Sexism

[Shienvien]

Do you think we should be teaching elementary school kids that this is what mommies do and this is what daddies do?

Absolutely and vehemently against it. I find it severely detrimental to children's self-image and ability to feel comfortable with their likes and preferences. If there is one thing I will forever be deeply grateful to my parents for, it is not directing I or my brother towards the "traditional" gender roles. I would have hated being forced to act unlike myself just because of outdated and inherently discriminatory societal standards.

[Syaoransbear]

I'm completely against teaching gender roles. I think all it does is restrict people from doing what makes them happy. If a woman wants to be a stay at home mom that's perfectly fine, but she should do that because it's something she enjoys doing, not because she was taught that this is a woman's place in the world. Telling men and women what they can and can't do purely based on ancient and unfair gender roles is such a step in the wrong direction. We should moving away from little girls only being taught ballet and boys only being taught sports, and the ones who stray from those roles being bullied for not conforming to society's standards that are only based on something as stupid as their genitals.

[medspa]

actually after all these

Men shouldn't be in ballet.

Men shouldn't paint their nails.

Men shouldn't wear makeup.

Men shouldn't wear skirts or dresses.

i just have nothing to say.......

[hydrargyrum]

actually after all these

Men shouldn't be in ballet.

Men shouldn't paint their nails.

Men shouldn't wear makeup.

Men shouldn't wear skirts or dresses.

i just have nothing to say.......

... why shouldn't they? Will the world implode if they do? What if those things make them happy? Just because YOU think something is "wrong" or "weird" doesn't mean it is. People should do what makes them happy, and to think that people have to fit into defined gender roles is stupid and outdated.

 

I can barely believe that some people actually still think teaching gender roles is in any way, shape, or form a good idea. It's one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard. People are people, and shouldn't be expected to conform to such outdated stereotypes. Ugh. It's bad enough with all the societal pressure there already is, but to say "this is how things are supposed to be" is ridiculous.

[Kith]

actually after all these

Men shouldn't be in ballet.

Men shouldn't paint their nails.

Men shouldn't wear makeup.

Men shouldn't wear skirts or dresses.

i just have nothing to say.......

So... The male/female pair dances are supposed to be performed by two women, then? You either need men in the ballet to perform certain roles, or all roles (including that of the "handsome prince" who marries the "princess") will be performed by women... Which doesn't adhere to the gender roles of the story being told. Can't have that one both ways.

 

I see nail-painting to be more of a gender neutral attention-getting behavior, so I suppose I won't go further into that.

 

Actors and newscasters wear makeup no matter their sex and gender so that they can look their best on camera. This is wrong? >..>

 

Kilts, togas, robes, and other dress- or skirt-like pieces of clothing have been worn by men for centuries, if not millennia. Does this mean that historical depictions of men in art need to be changed so they're all wearing trousers to promote "traditional male attire"?

 

Edit: @ NixAyum - One can hope, but I figured I'd cover my bases just in case. >..>

Edited June 20, 2013 by Kith

[NixAyum]

I think the poster was being sarcastic, pointing out how ridiculous those assumptions are. Just my interpretation /shrug

[KageSora]

Do you think we should be teaching elementary school kids that this is what mommies do and this is what daddies do? I think there are all kinds of moms and all kinds of dads (also stepmoms/dads, aunts, grandparents, etc. who are raising children). Why do we need to teach kids how to be one particular kind of mom or dad? It's absolutely ridiculous that this sort of speculation is happening in the US House.

It's incredibly wrong.

 

We need to remove the idea of gender roles.

 

If we can get rid of this idea that only certain people should do certain things dictated by their genitals, we can work on getting rid of other ideas.

 

Like that women are inferior, and that if you're womanly that's bad and if you're a woman but you're too manly it's bad.

 

Gender roles are things that need to become a thing of the past.

