannot really imagine here.  I believe that God deals with each person individually, based on their own experiences and choices.  If part of the goal in this life is to develop a healthy relationship with God, and the individual has not, how can they progress to the next stage of development?  I trust God to work with the individual for the best solution possible given their situation.  Rather than the gun-to-the-head example, I would say it is more like warning a person that jumping off a cliff is likely to kill them, but they can manage to do it if they insist on bypassing the safety measures in place to protect them.

As a Christian myself, this was very well said. I believe God is the judge, not me.

 

I am sort of ... uncertain how I think about sexuality at present if I am honest, anyway.

Edited by Silverswift

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Aight back after vacation.

As for the above post by Awdz, props to you, probably the best way I've seen anyone phrase/ state it.

 

Soh..yeah, lol if I came off as attacking, sorry, phrasing things can screw up for me.

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I'm atheist but I respect all Christians,Jewish,Muslims,e.t.c

Everyone is free to believe in what they want and I respect that.

Edited by HorseChick

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I'm atheist but I respect all Christians,Jewishness,Muslims,e.t.c

Everyone is free to believe in what they want and I respect that.

Same

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I'm atheist but I respect all Christians,Jewish,Muslims,e.t.c

Everyone is free to believe in what they want and I respect that.

I don't have a religion, but I choose to respect others that do.

I have some people on my school that make fun and bully anyone who isn't a Christian (well not me, I guess). Just not fair, it's a human right to have any kind of religion sad.gif

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On animals,  while they have emotion to some extent, any surge of emotion is very short lived. If an animal,  like a cat,  we're together lose its child, it would feel the pain of loss,  but only for a short time.  If it were to happen to a human parent, the loss of her child would be more permanent.

wow what

no

not even slightly

 

I have known cats who do, in fact, grieve over lost family members and friends. I've seen several mother cats worrying about their kittens when they can't find them. I've seen mother cats meow forlornly after one of their kittens died. I've seen several cats meow forlornly and wander around in a daze after one of their siblings or friends died. And I sure as heck have seen my cats miss me whenever I leave to live with my grandma. One of my cats is ESPECIALLY affected by my absence. She digs at my door, walks around the house meowing in search for me, and even starts meowing at me if she can hear my voice over the phone. And when I come back home, often she runs up to me meowing a lot and wanting to be held. Sometimes, if I'm gone for especially long, she'll give me the cold shoulder for an hour or two before coming up to me.

 

I'd say most animals feel loss and emotion. They might be some basic emotions, but they're still there. And of course, if most animals spent too much time grieving, it would NOT be beneficial to the species. They wouldn't be able to cope and would become the weakest link. That's why it seems so "short lived". And while a creature like a cat might not have the best memory, you can bet your bottom dollar that they do remember certain pains like those losses. For one of the mother cats I knew, several months after she had lost a kitten, I had played a video on my phone of her and that kitten. Whenever she heard the kitten mewing, she started frantically looking for the kitten, only to look incredibly sad and lost when she couldn't find the source of the mewing.

 

Looking down on animals like that, thinking they have no emotions or feel pain, is often the cause of animal cruelty. Just because they can't communicate in the same way we do to tell us "Hey stop! That hurts!" doesn't mean they don't try to and don't feel it.

 

And I dunno about you or anyone else here, but I've greatly noticed, among many different pet animals (usually birds and cats, though I think dogs do it, too), they start to "talk" more when they're around us. Strays and wild animals don't, but the more you talk to your pets, the more they talk back. They've learned that "Hey, these guys make lots of sounds to get each others' attentions and do things, maybe I should make sounds to communicate, too." They don't make those sounds amongst each other, much, but do when talking to us.

 

Homosexuality is a choice. You may have feelings for a person in your family, but you have the choice to become homosexual or ignore the feelings.

Okay first of all, no. I didn't "choose" to be sexually attracted to other women as well as men. But I'm bisexual. And actually, I think it's possible I might be pansexual, because recently I've discovered I don't really care what sex/gender the other person is when it comes to any sexual attraction I may have for them.

 

I might be in an apparently straight relationship now, as I have a boyfriend, but that does NOT stop me from being sexually attracted to other females (or, anyone in general).

 

----

 

Anyway, I actually just wanted to give the thread a tiny bump because a dup was made recently. It seems some users may want to talk more about their religions, in any, and beliefs.

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When I was a kid, we lived in the Bible Belt. Well, I was 6 years old and yelled out" I DONT BELIEVE IN GOD HES FAKE" and we got DEATH THREATS so we had to move.

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im an atheist. i dont belive in any god, and i dont want to either smile.gif

 

Edited by Joste

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When I was a kid, we lived in the Bible Belt. Well, I was 6 years old and yelled out" I DONT BELIEVE IN GOD HES FAKE" and we got DEATH THREATS so we had to move.

Those stories always make me sad for everyone involved. For you, because you should not have had to endure the threats or be forced to move; for them, because I doubt they really understand the teachings they cling to so fanatically - otherwise they would not have threatened you.

Edited by Awdz Bodkins

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I am an atheist. I don't believe in any form of defined god or external force, simple the basic chemistry of gravity, radiation, magnetism, and other forces blending and forming physical objects like this planet. Humans create gods because they don't want to accept the fact that they are just a coincidence. They want to believe something wanted them to exist, and the didn't just come from a mutation in a species that came from a long line of mutations. They make afterlives because they want to live forever, or reincarnate back into the world instead of ceasing to exist. Humans build up their web of lies and then retreat into it to hide from reality.

 

"Religion is the opiate of the masses." -Karl Marx

 

Now, let's get conspiracy theorist.

 

Perhaps there is a god? Impossible to prove, however (Agnosticism). But, there is no divine being. Merely some slightly confusing science.

Dimensions, 11 known in total, each a different level do reality. If I were to enter a 2d world, I could play god. Their houses would not have height, so I could step over any wall, no matter how strong, and do as I please. They could not see me, as their brains are not able to comprehend my complexity. Maybe this "god" is a 4th or higher dimensional being? Leaving it's reality to a simpler one, to quite literally play god. It would exist past our laws of physics, it could enter out homes and do anything before we could realize something happened. So this Master Troll of an entity says, "Hey, how 'bout I make them think i'm a god?" It then proceeds to show off it's extra dimensional trolling ability, and we are like "Ormahgurd, this must be a god!" So we idolize it, pray to it and hope it uses it's ability to help us. But, it grows bored with it's toys. So it wipes out all life, and synthesizes new species from the DNA it took from our cells. Maybe that's how the dinosaurs ended? Who knows? Nobody can prove it anyway.

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Huh. According to some statistics (though it's hard to tell given the circumstances), the amount of atheists in the world population amount to about 2%. This number ranges from closer to 1% to up to 5% based on when and how the polls are done, but still, the general value is the same.

 

Anyways, to the basis of my point: The amount of people in this forum that consider themselves atheists (myself included) is well over even the higher estimates. Any thoughts as to why? Maybe we just feel the need to debate? Just thought I'd bring this up.

 

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/10/09...ith-a-religion/

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