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Empathy. Generally the basal instincts of a social animal.

Non funtioning in a surprisingly large portion of the population, fyi. People on the autism spectrum all struggle with empathy, as do people with any one of a large number of 'behaviour disorders'. There are also plenty of poeple in this world who are *not* diagnosed with any kind of mental illness that take great delight in the anguish and suffering of others (we most commonly see them in the form of internet trolls).

 

So.... saying that empathy is the sole basis for determining right and wrong actually leaves a large number of people utterly out of the equation.

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Well... I am not entirely certain whether empathy is the correct word for what I was thinking, more so just the first one that came to mind.

 

Therefore, emphasis on this part: The basal instincts of a social animal.

 

 

(There are people who are true antisocial sociopaths ... but no amount of religion is going to change their natures. That's just how they are hardwire-structured.)

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Of course you can "deny God". You can deny that he exists, or say that he exists but isn't all-powerful and doesn't rein over Earth/heaven/whatever, you can deny that just *one* God exists...

I'm not denying it/him/her/them for * sake. I don't believe in any of 'em. Do you deny fairies? Or unicorns? Or the magical cat that grants wishes to one Taiwanese boy under the age of ten every Friday? OF COURSE YOU DON'T. You simply don't believe in them.

 

I don't think you know what the word deny means.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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Well... I am not entirely certain whether empathy is the correct word for what I was thinking, more so just the first one that came to mind.

 

Therefore, emphasis on this part: The basal instincts of a social animal.

 

 

(There are people who are true antisocial sociopaths ... but no amount of religion is going to change their natures. That's just how they are hardwire-structured.)

The thing is - a lot of people that are lacking those 'basal social instincts' will abide by rules because of the fear of punishment. It's one of the reasons we have jails - they're a deterrant. If everyone had, and reacted to, these 'basal social instincts' there would be no need for them. The simple fact is that a lot of people really *don't* have those instincts. It doesn't make them bad people, it just means they need to be taught. If they're taught well, they become useful functioning members of society - people you'd never know that they didn't naturally posses such empathetic instincts. Taught badly... well, see the jail population.

 

I'm not saying here that religion is nescesary to teach people those rules. It's a useful tool for doing so, but it isn't by any means the only one. But morality of the kind you are thinking simply isn't hardwired for a relatively sizeable segment of humanity. And if no one tries to teach them in any way - if there's just an expectation that they'll have an innate understanding of 'right' and 'wrong' - that's when you get problems.

 

Many of you will have had this sense of 'right and wrong' instilled in you by your parents at a very, very young age. "It's not nice to hurt people." is one of the earliest phrases most of us hear. But we do have to be taught what 'hurt' is, and that we need to avoid doing it. Or have you never watched kids in the playground? There's an awful lot of very casual nastiness in young children.

 

Bluntly put - I think it's erroneous to claim that most people have an innate sense of right and wrong. Most people were *taught* right from wrong by their parents, who learnt it from theirs - going back centuries. People can and do break away from the lessons their parents taught them, but that doesn't change that the lessons were tuaght in the first place.

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I'm not denying it/him/her/them for * sake. I don't believe in any of 'em. Do you deny fairies? Or unicorns? Or the magical cat that grants wishes to one Taiwanese boy under the age of ten every Friday?  OF COURSE YOU DON'T. You simply don't believe in them.

 

I don't think you know what the word deny means.

In biblical terms, God is real. To say that God is not, is to deny the truth. I apologize that the [wording from my perspective] was confusing.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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The simple fact is that a lot of people really *don't* have those instincts. It doesn't make them bad people, it just means they need to be taught. If they're taught well, they become useful functioning members of society - people you'd never know that they didn't naturally posses such empathetic instincts.

I think you might be a bit too stuck on the word "empathy" I used in the beginning... The basal instincts are not only those which make people capable of sympathising when someone is injured or feeling bad, but also all those which make people want to socially interact in any form, or make them feel good when they are praised, et cetera, et cetera. If it weren't for those social instincts, "being taught" wouldn't work.

