Religion

[coo_]

Similar to a few of you, I was raised Catholic but discovered it wasn't really right for me. I went to Catholic school from kindergarten to senior year of high school, so the basic teachings are pretty much stamped into me. I still celebrate Easter and Christmas with my family; my family still are Catholic so I go along with their traditions to make them happy, but I really just think of the holidays as celebrating family, friends, and what I'm thankful for.

 

I guess I would classify myself as mostly atheist, sometimes pantheist. I've always felt a really strong spiritual affinity to nature, but I haven't quite looked into pantheism enough to identify as a pantheist. The main reason I turned away from Catholicism is because it is centered around an anthropomorphic god. This, to me, doesn't feel quite right - as a student studying biology and devoting my life to wildlife conservation, it doesn't make sense to me that we (humans) would be the center of all existence. With the millions of species in this world, I just can't see it. I am glad that Catholicism instilled in me a heavy bit of guilt, though - do not lie, steal, cheat, Jesus' teachings to accept everyone (though the Catholic church forgets this one sometimes). So I guess I'm glad I was raised with a set of basic guidelines in life.

 

But that's just me. I respect anyone else's views. You do you. ^.^

Edited February 12, 2017 by coo_

[HeatherMarie]

Sorry for bumping up such an old thread, but I've been thinking about something lately and I know a lot of users around here are people who's opinions I respect, so.... If anyone would like to weigh in on this? 

 

Do you think it's strange that I tithe consistently despite not being ready to commit to the church, and not really knowing yet what exactly I believe or how much of what they preach I actually believe? It's just been on my mind a bit because a few weeks ago a friend expressed surprise when I mentioned tithing, because she knows I'm still trying to figure things out for myself and I'm not really sure where I stand when it comes to God and the Bible and such.

 

This is what I've been thinking: I don't have much money, I'm very much below poverty level, but I really like to give to good causes when I'm able to. I've given many times to the local Humane Society, and to No Kid Hungry, for example. I kind of see this the same way. I've attended enough services at this church to feel that they are a good church, to feel that they are preaching in a way that is welcoming and non-discriminatory and makes people really listen and think. I've interacted with enough of the people there to know that there are many, many people who have benefited from this church in some way. And I know this church doesn't simply preach God's word, they are very active in our community, they hold fundraisers for the more in-need schools and donate food and supplies to children, they have a big van they take around town to hand out supplies to the homeless, etc. So, the way I see it, it doesn't really matter what I personally believe regarding God and all that. This church does good, and I want to help with that if I can. 

 

But.... Is it strange that I do that when I'm still so questioning about my own beliefs?

 

(Bit more explanation, I've been very reluctant with religious matters in the past due to many churches insisting I'm going to hell for being gay (I once had a preacher lecture me about it for a whole hour). I know I believe in some sort of higher power, but beyond that I'm not really sure. I'm very hesitant about doing anything to 'commit' to this church, like baptism or whatever, until I figure out more. I've only been attending this church for about 6 months, and not every single week, and it's the first church I've *ever* attended with any sort of regularity.)

[Confused Cat]

@HeatherMarie

(I didn't know the word "tithe", and leo.org translates it as something I think was a medieval church tax, but I guess it means donating money to the church?)

I don't think it is strange, especially if you are sure the money is really used for objectively good purposes. I consider myself an atheist (more or less - if there is something like a God, I don't think it has anything to do with the Bible or other books), but I support faith-based charities sometimes when I'm convinced they do something good.

I think as long as someone does good things, in most situations it doesn't matter why they're doing it.

[JavaTigress]

@Confused Cat- that is pretty much what it DOES mean, these days!

I don't think it is ODD, at all, @HeatherMarie

I think there are people want to give to others and such that wouldn't necessarily claim any religious belief at all. Not everyone who is part of a church gives as they should ( THOUGH I would point out that we are ENCOURAGED to give), either. So... the two aren't NECESSARILY the same? All of that is me speaking as a Christian, here, for whatever that is worth.

 

Therefor not so weird if you are still questioning and figuring things out.

