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All men everywhere have knowledge of the existence of their creator through creation and by virtue of being made in his image, and they consciously reject and sin against him by willful disobedience. Denial of God's existence and nature is a suppression of the truth in unrighteousness. (47)

Nope. laugh.gif

 

Really, I wish I could make a stronger argument than that, but it's the truth. I knew about god through cultural osmosis but it wasn't until I was in high school that I realized people actually believed god was a real being. I always thought it was just a metaphor. And when I found out that some politicians were literally asking god for advice I got downright scared. I can tell you from personal experience that what you're saying just isn't true.

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All men everywhere have knowledge of the existence of their creator through creation and by virtue of being made in his image, and they consciously reject and sin against him by willful disobedience. Denial of God's existence and nature is a suppression of the truth in unrighteousness. (47)

I was raised Catholic but never really felt it. I spent several years trying to accept God and see or hear any trace or sign that I was being acknowledged. I think I literally begged a few times for anything I could recognize.

 

If the Christian God is real, he's either nowhere near as powerful as the faith claims, or nowhere near as benevolent and understanding.

 

I'm not atheist, I have my own sort of thing going- personally I lean towards the actual creator being completely uninvolved.

Edited by TheCompleteAnimorph

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All men everywhere have knowledge of the existence of their creator through creation and by virtue of being made in his image, and they consciously reject and sin against him by willful disobedience. Denial of God's existence and nature is a suppression of the truth in unrighteousness. (47)

...................so even if someone has never heard of god then it's spiritual treason...like...really...that REALLY makes me view god as more malevolent than before. And that kind of religious superiority is definitely one of the reasons I left this faith.

 

Back on the killings and murders. Btw nothing is wrong with killing if the christian god says it is. dry.gif In actuality, let's see, common sense, the law, most people don't want to kill people. You don't need religion to teach this...at least I HOPE the only reason you aren't going around killing people is because god hasn't "spoken" to you to do so.

 

The problems with Christianity begin with the Christian Bible. What are we to make of stories like that of II Kings 2? That chapter relates how the prophet Elisha was approaching the town of Bethel when a group of boys jeered him. Elisha cursed them in the name of the Lord and two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the children. I once asked a Christian philosopher about this passage. He bit the bullet and said that God must not permit his holy prophets to be mocked.

Then there is the passage in I Samuel 15 where the prophet Samuel, speaking in the name of the Lord, orders Saul to utterly destroy the Amalekites: "Spare no one; put them all to death, men and women, children and babes in arms, herds and flocks, camels and asses" (I Samuel 15). What did the Lord have against camels and asses (not to mention babes in arms)? Were the Amalekites so evil, even their infants and animals, that they merited utter extirpation? Scripture is full of such atrocities. Tom Paine spoke truly:

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon rather than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and for my part, I sincerely detest it as I detest all that is cruel"(Paine, 1974)

Edited by BlightWyvern

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Basically, and this is a bit of a repost from what I said beforehand, I don't care if, in reality, a god exists or not. It really shouldn't matter; your belief in a god shouldn't dictate whether or not you go to paradise, if said god does exist. Of course, I say that there's no such thing, but if we're looking at it from a religious's perspective, assuming whatever they believe is true, here's some reasoning that might work on their level.

 

I should be able to reason and use my brain to weight what I find important to me. Regardless of my religion, I will still be a good person. If that's good enough to get me into whatever paradise you can name after death, cool. If it isn't, I wouldn't want to go there. I wouldn't want to touch your god, who needs you to make him feel good in order to get into his private club instead of looking at your actual actions. I'll be "stuck" with a bunch of my peers, which is the much preferable option too. So basically, none of us should care about the end result, because it'll all work out one way or another.

 

Otherwise, it's petty. "Believe in me or you'll go to hell." That's a scare tactic, and does not promote free thinking and individuality and your own choice. "You have to pray to me as often as you can." That's pretty egoistic. Really, from what I've seen and heard, he has the attitude of a petty, petulant child, along with a pretty severe inferiority complex, not some sort of altruistic, all-knowing and all-loving being ("You guys don't believe in me? Time to kill you all and start anew until someone gets to recognize my amazingness and awesome presence").

 

There's just so many things that don't work on that level; but then again, faith and religion have much less to do with logic and thinking and more to do with belief and feeling.

