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Admitting to killing the boy via sorcery after being tortured. I don't see a non-religious cause in that at all.

Sorry, the article I read did not say when she admitted to it. The way I read it, she admitted to it and the crowd got riled up, then tortured and killed her. Do you have links to more information on this, for a clearer picture of what happened?

 

Again, my point is that who you hear about getting hurt because of others' "faith" depends on where you are and what kinds of channels you have to hear about it. Chalking it up to one and excluding others from the possibility of it is biased and simply not true.

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I've only been reading along with the last couple of posts, so I am sorry I was out of line, but I thought I would jump in.

 

First off, any religion that you look at you will be able to find some group somewhere that has done something horrific. You can also look at people who are atheists or anti-religion and find similar groups of people. Finding one group of people should not condemn everyone in that religion. Finding bad people who don't follow any religion should not condemn everyone who doesn't have a religion.

 

In short, I think it is important to realize that people are just people. Period. There are good people and there are bad people. While religion has, yes, a history of being twisted or even sometime just used to support harming others - I honestly think people will find excuses for doing bad things without the use of religion if necessary.

 

When thinking about religion and whether it has any benefit, does anyone focus not on the negative things it has been used to do but instead the good? Of any of the Charity, Compassion, or so forth that comes out of it? While there is obviously always going to be some bad things that religion will be used for, I think most people follow a religion because they look at the good things that can occur. Because they see it as bringing hope, peace, or even an alliance of 'brother and sisters in the faith' that they can connect with. It is like a huge social network that is trying to find a way to be good, and as usual a whole bunch of politics always get involved by it involving a huge group of people... Maybe that is a bad analogy, but the point is - everywhere there are good people and bad people. I really don't think that religion changes that, though I believe it /hopes/ to make people better - even if sometimes intolerance, unkindness, and prejudices result. I mean, you could technically say the same thing for people who are not religious and who are anti-religion. Not everyone is like that, obviously, but there will always be some.

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Just want to say Happy Easter/Ostara/Sixth Day of Passover/Generic Sunday/anything I missed to people of all faiths floating around here. smile.gif I love how respectful people are in this thread and how open people are to questions.

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I've only been reading along with the last couple of posts, so I am sorry I was out of line, but I thought I would jump in.

 

First off, any religion that you look at you will be able to find some group somewhere that has done something horrific. You can also look at people who are atheists or anti-religion and find similar groups of people. Finding one group of people should not condemn everyone in that religion. Finding bad people who don't follow any religion should not condemn everyone who doesn't have a religion.

 

In short, I think it is important to realize that people are just people. Period. There are good people and there are bad people. While religion has, yes, a history of being twisted or even sometime just used to support harming others - I honestly think people will find excuses for doing bad things without the use of religion if necessary.

 

When thinking about religion and whether it has any benefit, does anyone focus not on the negative things it has been used to do but instead the good? Of any of the Charity, Compassion, or so forth that comes out of it? While there is obviously always going to be some bad things that religion will be used for, I think most people follow a religion because they look at the good things that can occur. Because they see it as bringing hope, peace, or even an alliance of 'brother and sisters in the faith' that they can connect with. It is like a huge social network that is trying to find a way to be good, and as usual a whole bunch of politics always get involved by it involving a huge group of people... Maybe that is a bad analogy, but the point is - everywhere there are good people and bad people. I really don't think that religion changes that, though I believe it /hopes/ to make people better - even if sometimes intolerance, unkindness, and prejudices result. I mean, you could technically say the same thing for people who are not religious and who are anti-religion. Not everyone is like that, obviously, but there will always be some.

I personally hold that religion itself is not a bad thing--it is only a bad thing when it has been warped and twisted into something it was never meant to be by those who would abuse it for their own ends. Or if it IS a religion of intolerance and hatred and causing harm.