Edited April 29, 2018 by JavaTigress

[The Dragoness]

@HeatherMarie, that doesn't sound strange to me at all. I think a part of why many people attend church is the welcoming nature you mentioned--you don't have to be certain that you have certain beliefs to be there. If this church gives you the opportunity to give to the community and feel wholesome, whether or not you're committed to the church and 100% a Christian/Catholic/etc. shouldn't matter. Even if you never do find a religion that fits your beliefs, you're happy with how things are, and I think that's the point of religion in the first place. 

 

I don't personally go to church (I was raised by a mother who loathed her strict Catholic upbringing, now I'm Atheist) so I'm not on the same page entirely, but I do enjoy donating to and volunteering with local organizations, including some that even have religious roots. As long as its for a good cause, I have no problem with that.

[Laryal]

On 4/29/2018 at 12:24 AM, HeatherMarie said:

Sorry for bumping up such an old thread, but I've been thinking about something lately and I know a lot of users around here are people who's opinions I respect, so.... If anyone would like to weigh in on this? 

 

Do you think it's strange that I tithe consistently despite not being ready to commit to the church, and not really knowing yet what exactly I believe or how much of what they preach I actually believe? It's just been on my mind a bit because a few weeks ago a friend expressed surprise when I mentioned tithing, because she knows I'm still trying to figure things out for myself and I'm not really sure where I stand when it comes to God and the Bible and such.

 

This is what I've been thinking: I don't have much money, I'm very much below poverty level, but I really like to give to good causes when I'm able to. I've given many times to the local Humane Society, and to No Kid Hungry, for example. I kind of see this the same way. I've attended enough services at this church to feel that they are a good church, to feel that they are preaching in a way that is welcoming and non-discriminatory and makes people really listen and think. I've interacted with enough of the people there to know that there are many, many people who have benefited from this church in some way. And I know this church doesn't simply preach God's word, they are very active in our community, they hold fundraisers for the more in-need schools and donate food and supplies to children, they have a big van they take around town to hand out supplies to the homeless, etc. So, the way I see it, it doesn't really matter what I personally believe regarding God and all that. This church does good, and I want to help with that if I can. 

 

But.... Is it strange that I do that when I'm still so questioning about my own beliefs?

 

(Bit more explanation, I've been very reluctant with religious matters in the past due to many churches insisting I'm going to hell for being gay (I once had a preacher lecture me about it for a whole hour). I know I believe in some sort of higher power, but beyond that I'm not really sure. I'm very hesitant about doing anything to 'commit' to this church, like baptism or whatever, until I figure out more. I've only been attending this church for about 6 months, and not every single week, and it's the first church I've *ever* attended with any sort of regularity.)

 

Hello on tithing it is not how much you give it is that you do give there is a story in the bible about a woman giving all she had. Now what he ment was she gave more than the rest cause she gave with her heart. I hope this helped you.

 

Mark 12:41-44 King James Version (KJV)

41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Laryal

[Nagapie]

I was raised Lutheran and realized pretty early in my life that it wasn't the religion for me. Still had to stay a part of the church until I was 18 due to my mother being afraid of how her older relatives would see it if I left the church. I had to take Christian classes at school for years while finding everything we studied there completely ridiculous. I got pretty fed up towards the end and basically just started to look forward to all the moral debates we had in class about controversial subjects such as abortion or euthanasia as I knew I would disagree with most of the group. I needed some sort of an outlet for my frustration and as such chose to be pretty active and vocal, loudly questioning things while still staying civil in most of my arguments. However, I do still remember one of the debates I had with another kid ended with them saying something to the effect of "well the Bible says this so it must be" and me responding to it with "honestly, I don't give a s**t about your bible". Good times. 😅

 

Nowadays I'd say that I'm an irreligious atheist. I feel like the world would be a better place if religions simply ceased to be. I acknowledge that religion has also driven humanity further to some degree amidst all the blood baths it has caused in history, but I still believe that in the modern setting we as a species would be much better off not believing in and starting wars for nonexistent invisible entities. One of my biggest motivators to this is the animal cruelty that goes on every day in the world due to ceremonial sacrifices, practices such as halal and just the general ignorance of people. Ignorance and atrocity often fueled by the disgusting belief that God supposedly made animals for man to use. That said, I don't really seek confrontation with religious people anymore like I used to as a youngster. I have Christian friends I get along with just fine despite our differing opinions and I feel that's how it should be too - to each their own.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Nagapie

[Gluria]

I'd say I'm something like an agnostic, strongly anti-religious, sometimes anti-theist person.