 

 

 

Why is killing wrong?

 

Because it is ending someone's existence. It's killing all of their interactions and joy and their thoughts and selfbeing. We only get one life; after that, it's nothingness. It's a fellow human being, with their completely unique feelings, thought, makeup, and person. It is causing pain to themselves, their family and friends. That is wrong.

 

If you only consider it wrong because someone says so, then, uh, you don't really have your own morals in that regard.

Edited by High Lord November

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And to add a bit more.

If god loved his creation and did not want to see them fall, and he's omniscient, why did he create the angel Lucifer that he knew would rebel against him? If god wanted us all to have a relationship with him why does he do nothing? Why is he on stand by as the number of christians grow smaller? You cannot possibly say that he gives people free will to worship him but then sends them to hell for making the choice not to worship him.

Should not god have intervened at a certain point as he sees his people shrink? If god does not want to intervene because that would affect our important freewill then humans will is stronger than the will of god.

 

Now answer me this, this is what I would like to know.

Why do you claim christianity is the true word? Why not Islam, Buddhism, Satanism, Paganism? Why is it so easy for you to disregard those Gods/Goddesses as false but have the audacity to say you're religion (christianity) is the only one that has it right? Why do they not hold water for you? I ask this as well, can you make a statement why christianity is the true path without saying things such as "because the bible/god says so"?

 

 

@Awdz So I should just disregard all the bloodshed and killings in the name of the christian god? from what you are saying seems to be "ignore that" because it doesn't "help grow a relationship with god". Exactly. And i'm not the one to disregard such evil, and I'm not the only one. Killing in the name of your god is no better than when other religions do it. Do you frown upon Muslim extremists killing people that don't have their beliefs? It's the SAME thing as when god commands his people to do it. The only difference is the beliefs they have.

Edited by BlightWyvern

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If you want rules that are simple and easy to understand, try the 10 commandments.

Seriously? I think that any god that puts 'No working on the Sabbath' but not 'Don't rape people' into the ten most important rules has some problems. Shall we make working on Sundays (or Saturdays, whatever) illegal? How about for emergency workers?

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Seriously? I think that any god that puts 'No working on the Sabbath' but not 'Don't rape people' into the ten most important rules has some problems. Shall we make working on Sundays (or Saturdays, whatever) illegal? How about for emergency workers?

Technically 'Thou Shalt not committ Adultery' would cover 'don't rape people' fyi.

 

*takes no real part in the conversation because he's simply deeply saddened at the vitriol on display towards Christianity*

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Technically 'Thou Shalt not committ Adultery' would cover 'don't rape people' fyi.

 

I doubt that exact word would cover marital rape, though...

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I doubt that exact word would cover marital rape, though...

Marital rape as a concept was created 50 years ago or smth, in the world of bible there is no such thing as wife not willing to have sex with her lawful husband hence the concept was irrelevant back then....

 

P.S. It always blows my mind when I witness the lack of tolerance towards religious people by non-religious people mainly coz my biggest problem with religion is their lack of tolerance towards us... dry.gif

Edited by The Evil Doer

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Marital rape as a concept was created 50 years ago or smth, in the world of bible there is no such thing as wife not willing to have sex with her lawful husband hence the concept was irrelevant back then....

 

P.S. It always blows my mind when I witness the lack of tolerance towards religious people by non-religious people mainly coz my biggest problem with religion is their lack of tolerance towards us...   dry.gif

I have a religion actually. I was taught to live and let live. I actually do tolerate all religions. What I do not tolerate is the crazy things people do in the name of their religion or when people feel they are "superior". I do not claim what I believe is better than others or that my beliefs are the only way to _____ insert final resting place here. Christianity did not hold water for me for the reasons in my previous posts.

 

All men everywhere have knowledge of the existence of their creator through creation and by virtue of being made in his image, and they consciously reject and sin against him by willful disobedience. Denial of God's existence and nature is a suppression of the truth in unrighteousness. (47)

^Statements like these do not show coexisting with others beliefs, they show "my religion is right and because you don't believe what I believe then you will suffer the consequences of my religions punishment for so.