[MysticTiger]

Growing up in a family with an extremely sexist father and a mother who's a walking stereotype, it's hard for me not to get angry about things like sexism. For example, I like to eat Burgers. My mother tells me it's not "ladylike" to eat more than one burger. Nevermind I haven't eaten the entire day and burgers are my favorite. My father always backs her up because he enjoys saying things like "women should make a husband his dinner before he gets home" and "men don't do the dishes".

 

Things I like doing, like playing video games or building stuff, is considered something a "woman should not do", despite my ability or enjoyment of these activities. It's crap. If I am good at something and enjoy doing that thing, my gender should not matter in the least.

 

And, of course, should I ever be attacked by a man, I will be asked questions like "what was I wearing" or "was I drunk" or "did I invoke the attack". And if the guy who attacked me happens to be a white, sports kids, i'm screwed. I'll probably end up getting death threats if I tried to go ahead with charges.

 

The whole sexism thing needs to stop. Of course, that's like saying the entire racism thing needs to stop. It won't. There will always be that group of ignorant bigots. However, it may start to fade away. Which is what I hope happens.

 

In the meantime, I think all women should just start their own country and men aren't invited. See how long they survive or HOW they survive. It would definitely be an interesting social experiment.

[Shienvien]

In the meantime, I think all women should just start their own country and men aren't invited. See how long they survive or HOW they survive. It would definitely be an interesting social experiment.

Resorting to misandry isn't the right way to go, either. (I won't be a happy person if I was cut off from all the men dear to me. Almost all of my closer friends happen to be men, and they all are decent people.) Equal rights to all individuals is the way to go.

[TikindiDragon]

Resorting to misandry isn't the right way to go, either. (I won't be a happy person if I was cut off from all the men dear to me. Almost all of my closer friends happen to be men, and they all are decent people.) Equal rights to all individuals is the way to go.

Sadly Misandry does seem to be the most common response. I'm tired of hearing women slag men off simply because they're male the entire time, when some of them would be the first the shriek 'Sexism!' if a man were to say something similar.

[Jahira-Tor]

Removing all gender rolls will never happen, and I, in a way, agree. Not so much career based, I think a woman or a man should be able to feel completely comfortable in whatever roll they choose to take in life. That being said...

 

A male is the stronger gender, and the woman is the child barer. As such, in the animal kingdom (and don't forget that we are animals) there are most certainly rolls to play. Never in society will it be possible to remove ourselves from the animals we are. It's nature. Down to our very genes we are programmed to play roles. A male is the hunter collector and the female the nurturer.

 

These things are part of us, not as how we are raised, not as something taught. Nothing but many more millions of years of evolution away from the animals we once were can put a dent in this, and it would take a major evolutionary leap to cut it completely.

[KageSora]

Removing all gender rolls will never happen, and I, in a way, agree. Not so much career based, I think a woman or a man should be able to feel completely comfortable in whatever roll they choose to take in life. That being said...

 

A male is the stronger gender, and the woman is the child barer. As such, in the animal kingdom (and don't forget that we are animals) there are most certainly rolls to play. Never in society will it be possible to remove ourselves from the animals we are. It's nature. Down to our very genes we are programmed to play roles. A male is the hunter collector and the female the nurturer.

 

These things are part of us, not as how we are raised, not as something taught. Nothing but many more millions of years of evolution away from the animals we once were can put a dent in this, and it would take a major evolutionary leap to cut it completely.

I may have a vagina, but I'm absolutely no nurturer.

 

You force me to look after a kid for an extended period of time, I want to punt that little demon-spawn into a volcano.

 

There are plenty of men waaaaaaay more naturally nurturing than I am, having a vagina or a penis doesn't dictate that.

 

Seriously, it's not in my nature to be nurturing to small children. And no, I wouldn't be if I gave birth to it--there are women who just do not have the capacity to bond with a child in the assumed automatic way.

Edited June 22, 2013 by KageSora

[Shienvien]

A male is the stronger gender, and the woman is the child barer. As such, in the animal kingdom (and don't forget that we are animals) there are most certainly rolls to play. Never in society will it be possible to remove ourselves from the animals we are. It's nature. Down to our very genes we are programmed to play roles. A male is the hunter collector and the female the nurturer.