To be completely honest, religion scares me. I get extremely uncomfortable around very religious people who take their books literally. And religion that has political power downright terrifies me.

 

I don't know whether there is something out there. I think there might be? Probably? But I don't really like the thought and I strongly oppose the biblical/monotheist God. Existing or not, I don't want anything to do with them.

[Awdz]

"I love this interpretation of a prayer"

This interpretation of what prayer is has been shared lately. When I first saw it, someone commented that they appreciated the separation of prayer and religion within it. That made me do a big double take, because church is where I learned to pray. Then I thought more about it.

 

To me, prayer is conversation/connection with God. Our Creator is not restricted to any building, location, or single type of act; neither is our connection with God. God is present with us in every aspect of our lives, so that connection/conversation can happen in anything we experience/do. It does not have to be affiliated with any religion, though many people become more open to it when actively thinking of God and worshipping in a formal way. One of the signs we made that connection is an uplifting of our spirits, joy to our souls.

 

Also as I see it, given that God loves all of us, showing care for others is showing care for what God loves.  This piece is right on that it is a means of prayer.

[Kazmirl]

Myself being a Self-Practice Wicca, my studies have made me realize that the only true fact I can believe, is that I could be wrong, but I could also be right in only one way. I have no way to prove that someone else's faith is a cry into the dark, because mine could be just the same. I follow some Hindu, Budhism and Baptist practices alongside my own Wicca. 

[Harebelle]

10 hours ago, Kazmirl said:

Myself being a Self-Practice Wicca, my studies have made me realize that the only true fact I can believe, is that I could be wrong, but I could also be right in only one way. I have no way to prove that someone else's faith is a cry into the dark, because mine could be just the same. I follow some Hindu, Budhism and Baptist practices alongside my own Wicca. 

I think that's a mature thought process regarding religion, and the world would be a much better place if everyone thought the same.

 

I think that Ego and fear of uncertainty make people lash out to "prove" their religion is the right one, because having doubts and considering that it might just be stories terrifies some people.

 

I don't necessarily have a problem with religion and magical thinking if it's on a personal level, but when people decide reality and how other people live their lives should take a back seat in favour of their religion, I get annoyed. I think the people living and feeling and suffering around us right now are more important than what may happen after death. 

[JustAGhost]

I would call myself an Atheist, even though I'm offically Catholic. Since I grow up in a fairly religious enviroment, I can understand why people believe in a god or gods for that matter.

But being part of religion since I was a little child I realized that this world view is not for me. In my eyes there it's highly unlogical that a powerful and highly intelligent creature created everyone and everything. Something really stupid is that we have to take Christian classes or "Ethik" (which is kind like philosphy class, I suppose?) at school until highschool. We really didn't learnt anything there, except something like "God is love", which was basic knowledge. Seriously, not joking here.

However, regardless of all the nonsense we've learnt, the Christian classes made me at least respect Christians - not talking about the higher members of the church, like the pope, I despise them with a passion, but about normal religious people. Especially in later classes we had to view our beliefs critically and they were surprisingly open minded. We had the topic "Love" in year 8, I think and there was a section about homosexual relationships and it was amazing to see that the book said that the book actually accepts gay relationships and called it normal.

What I also appreciate is that there a Christian organisations that help people. I'm for example part of Die Johanniter, which is an aid organization of the Orden of St. John in Germany. Yes, there were wars in the past in the name of the church (like in medieval times) and there is still corruption, but Christianity did also good things, don't forget that.

I also don't know any Christian that is a fanatic. They're aware that most of the things that is written in the bible is false. They support the LGBT community and don't agree with everything the church says.

I have a lot of positive experiences with Christianity and I very sure that in almost every religion there are normal, critical thinking people, be it Catholics, Protestants, Muslims etc. Really, I don't like the bias some Atheists have (not necassary in this forum, I'm discussing religion with people on the internet for almost a decade now) without looking into the religion itself or necassary talking to religious people. It makes me sad and ashamed to be an Atheist. Same goes with religious people who demonize other people's beliefs. It's childish and sometimes I feel like I've been thrown back into kindergarden.

Stop it, you are all wrong.

