Sexism

[7Deadly$ins]

I probably didn't mean that in the way that you probably took it. We're obviously on completely different sides of the spectrum here. Like 99% of everyone else it this discussion, I draw a clear distinction between gender and gender role.

[TikindiDragon]

No, I know, I meant that I'm glad you find this enlightening, even if we disagree.

 

One thing I'm curious about: people are saying that being a man or woman is also psychological. What determines if someone is psychologically a man or a woman? People say it's just how they feel, but what do they feel? What traits make a male vs female brain?

Multiple studies involving MRI scans have confirmed differences between the brains of transgendered individuals and those of 'normal' non-trans individuals. Broadly speaking the brains of transgendered individuals respond in a fashion different to a non-trans person of the same birth sex, and in a manner closer to (although not identical to) that of a non-trans person of the birth sex they identify with.

 

In FtM trans people like myself it is particuarly noted that the amount of white matter in the brain is only slightly less than that of a genetic male - and significantly larger than in a non-trans genetic female. This is noted even in cases where the FtM has not started hormone treatment.

 

Full wiki.

 

Has nothing I've said caused you to do *any* research?

[TikindiDragon]

Okay, that's all about transsexualism and the PHYSIOLOGY of the brains of transsexual individuals. Sex/body dysphoria =/= the gender dysphoria that I'm talking about, and physiology =/= psychology.

 

What about the people who call themselves transgender who don't have any sex-related dysphoria? Some of these people say they feel like they have a brain like that of the opposite sex. Again, what are the psychological traits of a "male" vs a "female" brain?

Physiological differences in brains cause processing differences in brains. Processing differences in brains directly affect the actual function of thinking. Thought processes will utilise different parts of the brain.

 

Put in it's simplest form - people do not all think in the same way. And I don't mean different opinions when I say 'think', I mean the way they actually handle information internally differs. Pshychology reflects differing brain functions.

 

I assume you can accept and understand that the way thoughts occur to people actually does differ? I know it's a concept a *lot* of people struggle with, and realising that all other people do not actually think, in a fundamental way, the exact same way you (generic) do can be quite difficult.

 

But, yes, processing differences cause psychological differences. Differing brain structures cause differing processing. That's *why* MRI studies of people with psychological problems are undertaken.

 

Again, I know a lot of people can and do struggle with the concept. But a male brain put under the *precise* same conditions as a female one will not react in the same way. It's not that a male is the result of a female given the 'male privilage' feminists are so fond of mentioning - he's not. Trans men are a prime example of that. They have the female body, and the female upbringing, but the brain reacts as the *male* brain it is.

 

I really do hope you can understand what I mean when I say people think differently. Because if it's not something you can get your head around (not a criticism - I did say it was a concept many find difficult) then I'm not sure I can explain it any more clearly.

[TikindiDragon]

I know what you mean about people thinking differently. Obviously we don't all think exactly the same way for all sorts of reasons.

 

But I don't argue that transsexualism is due to gender (as I define it).  I think a lot of the problem here is that I use gender and gender role interchangeably. I go by the WHO definition of gender. To me, and to many others, they're the same thing. What everyone is calling gender, I call sex. Please understand that.

 

The WHO also classifies Transgender people as mentally ill. If you are accepting the WHO definitions as gospel then, again, we have an issue. The WHO classification of Transgender, and it's definition of gender as a whole, is a symptom of how far behind trans rights are. Please listen to the multiple people here telling you that The WHO is wrong. Please remember that the DSM only stopped listing homosexuality as a mental illness in 1973. Trans rights, and general understanding of transgender issues, are well behind that.

 

Edit: The WHO only stopped listing homosexuality as a mental ill ness in 1990. That should tell you an awful lot about WHO definitions.

 

If you really wish to be accepting and accomodating of transgender individuals I beg you to reconsider your useage and understanding of the word 'gender'.

 

There are people now who are (understandably) uncomfortable with their gender/gender role, and they are transitioning for that reason alone instead of fighting against those gender roles. People without any sex/body dysphoria are taking hormones and altering their body because their personality doesn't fit their socially-expected gender/gender role. .

