Religion

[Strange Core]

I believe in God.... but disagree with much of what the Bible says.

Not to start anything in any way, but uhm, could you mind sharing what?

 

 

EDIT: @ High Lord: Don't mention it, I don't mind Besides it was my fault anyway, posting about scientific theory without much knowledge

Edited April 11, 2013 by Strange Core

[Skulexander]

I'm an atheist. I don't necessarily believe there CAN'T be gods or spirits or whatever it is you believe in, but I don't believe there are.

[greatguy]

LOVE this.

 

I have beliefs, maybe it can be called faith. I believe in God.... but disagree with much of what the Bible says. And honestly I love getting into healthy debates about religion with friends who *know* how to have healthy debates. But defending my beliefs to someone who believes every word of the Bible is The Word? It's stupid, because I will never convince them, and they will never convince me.

 

Despite certain issues I've had with religion, I do know what I believe, and I no longer (used to, but no longer) feel any need to attempt to "prove" anything to anyone.

Just out of curiosity, what do you believe? Which books of the Bible do you throw out?

 

Personally, I think that the belief that the Bible is the "Word of God" is silly. The Old Testament/Tanuch contains words that God said, but it itself is not "the word of God," whatever that's supposed to mean. The book of Ecclesiastes is not neccisarily a good worldview, and nobody should live like the author. And don't get me started on the Song of Songs.

 

The New Testament is...complicated. As I said earlier, I've thrown out Paul's writings and the book of Hebrews because they are inconsistent with the rest of the Bible. For example, Jeremiah 34:7:

 

For thus says YHWH: "David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man in my presence to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings, and to make sacrifices forever."

 

Matthew 5:17:

 

"Do not think that I have come to abolish [destroy, render vain] the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, shall pass from the Law until all is fulfilled."

 

In case you haven't noticed, Yahshua did not fulfill every prophecy, and heaven and earth are still here. Continuing:

 

"For whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

 

Similarly, 2 Timothy says, "You are aware that all who are in Asia have turned away from me." Paul then makes special mention of the church of Ephesus, which was one of the churches that rejected him. Revelation 2:

 

"I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and have found them to be false."

 

 

 

[TikindiDragon]

My original post was an exaggeration to illustrate that people are allowed to think/feel as they choose, as long as they're not trying to actively hurt anybody, e.g. try and force (non)religion on others, or keep gays from having equal rights.

An EXAGGERATION. To mirror how some people believe that homosexuals shouldn't have children because whatever reason. As in, it was meant to seem kind of irrational, that was the point.

I'm sorry you didn't understand.

 

Why you would express views you don't believe in, is entirely different. Besides, I was not implying anything along the lines of what you did. You implied someone such as me not only had no morals, but and I quote, "nothing better to hope for" which was, in all honesty, really triggering for somebody that is recovering from severe depression. While I may be taking that a little personal, I can testify that multiple people would be increasingly distraught if somebody said they had "nothing better to hope for" if they've ever been suicidal, actually I could list names of people that would be offended by that.

Again, my point was to mirror the irrationality of a lot of the people against homosexualty. In all honesty, I'm not as upset about religion as you would think from that post.

 

And if people should think before opening their mouths, why don't you start by not saying something you know will be offensive? All you had to say was that I should rephrase what I said, and I would have. I'm awaiting confirmation for an Aspergers diagnosis, so all I can say is that I don't really understand why things are offensive/not funny/upsetting until somebody spells it out for me sometimes, and sometimes I misread what people mean, okay? If I say something that comes out offensive or just plain off, I'm not trying to. All you have to do is let me know.

 

The point in making statements like that is that some people simply don't relise exactly *how* offensive they are being until someone does the same thing to them. Yes, I admit, it's shock tactics. I deliberately posted something I knew some poeple would take offence at. I wanted you to be offended. Because sometimes it's only turning the tables that makes people realise what's going on. In this case, if it's shock tactics that have worked then I'm unrepentant about using them.

 

I could turn your words back at you and I could say that my point was to mirror the irrationality that many young atheists on the internet seem to have about faith. Because I've lost count of the number of times I've seen atheists make comments like that in all seriousness - and then proceed to tell people how wrong they are when those people dare to be offended by it.

 

Incidently I have: a) been suicidal and treated for major depression on several occasions, and already have an Aspergers diagnosis myself. Neither of these have any relevance to the discussion.