Regardless what beliefs you have, you always have to be critical about it. There might not be any proof that god(s) exist, however, there are also no evidence that disprove their existence.

13 hours ago, Kazmirl said:

Myself being a Self-Practice Wicca, my studies have made me realize that the only true fact I can believe, is that I could be wrong, but I could also be right in only one way. I have no way to prove that someone else's faith is a cry into the dark, because mine could be just the same. I follow some Hindu, Budhism and Baptist practices alongside my own Wicca. 

Thank you.

 

-Ghost

Edited October 28, 2018 by JustAGhost

[HeatherMarie]

22 hours ago, Kazmirl said:

Myself being a Self-Practice Wicca, my studies have made me realize that the only true fact I can believe, is that I could be wrong, but I could also be right in only one way. I have no way to prove that someone else's faith is a cry into the dark, because mine could be just the same. I follow some Hindu, Budhism and Baptist practices alongside my own Wicca. 

 

This is wonderful, I really wish more people understood that. There is no definitive proof that *any* specific religion is The One (and no, a book written long ago by many different humans is not 'proof'). It seems kind of naive to insist that any specific religion is wrong, because there is no actual proof either way. 

 

I think, from what I've experienced with super-religious people, a lot of people *need* their religion. A lot of people are terrified to believe there might not be a heaven, might not be anything at all after this life, or they think without a God and Heaven this life is meaningless. So their religion *has* to be True because anything else is just too scary. But a lot of people seem to have this feeling/view that if other people don't believe what they believe, somehow that affects them. I've actually encountered people who won't be friends with atheists or agnostics, and the vibe I got from them is that somehow they think that person's view will rub off on them, or 'taint' them in God's eyes or something. Because I acknowledge that there is no absolute proof of any one religion being right, that view just baffles me.

 

(Although, to be honest a lot of the 'can't do these things in this life' doesn't make sense to me, coming from the view of 'maybe there is a God but nothing can be known for sure' I personally just don't understand people devoting their entire lives to God in a way that causes their lives to suffer or deprives them...)

[Aqub]

I'm an Atheist, religion has really never been my thing. The scientific explanations for the way the world is have always been more interesting to me. I come from a family that's protestant christian on both sides, but my parents were less strict about it so religion was never forced on me and a lot of times I feel sad for people whose parents do force it on them. As long as religion isn't forced though, I know that life can be scary and for some people, religion really helps out both by explaining things and by offering hope and reason. I'm fine with that kind of religion, but I really don't like it when people use religion as an excuse to be intolerant of others. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Aqub

[Awdz]

On ‎10‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 7:46 AM, JustAGhost said:

I also don't know any Christian that is a fanatic. They're aware that most of the things that is written in the bible is false.

-Ghost

Most of what you wrote I appreciate pretty well, but I disagree with the statement, "They're aware that most of the things that is written in the bible is false."  Part of the problem stems from folks trying to take poor translations literally.

 

To me as a Christian, much of the bible is history, some of it is contains idioms no longer used anywhere else and therefore very difficult to translate correctly, and for outright miracles, faith comes in. A very important part of discerning what's what is to study the context carefully.

 

For example, the creation story can be interpreted to align with the big bang theory and evolution when you consider ancient storytelling used "day" to represent a section of time that was not necessarily an actual day, but rather represented some significant achievement or event(s). In my mind, science tries to tell what & how; religion is more focused on who and why; they are not mutually exclusive.

 

The key thing for me about the bible is to understand the message within the story and how it pertains to life today. Laws in the Old Testament were primarily to keep people accountable for doing what was right in society and to help them stay healthy. Punishments look much different today than they did back then, but the intent is the same.

 

In the New Testament, Jesus taught us to go beyond simply obeying the laws to something better - a loving relationship with God and one another. If you have a healthy, loving relationship with someone, you generally will not need to worry about the law with regard to them because you will not come close to breaking it; instead, you will enrich their life far beyond what the law requires.