 

Some may seem resentful towards a religion, if they grew up in a household with one that is completely different from their beliefs, it is probable that they could hold some resentment towards that specific religion depending. They do get over this feeling though, much like a phase. Someone could hurt you. Of course you would resent them for that initially, but later in life you will not care, or get over the feeling of being hurt.

 

I grew out of begrudging my old religion a long time ago. I do not however, keep silent when I have questions. I also do not keep silent when there are things that I do not understand or seem unjust. Then when things like the above come into effect, then I will criticize said teachings or said beliefs/views of the person.

Edited by BlightWyvern

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Marital rape as a concept was created 50 years ago or smth, in the world of bible there is no such thing as wife not willing to have sex with her lawful husband hence the concept was irrelevant back then....

 

P.S. It always blows my mind when I witness the lack of tolerance towards religious people by non-religious people mainly coz my biggest problem with religion is their lack of tolerance towards us... dry.gif

The thing is, if the Bible was written or inspired by an omnipresent god, he probably would have mentioned that rape is bad even in the context of marriage.

 

It comes as no surprise to anyone that a book written thousands of years ago by uneducated men would not include the concept of marital rape. It should come as a surprise if you presume that the author was GOD.

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The thing is, if the Bible was written or inspired by an omnipresent god, he probably would have mentioned that rape is bad even in the context of marriage.

 

It comes as no surprise to anyone that a book written thousands of years ago by uneducated men would not include the concept of marital rape. It should come as a surprise if you presume that the author was GOD.

Unless, of course, they argue the idea that there is no such thing as marital rape and that if your spouse (especially husband to wife) wants sex, you can't withhold it.

 

Which, if they actually argue that point (and there are those that do)... Then I have to say they're terrible excuses for human beings.

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All men everywhere have knowledge of the existence of their creator through creation and by virtue of being made in his image, and they consciously reject and sin against him by willful disobedience. Denial of God's existence and nature is a suppression of the truth in unrighteousness. (47)

Let me rephrase that for you, to make it a true statement:

 

Most people in most places have knowledge that people believe in a supreme being and either choose to believe in one (or many), or none at all. The lack of proof in either direction means that people are free to believe whatever they wish (unless those beliefs inflict harm upon another person or people), and cannot be proven wrong until evidence pointing in any direction shows up.

 

There, now it's a true statement.

 

Religion is not fact. It is a personal belief of what cannot be explained. By forcing your beliefs down other people's throats, which is based on no evidence besides an ancient book, you are basically telling people that there is one way to think, and that if they don't, then they are going to suffer. To put it another way: if people don't agree with you, they get tortured For example--Hitler would have gone to heaven, and Ann Frank to hell. (Yup, argument just reached Hitler. Yay for Godwin's Law.) I could go on and on about forcing your religion onto others, and how it can make you look really condescending condescending and ignorant, but I don't think I will, because if I don't get a warn for this post, I likely will if I were to continue. If you'd like to continue this discussion in PM, I gladly will--just no scripture quotes. I'm not reading them, since they are entirely fictional in my eyes.

 

By the way, I'm a semi-agnostic Jew--I am very reform, and stand on the fine line of being unsure whether to believe in Judaism or not. My main reason for this doubt is the lack of proof, and the fact that there are quotes from the Torah that make homosexual acts punishable by death, and that seems completely bigoted, which I doubt any true God would be. I'm sure there's more bigotry in there, too. Personally, I am more of the belief that religion was originally created by man to try to create guidelines and morals to try to better mankind, and to teach discipline, devotion, etc., but that it got way too powerful when people forced people to "convert" (I highly doubt forced conversions actually believed in what they claimed, but rather said they did to avoid death), and that people took it too far. I doubt it was ever meant to be taken as fact.

 

But yeah, religion. Woo.

Edited by PieMaster

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And to add a bit more.

If god loved his creation and did not want to see them fall, and he's omniscient, why did he create the angel Lucifer that he knew would rebel against him? If god wanted us all to have a relationship with him why does he do nothing? Why is he on stand by as the number of christians grow smaller? You cannot possibly say that he gives people free will to worship him but then sends them to hell for making the choice not to worship him.

Should not god have intervened at a certain point as he sees his people shrink? If god does not want to intervene because that would affect our important freewill then humans will is stronger than the will of god.