- Switching some of them off will also not eliminate them all. (As far as I am aware, most autism spectrum people want some kind of positive interaction with at least someone. They might not be able to naturally understand why going and simply standing really close to a person they like might come across as slightly strange to the said person - using an example from another person from the spectrum -, but nevertheless, they usually have at least some social instincts.)

 

Again there *are* some who might lack (almost) all of said instincts - asocial sociopaths - but those people will remain much more potentially dangerous than others. Some of them never see any incentive to actually hurt someone, and others might stay too afraid to do anything truly bad ... but there is a reason why very strong majority serial killers are sociopaths.

 

(And there is also the fact that a lot of people do not feel fear in the same way others do - myself being an example.)

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I'm not talking about what I believe, I'm questioning YOUR basis for believing that hurting someone is wrong. Is hurting someone wrong because I think it's wrong? Is it wrong because I empathize with them? Or are you appealing to a transcendent standard? I want to know where this concept of "right and wrong" is coming from. Is it based on feeling? Reasoning? What? I don't see how this is "ridiculous" at all. It would be ridiculous to say that something was wrong without knowing why it was wrong.

How about we dissect the Ten Commandments:

 

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Don't believe in a god so irrelevant

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Seems like a certain omncient, perfect being is falling into one of his own deadly sins here. We get it.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Okay, really? How long does it take to actually get to the moral part here?

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

REALLY?! These are supposed to be rules on how not to be a major assbutt. So why are they all NOT about being a major assbutt?

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Okay, here's a good one. Don't diss your mommy and daddy. Why? They raised you. They cared for you. The kindness they give should be returned because it is common human decency.

Thou shalt not kill.

People probably aren't going to like you if you murder people, the murdered individual especially. It's going to cause turmoil in the community. Avoid turmoil by avoiding making people upset. Don't kill people.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Same as above.

Thou shalt not steal.

It's all about social turmoil. You need to avoid it by avoiding these things. These things hurt people and when people are hurt, they get upset.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

If you're a lying censorkip.gif***, people aren't going to like you.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

I don't understand this one at all because if you don't want anything then the entire economy goes down the drain. Don't steal, I guess? That's sort of covered in the above.

 

 

So the "Big Ten" list of morals are half composed of things that aren't even morals and half morals that can be explained in terms of 'don't piss people off or hurt them or else they're come after you instead'. Doesn't seem like I need a god to tell me all of these things.

 

 

 

Also, who says the bible is real? It can't be proven as fact. As a Christian, you do not believe in Zeus. Are you denying him? No, you just don't beleive in him! Denying means ' to refuse to believe the truth of'. If we cannot prove gods are real (All gods), we cannot deny them. We just don't believe in them.

 

What about the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Do you believe in her?

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Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
My personal moral code would expand it as follows: "Honour all who haven't given you a reason not to. Tolerate the as long as they are doing nothing that would harm people unless intervened."

 

There is no reason to single out the parents, especially if they are of the abusive kind.

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How about we dissect the Ten Commandments:

 

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Don't believe in a god so irrelevant

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Seems like a certain omncient, perfect being is falling into one of his own deadly sins here. We get it.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Okay, really? How long does it take to actually get to the moral part here?

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

REALLY?! These are supposed to be rules on how not to be a major assbutt. So why are they all NOT about being a major assbutt?

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Okay, here's a good one. Don't diss your mommy and daddy. Why? They raised you. They cared for you. The kindness they give should be returned because it is common human decency.

Thou shalt not kill.

People probably aren't going to like you if you murder people, the murdered individual especially. It's going to cause turmoil in the community. Avoid turmoil by avoiding making people upset. Don't kill people.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Same as above.

Thou shalt not steal.

It's all about social turmoil. You need to avoid it by avoiding these things. These things hurt people and when people are hurt, they get upset.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

If you're a lying censorkip.gif***, people aren't going to like you.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

I don't understand this one at all because if you don't want anything then the entire economy goes down the drain. Don't steal, I guess? That's sort of covered in the above.