 

Please, if you can find me an example of someone in the West who is going through a full transition simply because they don't feel like societal gender roles fit them (and without any feeling of their body not fitting) I'd love to see it. I don't think you really understand everything that is involved in transitioning, because let me assure you when you actually understand all the ins and out (not to mention the total disruption to life and relationships) you'd realise it's not something people do unless they have a real *need* to do it for their own mental well being. Most people start to transition because it's getting to the point where they feel it's 'change or suicide'. Transitioning is not easy (or, in the US, cheap) and it's *never* done lightly.

 

They are saying that male brains are programmed to be aggressive and dominant, and that female brains are programmed to be submissive, and if a man is submissive or a woman is aggressive, then they MUST be the opposite sex.

 

That is oppressive and wrong. This perpetuates the gender heirarchy (because men can't *possibly* like pink, and women being aggressive is *unthinkable*), and the perpetution of that heirarchy perpetuates the oppression of women. This is why I believe gender, as I define it, needs to be abolished.

 

This is no longer by any means commonly accepted as fact. The concepts you describe are *already* on the wane, especially among younger generations. And they're fading *without* the idea of gender being abolished, as you seem to think is so nesecary for any change to happen.

 

I, again, urge you to chage your definition of gender as the one you are using is as outdated and wrong as the strict gender roles you are so angry about.

Edited July 2, 2013 by TikindiDragon

[St. Jimmy]

2. Those labels are also products of an oppressive gender heirarchy that states one should only be masculine or feminine. If we didn't define ourselves by gender, we wouldn't have to label ourselves in such ways.

I don't identify myself as genderqueer because I'm oppressed. I do it because that's the way I am.

 

Because gendered societies try to force people into a box instead of just letting them be themselves?

And what if identifying as a certain gender is letting them be themselves?

 

And the concept of gender includes gender roles. Gender defines what people should wear, what jobs they should do, what behaviors they should perform, what peronalities they should have.

Except it doesn't. Already multiple people have told you that they enjoy things traditionally related to the opposite gender, and they still identify as cis.

 

It seems that whenever a feminist says something hurts women as a whole - gender, the sex industry, advertisements, BDSM, etc.

Unrelated to the discussion at hand, but when performed properly BDSM does not hurt women. It is meant to be safe and enjoyable for all involved.

[TikindiDragon]

Would you trust the dictionary? Even various dictionaries include definitions of gender in a social and cultural context.

 

 

 

and

 

 

 

It's not just the WHO, it's in the dictionary. Different movements use the word differently - again, let's not say that everyone should be using a word one specific way. This is like the racism debate all over again.

 

I'll try to remember to use "gender roles" to prevent confusion here, though.

You *are* still believing the WHO then. Right. We have nothing to talk about if you think I'm mentally ill.

[Zovesta]

I dunno, man. =P I'd feel empty if gender was abolished. I identify as a woman. It's what I am. This doesn't mean I am stereotypically feminine, and I am not describing that as just nail polish and shopping. I mean stereotypically feminine in a harmful, more psychological sense: I am, and have been since I was 6, the most emotionally stable person in my family who "takes charge" when everyone else gets hysterical. When I hit my moments of suicidal blues, I don't seek comfort, I sit around and drown my sorrows in TV. Even "the tomboy" who would rather work on a car than do her hair is often shown as more emotional and, even if "motherly", more clingy and hysterical.

 

If I had a set of berries, I'd still feel like a woman. I identify as a woman because I am a woman. It is a part of who I am, and just as valid as any other part of me. If you take that away, you aren't helping, you're harming.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Zovesta

[Shienvien]

Sexuality isn't an artifical construct, gender is.

That's where we disagree. I am saying that gender, much like sexuality, is likewise determined by mental structuring. And that just like all gay people do not make good stylists, some women are horrible nurturers, and so forth.

(It is people associating things with gender which do not relate to gender that is the problem. Gender =/= gender role.)