[Kestra15]

Couple who believe in faith-healing allow second child to die.

 

What amazes me most of all is that the courts didn't remove their children from their care after the death of their first child through neglect.

[klinneah]

Couple who believe in faith-healing allow second child to die.

 

What amazes me most of all is that the courts didn't remove their children from their care after the death of their first child through neglect.

That's just...sad. I'd love to know which Bible they're reading, cause it definitely isn't the one I'm reading.

 

Their testimony about not going to doctors, calling it "a definite sin to trust in medical help and pills", reminds me of a story I've heard a few times in various incarnations. The gist of it goes like this: A man lives in an area where there is a devastating flood. By the middle of the morning, the water is up to the height of his kitchen table, so he goes into the attic. A boat comes rushing by, and the driver calls out "We have room for more!" The man waves them off, saying "Go save others, God will help me." By noon the water is up to the attic, so he climbs onto the roof. Another boat comes by, and the driver says "We have room for more!" Them, too, the man waves off, saying "God will help me." Well by midafternoon the water is up to his knees, and he is starting to feel nervous because he can't swim. A rescue helicopter comes by, and the pilot swings low so he can climb aboard. This, too, the man waves off, saying "Go and help other! God will help me!" By evening the man has drowned and is standing at the gates of heaven, complaining that God did not save him from drowning. God says "I sent two boats and a helicopter, what were you waiting for?"

[Banuk]

I'm an atheist, myself.

 

No offense to any Christians or anything, but I spent my entire young life being abused by a man who told me that God said I was nothing and that I deserved what I was getting, and grew up to see that the world is filled with hate and destruction and too many people either think that their loving God WANTS all of that or that said loving God is going to step in and stop it and they shouldn't have to do anything. Either way, that's not a power I want to follow.

 

Oh, and the whole, "We believe this so you all HAVE to." mentality is really irritating.

[Riverwillows]

I'm curious. Are there any Jewish people here? And what would your take on all this be?

 

I only ask, because I have seen mostly atheists, christians, or pagans on here. Not many Jewish people.

 

 

[NobleOwl]

I'm curious. Are there any Jewish people here?

 

*raises hand*

 

And what would your take on all this be?

 

My take on what, in particular?

[Riverwillows]

Never mind, I read a few pages back, I saw your posts. lol.

 

Just interested in different outlooks from different sides of religion.

[NobleOwl]

On the child who died through faith healing...I am of two minds.

 

Judaism itself believes that life is paramount. There are very few things that fall under "die rather than do" in Judaism. If you're starving, for example, it is a sin not to eat non-kosher food if it is available. Or, it is perfectly permissible to have a pig-valve replacement if you have a heart valve issue.

 

So, this situation shouldn't happen in Judaism.

 

What amazes me most of all is that the courts didn't remove their children from their care after the death of their first child through neglect.

 

This particular question hits very close to home for me. I grew up on reservation, as many of you know. On reservation, there are a lot of people who eschew modern medicine. They literally view it as poison.

 

So, if someone falls sick and they take them to a medicine man or an herbalist for treatment is that neglect? If they honestly believe that this treatment or that treatment will kill a part of them, is it still neglect?

 

Then that raises the issue of vaccinations. I struggle every time it's time to get one of my children vaccinated. I turn into a paranoid weeping mess. I hate myself for the next month, every time. I feel like a horrible parent. I usually make Talalitha take them if she can, because she doesn't know as much about them as I do, and she can trust them easier, where I have to fight myself not to say "wait, stop" every single time.

[Alpha1]

So, if someone falls sick and they take them to a medicine man or an herbalist for treatment is that neglect? If they honestly believe that this treatment or that treatment will kill a part of them, is it still neglect?

 

If modern medicine is available to them, then I think so.

 

Then that raises the issue of vaccinations. I struggle every time it's time to get one of my children vaccinated. I turn into a paranoid weeping mess. I hate myself for the next month, every time. I feel like a horrible parent. I usually make Talalitha take them if she can, because she doesn't know as much about them as I do, and she can trust them easier, where I have to fight myself not to say "wait, stop" every single time.

 

Why?

 

[NobleOwl]

If modern medicine is available to them, then I think so.

 

Why should they trust it though? We're talking about people who have no reason to trust it.