 

I know in my heart and bones that God is real, loves every single one of us, and wants us to have a healthy relationship with our Creator (and with one another). However, your relationship with God is your choice; I am not in your shoes and cannot tell you what you must do about it. I accept your right to deny God exists and will not insist you say otherwise. However, I will tell anyone interested about my beliefs and, if they wish, help them explore Christianity for themselves. According to the bible, Jesus told us we should, and I cannot help but do so out of joy-filled love.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Awdz Bodkins

[HeatherMarie]

I don't know any Christian who would say that the stuff in the Bible is false. That's kind of the opposite of what a Christian is. They believe the Bible contains the Word of God, contains the miracles He has performed and the accounts of Jesus's sacrifice, etc etc. Most Christians I know would get very very defensive if someone said the Bible is false. Now, not everything in the Bible is *current* in terms of what God wants for us and such, that's why there is a difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. But saying it's false? Never known a Christian who would say that. 

[JavaTigress]

5 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

I don't know any Christian who would say that the stuff in the Bible is false. That's kind of the opposite of what a Christian is. They believe the Bible contains the Word of God, contains the miracles He has performed and the accounts of Jesus's sacrifice, etc etc. Most Christians I know would get very very defensive if someone said the Bible is false. Now, not everything in the Bible is *current* in terms of what God wants for us and such, that's why there is a difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. But saying it's false? Never known a Christian who would say that. 

As a Christian myself I would say that this a fair assessment. We DO believe that the Bible not only contains but IS the Word of God.

Therefor, by definition it is NOT false.

 

If that helps?

As @HeatherMarie pointed as for interpretation for a Christian's life today.... well that can vary. At's why we have many, MANY denominations!

[KrazyKarp]

I dunno... as an atheist, I obviously don't believe the Bible is, for lack of a better word, true. I do like the stories in it, they're fun to read! So I suppose I appreciate the Bible on a literature level rather than a religious level.

[JavaTigress]

9 minutes ago, KrazyKarp said:

I dunno... as an atheist, I obviously don't believe the Bible is, for lack of a better word, true. I do like the stories in it, they're fun to read! So I suppose I appreciate the Bible on a literature level rather than a religious level.

Right. Believing it on a religious level? That is a matter of faith. 

[HeatherMarie]

I think faith has different levels, different severities.... (And here I'm going to get into a ramble about stuff I've been thinking about lately...) Like, I hear sooo much about faith, religion is always based on faith. Sometimes I feel like I don't really know what actual faith is. Or at least, I don't know just how much faith I have. I believe there is a God (.... or Goddess). I believe there is some sort of plan for every individual person. I kinda-sorta believe in the whole Jesus thing, him being the Son of God and the Savior and dying on the cross for our sins and all of that... I feel like I *want* to believe that's all true, but maybe I don't have *enough* faith yet? Like, I absolutely love worship songs and certain songs really move me deeply, especially the ones about Jesus dying for us and such, but do I *really* think that actually happened? I'm not sure. 

 

How do you have such faith in something you can't prove? In something that happened so very very long ago that no one alive right now witnessed it? In something that seems so.... So extraordinary, so much *more* then anything any human has ever experienced on this Earth.... I've heard the Bible called the ultimate fantasy book, because the miracles and things that happen seem so out of the realm of possibility. I'm a rather logical person and I often need to see or experience something in order to know it's real.... Such deep faith in God and the Bible is a bit of a foreign concept to me. I honestly don't even know how to do that.

 

(Sorry, this is rambly and maybe I shouldn't even post this, but @JavaTigress's sentence about faith made me start thinking....)

[Awdz]

22 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

I think faith has different levels, different severities.... (And here I'm going to get into a ramble about stuff I've been thinking about lately...) Like, I hear sooo much about faith, religion is always based on faith. Sometimes I feel like I don't really know what actual faith is. Or at least, I don't know just how much faith I have. I believe there is a God (.... or Goddess). I believe there is some sort of plan for every individual person. I kinda-sorta believe in the whole Jesus thing, him being the Son of God and the Savior and dying on the cross for our sins and all of that... I feel like I *want* to believe that's all true, but maybe I don't have *enough* faith yet? Like, I absolutely love worship songs and certain songs really move me deeply, especially the ones about Jesus dying for us and such, but do I *really* think that actually happened? I'm not sure. 