I believe God does intervene in ways I cannot see or know. It seems you choose to believe God does not. And even if God holds off on intervening in this life, that does not make human free will stronger than the will of God, just temporarily permitted.

 

Now answer me this, this is what I would like to know.

Why do you claim christianity is the true word? Why not Islam, Buddhism, Satanism, Paganism? Why is it so easy for you to disregard those Gods/Goddesses as false but have the audacity to say you're religion (christianity) is the only one that has it right? Why do they not hold water for you? I ask this as well, can you make a statement why christianity is the true path without saying things such as "because the bible/god says so"?

My personal spiritual journey has had much positive reinforcement with regard to Christianity. Aside from prayers answered more abundantly than I had imagined, what Jesus taught has worked out as true in my life. Any individual example I give, you can explain away through this means or that means, but for me, only one source covers explaining all of what I have experienced, and that is God/Jesus.

 

My biggest issue with other beliefs systems, why they do not fit for me, is usually one of two things:

1. They impose limits on God (e.g., refusing the possibility that God could or would take human form and live with us on earth for a time), the infinite/unlimited. Many of the arguments against God here make assumptions of limited perspective, because as humans our perspective is limited, and we tend to stick with what we know.

2. They put human individuals (self) as the ultimate power. However, humans are clearly limited; why should I put my faith in something obviously lesser than the one ultimate, infinite God? Every argument demanding to know {why God does things from the framework of human perspective} leaves me wondering if {the existence of alternate perspectives} is so hard to comprehend.

 

@Awdz So I should just disregard all the bloodshed and killings in the name of the christian god? from what you are saying seems to be "ignore that" because it doesn't "help grow a relationship with god". Exactly. And i'm not the one to disregard such evil, and I'm not the only one. Killing in the name of your god is no better than when other religions do it. Do you frown upon Muslim extremists killing people that don't have their beliefs? It's the SAME thing as when god commands his people to do it. The only difference is the beliefs they have.

I am saying that it is important to understand that misrepresentation of any doctrine for personal gain should not condemn the doctrine, only the person misrepresenting it. Christianity is not the only religion to be used in that way; it was not the first and I am sadly confident that there will be more in the future misused as well. Everywhere there has been the combination of volatile politics and differences in religious beliefs, someone has misused religion to call folks to further their own political side.

 

Yes, I frown on Muslim extremists killing people that don't have their beliefs, same as I frown on Christian extremists doing it, same as I frown on anyone of any belief doing it. I frown on those who do it because of racial differences or sexual preferences, too. Violence is not something I condone.

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So how do we reconcile Old Testament god with New Testament god?

That's a really, really good question, that I struggle with when reading about the condoned slaughters in the OT, given that I follow Jesus's teachings.

 

Going back to the "this life is a classroom" concept, one could consider the earlier culture as having more basic needs before some lessons could be taught. A teacher would spend an awful lot of time changing diapers if the students were not potty trained before sitting in class. A student distracted by hunger may learn better if fed first. Perhaps the Israelites had to thrive in a permanent land before lessons about God would take.

 

That still leaves the question, "What about those killed?" I fall back to the idea that God deals with those souls appropriately upon death in this life, in ways we cannot fathom now because we do not have the perspective to even imagine it.

 

The common theme I see between OT and NT, is God working to establish a healthy relationship with humans. I truly believe Jesus summed it up perfectly when he said the single most important commandment is to love the Lord with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength; and the next most important is to love others as well as you love yourself. All the focus of the laws on what is right/wrong, is trying to apply those concepts to very specific cases.

 

<<Side note - I like to think all the laws about driving can be similarly summed up as "Be safe" - do not get into an accident and do not cause anyone else to get into one. All rules about traffic flow and right-of-way are simply trying to prevent accidents while letting motor vehicles move about.>>

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The thing is, if the Bible was written or inspired by an omnipresent god, he probably would have mentioned that rape is bad even in the context of marriage.

 

It comes as no surprise to anyone that a book written thousands of years ago by uneducated men would not include the concept of marital rape. It should come as a surprise if you presume that the author was GOD.

 

Im not sure religious people believe that bible was written by GOD, but instead represents GOD's will/words/smth....

 

Unless, of course, they argue the idea that there is no such thing as marital rape and that if your spouse (especially husband to wife) wants sex, you can't withhold it.

