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It's also much more understandable when the Norse and Greek gods make mistakes or act with less than wise intentions, because they're not omniscient. God has no excuse for the "fallen world" Christians claim we live in. He knew damn well, before he created anything, that the world would become "fallen." He made it that way. He had the power to make it a different way. At best it makes no sense, at worst it's morally reprehensible.

 

And let me just say for the record that I am speaking of the Christian concept of god. I have nothing against Christians. Hell, even Christianity isn't all that bad in the modern world. But the loudest voices are the most hateful.

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Let's see... I haven't actually talked about my religious beliefs before. I'll admit for the longest time, my knowledge of most religions in general was limited to Christianity. Mainly because my mother didn't bring me to church and that was the only one I'd heard someone say.

 

When I was little, I asked my mother what religion we were when I first learned about it from other kids in school. She was quiet a moment, and then said we were Christian. I didn't understand what it meant, but now I had an answer when I was ever asked.

 

The problem was... I did not know anything about Christianity. I knew about the bible. I knew about god, I knew about Jesus. I knew about Hell. I knew about Satan. But I was never taught about it much so I couldn't connect that to the word Christianity. I had a little nightlight lamp of Mary holding the baby Jesus, too. However... I was terrified of religion. Any mention of the words "God", "Jesus", or "Hell" made my stomach knot up and made me feel sick. I would try to run off as quickly as possible whenever anyone started talking about it. I got no comfort when people told me god and Jesus loved me. I instead got a hot fear in the pit of my stomach. I'd get scared whenever I even saw a bible for some reason.

 

My father's mother was heavily religious. From what I hear, she wasn't always like that, but one day she found Jesus so to speak and became a very heavily religious woman. She had many pictures of Jesus all around her house and a large bust of him over the TV which lead to problems when she would allow me to play duck hunt. I had to sit under the TV on the floor. And I usually got smacked and she screamed at me multiple times for "pointing a gun at Jesus's head". Uhm... yeah she should have put that bust somewhere else. I was aiming at the TV.

 

One day while staying at her home with my father, my grandmother decided to drag us to her church. It was horrifying for such a young child. They were bounding around the aisles in a frenzy. The preacher pulled out a shovel as they danced around and declared "We're going to go dig our way down to Satan and we shall defeat him!" It was at that point that my fear of religion finally reached its climax and I lost it. I started screaming and crying "I don't want to go to Hell!" until my brother started crying too and my father picked us both up and rushed us out of the building. When my mother picked us up later that day he apologized profusely and promised never to let that happen again.

 

Fast forward to my middle school years. My brother had become heavily religious, going to school early every Thursday for their religious thing they always had in the cafeteria. I was still scared of religion at this point. But now my years in a school system full of religious individuals had finally gotten to me. I was scared to death I was going to go to hell because I was never baptized. I would beg my mom to take me but she'd roll her eyes and say "maybe later." My brother would just laugh to himself because of my fear. So one day I went with him to that thing he always went to on Thursdays. As they did their prayer stuff, it didn't take long for that bottled up fear from my childhood to come back again and I quickly ran back to the school's entrance doors to wait with the other kids who didn't go.

 

As an aside to this, I learned about Greek and Egyptian Mythology my 6th and 7th grade years. I leaned more towards and interest in Greek Mythology. I didn't understand why what I saw as a religion with gods had stopped being used like Christianity (I figured out why later of course). I loved every minute of learning of Greek Mythology, but at the time I never really thought about it.

 

My last year of middle school before high school, I finally learned about the Salem Witch trials. I'd heard of them before, sure. But this was the first time I was actually taught about them. I'd always been terrified of witches because of the people saying they were followers of Satan (however, little me still made an adorable witch on Halloween! I even still have the picture!) but when I actually started learning about what happened in Salem.. that fear of religion I once held turned to vitriol and anger. I felt absolutely nothing but pain and sadness every time I learned about another who had died in Salem. After that, I can honestly say it was the first time in my life I could have considered myself to be an atheist. I didn't stay that way of course, but this was when I finally stopped saying I was a Christian.

 

Fast forward again to the summer before my senior year of High school. I still felt everything I had in the past about religion, except now I had learned about more faiths after volunteering to do my history report on religion two years prior. I still hadn't found a religion I could fully believe in because I still saw people being damned and hate being shot at each other. Then one day I asked my grandfather to order a beautiful silver necklace for me before my school year started. It was a disc, with "By life, by love, by liberty, all good luck comes to me" written around it in what was called "Elven Script" (I later found out this was in fact the theban alphabet). What interested me most about this necklace was the pentacle in the center. When I still feared everything, I knew it to be a symbol of satanism and evil. However, this star was right side up. I found that fascinating as I had never seen it like that before. I loved that necklace and the moment I put it on, it felt right for some reason. OF course, my brother was still religious at the time, so he called me a satanist and avoided me for about a week.