 

How do you have such faith in something you can't prove? In something that happened so very very long ago that no one alive right now witnessed it? In something that seems so.... So extraordinary, so much *more* then anything any human has ever experienced on this Earth.... I've heard the Bible called the ultimate fantasy book, because the miracles and things that happen seem so out of the realm of possibility. I'm a rather logical person and I often need to see or experience something in order to know it's real.... Such deep faith in God and the Bible is a bit of a foreign concept to me. I honestly don't even know how to do that.

 

(Sorry, this is rambly and maybe I shouldn't even post this, but @JavaTigress's sentence about faith made me start thinking....)

 

I think there is a big difference between being unsure/questioning how things could be and denying that any of it is true. I really like expressing it as a faith journey for Christians working through their uncertainty - and we are all on a faith journey as life brings change and we try to make sense of it. I think it is a far healthier position to be contemplating and trying to understand, than to just accept things without thinking about them at all.

 

I've known people who say they are not sure if God exists, yet attend church because "it's a family thing"; because they attend church, they are called Christian. What bothers me much more are the people who insist they are Christians and that hatred and/or violence is an appropriate response to the teachings of God, because that hatred/violence against others is completely against what Jesus taught. At His greatest display of anger, Jesus only turned over tables - He did not assault any individuals.

 

With the basis that God (or Goddess, as gender is not applicable to the one who created it) exists and cares about each one of us, I have to believe God came to earth in human form to show us how to live as intended - clueless otherwise, we can be restored to a right relationship with God because of it. How can I say the One who created =everything= could not have performed miracles? And even if there is a scientific explanation for it, so what? Each miracle was the right thing at just the right time.

 

tl;dr: Hang in there HeatherMarie, you are on the right path with trying to work it out.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Awdz Bodkins

[relaks]

I have... conflicting thoughts, regarding religion. 

 

I personally am what could be called agnostic atheist, as in I don't actually know if there's a higher power or not (and therefore won't confirm it or deny it) but it is my personal believe that there's not. And I think if there was proof that God existed, I could believe in his existence, but not in him.  I'm not comfortable with the possibility of destiny, of our paths being chosen for us, of a higher power able to mess with our life. When I was younger (like 8-9 yo) I attended catechesis. I think I never really believed, even if I asked to be baptized. I thought everyone was like me: that we chose to tell the stories so we'd have something to guide us but that we all knew they were not true. Turns out nop. Some people really believe it happened. I'm okay with that, obviously, but I just... don't believe it happened.

I'm sure many things have an historical basis, but the major things like Moises receiving the word of God, Jesus, etc? That sounds like fantasy to me. I'm just not able to believe these things.

And to be totally honest, I can feel uncomfortable when people speak about it with certainty, because they truly believe it happened. I'm torn between the part of me that says "Everyone believes what they want and you cannot prove anything" and the part that doesn't understand how you can possibly believe these things... Because I don't believe the more "fantasy" bits, I'm unable to see how some people can. I don't know if I explain myself...

 

That's just me. 

There's no proof there's nothing out there neither, and I understand why people find comfort in believing and being part of a community (though you can be part of a community without it having to be religious, tbh). But I have to admit that, as much as I respect personal belief, I have a problem with institutionalized religion. I have no problem with Catholicism, for example, but I don't like the Church (capital C) at all. And I don't mean individual churches with the priests and everything, I mean the Big Church, the Vatican, the whole head of the organization. For me, religion is an personal and deeply intimate thing. You can share it with others if that brings you joy, obviously, and I won't deny convents, monasteries (etc) have done good deeds, but the Institution... yeah, no, I won't say what I think exactly because I fear I might offend some people. But that? I have a big problem with, yes.

Idk. I feel like on an individual level, monotheists religions can be a guide for morality and how to act towards others, to find solace and joy for some, to be a part of something greater than us. I respect that. But on an institutional level, it feels to me it's another tool to control the people and decide for them what's right and what's wrong. That's... not for me, at all. 

 

I cannot speak about other religions/practices though (buddhism, wicca, any and all form of paganism...) because I don't know enough about them. I've always been more inclined towards polytheists religions because they feel more organic to me. I don't know if there's a god for the forests and another for the rivers, and another for the crops, but I do believe in some kind of... balance, on Earth. Mother Nature might not be a conscious being or a goddess, but it is a powerful force we should respect because it's the basis for our survival. I'm really interested in learning about those believes, the ones that bring us closer to the earth and to nature, from where we come from. 