 

That said, I personally hate when people of any group--religious or not--get all pissed off when people DO bring up some of the negatives that people of their group have committed--and refuse to acknowledge it. Yes, you're allowed to get angry!

 

But you cannot just sweep the bad under the rug with a "BUT I'M NOT LIKE THAT" and have it vanish.

 

You need to acknowledge the harm, the badness, the corruption. And you need to work to end it--this can be as simple as speaking out against it, sharing the better messages that your side has to offer, being an example of a decent human being. If you have the means (both financially, materialistically, AND physically/mentally/emotionally), then get active in campaigns to prove the good in your group--and work towards reform to help end the corruption if possible. This is easier with organized religion, I think, since those who don't have a religion don't exactly have corrupt leaders who can be replaced with honest wo/men.

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Just want to say Happy Easter/Ostara/Sixth Day of Passover/Generic Sunday/anything I missed to people of all faiths floating around here. smile.gif I love how respectful people are in this thread and how open people are to questions.

Thank you, and ditto - Happy Easter/Ostara/Sixth Day of Passover/Generic Sunday/anything I missed to people of all faiths floating around here!

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I personally hold that religion itself is not a bad thing--it is only a bad thing when it has been warped and twisted into something it was never meant to be by those who would abuse it for their own ends.  Or if it IS a religion of intolerance and hatred and causing harm.

 

That said, I personally hate when people of any group--religious or not--get all pissed off when people DO bring up some of the negatives that people of their group have committed--and refuse to acknowledge it.  Yes, you're allowed to get angry! 

 

But you cannot just sweep the bad under the rug with a "BUT I'M NOT LIKE THAT" and have it vanish.

 

You need to acknowledge the harm, the badness, the corruption.  And you need to work to end it--this can be as simple as speaking out against it, sharing the better messages that your side has to offer, being an example of a decent human being.  If you have the means (both financially, materialistically, AND physically/mentally/emotionally), then get active in campaigns to prove the good in your group--and work towards reform to help end the corruption if possible.  This is easier with organized religion, I think, since those who don't have a religion don't exactly have corrupt leaders who can be replaced with honest wo/men.

 

Amen to this.

 

And don't worry, I do acknowledge that there have bad things done in the name of religion and sometimes for religion - and I am actually really for religions/churches admitting when they happen. I suppose I like the human part of that, the idea of making mistakes, acknowledging it, and seeking both to make things right and improve. Sadly, there is a problem of thinking it is better to appear perfect than human sometimes I think... Maybe it is out of fear that people won't understand if you make a mistake? I'm not really sure...

 

It is hard though, I think, to be part of a religion and see an obscure section do bad things and then see your whole church condemned. This may be a bad example, but I know an Islam woman who is not from the middle east and struggled with people automatically assuming she thought it was good to kill people to get into heaven. At least where she had grown up and with what she had been taught, this was far from the religion she believed herself to be part of.

 

Maybe I am explaining it wrong, but it is hard when you are trying to be the best you can be as an individual and feeling helpless as everything around you gets twisted and bent out of shape by a few (or even sadder, by those who you were supposed to trust who led your faith). I'm not saying that sweeping things under the rug is right, but perhaps it will explain why people tend to respond with "BUT I'M NOT LIKE THAT" and also struggle to view the truth of wrongs their religion makes or may even prefer to try and not address it. If their leaders try and hide it, and they themselves have built their lives/foundation on their religion, imagine how hard it would be to see the people you have always relied on doing wrong things - or to acknowledge that someone following what you view as so good to turn out so wrong by twisting your religion. In the long run, though, I think it is better to acknowledge things and advocate for change. I think everyone is willing to admit this world is far from perfect, but for the most part everyone is attempting to make it a better place.