 

A few months later, I saw the pentacle symbol again in my catalogs. But this time it was on a book. It was called The Witches' Bible and it was written by a Janet and Stewart Farrar. I asked my grandfather to order it for me and he did, surprisingly. I would spend my study halls in high school reading over that book. Once I had finished, I knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to study more about this new religion I'd found. Of course, an old friend I had made my sophomore year discovered this and told me every day I was going to hell. To my surprise, my childhood fears of that fate were gone. I simply ignored her. She was a pretty bad judge of character considering she'd cheated on my best friend and was angry at me because I'd told him about it.

 

Flash forward to now. I have quite a few more books about Wicca/Witchcraft. Almost 20 to be exact. Compared to people who've been at it longer, that's probably a small number but for me it's a pretty big accomplishment. I had to stop buying them for a year or two since my grandparents were getting irritated with me, thinking I was going through a phase. What's funny is that my brother was the one who'd been in a religious phase. He dropped his belief in Christianity a long time ago and he now considers himself an atheist. One of those who likes to bash Christians when they set him off. My grandparents and my mother... I'd loosely call them agnostic. They're not like my brother, but they also don't really believe in much.

 

I'm much more comfortable calling myself a witch now. And I'll wear that same pentacle necklace around with pride (unless I'm off volunteering with the kids down at the head start center. They don't need to be subjugated to such an offshoot to the religions their parents have and I wouldn't want to have to answer questions about it). Of course, I'd never call myself an expert on the subject. I'm still learning quite a bit about it after all this time. However, I'm quite happy with what I am now. Though I'd be the first to admit that I'm probably pretty unique with my view of religion in general, even for a witch.

 

I don't even fear other religions anymore. I tend to accept everyone's religious beliefs (to the point my brother is frustrated at me because he can't break me whenever he decides to have a debate with me about religion). But you'll see me become more stern when faced with someone who's trying to condemn other faiths because they're different. I won't fight them, I just tend to sigh and walk away after a little bit.

 

I also love studying ancient mythology. Greek is still my favorite of course (Apollo being a God I've had a lot of connections with. Heck, I discovered over the years three of my favorite names for a daughter are related to Apollo in one way or another!), but I love to learn about all of them and all the Gods and Goddesses in them.

 

I also enjoy that Ancient Aliens show. Mainly because my grandfather's fascinated by it and had books about that sort of thing before the show even aired, which I'd spend my time reading. So I recognized quite a few of the people on that show when I started watching it. They make some sense to me, but I'm sure I'm in the minority in that regard! xd.png

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God has no excuse for the "fallen world" Christians claim we live in. He knew damn well, before he created anything, that the world would become "fallen." He made it that way. He had the power to make it a different way. At best it makes no sense, at worst it's morally reprehensible.

I do not think we will ever agree on this. You speak as though this world is the final goal, and I see it only as an interim learning/growing place. I do not believe we have enough perspective to judge God's actions as inexcusable, since we only know this world. But, we will not know for sure until we die, what lies beyond.

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I do not think we will ever agree on this. You speak as though this world is the final goal, and I see it only as an interim learning/growing place.

But will the christian god let us learn/grow or just destroy us? Seems like when things get out of hand he has a habit of just killing everyone instead.

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I'm just popping in!

I'm a Unitarian Universalist <3

I don't believe in god, I don't think..? I guess I'm more agnostic than atheist, but I'm not really sure... I don't think a god exists, but I guess I'm not sure.

Yeah, it's confusing blink.gif

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PFFTT!!!! HAHA! *Laughing at the religion rules there, not at you.*

 

I'm Christian, but I'll be (censored) before I ever submit to any man. I've often found myself thinking about finding some sort of Amazonian based religion, but can't for the life of me find one I feel comfortable with. I've considered Druidism, Wicca, any number of different religions, but there are too many things involved that I can't "feel". But I'm at the same odds with my own religion, so I'm kind of up the creek. There isn't a single religion in existence that doesn't rub me the wrong way, including my own, but I stick with it because it's all I've ever known and gives me comfort in my darkest hours. Still... the whole "submit to your man" thing has GOT to go!