 

Which, if they actually argue that point (and there are those that do)...  Then I have to say they're terrible excuses for human beings.

 

What gives you the right to judge whether someone is a a good or a bad person ?

 

Your grandgrandparents were terrible excuses for human beings simply coz they were raised in another era with different set of values ?

 

The entire Eastern world is made up purely of horrible excuses for human beings (men/women/children) simply coz their culture/set of beliefs doesnt match yours ?

 

The entire Western world is made up of people with loose morals coz they dress and behave in a certain manner ?

 

Scandinavian prison system looks like private rooms with tv, internet access and candy bars, and if I were to torture/rape/kill 100000 kids the most I could get is 20 years inside that "prison"... In America we execute/imprison for life such vile people hence we are considered primitive barbarians by our Scandinavian brothers

 

Values/morals are dynamic and forever evolving, to think that one set of values is superior to another one is silly coz we too will be outdated sooner or later

Edited by The Evil Doer

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P.S. It always blows my mind when I witness the lack of tolerance towards religious people by non-religious people mainly coz my biggest problem with religion is their lack of tolerance towards us...   dry.gif

I think that stems from religion's involvement in every day life. You'll see no atheist supporting "atheist views" in politics, or try and ban a law because it doesn't fit his "atheist morals" and he's never going to tell a girl she has to wear a veil and refuse her her right to education because there's no god.

 

Almost every human being I've ever talked to is religious. My best friends are religious, my parents, my entire family. I don't disrespect them nor do I love them any less. But if they engage in an argument about religion I am going to be harsh and honest and I'll refuse to sugar-coat my words. Doesn't mean I "tolerate" them any less, heh.

 

 

QUOTE (flitzthesoulreaper @ Feb 23 2014, 11:35 AM)

Edit: Got the christian god's name wrong. :/

 

Well, nice of you to try to be considerate, but I know God as "God," "Jesus," or "Lord."

 

To insist Christians should use "Yahweh," is like telling my son to use my legal name when referring to me. The name "Mom" is not only one he relates more readily with me, it connotates a much, much closer relationship with me than any use of my legal name will. So, yeah, as a Christian, I prefer to use "God."

I never insisted anyone use any name. I'm just not going to capitalise the Christian god's name because -at least for me-, it is just another deity of the thousands people have come up with, and I'm not going to make him/her/it any more "special" than any other concept man ever came up with. I never said you have to use Yahweh. I use it because it's easier to use, just like Shiva, or Zeus or Bastet.

Edited by flitzthesoulreaper

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Values/morals are dynamic and forever evolving, to think that one set of values is superior to another one is silly coz we too will be outdated sooner or later

So we shouldn't think badly of racists because at one point in time, in another culture, killing a dude for the color of his skin was totally acceptable. dry.gif

 

No, we should be proud of our moral advancements. We should be just as proud of them as we are of our technological advancements. It doesn't matter if our morals and values will be outdated someday - they're still better than they were 50 years ago!

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So we shouldn't think badly of racists because at one point in time, in another culture, killing a dude for the color of his skin was totally acceptable.  dry.gif

 

No, we should be proud of our moral advancements. We should be just as proud of them as we are of our technological advancements. It doesn't matter if our morals and values will be outdated someday - they're still better than they were 50 years ago!

No, I said nothing about that, I just said that if you were living in 300 BC, and everybody had slaves, you too would have slaves coz it was a norm, having slaves wouldnt make you a bad person.. (when comparing different eras)

 

Im so not proud of our technological advancements, as they're literally killing our planet dry.gif

 

Regarding our moral "advancements" meh, my grandparents have been married for 60 years, my parents will get there too (and in those generations it was the norm), nowdays kids are having sex when they're 12, sexting and making pregnancy pacts, divorce rate is crazy, sex sells, who are kids idolizing ? the president ? the hard working people ? their teachers (nowdays teachers are scared of their students) or socialites with an Iq of a fly ?

So yeah, different era with different morals but not necessary improved ones, at least not all of them, thats certain....

Edited by The Evil Doer

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So yeah, different era with different morals but not necessary improved ones, at least not all of them, thats certain....