 

 

For the matter, I am almost impossible to anger (although I tend to have the habit of piling a bunch of statements atop of another without bothering with transitions when I am tired, which might leave the impression of being agitated), I essentially lack the ability to feel fear, and I have only cried when someone is dead ever since I was five or so. I seem to harbor greater mental strength in regards to tragedy than most people I know. I also dislike other people trying to comfort me and have discovered that the "talking about your feelings makes you feel better" is as wrong as it can get for me. I'll rather fight than stay back to nurture someone for a long period of time. I know more about guns, cars and computers than I do about clothes or makeup (don't wear makeup, in fact). I am an almost purely direction-based navigator and excel at spatial tasks. And so forth. And I am a woman.

 

[Shienvien]

You realize that one can agree with one thing an organization says without agreeing with everything, right?

'Cept you cannot say that gender does not exist and claim that people whose gender and sex do not match are an actual thing instead of delusion without contradicting yourself.

[Shienvien]

If gender were a societal construct, trans people would be able to simply stop being trans people - which is not so. They cannot stop being trans people any more than a gay person can stop being gay.

[TikindiDragon]

Transsexualism is due to BODY dysphoria, which has nothing to do with gender, it has to do with sex.

How many times do you need an actual trans person to tell you you are wrong?

[Syaoransbear]

How many times do you need an actual trans person to tell you you are wrong?

I'm confused, I thought that was true? I thought the line of thought of a trans person was "Hey there's supposed to be a vagina here not a penis" and not "I have a huge need to wear pink frilly dresses." Isn't one a body dysphoria when it comes to sex, and the other is a dysphoria when it comes to gender?

Edited July 3, 2013 by Syaoransbear

[Obscure_Trash]

But why wouldn't that also have to do with gender?

[Obscure_Trash]

I'm going to go ahead and at least temporarily lock this thread since it does affect multiple members personally and there are posts at least bordering on attacking who they are. I will discuss with the other mods how we want to handle the future of this thread.

[hazeh]

The thread is being reopened, but please keep in mind to refrain from accusing other members of certain behaviors via posts. If you have an issue with how someone words their post, please contact a moderator instead so that there isn't a fight. I would like to see the discussion continue in a civil, non-snippy tone so that everyone may have a chance to discuss their opinions in a respectful manner. Thanks guys c:

 

 

That being said, I personally agree with what Angel has been saying. It makes the most sense to me, that genders and sex are separate entities. I am uncertain how else to define gender other than a societal role, because what everyone has been describing as gender seems to come solely from what society expects of these genders. Everything else seems more connected to physical sex rather than gender.

/shrinks away

Edited July 7, 2013 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[Obscure_Trash]

Personally, for those that are cisgender, I think you should listen when non-binary gendered folk tell you that gender isn't a societal construct. Me sometimes considering myself agender has nothing to do with society. It has to do with the fact that sometimes I'm just disassociated with any gender. Gender is your brain 'sex' not determined by behavior or society. I mean, yeah, sure, society puts labels on everything, but I think you know when your mind agrees with the parts of your body, disagrees, sometimes agrees, or whatever else.

 

The two things can coexist, but one does not necessitate the other.

Abolishing gender would not eliminate transsexuals, because gender =/= sex and transsexualism does not necessitate transgenderism.

 

But this goes against what transgenderism/transsexualism is. The problem is that your gender doesn't match your sex.

 

For those who have experience in this, correct me if I'm wrong, but... From my understanding, transgender was someone who didn't go through surgery to change their body (although could start hormones?) and a transsexual is someone who went through surgery to change their body. For some, simply being able to identify as the correct gender is enough. For others, they can't afford surgery or for whatever reason don't want to face surgery. I have a transgender friend who is really debating surgery because, although it would give them the body they want in looks, the parts wouldn't be functional like they would on an able-bodied cisgender person. They really want to have the right body, but they're also hoping one day for a better surgery option.

 

Abolishing gender in society would eliminate the need for people to identify as "transgender," it would eliminate dysphoria in people who feel forced to follow roles they don't like, because you could just be yourself without worrying about getting called names for acting girly or being butch or whatever.

 

Um...no it wouldn't? The dysphoria isn't from following 'roles' they don't like, it's from being in the wrong body.

