Sexism

[earthgirl]

Women are predators as well, abuse is not exclusive to males (hence its not a sexism issue at all !!!!!), Whichever gender the predator is, abusee is partially at fault as well coz one can not exist without the other, predator can not and I say this again CAN NOT manipulate or psychologically abuse a person that has a strong persona, only the weak one can be taken advantage of and this phenomena has been going on throughout our entire history (survival of the fittest, slavery, bullying, cults, pick whatever)...

 

In order for the phenomena to exist there must be an abuser and an abusee, without the abusee, abuser has no power, magically making all the people (of both genders) with abusive tendancies go poof into thin air will still not change the fact that the weak individuals within our society still have that low self esteem, and still feel unworthy, and you can ignore that part all you want but that is a part of the problem as well....

 

Nobody is excusing the lowlife behavior of predators !!!! However, this sentence is as real as it gets "fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me"...

Whoever you are, a girl or a guy, making mistakes is perfectly cool but if you learn nothing from those mistakes and instead repeat the same pattern then your worst enemy is not the potential abuser but you yourself

So are you assuming that the weakling has a fault for being weak and because of the weak there are always going to be abusers?

 

Also, are you assuming that the abusers are the 'strong' ones?

 

I beg to differ!

[The Evil Doer]

So are you assuming that the weakling has a fault for being weak and because of the weak there are always going to be abusers?

 

Also, are you assuming that the abusers are the 'strong' ones?

 

I beg to differ!

 

Where there is weakness, someone will abuse it - law of nature that works for both us humans and animals...

 

Weakling must acknowledge his flaws and get stronger coz by doing so he takes the power away from any potential abuser, powerless abuser is an irrelevant abuser...

 

Abuser, is IMO a person with issues coz whoever need to harm/abuse others to feel good about themselves has issues, whether its sadism, egoism, low self esteem themselves is not really the point, the bottom line is whatever the abuser's problem is he/she is indeed mentally stronger or simply smarter than the abusee coz to manipulate others into doing things or to convince others of things one must be mentally stronger than his/her "target"...

Edited February 16, 2013 by The Evil Doer

[Vhale]

So what is your point exactly? That sexism as a term can't exist because men can be victims? That people can't talk about it as a problem? Maybe shouldn't be trying to pass legislation? Should we close battered women's shelters and cut their funding?

 

That's like saying we can't talk about child abuse or pedophilia, we just have to call it all one word so no one gets left out or offended.

 

Or do we have to talk about the current problems, like in Egypt's Tahir Square, in gender neutral terms? These are women demonstrating for basic rights, being attacked and assaulted by gangs of men. But we can't say that is sexism? What about the girl that was shot by the Taliban for going to school, targeted specifically for being female? We can't admit that they targeted her for trying to be an educated girl? Or the woman in India that was raped with a metal rod on the bus. They didn't do that to her male friend that was with her. But men have been raped, so we can't talk about how women in her society and caste have to travel in packs to be safe?

[The Evil Doer]

So what is your point exactly? That sexism as a term can't exist because men can be victims? That people can't talk about it as a problem? Maybe shouldn't be trying to pass legislation? Should we close battered women's shelters and cut their funding?

 

That's like saying we can't talk about child abuse or pedophilia, we just have to call it all one word so no one gets left out or offended.

 

Or do we have to talk about the current problems, like in Egypt's Tahir Square, in gender neutral terms? These are women demonstrating for basic rights, being attacked and assaulted by gangs of men. But we can't say that is sexism? What about the girl that was shot by the Taliban for going to school, targeted specifically for being female? We can't admit that they targeted her for trying to be an educated girl? Or the woman in India that was raped with a metal rod on the bus. They didn't do that to her male friend that was with her. But men have been raped, so we can't talk about how women in her society and caste have to travel in packs to be safe?

Sexism is discrimination based on a person's sex, predator that preys on a mentally weaker individual using manipulations, convincing her/him of their unworthiness is not an act of "sexist" nature, that is unless you believe that females are mentally weaker than men, I dont believe that...

Rape on another hand is of sexist nature coz girls are indeed (on average) physically weaker than men...

Edited February 16, 2013 by The Evil Doer

[earthgirl]

Where there is weakness, someone will abuse it - law of nature that works for both us humans and animals...

 

Weakling must acknowledge his flaws and get stronger coz by doing so he takes the power away from any potential abuser, powerless abuser is an irrelevant abuser...

 

Abuser, is IMO a person with issues coz whoever need to harm/abuse others to feel good about themselves has issues, whether its sadism, egoism, low self esteem themselves is not really the point, the bottom line is whatever the abuser's problem is he/she is indeed mentally stronger or simply smarter than the abusee coz to manipulate others into doing things or to convince others of things one must be mentally stronger than his/her "target"...

An abuser is a person with issues, yes, but definitely NOT a smarter person.

Someone who is really smart would not bully/abuse other human being. That they know how to manipulate and terrorize it is not a sign of intelligence. That only makes them evil beings, with a low level of conscience.