Wrong. Animals of any kind - humans included - aren't perfect clones of the "normal" representative of their species. It happens all the time in nature that some females of species where females nurture simply walk off after giving birth and never come back, some male representatives of species in which males normally do not care for young can occasionally observed to literally steal the females' offspring from them because they have decided they want to raise their own young even when they might not be able to lactate, etc. Our genetic code is mutating all the time, in our case natural evolution does often not remove the more far-fetched individuals from the gene pool, and on top of that, men and women share nearly all of their genetic code to begin with. For the most part, they are built according to the exact same construction manual.

 

I myself am a cisgendered purely heterosexual woman and end up placing "masculine" on almost all tests (as in, peaking in the areas a man is supposed to, and getting varying results in areas a woman is supposed to excel at), my interests are typically considered masculine, et cetera, et cetera. I have had enough of your argument being constantly used against me. It is severely detrimental to both men and women and nothing else if gender rolls are imposed on them.

I could continue listing endlessly (or, well, for far longer than I have time and energy for) the people I know to whom the alleged correct gender roll simply does not fit.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Shienvien

[Moeru]

Wrong. Animals of any kind - humans included - aren't perfect clones of the "normal" representative of their species. It happens all the time in nature that some females of species where females nurture simply walk off after giving birth and never come back, some male representatives of species in which males normally do not care for young can occasionally observed to literally steal the females' offspring from them because they have decided they want to raise their own young even when they might not be able to lactate, etc. Our genetic code is mutating all the time, and on top of that, men and women share nearly all of their genetic code. For the most part, they are built according to the exact same construction manual.

 

I myself am a cisgendered purely heterosexual woman and end up placing "masculine" on almost all tests (as in, peaking in the areas a man is supposed to, and getting varying results in areas a woman is supposed to excel at), my interests are typically considered masculine, et cetera, et cetera. I have had enough of your argument being constantly used against me. It is severely detrimental to both men and women and nothing else if gender rolls are imposed on them.

I could continue listing endlessly (or, well, for far longer than I have time and energy for) the people I know to whom the alleged correct gender roll simply does not fit.

Hear hear.

One oft-forgotten problem with the "men/women/animals/biology" argument is the presence of transgender people. They have existed in all cultures in all times. Falling back on pseudoscience to say "men are X and women are Y because biology" is lazy, exceptionally untrue, unnecessary (We are NOT "just animals" because we have technology and society... do we kill our elderly and ill children because they cannot contribute to society and just waste resources?), and at BEST, saying "women bear babies so they will never be able to hold a high paying job" is POORLY backed by fact and is damaging to society for you to even say that.

 

Even to you. Especially to you. Being sure that men and women are different fundamentally, believing that at the core of ancient DNA men and women cannot ever be equal, is crippling you on every level of your mind and your life....

[Switch]

"women are the child bearers and the nurturers"

howww about no? :c

 

I'm a FtM transguy, biologically female, and I don't fit that or the "men are the strong hunters", regardless of what you want to call me.

If you consider me female regardless of my preferences, well, that's another story since we're in the sexism thread. But I am terrified of pregnancy. I can barely take care of myself tbh, and I have an aversion to little kids in general. The screaming and crying doesn't make me want to nurture them, it makes me want to get waaay away from them. I am the exact opposite of a child bearer and a nurturer. I'd be the worst parent ever, honestly.

 

And, as a boy, I most definitely do not fit the "strong male hunter" criteria. Regardless of my identification, I'm about as far away from what's considered masculine as you can get! I'm a self-admitted wuss with a nonexistent pain tolerance and long hair and I paint my nails and have am a very effeminate person in general etc. (I'm kind of a living "feminine gay guy" stereotype whooops) And this is even though I'm transitioning from female to male. (obviously, I'm not saying these are what guys are like or supposed to be like. I'm just referring to the expectations and such.)