 

Really, it has nothing to do with societal roles. Yeah, for example, it took me quite a few years to accept that I could be both masculine and feminine while still being a strong woman. Trust me when I say that struggle is nothing like being born with the wrong parts. It's not the same in the slightest. You can be a FtM transgender that loves societally feminine things or a MtF transgender who loves societally masculine things. It's not about what you do. It's about your body and your identity. I don't know how to make that more clear to people who just can't live with that. D:

 

I just don't get how gender and sex don't go hand in hand. D:

[hazeh]

If it isn't a societal role, then what is gender? What makes one person explicitly male or female in the brain? I've always been told by people in the LGBTQ community that gender and sex are separate entities, so I'm confused as to what gender is supposed to mean then if it is separate from sex but not a conditioned stereotype of what each sex should behave like.

 

I'm at a point in this discussion where I'm not even sure what male or female even means. 9~6

[Zovesta]

Frankly, I'm at a point where I'm just thinking who even cares if it's societal or not? It obviously plays a large part in people's identities, don't mess that up for them.

[ebony ink]

So I'm not sure who I agree with (the thread after a while dies get convoluted), but as I see it the best way to understand things and people is to view the following things completely separate from each other:

 

biological sex (or the bits you were born with) - physical/visual

current sex (bit you have) - physical/visual

gender - you can't visually guess this

visual presentation - do they look/present as female, male, androgynous etc.

pronouns - again, if you want to know ask

 

None of the above things are connected to gender roles, I view gender roles as persistent stereotypes nothing more.

 

In general, I tend to link people to this guide .

 

As a feminist (I'm sticking to the broad label for now), I wish to abolish patriarchy, I wish get rid of gender stereotypes, I do not wish to get rid of gender.

 

To make a common metaphor using race: We wish to abolish racism, and racist stereotypes, but abolishing races would be incredibly damaging. Because you're ripping out someones identity and cultural heritage.

 

It's not the same with gender, but it's on the same scale.

 

The problem is that a LOT of people don't get this. They find opposite sex's assigned gender (in other words, their societally-defined gender role) more suitable for them, and then say they identify as that sex and call themselves "transgender." I've seen it in the sex/gender identity thread right here on this forum. They don't experience any dysphoria about their body parts, but because they despise the gender role society thinks they should follow or like the other one better, they call themselves trans even though they really aren't. People wouldn't have to deal with this if society didn't push these roles on them based on their body parts.

 

AngelKitty, I hate to say but I think it's very damaging to police labels especially in the trans (and lgbtqia) community. People are allowed to identify as trans or genderqueer without fitting into neat boxes defined by the media of what a trans person should be like. I also highly doubt that a 'trans' identity is viewed more favourably on the whole in any country than 'male' or 'female'; in the same way people don't choose to be homosexual, they just are.

 

Zovesta, completely agree with you. Gender is a complex thing but our discussion is not more important that anyone's feeling and especially anyone's identity.

 

----

And sexism wise: I hate the fact that one of the people with whom I'm doing an internship with, addresses me and another intern in his emails as 'Hi girls'.

 

Because no. But I' putting it down to being European, rather than sexist.

[KageSora]

In general, I tend to link people to this guide .

I love Carlin's stuff. Carlin is awesome. They've made some great stuff, especially for asexuals--but just in general for the LGBTIQA/etc. community. They've got a great blog that's just awesome and they're a nice person on top of it.

 

Their blog is asexual-not-a-sexual.tumblr.com (content warning, it may contain things that are upsetting to some people, or things that just aren't suitable for young users)

Edited July 8, 2013 by KageSora

[ebony ink]

Just a small correction on the link, it's:

http://asexual-not-a-sexual.tumblr.com/

(same warnings apply tho ).

 

But yes, Carlin is awesome, and their blogs amongst many things does contain a lot of information about identities, gender and lgbtqia.

[KageSora]

Just a small correction on the link, it's:

http://asexual-not-a-sexual.tumblr.com/

(same warnings apply tho ).

 

But yes, Carlin is awesome, and their blogs amongst many things does contain a lot of information about identities, gender and lgbtqia.

Oops, typo attack~

 

I really do love all the information that's in one place thanks to Carlin's blogs, it's really handy.

[TikindiDragon]

If it isn't a societal role, then what is gender? What makes one person explicitly male or female in the brain? I've always been told by people in the LGBTQ community that gender and sex are separate entities, so I'm confused as to what gender is supposed to mean then if it is separate from sex but not a conditioned stereotype of what each sex should behave like. 