 

Why?

 

Because I work in medical research, and I know what can happen with every vaccination. I am the only person with kids in the lab, that I know of, who actually vaccinates.

 

It's an issue of knowing too much.

[Spelunker]

What are some of the risks?

[NobleOwl]

What are some of the risks?

Let me be clear: I realise that all risks are "rare" and the most common of the "rare" are very mild.

 

And it depends on the vaccine. Here is the CDC's official listing.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

 

 

[Kestra15]

So, if someone falls sick and they take them to a medicine man or an herbalist for treatment is that neglect? If they honestly believe that this treatment or that treatment will kill a part of them, is it still neglect?

 

Then that raises the issue of vaccinations. I struggle every time it's time to get one of my children vaccinated. I turn into a paranoid weeping mess. I hate myself for the next month, every time. I feel like a horrible parent. I usually make Talalitha take them if she can, because she doesn't know as much about them as I do, and she can trust them easier, where I have to fight myself not to say "wait, stop" every single time.

If the result of not seeking appropriate medical help for the child results in death or lasting harm to the child, yes, it is neglect. And vaccinations are something I have strong feelings about as well; vaccinations are safe, effective and prevent not only your (general 'your,' not specific) child from getting ill but also contributes to the herd immunity of your community.

 

At the moment the UK is seeing a measles outbreak that has hospitalised nearly a thousand, close to a hundred of which are in 'serious' condition, and I believe two have died already. That shouldn't happen. We have a safe, effective vaccine that every child should have had, but because of the hysteria from a single person's poor research millions of people have not been vaccinated against it. The result is we now have a disease that was very well controlled and contained is now reaching epidemic levels due to lack of individual and herd immunity. Vaccinations have allowed us to practically wipe out diseases that were massive killers and allow us to effectively combat other diseases that could also be fatal, but instead become something minor or even not a problem at all.

[titinian.masquarade]

Vaccinations have allowed us to practically wipe out diseases that were massive killers and allow us to effectively combat other diseases that could also be fatal, but instead become something minor or even not a problem at all.

Jumping in here, vaccinations and herd immunity serves to protect those that cannot take vaccinations for medical reasons. People will say "It's my choice." or "It's my right as a parent to choose whether my child gets vaccinated." But you effect so many others that it's not worth it.

[Obscure_Trash]

The additional medicine discussion was merged with the new medicine topic.

[georgexu94]

<3 Hi friends!

So here I am in this serious discussion thread.

So I'll first say I'm completely confuse with my religion and/or beliefs. I'm a so-called Christian (by name; I don't deserve to be called as such actually)

Firstly, I'm currently having doubts with religion, that's why I'm here.

After reading texts from the Old Testament, I realised that God is portrayed as punishing and cruel. But after that, in the New Testament, during Jesus time and after, he is kind and loving. So I keep asking why the sudden change?

Secondly, my dad is non Christian but he's so kind, generous and just. But if the preaching of Christianity is right, then good works is useless. Only faith and grace will save us. This is unfair.

Thirdly, I read the profile of someone who I admire. Yes, it's Cassowary. I find her of great principle. She have some quotes from wise men to which I agree with. One thing is, two quotes I have which I equally agree but make me doubt life. Here are they:

 

"I own that I cannot see as plainly as others do, and as I should wish to do, evidence of design and beneficence on all sides of us. There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice."

~Charles Darwin

 

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

~Marcus Aurelius

 

I apologise for my current situation. I lack organisation. I just don't know how and what to say. I agree with Aurelius quote so much. That makes it hard to believe in a just god.

Thank you for any enlightenment

 

Love,

George Xu

 

Edit:

I'm a Baptist Christian, but I'm always interested in learning about other religions. I have friends who are Buddhists (did I spell that right?), Muslims, Athiests, Catholics, Jews, and so many others, and I want to learn more about them.

This describes me as well <3

Edited April 27, 2013 by georgexu94

[TikindiDragon]

Not all branches of Christianity preach that salvation is only from faith and grace, just as an FYI. I know that's the common one among Calvinist Protestant Churches, but it isn't the only concept out there in Christianity.

 

On a personal note, having studied the Bible, I would observe that on the day of judgement the person who has led a Christ-like life without ever having gone to a church would probably fare a lot better than the devout man who went to church every Sunday after getting extremely drunk and beating his wife every Saturday.