 

 

So the "Big Ten" list of morals are half composed of things that aren't even morals and half morals that can be explained in terms of 'don't piss people off or hurt them or else they're come after you instead'. Doesn't seem like I need a god to tell me all of these things.

 

 

 

Also, who says the bible is real? It can't be proven as fact. As a Christian, you do not believe in Zeus. Are you denying him? No, you just don't beleive in him! Denying means ' to refuse to believe the truth of'. If we cannot prove gods are real (All gods), we cannot deny them. We just don't believe in them.

 

What about the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Do you believe in her?

You did a really great job of not answering my question. I'll answer yours when you answer mine.

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You want to know why something is right or wrong?

Simple: there is no such thing as right or wrong. Morals come from a herd mentality of keeping people organized. Chaos in a herd is bad because it exposes the herd to weakness and predators. Morals exist to help avoid chaos. That is why morals vary from person to person; it is all their unique way of avoiding chaos in a group. I don't need a book telling me how to avoid chaos. It's called using common sense.

 

Now riddle me this: why do you need a book to tell you not to cause chaos?

Edited by pudding

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You know I find myself being really quite saddened and disappointed by this thread recently. We've had some great debates and discussion in the past, but recently it's turned into the 'rip apart and bash Christianity' thread. I can honestly say I've never seen any other religion treated on here the way some of you are now treating Christianity - including Islam & Judaism, both of which descend from the same root.

 

Newsflash - it does not make you seem like the bigger people. You are not debating the finer points of behaviour in the religion, you are attacking the concept of it in it's entirety. I see people rampantly ignoring anything good that may be contained in scripture in favour of portraying the Christian God in the worst possible light. Worse, in most cases this is not being presented as a simple reason for you leaving, but it is being repeated over and over to anyone who dares to say that they are Christian.

 

You know what? I *am* Christian, and I'm mighty tired of reading this. I don't now, nor ever have, agreed with some of the things done in the name of my religion. But I am deeply, deeply saddened and disappointed to see the repeated attacks at the very root, the very existence, of the God I believe in. I had come to expect a lot better of the people on this forum, many of whome I have shared respectful debates with in the past. I am sure you would not subject Noble to such an attack on her beliefs, it is beyond me why you think it is in any way not hurtful (which, bear in mind, is something I have seen several of you repeat should be a guiding principle) to do the same to mine.

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Non funtioning in a surprisingly large portion of the population, fyi. People on the autism spectrum all struggle with empathy, as do people with any one of a large number of 'behaviour disorders'. There are also plenty of poeple in this world who are *not* diagnosed with any kind of mental illness that take great delight in the anguish and suffering of others (we most commonly see them in the form of internet trolls).

 

So.... saying that empathy is the sole basis for determining right and wrong actually leaves a large number of people utterly out of the equation.

Then college psychology would leave them all out as well, because that's what I got my degree in. A lack of empathy, or inability to empathize, leans toward Sociopathology. Those don't generally care. The true Psychopath is the one who takes pleasure in hurting others. And these kinds of mental disorders seem to be on the rise these days and weren't nearly so prevalent with our ancient ancestors. I'm not saying they didn't exist, just that it wasn't so easy to walk down the street and see nearly every Joe Blow who walks by talking to themselves and then telling you to shut up out of the blue when you've said nothing at all.

 

Human instinct tells us right from wrong. It is the same with any animal. They don't usually kill each other unless it is for the hunt to survive, or for territorial rights, or when feeling afraid and threatened. All man has to do to see what is humane is to watch animals. I'm sure, there will be those who focus on the "negative" things that animals do. Rather, try to figure out "why" that behavior, because animals are usually pretty instinctive and reasonable.

 

I only put this debate forth because so many think we Christians can't know right from wrong without our God telling us it's so. He made us thinking, reasoning beings... just like every other creature that walks this Earth. We have brains and instincts. And right and wrong are laws that our "written" into those instincts. I have to watch my wording because some don't want me to use the word "soul" because they either don't believe in such a thing, or can't comprehend it.