You can always just be a deist without the organised religion mumbo-jumbo, books, fixed ideas etc, heh. You can always find comfort in your idea of a supposed "divine", creator, deity, energy, spirit, whatever. You don't need to follow popular interpretations and existing religions.

 

Those were some terrible sentences.

Edited by flitzthesoulreaper

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But will the christian god let us learn/grow or just destroy us? Seems like when things get out of hand he has a habit of just killing everyone instead.

I do not see our physical bodies in this world as our eternal selves. I believe our souls are what God is interested in, and we do not know what happens to those after we die - even for those who deny God.

 

If someone does not learn the material in a class, they do not advance to the next one. Sometimes other teaching methods are employed; sometimes they are redirected to other studies. I trust God finds the best solution of what to do.

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If someone does not learn the material in a class, they do not advance to the next one. Sometimes other teaching methods are employed; sometimes they are redirected to other studies. I trust God finds the best solution of what to do.

Curious way to phrase it. So what if the student decides to transfer schools do you think would happen?

Edited by BlightWyvern

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I do not see our physical bodies in this world as our eternal selves. I believe our souls are what God is interested in, and we do not know what happens to those after we die - even for those who deny God.

 

If someone does not learn the material in a class, they do not advance to the next one. Sometimes other teaching methods are employed; sometimes they are redirected to other studies. I trust God finds the best solution of what to do.

There's no such thing as denying "God". There's such a thing as not believing in one. I don't think souls are something that exist, if in the hypothetical that they do why would any deity be interested in them?

 

It could be like a collectibles game. Whichever deity gets the bigger variety and largest number wins!

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There's no such thing as denying "God". There's such a thing as not believing in one. I don't think souls are something that exist, if in the hypothetical that they do why would any deity be interested in them?

 

It could be like a collectibles game. Whichever deity gets the bigger variety and largest number wins!

I think that the concept of "Denying" god is the same thing as not believing in god..by biblical standards ._.

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Of course you can "deny God". You can deny that he exists, or say that he exists but isn't all-powerful and doesn't rein over Earth/heaven/whatever, you can deny that just *one* God exists...

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Going to go off the current topic a bit and address something that's been bugging me for a while

 

I'd you need religion to guide you morally and can't figure out killing is wrong ON YOUR OWN or other similar things, that's terrifying.

I resent this. I resent it so, so much. I'm "terrifying" because I'm different from you? (And admittedly the majority of other people in existence) It's not like I can choose to comprehend you people's morals, all I have is what I've been told is right and wrong throughout my life. And yet somehow that makes me some kind of psycho or monster? Just because I'm different doesn't mean there's anything wrong with me. You may as well be saying there's something wrong with me for being trans

 

Ah, glad that's out of my system (Oh dear lord I think she's gonna cry) I'm sorry if I'm just slamming my face into the ground again, but I just really hate it when people imply there's something wrong with me for not being "normal" (I kinda just got over doing that myself) It just really hurts, and apparently that's a bad thing

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Going to go off the current topic a bit and address something that's been bugging me for a while

 

 

I resent this. I resent it so, so much. I'm "terrifying" because I'm different from you? (And admittedly the majority of other people in existence) It's not like I can choose to comprehend you people's morals, all I have is what I've been told is right and wrong throughout my life. And yet somehow that makes me some kind of psycho or monster? Just because I'm different doesn't mean there's anything wrong with me. You may as well be saying there's something wrong with me for being trans

 

Ah, glad that's out of my system (Oh dear lord I think she's gonna cry) I'm sorry if I'm just slamming my face into the ground again, but I just really hate it when people imply there's something wrong with me for not being "normal" (I kinda just got over doing that myself) It just really hurts, and apparently that's a bad thing

So you're saying that without religion you wouldn't know that murder or rape are wrong?

 

Because, quite honestly, that is beyond terrifying.

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Not exactly. But I can barely comprehend the concept of wrongness itself, so how do you expect me to consider a specific action wrong beyond outside sources? Aside from some supreme being that defines right and wrong saying something is wrong, I have nothing else. And sometimes I wonder how long I'll have that

 

I find it interesting that you cite rape as being something supremely wrong. For me the most wrong thing a person can do, and basically the only thing I naturally feel is wrong, would be to break a promise

 

But I suppose Master was right the first time then, I am a monster. I promise to remember that. Vile happy.gif

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Not exactly. But I can barely comprehend the concept of wrongness itself, so how do you expect me to consider a specific action wrong beyond outside sources? Aside from some supreme being that defines right and wrong saying something is wrong, I have nothing else. And sometimes I wonder how long I'll have that