 

(Sorry for my ramble, and sorry if I offended anyone. It's really not my intention. )

[JavaTigress]

6 hours ago, relaks said:

I have... conflicting thoughts, regarding religion. 

 

I personally am what could be called agnostic atheist, as in I don't actually know if there's a higher power or not (and therefore won't confirm it or deny it) but it is my personal believe that there's not. And I think if there was proof that God existed, I could believe in his existence, but not in him.  I'm not comfortable with the possibility of destiny, of our paths being chosen for us, of a higher power able to mess with our life. When I was younger (like 8-9 yo) I attended catechesis. I think I never really believed, even if I asked to be baptized. I thought everyone was like me: that we chose to tell the stories so we'd have something to guide us but that we all knew they were not true. Turns out nop. Some people really believe it happened. I'm okay with that, obviously, but I just... don't believe it happened.

I'm sure many things have an historical basis, but the major things like Moises receiving the word of God, Jesus, etc? That sounds like fantasy to me. I'm just not able to believe these things.

And to be totally honest, I can feel uncomfortable when people speak about it with certainty, because they truly believe it happened. I'm torn between the part of me that says "Everyone believes what they want and you cannot prove anything" and the part that doesn't understand how you can possibly believe these things... Because I don't believe the more "fantasy" bits, I'm unable to see how some people can. I don't know if I explain myself...

 

That's just me. 

There's no proof there's nothing out there neither, and I understand why people find comfort in believing and being part of a community (though you can be part of a community without it having to be religious, tbh). But I have to admit that, as much as I respect personal belief, I have a problem with institutionalized religion. I have no problem with Catholicism, for example, but I don't like the Church (capital C) at all. And I don't mean individual churches with the priests and everything, I mean the Big Church, the Vatican, the whole head of the organization. For me, religion is an personal and deeply intimate thing. You can share it with others if that brings you joy, obviously, and I won't deny convents, monasteries (etc) have done good deeds, but the Institution... yeah, no, I won't say what I think exactly because I fear I might offend some people. But that? I have a big problem with, yes.

Idk. I feel like on an individual level, monotheists religions can be a guide for morality and how to act towards others, to find solace and joy for some, to be a part of something greater than us. I respect that. But on an institutional level, it feels to me it's another tool to control the people and decide for them what's right and what's wrong. That's... not for me, at all. 

 

I cannot speak about other religions/practices though (buddhism, wicca, any and all form of paganism...) because I don't know enough about them. I've always been more inclined towards polytheists religions because they feel more organic to me. I don't know if there's a god for the forests and another for the rivers, and another for the crops, but I do believe in some kind of... balance, on Earth. Mother Nature might not be a conscious being or a goddess, but it is a powerful force we should respect because it's the basis for our survival. I'm really interested in learning about those believes, the ones that bring us closer to the earth and to nature, from where we come from. 

 

(Sorry for my ramble, and sorry if I offended anyone. It's really not my intention. )

IF I may humbly submit... some of the BIG C church things you talk about ( in the past particularly...) NOT even all Christians like/agree with . Again that is one of the OTHER reasons there are denominations.... and protestants as opposed to Catholics.

 

As for what @HeatherMarie... I can feel the struggle you are having with it reading your post. IF It helps, even those who consider them selves to be believers struggle with the subject of faith some times ( IE, for example ... I consider myself a Christian in that I BELIEVE in the things you mention ( Jesus' death for sin and resurection and all of that...) as my way to heaven. THAT said... I don't always feel like I have the faith in God that I SHOULD have... and of course I KNOW that the Bible teaches that without faith it isn't possible to please God...) Faith, I think , is a daily CHOICE as much as anything.  SO what you are feeling isn't UNUSUAL at all I would say. 

[Awdz]

8 hours ago, relaks said:

I have... conflicting thoughts, regarding religion. 

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I am responding to parts of your post as much to sort out my thinking as anything else. I like that you think through the different points from your own situation, as we are all different.

 

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I personally am what could be called agnostic atheist, as in I don't actually know if there's a higher power or not (and therefore won't confirm it or deny it) but it is my personal believe that there's not. And I think if there was proof that God existed, I could believe in his existence, but not in him.