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How about we dissect the Ten Commandments:

 

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Don't believe in a god so irrelevant

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Seems like a certain omncient, perfect being is falling into one of his own deadly sins here. We get it.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Okay, really? How long does it take to actually get to the moral part here?

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

REALLY?! These are supposed to be rules on how not to be a major assbutt. So why are they all NOT about being a major assbutt?

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Okay, here's a good one. Don't diss your mommy and daddy. Why? They raised you. They cared for you. The kindness they give should be returned because it is common human decency.

Thou shalt not kill.

People probably aren't going to like you if you murder people, the murdered individual especially. It's going to cause turmoil in the community. Avoid turmoil by avoiding making people upset. Don't kill people.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Same as above.

Thou shalt not steal.

It's all about social turmoil. You need to avoid it by avoiding these things. These things hurt people and when people are hurt, they get upset.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

If you're a lying censorkip.gif***, people aren't going to like you.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

I don't understand this one at all because if you don't want anything then the entire economy goes down the drain. Don't steal, I guess? That's sort of covered in the above.

 

 

So the "Big Ten" list of morals are half composed of things that aren't even morals and half morals that can be explained in terms of 'don't piss people off or hurt them or else they're come after you instead'. Doesn't seem like I need a god to tell me all of these things.

 

 

 

Also, who says the bible is real? It can't be proven as fact. As a Christian, you do not believe in Zeus. Are you denying him? No, you just don't beleive in him! Denying means ' to refuse to believe the truth of'. If we cannot prove gods are real (All gods), we cannot deny them. We just don't believe in them.

 

What about the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Do you believe in her?

A look at the 10 commandments from the 'this world is a classroom' perspective. Disclaimer: This is just one interpretation, and these commandments are very multi-faceted (i.e., may be interpreted in many ways).

 

1. God is the One we have to answer to, ultimately.

2. Don't get distracted from the lesson.

3. Show respect for our Teacher so that you do not distract others from the lesson.

4. Take breaks from the tasks set before you to review what you have learned so far.

5. Be grateful and supportive of those who help you with the lesson.

6. Do not kill - it may remove others from the classroom before their time to learn has been completed.

7. No adultery - I consider this highlighting a special part of the lesson, about developing an intimate 1:1 relationship with another, unlike any other relationship we may have; breaking it destroys something beautiful and leaves you with less to show for your class.

8. No stealing - it undermines others' lessons as well as makes yours less effective. You can get what you need to learn the lesson in other ways.

9. No lying about others - you destroy the relationships you and others are learning to build, as well as undermining the lessons.

10. Do not covet - do not get distracted from the lesson by things you do not need. There is no need for jealousy, especially as you do not truly know the circumstances of anyone else.

 

 

As for proof? We do not have the technology to prove the existence of God, and likely never will. Scientific method requires ability to compare to the null hypothesis, but since God is omnipresent, there is nowhere to show it.

de·ny  (dĭ-nī′)

tr.v. de·nied, de·ny·ing, de·nies

1.  To declare untrue; contradict.

2.  To refuse to believe; reject.

 

3.  To refuse to recognize or acknowledge; disavow.

 

4.

a.  To decline to grant or allow; refuse: deny the student's request; denied the prisoner food or water.

 

b.  To give a refusal to; turn down or away: The protesters were determined not to be denied.

 

c.  To restrain (oneself) especially from indulgence in pleasures.

 

 

[Middle English denien, from Old French denier, from Latin dēnegāre : dē-, de- + negāre, to say no; see  ne in Indo-European roots.]

 

Synonyms:  deny, contradict, contravene, disaffirm, gainsay, negate, traverse

These verbs mean to refuse to admit the existence, truth, or value of: denied the rumor; contradicted the statement; contravene a conclusion; disaffirm a suggestion; trying to gainsay the evidence; negated the allegations; traverse an indictment.

Antonym: affirm

 

 

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Edited by Awdz Bodkins

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You SHOULDN'T need religion to make you realize that killing, stealing, rape, is wrong. If you truly need religion to dictate to you "Don't kill cause I said so" or "Don't ____ cause that's bad" Are you seriously only NOT going and killing people, lying to, cheating, because GOD said don't do that or, don't kill the nonbelievers. THAT is not a thing to have to live by. You are basically letting a religion tell you this is bad because...._____(god says so?) rather than "My conscious* doesn't like this idea"

 

*By conscious I mean sane people that CAN rationalize right from wrong.