 

So yeah, sexism stinks and so do expected gender roles. c: everyone should be able to do whatever they want regardless of their sex. Of course if a lady wants to have children and do things that are thought of as feminine that's just fine! Or the complete opposite. Or both. Same applies to guys both ways. Like I said, everyone should be able to just act however they want without things being expected of them because of their sex. x3

i mean, unless that thing you're doing is hurting someone else. But I mean that applies to everything. So i'll assume the things aren't hurting anyone else. ;u;

Edited June 22, 2013 by Switch

[Ripan]

I'm surprised that "men are strong hunters" trope is still around :/ 'specially considering there have been found cases like this:

 

 

This skeleton right here is the remains of an individual who lived around 9000 years ago in what is today's Sweden. They lived in a hunter-gatherer society during the stone age, and judging by the grave goods this individual was a hunter/fisher. For a long time archaeologists assumed this was a man, going purely by the grave goods, and was called The Fisherman from Barum (today Bäckaskog). However, upon osteological examination it showed that this individual had in fact given birth to many children. Thus she was renamed The Bäckaskog Woman.

There are also other archaeological finds in the country (especially on the island of Gotland) that confirms that hunting and fishing was definitely not an male-only practice.

[KageSora]

I thought I'd link this here.

 

Can't say for sure how accurate it is, as this is way outside my realm of knowledge, but both the post and the commentary is interesting.

 

Warning for some language, also non-graphic mentions of rape.

 

 

~linky~

[Jahira-Tor]

and on top of that, men and women share nearly all of their genetic code to begin with. For the most part, they are built according to the exact same construction manual.

[/i]

 

Actually that's not really true, we have similar gene pools, but never forget down to our most basic chromosomes we are completely different. X and Y. At our most basic, we are polar opposites in our makeup.

[Jahira-Tor]

Hear hear.

One oft-forgotten problem with the "men/women/animals/biology" argument is the presence of transgender people. They have existed in all cultures in all times. Falling back on pseudoscience to say "men are X and women are Y because biology" is lazy, exceptionally untrue, unnecessary (We are NOT "just animals" because we have technology and society...

The animal/biology argument is always valid. I train police dogs for a living and am a canine behaviour expert, in my work I come across transgender dogs. I've come across animals with different sets of gentiles.

 

Also, I know this will be taken the wrong way, but pointing out 'the rule' isn't a valid argument. Just because there are exceptions to the rule, i.e.; homosexuality, transgender, asexual etc doesn't make it the norm. I'm not in any way saying that it's wrong to be any of those things, and I'm certainly not saying that anyone should be victimised in any way, shape or form for those things. Everyone should most certainly be treated equally. Gay marriage should never be the issue it is today, but again, that's not about sexism which is what's being debated right?

[Shienvien]

Actually that's not really true, we have similar gene pools, but never forget down to our most basic chromosomes we are completely different. X and Y. At our most basic, we are polar opposites in our makeup.

Every man still has one X chromosome, in case you haven't noticed. it is XX or XY, not X or Y.

 

That X chromosome in men is fully functional. An individual without an X chromosome is simply not viable (but one with only one X and nothing else will live, even if she would have some health problems, be smaller/weaker and infertile). Meaning that the only difference is the Y chromosome - which is a tiny little thing which determines very little process-wise. Basically, knock out or mutate the genes in the Y chromosome which code the production of two hormones and you get a fully functional XY woman.

It has happened and occasionally still happens - it is a syndrome with recorded cases, and on occasion those people go living on for decades without ever realizing they are XY women instead of normal XX women (one case I know of was infertile, but otherwise a perfectly normal cisgendered heterosexual woman). Unlike XY men, XY women have the anty-müllerian hormone production practically nulled and testosterone very low (women in general have slight bit of testosterone in their bodies - around a tenth of what men have, if I recall correctly - you have to produce testosterone if you want to produce estrogen, since testosterone is a step in between, and some of it gets into circulation).

 

Point being: genetically, men and women are anything but the polar opposites of one another. Limit the production of to hormones in an XY person, and lo and behold, you've gotten yourself a woman who neither herself nor whose family will realize that something is off (before she tries to find out why she can't have babies, anyway).