While I do agree with that, I don't agree with people that say that our morals are dropping because "we've taken god out of everything". I would go on about the decline of certain aspects thereof of society but I'm just going to say that proper education in schools to "evolve" our intellect, and education on relationships/sex-ed and the fact that parents are afraid to teach their kids respect/discipline (at least where I live) because of laws would do more for people than religion.

Edited by BlightWyvern

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No, I said nothing about that, I just said that if you were living in 300 BC, and everybody had slaves, you too would have slaves coz it was a norm, having slaves wouldnt make you a bad person.. (when comparing different eras)

 

Understood.

 

Regarding our moral "advancements" meh, my grandparents have been married for 60 years, my parents will get there too (and in those generations it was the norm), nowdays kids are having sex when they're 12, sexting and making pregnancy pacts, divorce rate is crazy, sex sells, who are kids idolizing ? the president ? the hard working people ? their teachers (nowdays teachers are scared of their students) or socialites with an Iq of a fly ?

 

In most 1st world countries: homosexuality, once punishable by death, is gaining acceptance; provisions are being made to promote and protect the rights of animals; endangered species are being bred and returned to the wild; healthcare is free or the government is taking steps toward free healthcare; the death penalty is abolished; women have rights to transportation, education, and political participation equal to men; freedom of religion is accepted; divorce is accepted. A hundred years ago, none or little of this was true. You're only looking at the negative.

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Regarding our moral "advancements" meh, my grandparents have been married for 60 years, my parents will get there too (and in those generations it was the norm), nowdays kids are having sex when they're 12, sexting and making pregnancy pacts, divorce rate is crazy, sex sells, who are kids idolizing ? the president ? the hard working people ? their teachers (nowdays teachers are scared of their students) or socialites with an Iq of a fly ?

Your grandparents grew up in a time where the nuclear family was shown to be the perfect family (even though it wasn't, and still isn't, the most common family type). Women were meant to marry and have children and do housework, while men had jobs. It wasn't the norm for people to divorce or not be married, as that implied that something was wrong with them. Even now, single parents, divorced or unmarried couples, etc, get the whispering behind the back and such because we're still just coming off of that time. Just because people are married doesn't make them better than anyone else, or say they have better morals.

 

Well it certainly doesn't help that we don't teach kids proper sex ed. There's nothing wrong with sex. Many religions teach that sex shouldn't be something to enjoy and is dirty and bad, when it isn't. It's perfectly natural and it's a way to bond with someone you love. It's a way of exploring and understanding your body and theirs, and for some it can just be fun in general. A lot of the time, religion preaches abstinence and places value on virgins. While I understand that being a virgin and marrying someone you're supposed to stay with forever ensures neither will have STIs, etc, it's a very unrealistic expectation, especially when you have curious teenagers that are just figuring out that their bodies are changing. I'd rather a 12-year-old have protected sex when they feel ready and want to experiment with sex than a just-married couple to have sex for the first time, only to find out they aren't all that compatible.

 

I've never heard of teachers being afraid of their students....maybe in certain areas of the country, but even at my school (which wasn't exactly a stellar place, as it had gang activity etc), teachers weren't afraid of their students. Honestly I think education needs to get out of its 1950's mentality, especially with summer vacation. That was intended for students who worked on a farm and needed the time off to be ready for the fall harvest. It's pretty much unnecessary now. The education system really needs to improve, and teachers need to get more competitive and teach students what they actually need. Some teachers out there are great, but I've known ones that only care about getting the student out of their class, giving out extra credit and bonus points, ugh.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure even our dumbest people now are a lot smarter than the dumbest people of the past. Even if their IQ is low, I seriously doubt it could ever possibly get as low as a fly.

 

 

 

As far as other morals, however, we ARE definitely improving. I'd say anything that benefits the most people is a step forward. We're slowly gaining more rights for women and minorities to make up for the ugly scars of the past, the LGBT community even has a lot more rights and less discrimination, etc etc. We're far from perfect but we are advancing. And the more we advance, the more we learn about what benefits society as a whole and thus the morals evolve and get better.

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I agree with everything both of you have said, I just said that its not all white and black, and that we dont have superior morals over other cultures/eras coz its always gonna be raised to believe "A" and feels morally right VS raised to believe "Z" and feels morally right... (A and Z being religion VS non-religion or cultural differences or whatever, there is no right or wrong coz neither side can prove anything)

 

 

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