Edited by BlightWyvern

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A look at the 10 commandments from the 'this world is a classroom' perspective. Disclaimer: This is just one interpretation, and these commandments are very multi-faceted (i.e., may be interpreted in many ways).

 

1. God is the One we have to answer to, ultimately.

2. Don't get distracted from the lesson.

3. Show respect for our Teacher so that you do not distract others from the lesson.

4. Take breaks from the tasks set before you to review what you have learned so far.

5. Be grateful and supportive of those who help you with the lesson.

6. Do not kill - it may remove others from the classroom before their time to learn has been completed.

7. No adultery - I consider this highlighting a special part of the lesson, about developing an intimate 1:1 relationship with another, unlike any other relationship we may have; breaking it destroys something beautiful and leaves you with less to show for your class.

8. No stealing - it undermines others' lessons as well as makes yours less effective. You can get what you need to learn the lesson in other ways.

9. No lying about others - you destroy the relationships you and others are learning to build, as well as undermining the lessons.

10. Do not covet - do not get distracted from the lesson by things you do not need. There is no need for jealousy, especially as you do not truly know the circumstances of anyone else.

 

 

As for proof? We do not have the technology to prove the existence of God, and likely never will. Scientific method requires ability to compare to the null hypothesis, but since God is omnipresent, there is nowhere to show it.

But can you prove the existence of a god to me? This applies to any thiest out there who believes in something. If you aren't able to convince me, I will clump your god in mythology just like faries and unicorns. I do not deny them, I just don't believe in them. If they can't be proven as fact, there is no denying to be done.

 

Your argument assumes that god is a provable being when it is not.

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Here's other religions commandments. Your point being.....? That only christian commandments are just and right? I don't need the christian god and bible to be "the only source of morality. I transferred out of his school ages ago. Look at these wonderful commandments. And as for morality, I can admit one of the reasons I don't do some of the things I'd like to do is because of legal ramifications. I'm sure a lot of other people are the same

 

1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.

3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.

4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.

7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

9. Do not harm little children.

10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.

11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

 

Stupidity …….I laughed so hard.

The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.

Pretentiousness

Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn’t applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone’s made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.

Solipsism

Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won’t. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of “Do unto others as they do unto you.” It’s work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.

Self-deceit

It’s in the “Nine Satanic Statements” but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it’s fun, and with awareness. But then, it’s not self-deceit!

Herd Conformity My favorite

That’s obvious from a Satanic stance. It’s all right to conform to a person’s wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.

Lack of Perspective

Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints—know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.

Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies

Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something new and different, when in reality it’s something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the creator and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.

Counterproductive Pride

That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you’ve painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, I’m sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow, then do it.

Lack of Aesthetics

This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but an eye for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It’s not what’s supposed to be pleasing—it’s what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one’s own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.

Edited by BlightWyvern

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In biblical terms, God is real. To say that God is not, is to deny the truth.  I apologize that the [wording from my perspective] was confusing.

This argument is self defeating. In BIBLICAL terms god is real. In any other context he can't be proved/ doesn't exist. The only perspective that god is real is by your (anyone's, not a specific you) faith.

Edited by BlightWyvern

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Can't make a legitimate reply right now, and I likely won't ever. This thread has deteriorated below the point where its existence is justified in my eyes

 

@Blight

First, I was referring to Master, not you. And at this point I could care less. I cannot help who I am, and if you choose to fear me for that, fine (Lol, like I said, you may as well be hating on me for being trans) I do not have a natural sense of right and wrong, simple as that

 

Boo

 

Edit: Oh, and I like number eleven. Someone bothers you and won't stop? Destroy him. Hehe (I am admittedly very creative with my methods of destruction...)