 

I find it interesting that you cite rape as being something supremely wrong. For me the most wrong thing a person can do, and basically the only thing I naturally feel is wrong, would be to break a promise

 

But I suppose Master was right the first time then, I am a monster. I promise to remember that. Vile happy.gif

~Removed~

 

Why should you rely on a supreme being? If a person tells you that something is hurting them, it is wrong. Even if your supreme being doesn't tell you it's wrong, if another person is telling you that something is hurting or bothering or upsetting them then it is wrong to insist on continuing. I can understand needing a supreme being for more obscure things (like maybe rules set down about how to dress or a manner of speech that should be maintained or whatever), but for things that should be painfully obvious like rape and murder? No, you shouldn't need a supreme being to know that that's wrong.

 

...And I think that's a strange set of priorities. Breaking a promise is violating a trust. But a rape... Rape is worse. Rape violates the body, it violate the mind and spirit. Especially since a decent number of rapists are people who know their victim--there is likely some inherent level of trust there. Even if you don't know your rapist, that's still something that may strongly violate your ability to trust--you may never feel safe around people who share certain traits with your violator again.

 

If you cannot naturally feel that violating the mind, body, and spirit of a person in the most intimate way is wrong, then you terrify me.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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Let's say there is no such thing as God, or gods, or anything else religious. Let's say there is no such thing as religion in this world anywhere. And let's say, for the sake of argument, we live in a world of complete anarchy where no laws of any kind exist, no higher authority of any kind to answer to for any crime. I think that any "normal" human being would inherently "feel" that rape and murder are wrong.

 

I can't see myself feeling a desire or need to cause hurt or death to anyone even if I had no beliefs of any kind. I know that I can be hurt and I have been through horrible ordeals, therefore I empathize and would never wish what I have been through on even my worst enemies. To not inherently know that something so horrendous as murder and rape are wrong... that's just a psychological disorder in my eyes.

Edited by LadyFoxfire

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See, this idea that you NEED religion to tell apart right from wrong is funny because I'm pretty much irreligious (or faithless, I don't know which word describes it better), as in I don't have one and feel as if it's not a part of my life, I'd say apathetic to religion rather than hating it, and I'm able to tell apart right from wrong, sooooo...

Edited by ylangylang

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See, this idea that you NEED religion to tell apart right from wrong is funny because I'm pretty much irreligious (or faithless, I don't know which word describes it better), as in I don't have one and feel as if it's not a part of my life, I'd say apathetic to religion rather than hating it, and I'm able to tell apart right from wrong, sooooo...

So you determine right from wrong based on feeling and intuition? Or if not those, then by what standard do you determine what is right and what is wrong?

Edited by philpot123

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So you determine right from wrong based on feeling and intuition? Or if not those, then by what standard do you determine what is right and what is wrong?

Whether I'm hurting someone or not. Quite easy, actually.

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Whether I'm hurting someone or not. Quite easy, actually.

That doesn't answer the question adequately. You've said what you think is wrong, but you haven't said why it's wrong. By what standard do you claim that hurting someone is wrong?

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I'm religious, but my brother is not. He doesn't know what to believe in, but he's still a very sensitive soul and knows (instinctively) right from wrong. Though my religion is my basis for right and wrong, it didn't need to be. I believe all people are inherently good and instinctively know right from wrong down deep inside whether they believe in a deity or not.

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That doesn't answer the question adequately. You've said what you think is wrong, but you haven't said why it's wrong. By what standard do you claim that hurting someone is wrong?

Are you seriously saying that people can't understand why hurting someone is wrong?........Because it causes pain???? jc I'm not debating this any more, this is ridiculous. You're literally saying that people cannot empathize with another person's pain when most people can do this naturally.

Edited by ylangylang

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Are you seriously saying that people can't understand why hurting someone is wrong?........Because it causes pain???? jc I'm not debating this any more, this is ridiculous. You're literally saying that people cannot empathize with another person's pain when most people can do this naturally.

I'm not talking about what I believe, I'm questioning YOUR basis for believing that hurting someone is wrong. Is hurting someone wrong because I think it's wrong? Is it wrong because I empathize with them? Or are you appealing to a transcendent standard? I want to know where this concept of "right and wrong" is coming from. Is it based on feeling? Reasoning? What? I don't see how this is "ridiculous" at all. It would be ridiculous to say that something was wrong without knowing why it was wrong.

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Empathy. Generally the basal instincts of a social animal.

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