[Zaxian]

Actually that's not really true, we have similar gene pools, but never forget down to our most basic chromosomes we are completely different. X and Y. At our most basic, we are polar opposites in our makeup.

You're claiming we're 'polar opposites' on the basis of differences in one chromosome, out of the 46* that humans have?

 

(*Obviously not considering here those people with chromosomal abnormalities that might in fact have more or fewer)

 

I would also like to echo Shienvien's comments and point out that you can in fact get both XY females and XX males - in both cases, the usual result is infertility but otherwise has very little effect on whether they behave in a feminine or masculine manner.

[hazeh]

Please remember that if you have something additional to say, edit your previous post instead of posting twice in a row. ^^

 

 

Also, different topic because this has been bothering me for a while:

 

I've had a question about gender roles and gender identity for a while. I've always been pro-equal rights, pro-wear/look however you want etc, pro transgender rights etc. However I've come across something that has me stumped, and I honestly can't recall if I've asked this question of you guys before. |D

 

Anyway, so there is the [correct] idea that stereotypical gender exclusive tidbits such as "boys wear blue, girls wear pink, boys play with cars, girls play with ponies" type of mentality should be eradicated. I totes agree with that. So we come to this idea that there is virtually nothing distinguishing a man or woman in society besides their biology.

However, then on the flip side, we have transgender rights (which again, totally on board) which says that hey, you can be a woman and not have a vagina (and male counterpart). As mentioned above, there are also chromosomal differences which don't always stay true to the "rule", as well as intersexed folk.

So my question is: With both of these ideas in mind, what actually constitutes a male or female in society, and if there truly is no difference, why is gender dysphoria an issue?

 

I don't mean to sound crass, but it's been an honest question that I've struggled to wrap my head around, and I was hoping the enlightened folk of DC could shed some light on it for me.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[St. Jimmy]

While I don't consider myself transgender, usually my gender isn't the same as what my body says. I can't really describe the difference other than I feel like I should be something else. Sometimes I feel like I have the wrong parts (at least in the "upper region"). I guess it's really an impossible question to answer, since it's all down to how someone feels. I've stopped trying to understand what genders feel like.

[Kith]

Well, if the line between masculine and feminine roles/stereotypes was eliminated, that would pretty much eradicate most gender dysphoria, as it generally seems to be the feeling that the gender role/stereotype for the biological sex they have is incorrect (i.e. a male feeling like a woman, a female feeling like a man).

 

The only type that would be left is the kind where the person feels they were in the wrong sex body; that they look down and don't see the parts they feel they should have. Though that's technically transsexual and not transgender, I'm not sure how much of that stems from the assigned gender roles, so even that may be somewhat alleviated due to the abolition of those roles. Which would just leave the transsexuals that would want/need hormonal and/or surgical assistance.

[TikindiDragon]

Uh, guys, no. Really no. Eradicating all societal gender stereotypes would not remove gender dysphoria. It really, really wouldn't. Because gender isn't about society and it's expectations. Gender is internal. Gender is who you are, not who society expects you to be.

 

Let's face it - a 4 year old hasn't really had much of a chance for societal stereotyping to become properly ingraned. And yet I'm told that even at that age I was asking to be called by a boys name and asking when my boy parts were going to start growing. It's also not society that gave me the creeping horrors over periods, or my breasts. It's not societal conditioning that causes me to look in the mirror and mentaly scream that this is all wrong. And it's got nothing on the horrible sense of shame and worthlessness on those occasions when I have to dress up and look 'girly' and everyone tells me how good I look. Because it's all totally, utterly wrong at a deep level.

 

I know it's difficult for cis-folk to wrap their heads around, because there really isn't anything you can relate it to. And there aren't actually words to describe that feeling of wrongness. My body would still be *wrong* even if I'd grown up in total isolation from society.

 

The basic difference between transsexual and transgender is how able one is to live in the wrong body. A transgendered person may be able to live without going through the (often mentally very rough) process of fully transitioning, whereas a transsexual would be someone that is already on (or has completed) that path.