 

@Tikindi

I agree with absolutely everything you've said. Thank you for all that. Vile ^^

Edited by MasterWeavile898

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But can you prove the existence of a god to me? This applies to any thiest out there who believes in something. If you aren't able to convince me, I will clump your god in mythology just like faries and unicorns. I do not deny them, I just don't believe in them. If they can't be proven as fact, there is no denying to be done.

 

Your argument assumes that god is a provable being when it is not.

I will repeat the last paragraph I wrote and parts of the definition section for deny that address your points.

 

As for proof? We do not have the technology to prove the existence of God, and likely never will. Scientific method requires ability to compare to the null hypothesis, but since God is omnipresent, there is nowhere to show it.

1.  To declare untrue; contradict.

 

2.  To refuse to believe; reject.

 

3.  To refuse to recognize or acknowledge; disavow.

Synonyms:  deny, contradict, contravene, disaffirm, gainsay, negate, traverse

These verbs mean to refuse to admit the existence, truth, or value of

So I have to ask, by refusing to believe God is real, rejecting that, declaring the existence of God as untrue, how are you not denying God?

Edited by Awdz Bodkins

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Can't make a legitimate reply right now, and I likely won't ever. This thread has deteriorated below the point where its existence is justified in my eyes

 

@Blight

First, I was referring to Master, not you. And at this point I could care less. I cannot help who I am, and if you choose to fear me for that, fine (Lol, like I said, you may as well be hating on me for being trans) I do not have a natural sense of right and wrong, simple as that

 

Boo

 

Edit: Oh, and I like number eleven. Someone bothers you and won't stop? Destroy him. Hehe (I am admittedly very creative with my methods of destruction...)

 

@Tikindi

I agree with absolutely everything you've said. Thank you for all that. Vile ^^

Yeah I fixed (edited) everything >_> I just woke up when I was reading that and haven't been in the best moods...doesn't make for a rational reply. I'm sorry ._.

Edited by BlightWyvern

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You SHOULDN'T need religion to make you realize that killing, stealing, rape, is wrong. If you truly need religion to dictate to you "Don't kill cause I said so" or "Don't ____ cause that's bad" Are you seriously only NOT going and killing people, lying to, cheating, because GOD said don't do that or, don't kill the nonbelievers. THAT is not a thing to have to live by. You are basically letting a religion tell you this is bad because...._____(god says so?) rather than "My conscious* doesn't like this idea"

 

*By conscious I mean sane people that CAN rationalize right from wrong.

I think most people do grow up with the idea that killing, lying, stealing, etc. are wrong. However, circumstances may push someone into thinking that maybe in a special case, it is justified (e.g., it's OK to steal money from someone rich because they don't need it as much). By having an authority source reinforce that it is wrong, it reduces the chance of labeling something wrong as OK (incorrectly) under pressure and then doing it.

 

Given that, it becomes a choice of what to consider an authority source. I would rather take my cue from the almighty Creator.

 

This argument is self defeating. In BIBLICAL terms god is real. In any other context he can't be proved/ doesn't exist. The only perspective that god is real is by your (anyone's, not a specific you) faith.

? I was putting an earlier statement in context of my belief, not stating something which was provable.

Edited by Awdz Bodkins

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I think most people do grow up with the idea that killing, lying, stealing, etc. are wrong. However, circumstances may push someone into thinking that maybe in a special case, it is justified (e.g., it's OK to steal money from someone rich because they don't need it as much). By having an authority source reinforce that it is wrong, it reduces the chance of labeling something wrong as OK (incorrectly) under pressure and then doing it.

 

Given that, it becomes a choice of what to consider an authority source. I would rather take my cue from the almighty Creator.

I would rather fear punishment from the law than some "supreme" creator that can supposedly throw the ones that disbelieve him into hell. Can't see him, can't prove him other than the biblical sense, so why should it matter to me? Because I deny him i'm going to suffer enternal punishment or something? As a quote I read somewhere, "It's your hell, you burn in it" (meaning if you believe hell exists and someone doesn't, it means nothing to the person you are arguing with. No point in getting flustered about something that doesn't exist.)