 

But I think I realize more of what you are saying now (or what was being said), but it doesn't change that sometimes I wish that the good religions do was sometimes also emphasized. I think I feel this way though because I hope it will encourage good and help get rid of the corruption or misuse of religion... well that and because I have liked some of the things religions do sometimes. : )

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And predestination is the worst of all. The idea that God damns or saves people depending in how God made them behave is the most repulsive and blasphemous of them all. Never mind the passages of the Bible that show this to be false, the notion that God would damn people for submitting to his will is utter blasphemy.

 

In short, belief in Paul's doctrines cannot be reconciled with "You shall love YHWH your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might." It is impossible to love a ruthless, irrational, tyrannical god.

This is a rather hostile, simplistic, and in my opinion, erroneous description of the Doctrines of Grace (i.e. Predestination or "Calvinism"). I'd be glad to discuss the relevant doctrinal issues with you over private message. I'd also love to discuss your views of Jesus himself.

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I just saw this pic. Wondering what you all thought about it? I personally agree.

 

 

user posted image

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I agree. None of the belong in public school. If you want religion in your school, go parochial. Otherwise, stay out of public schools.

 

BUT...if you insist on one religion being in public schools, then ALL religions will be too.

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I just saw this pic. Wondering what you all thought about it? I personally agree.

 

 

user posted image

I agree completely. Freedom of speech should include freedom to express your beliefs in symbol form (provided it is not obscene or directly threatening to someone). Furthermore, schools are a place to learn, so I tend to be particularly against censorship of facts - like the fact that those beliefs exist.

Edited by Awdz Bodkins

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There is a difference between "pretending they don't exist" and not preaching in schools.

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There is a difference between "pretending they don't exist" and not preaching in schools.

But at what point does "mentioning" or even "giving a few facts about" cross the line into "preaching"?

 

When I was in 1st grade, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and coloring pictures of Santa and his reindeer still showed up regularly in the month of December, I had a Jewish teacher and a handful of Jewish classmates. Rather than letting those few kids feel terribly left out of holiday discussions, or forbidding holiday discussions, Mrs. A spent an afternoon telling the class about Chanukah, telling us the story of the Maccabees and the miracle of the lights, teaching us to play Dreidel, introducing us to latkes (which we made right in the classroom) and she also brought in an electric menorah that used C-7 style decorative bulbs (obviously no open flames in the classroom) which we lit up bulb by bulb for eight days.

 

I certainly wouldn't call that "preaching" Judaism to the class, just showcasing the fact that not only were there more religions around than just various denominations of Christianity, but also that people of other religions really were perfectly good people and no different than the rest of us.

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There are proofs that what the Bible tells the Christians are true and genuine.

 

Anyway, this might sound a stupid question, but what's the real difference between Catholic and Christianity? :/

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As a former Catholic, I can tell you this:

 

Catholics place a lot more importance in ritual in their services. They believe in the transmutation of the Eucharist, is really the body and blood of Jesus. They believe in the Virgin Mary, that she gave birth thru Immaculate Conception, and afterwards, remained pure, that Joseph was merely a helpmate and foster father of Jesus, that he and Mary never had physical relations. That sins may only be cleansed after confessing to an ordained priest, who has the authority under God to absolve said sins. Nuns and Priests are "married" to God, and therefore, supposed to remain abstinent, giving up the physical world for the holy spiritual one.

 

Oh, and that Peter was the first Catholic Pope, that when Jesus conferred upon him the leadership of the church, it was the Catholic church and doctrine he was talking about.

 

Those are just some things, but the more obvious and important ones.

Edited by Riverwillows

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There are proofs that what the Bible tells the Christians are true and genuine.

 

Anyway, this might sound a stupid question, but what's the real difference between Catholic and Christianity? :/

Think of Christianity as a big umbrella, and all the different churches (branches of Chrisitanity) as the spokes on the umbrella.

 

Mind referencing those proofs?

 

Remember, also, that the Bible did not magically descend from a cloud, direct from God. It was written by a bunch of Jesus's disciples thousands of years ago.

 

Since times have changed so much, you really can't read the Bible literally, because civil rights have progressed so much from those times. You have to think of what it was saying in that context, and apply it to your own situation the best you can.