I get that people want proof of God. By scientific method, I do not think we will ever be able to "prove" it in this world; there is no place where the null hypothesis can be shown because God is omnipresent. Best I can come up with along scientific lines is that our spiritual yearning indicates there must be God much as our hunger indicates there must be food. Alternatively, we can see evidence of action by the Holy Spirit, but scientists will debunk that as observations being too biased.

 

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 I'm not comfortable with the possibility of destiny, of our paths being chosen for us, of a higher power able to mess with our life.

I believe God created us with free will and a need for interdependence. Free will means we make our own choices, and in this world we are learning the ramifications of our choices (and the choices of others) on ourselves, on others, and on society as a whole. I think we are destined for greater things much as a student learning the alphabet, then words, sentences, and grammar may be destined to write stories or plays. We have been given gifts and talents; it is our choice how we develop them and to what we apply them. I think God wants us to develop into full persons with healthy souls.

 

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I understand why people find comfort in believing and being part of a community (though you can be part of a community without it having to be religious, tbh).

I also believe that our spiritual development is not nearly as strong when kept to self rather than developed with others' input. Just as our choices have impact far beyond us and we can learn a great deal from others about possible ramifications, I think there is great spiritual insight and growth to be gained by discussions and experiences with others in faith. Furthermore, why should we hide our insights from others who are seeking them?

 

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 For me, religion is an personal and deeply intimate thing. You can share it with others if that brings you joy, obviously, and I won't deny convents, monasteries (etc) have done good deeds, but the Institution... yeah, no

I get that institutions can be a PITA. When leadership goes in a bad direction, the entire body goes down that bad path with them. However, institutions often have many greater resources for digging into our questions, and a much greater support base. They should be encouraging people to figure out how best to have a healthy relationship with God through seeking answers that are consistent with their scriptures; I do not know of any religion whose writings do not advocate peace/love/harmony between people. 

 

I personally also think religions are more legitimate when inclusive, not exclusive. We are all children of God, and loved by God whether or not we seek a closer relationship with our Creator. Those who claim to know for sure the hierarchy after death and treat people demeaningly or with hate/violence according to it in this life are pretty bogus in my eyes. None of us has the omniscience of God, nor can we truly understand how anyone else got where they are without walking in their shoes.

 

On a side note, if we want to respond to a crisis anywhere around the globe, the global network already in place by some major religious institutions makes it very cost effective.

 

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I've always been more inclined towards polytheists religions because they feel more organic to me.

I do not get polytheism. To me, there is one source of everything in the universe. To worship anything else is to be worshipping something less.

 

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I'm really interested in learning about those

I actually am as well, for a variety of reasons. I like to understand others' perspectives for better communication with them.  I also like to mull the different ideas/outlooks around in my mind, to understand why it does or does not work for me.

 

 

@JavaTigress: Well stated!

Edited November 2, 2018 by Awdz Bodkins

[JavaTigress]

19 hours ago, Awdz Bodkins said:

 

I think there is a big difference between being unsure/questioning how things could be and denying that any of it is true. I really like expressing it as a faith journey for Christians working through their uncertainty - and we are all on a faith journey as life brings change and we try to make sense of it. I think it is a far healthier position to be contemplating and trying to understand, than to just accept things without thinking about them at all.

 

I've known people who say they are not sure if God exists, yet attend church because "it's a family thing"; because they attend church, they are called Christian. What bothers me much more are the people who insist they are Christians and that hatred and/or violence is an appropriate response to the teachings of God, because that hatred/violence against others is completely against what Jesus taught. At His greatest display of anger, Jesus only turned over tables - He did not assault any individuals.

 

With the basis that God (or Goddess, as gender is not applicable to the one who created it) exists and cares about each one of us, I have to believe God came to earth in human form to show us how to live as intended - clueless otherwise, we can be restored to a right relationship with God because of it. How can I say the One who created =everything= could not have performed miracles? And even if there is a scientific explanation for it, so what? Each miracle was the right thing at just the right time.

 

tl;dr: Hang in there HeatherMarie, you are on the right path with trying to work it out.

Actually You sum it up pretty well, too. 

 

NOT sure how precisely I missed this post before when addressing HeatherMarie's, but... I really like the image you used of it as a journey.... and I would add that it isn't always an EASY journey.