More or less, laws cover these things. I have a decent set of morals thank you and I don't need some "Omniscient, omnipotent, omnipitant" god over-lording every aspect of my life when I can do a dang good job of that myself. So if I'm a decent person that has "faith" I get rewarded but if I have beliefs to be a good person without god then I'll be punished. I find this notion laughable.

 

I should be able to reason and use my brain to weight what I find important to me. Regardless of my religion, I will still be a good person. If that's good enough to get me into whatever paradise you can name after death, cool. If it isn't, I wouldn't want to go there. I wouldn't want to touch your god, who needs you to make him feel good in order to get into his private club instead of looking at your actual actions. I'll be "stuck" with a bunch of my peers, which is the much preferable option too. So basically, none of us should care about the end result, because it'll all work out one way or another.

 

Otherwise, it's petty. "Believe in me or you'll go to hell." That's a scare tactic, and does not promote free thinking and individuality and your own choice. "You have to pray to me as often as you can." That's pretty egoistic. Really, from what I've seen and heard, he has the attitude of a petty, petulant child, along with a pretty severe inferiority complex, not some sort of altruistic, all-knowing and all-loving being ("You guys don't believe in me? Time to kill you all and start anew until someone gets to recognize my amazingness and awesome presence").

High Lord November summed it up pretty well.

 

And from what I've seen/read in the bible, god doesn't really want us to think freely and for ourselves, he wants to do that for us.

Edited by BlightWyvern

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I think most people do grow up with the idea that killing, lying, stealing, etc. are wrong. However, circumstances may push someone into thinking that maybe in a special case, it is justified (e.g., it's OK to steal money from someone rich because they don't need it as much). By having an authority source reinforce that it is wrong, it reduces the chance of labeling something wrong as OK (incorrectly) under pressure and then doing it.

 

Given that, it becomes a choice of what to consider an authority source. I would rather take my cue from the almighty Creator.

 

 

? I was putting an earlier statement in context of my belief, not stating something which was provable.

[Will address denying in a moment]

 

What if the god you believe in spoke into your brain that you are now to kill everyone with blue eyes? The Ten Commandments state not to kill but there are multiple situations where your god overrides that. Would you listen and take your cue from him then?

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I would rather fear punishment from the law than some "supreme" creator that can supposedly throw the ones that disbelieve him into hell. Can't see him, can't prove him other than the biblical sense, so why should it matter to me? Because I deny him i'm going to suffer enternal punishment or something? As a quote I read somewhere, "It's your hell, you burn in it" (meaning if you believe hell exists and someone doesn't, it means nothing to the person you are arguing with. No point in getting flustered about something that doesn't exist.)

More or less, laws cover these things. I have a decent set of morals thank you and I don't need some "Omniscient, omnipotent, omnipitant" god over-lording every aspect of my life when I can do a dang good job of that myself. So if I'm a decent person that has "faith" I get rewarded but if I have beliefs to be a good person without god then I'll be punished. I find this notion laughable.

 

High Lord November summed it up pretty well.

 

And from what I've seen/read in the bible, god doesn't really want us to think freely and for ourselves, he wants to do that for us.

Wowsers, you are really stuck on the stereotype you know for Christian beliefs. I guess I have not explained my perspective very well, if you are still going on at me about folks burning in hell and God not wanting us to think for ourselves.

 

What if the god you believe in spoke into your brain that you are now to kill everyone with blue eyes? The Ten Commandments state not to kill but there are multiple situations where your god overrides that. Would you listen and take your cue from him then?

Jesus never said killing was OK. I find that "what if" scenario ridiculous.

Edited by Awdz Bodkins

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Never said that I lump everyone together, as previously said, there are exceptions . All I do is make assumptions on the basis of what you have been saying. You talk about being gods followers and yet you do not make it clear what happens to those that do not believe so therefore I am making the conclusion that you do believe people will burn in hell, yes, because you are christian, because I have not heard anything in those 18 years of my life of going to churches any different. I have never heard ANY say that "you won't suffer in some way for not following god. So my assumption on the hell standpoint is from my experiences. wink.gif

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