 

Just in case you were wondering, I'm currently in Christian confirmation, as a Protestant Christian, which is awesome, btw.

 

The church community is amazing.

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Christianity encompasses everything. Catholic Church is just a Christian denomination, in the same way as Protestant and Orthodox Church are.

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Also, Riverwillows- Jesus was a Jew.

 

He did not intend to start a new religion, only to try and reform Judaism. :3

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Christianity encompasses everything. Catholic Church is just a Christian denomination, in the same way as Protestant and Orthodox Church are.

Not according to Catholic doctrine. The original Church Jesus founded with Peter is the Catholic Church, all the other christian faiths are offshoots of the Catholic one.

 

Just telling you what they preach and believe.

 

Yes, Spelunker, I know this. I am merely telling you what Catholics believe, as a former Catholic who is "in the know".

 

I myself am not technically Christian in any way shape or form. Not anymore.

Edited by Riverwillows

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OK, I respect that.

 

However, remember this- if Jesus was so good, he'd have to be pretty good at fooling people and using double standards to get away with founding his own religion. I think doing something like that would come across, at least to some, as self-centered, well-intentioned though (according to Catholicism, I'm guessing here) it may have been.

 

EDIT: Oh, OK, good that you know! :3

 

Out of curiosity, why did you move away from the Christian faith?

 

EDIT 2:

Not according to Catholic doctrine. The original Church Jesus founded with Peter is the Catholic Church, all the other christian faiths are offshoots of the Catholic one.

 

Just telling you what they preach and believe.

In terms of defining the different branches of Christianity as they stand now, though, as opposed to where they came from, the umbrella analogy is a pretty darned good way to explain it. smile.gif

Edited by Spelunker

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Ah, but who ever said Religion was ever logical??

 

laugh.gif

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Out of curiosity, why did you move away from the Christian faith?

No, won't open up that very personal can of worms. Suffice to say, I got tired of all the lies, blind dogma, and disregard most christian faiths seem to have on others who are not of them.

 

I am not like that. I found a niche that I can live with, that's more of a bit of a few different beliefs, most not christian. I am content in my heart.

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Ah, but who ever said Religion was ever logical??

 

laugh.gif

Exactly. They can say say that they are original ones (ok, they are), but that doesn't change the fact that now, the word Christian can have more meanings besides Catholic.

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Not according to Catholic doctrine. The original Church Jesus founded with Peter is the Catholic Church, all the other christian faiths are offshoots of the Catholic one.

Following on from this:

 

For Strange Core: Catholic = Christian. End of story. Not all Christians are Catholic, but all Catholics are Christian. Regardless of what some US Protestant denominations like to teach about the Catholic Church.

 

Also, at least with regards Western Christianity, what Riverwillows says is true - most Christian denominations *did* originate from the root of the Catholic Church. Certainly any 'Protestant' group has it's roots in the Reformation split from the Roman Catholics in the 16th Century. Prior to that there was a 'Great Schism' in the 11th Century when the Easterm and Western (Catholic) Orthodox Churches split (incidently some of the Eastern Churches are now back in communion with the Roman Catholic Church and regarded as part of the same broad family). The two earliest 'splits' from the basic Orthodox root were in 431 and 451 when the Assyrian and Oriental Orthodox churches respectively split off (Incidental note - both branches have now also issues joint statements with the Roman Catholics effectively bringing them back into the broader Catholic Communion).

 

But, Christian history lesson aside, the broad theory is right - if you follow a 'Christian' faith with it's basis in the West then, yes, your Church originally sprang from Roman Catholicism.

 

Incidental note - it drives me round the bend when people talk of 'Catholics and Christians' as if they are two seperate things. They really aren't, people. It makes about as much sense as saying 'Londoners and Englishmen'. The first part covers and includes the second.

Edited by TikindiDragon

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