[HeatherMarie]

If only Christian faith will save us, it must be awfully lonely up there in heaven, given the vast amount of people who have faith and beliefs but are of different religions.

 

Different religions believe different things, different churches within the same religion preach different things, and not all of those are found in the Bible. In general, I think you need to figure out what *you* believe, regardless of where that "fits".

 

I'm at that place right now. I attend Bible Study each week and I'm learning a lot about Jesus and God's plans, but I'm also learning a lot about myself and faith in general. The woman conducting these Bible Studies has said, during a discussion over a passage, that the whole "repenting and living for God" thing can be very overstated. God has plans for us, but we don't necessarily have to pray and go to church and "live for God" in order to follow those plans. The interpretation I've gotten is that if you are open enough to accept guidance, whether by a Pastor, a leader, a friend, a dream, then God can reach you regardless of whether you think of Him daily.

 

(And seriously, I'm not a religious person at all, so I feel sort of strange saying that, but..... Yeah)

[georgexu94]

Not all branches of Christianity preach that salvation is only from faith and grace, just as an FYI. I know that's the common one among Calvinist Protestant Churches, but it isn't the only concept out there in Christianity.

 

On a personal note, having studied the Bible, I would observe that on the day of judgement the person who has led a Christ-like life without ever having gone to a church would probably fare a lot better than the devout man who went to church every Sunday after getting extremely drunk and beating his wife every Saturday.

Why yes, I agree. Thanks so much

[Riverwillows]

Saw a great sign on the net today, totally what I think:

 

 

 

Yeah...why do they???

[Moeru]

If the result of not seeking appropriate medical help for the child results in death or lasting harm to the child, yes, it is neglect. And vaccinations are something I have strong feelings about as well; vaccinations are safe, effective and prevent not only your (general 'your,' not specific) child from getting ill but also contributes to the herd immunity of your community.

 

At the moment the UK is seeing a measles outbreak that has hospitalised nearly a thousand, close to a hundred of which are in 'serious' condition, and I believe two have died already. That shouldn't happen. We have a safe, effective vaccine that every child should have had, but because of the hysteria from a single person's poor research millions of people have not been vaccinated against it. The result is we now have a disease that was very well controlled and contained is now reaching epidemic levels due to lack of individual and herd immunity. Vaccinations have allowed us to practically wipe out diseases that were massive killers and allow us to effectively combat other diseases that could also be fatal, but instead become something minor or even not a problem at all.

Absolutely right. All you have to do is look at photos of Smallpox victims, and their immense and unbelievable pain as their entire skin is cracked and weeping over their entire body and they burn up with fever... or polio victims ... children with mumps, throats swollen up so large they can't even eat or swallow... and then realize that we have effectively ERASED that kind of suffering from our population through the simple use of vaccines.

In some countries where vaccines are not used, these diseases are still everywhere in the population, destroying families and killing children.

 

It's completely insane to think that NOT vaccinating is a better solution. Study about twenty minutes of Victorian history to see the levels of death (infectious disease, due to crowded conditions and poor sanitation, were at their HIGHEST in the 1860s in England, higher than during the black death) and suffering and pain... that have been simply destroyed with sanitation and vaccination.

[Spelunker]

Absolutely right. All you have to do is look at photos of Smallpox victims, and their immense and unbelievable pain as their entire skin is cracked and weeping over their entire body and they burn up with fever... or polio victims ... children with mumps, throats swollen up so large they can't even eat or swallow... and then realize that we have effectively ERASED that kind of suffering from our population through the simple use of vaccines.

In some countries where vaccines are not used, these diseases are still everywhere in the population, destroying families and killing children.

 

It's completely insane to think that NOT vaccinating is a better solution. Study about twenty minutes of Victorian history to see the levels of death (infectious disease, due to crowded conditions and poor sanitation, were at their HIGHEST in the 1860s in England, higher than during the black death) and suffering and pain... that have been simply destroyed with sanitation and vaccination.

This

 

 

Also, as an interesting sidenote, I'm reading my statement of faith tomorrow, and being confirmed on the 19th. (protestant christian)

 

 

The statement of faith is actually really cool. It isn't just reciting a premade one- you make up your own. :0

Edited May 7, 2013 by Spelunker