 

If this ^ were true, trans folk wouldn't exist. But, hey, we're here.

 

Put bluntly there's something going on that is not

a) Purely down to chromasomes & gentials

or

Down to how we've been socialised from birth.

 

The case of David Reimer disproves any idea that gender identity can be down to soley 'nurture'. And, yes, I *will* keep bringing that up, because I'm not sure that understanding of that particular case has sunk in. This is a person who was effectively forced to transition as a very young child due to a botched operation destroying his male genitals. They tried very, very hard to raise this child as a girl. It didn't work. At all. The way a person is raised has *nothing* to do with wether they percieve themselves as innately male or female.

 

Now societal gender roles can cause confusion in people as they get older, when they find their interests to not lie in line with the steretyping. And removing that harmful steretyping will go a long way to helping people be comfortable with enjoying the things they enjoy, while still being the person they are.

 

It is not possible to remove a person's innate sense of male or female. That innate sense is their *gender*, and it is *not* defined by their genitals. Or, and please look at David Reimer again, by how they were raised.

 

I'm at a point in this discussion where I'm not even sure what male or female even means. 9~6

 

Presumeably this is because there are people a) telling you gender shouldn't exist, and you are comfortable with your own physical form.

 

People trying to eradicate 'male' and 'female' do more harm to the trans community than good, as the end result is people telling us we shouldn't have to change our bodies to be happy with ourselves <_<

 

I'm starting to feel like all the backlash is because of 1. semantics, and 2. me aligning myself with radical feminism (which, if anyone has any questions about radical feminism, I'm happy to answer or link you to good sources. We're not the screaming evil harpies people like to make us out to be. Usually).

 

Well

1. You've been told repeatedly that the definition you are using is hurtful and insulting. That's like insisting on calling people of colour 'negros', and then telling them they're getting upset over semantics. I would think it would be pretty obvious that if you've been told your language is hurtful that changing your language is the way to go about things, rather than compunding the problem by telling people they are wrong.

 

and

 

2. Did you even read through some of the links you've posted? The language in some of them is so trans-phobic it's unreal. Not to mention your support of the WBW concept. What, exactly, is the problem with transwomen? Do you feel they threaten you? Do you view them as 'ex-men', and thus something 'other', rather than as the women they are? Are you defining 'woman' as 'vagina' (which is something I would hope any feminist of any stripe would shy away from)? Or do you think that 'seperate but equal' can work any better with trans people than it did with race?

 

Try reading this blog post. I hope it causes you to stop, and think, and reconsider.

Edited July 8, 2013 by TikindiDragon

[7Deadly$ins]

Yes, having only recently learned about the WBW thing, my first thought was that it was very "separate but equal"...

[hydrargyrum]

Reading back I think (correct me if I'm wrong) people are using it to refer to the relationship between how their brain thinks their body should be and how their body actually is, but that's not what I'm talking about. Like, at all. And I've never heard it used that way before outside of discussions about trans people and their identities.

Well, I'm the opposite. I've always heard gender used to refer to someone's mental sex (what their brain thinks their body should look like), and until your posts, I had literally never heard of anyone using gender and gender roles interchangeably.

 

The problem is that a LOT of people don't get this. They find opposite sex's assigned gender (in other words, their societally-defined gender role) more suitable for them, and then say they identify as that sex and call themselves "transgender." I've seen it in the sex/gender identity thread right here on this forum. They don't experience any dysphoria about their body parts, but because they despise the gender role society thinks they should follow or like the other one better, they call themselves trans even though they really aren't. People wouldn't have to deal with this if society didn't push these roles on them based on their body parts.

As a cis, I can't give as strong a comment as the trans members can, since I don't really understand what they feel. But I admit that I don't understand, and let them speak for themselves, rather than trying to tell them how I think they should feel. Although I may not know many trans people myself, I have never even heard of someone thinking they were trans when they just didn't like their gender role. I thought that being trans literally meant that they had body dysphoria. I'm sure there are some people who think/claim they're trans just because they don't like their gender role, but they're just ignorant. I'm not going to judge an entire community by the ignorance of a few.