Or I'd better call them sociopaths. Yeah, that's the right word for ém.

They are way weaker than the victim, because they simply cannot have control over their own actions.

I have yet to hear of cases of animals abusing other animals the way humans abuse other humans mentally. Bully physically, maybe. Ive seen large dogs bully small dogs. That's the ways of nature, indeed.

Dogs are animals.

Humans should know better.

 

 

 

-------------

 

On-topic: I've seen a lot of sexism where I live and the sad thing is that its been induced into children as well. I have seen boys treating girls like they are dumber and less worthy than boys are. Which is a sad sad situation, because they learned discrimination as kids and will grow up with it. They will copy what they see in their own house. If daddy treats mommy like garbage, their boy will do the same with the female schoolmates.

I have also seen full-grown men who just spit on the sidewalk when they see a woman passing by. How 'charming'.

Younno, I became a little wary myself each time I see a larger group of noisy men/teenagers approaching on the sidewalk. I just know that they are going to say something/touch me or even worse and most of the time i just cross the street to avoid them.

(And honestly,Ii've seen 8-year olds doing this also to fully grown women)

I know this also sounds a bit sexist coming from me, but I've had my own experiences. I've been cornered several times by such gangs, touched, slapped, etc. I just don't like it when someone invades my personal space like that.

How can I not be defensive in these conditions?

[Vhale]

You still haven't explained your point, because there are plenty of people that DO believe that women are inferior mentally. Hence, why women were not allowed to own property or vote... or drive or testify in court. That right to vote was questioned by some of our (US) politicians in this very election cycle as well as the right to divorce. It sounds like you are trying to argue semantics. That an abuser that specifically targets women can't be called sexist. I'm not sure what you gain by being more generalized about their motives. And what you posted was not a straight on definition, but an assignment of mutual blame to victims of abuse with an emphasis on including both genders. As if victim blaming is okay if we make it gender neutral.

[AngelKitty]

...the bottom line is whatever the abuser's problem is he/she is indeed mentally stronger or simply smarter than the abusee coz to manipulate others into doing things or to convince others of things one must be mentally stronger than his/her "target"...

No, they simply need to know how the mind works and be able to spot someone susceptible to that influence, usually someone with low self-esteem.

 

Nobody would call my mother weak-willed or whatever, but her self-esteem has always suffered, and it's gotten her into trouble more than once.

[Obscure_Trash]

Women are predators as well, abuse is not exclusive to males (hence its not a sexism issue at all !!!!!), Whichever gender the predator is, abusee is partially at fault as well coz one can not exist without the other, predator can not and I say this again CAN NOT manipulate or psychologically abuse a person that has a strong persona, only the weak one can be taken advantage of and this phenomena has been going on throughout our entire history (survival of the fittest, slavery, bullying, cults, pick whatever)...

 

Men make up the majority of abusers (like 95%+). No one is denying there are women abusers or male victims. This doesn't disprove sexism, though. =\ Sexism doesn't mean it only happens by men against women.

 

More victim blaming? Seriously, it's a psychological trap woven by abusers. Yes, an abuser is probably more likely to go after those with low self-esteem or low confidence or who have been abused before. But that doesn't mean always.

 

Just because it's happened before doesn't make it okay.

[demonicvampiregirl]

Women are predators as well, abuse is not exclusive to males (hence its not a sexism issue at all !!!!!), Whichever gender the predator is, abusee is partially at fault as well coz one can not exist without the other, predator can not and I say this again CAN NOT manipulate or psychologically abuse a person that has a strong persona, only the weak one can be taken advantage of and this phenomena has been going on throughout our entire history (survival of the fittest, slavery, bullying, cults, pick whatever)...

Yes women are predators but you don't see nearly as many as there are men. I don't get how anyone can say the abusee is ever at fault? What did they do to deserve this? What actions have they done that justified them being emotionally, physically or mentally abused in any way? What gives the abuser the right to even consider doing that to another? Doesn't matter if they are strong, weak, pink, purple whatever they don't deserve anything like that happening to them. There is no way you can justify it at all.

[KageSora]

Oh, didn't you guys know? It's totally their fault. They just need to (wo)man up and deal with it, get a thicker skin and shrug it off because that's what real (wo)men do. They're clearly weak and at fault because they totally didn't just shut down their emotional response and get tougher because that's life--you get tougher or you get screwed.

 

All sarcasm aside, I cannot fathom how people can ever think victim blaming is okay. Or that just because something CAN happen to a man there cannot be sexism against women involved.

 

It just... Boggles my mind.

[Syaoransbear]

Oh, didn't you guys know?  It's totally their fault.  They just need to (wo)man up and deal with it, get a thicker skin and shrug it off because that's what real (wo)men do.  They're clearly weak and at fault because they totally didn't just shut down their emotional response and get tougher because that's life--you get tougher or you get screwed.

 

All sarcasm aside, I cannot fathom how people can ever think victim blaming is okay.  Or that just because something CAN happen to a man there cannot be sexism against women involved.

 

It just...  Boggles my mind.

I agree. Through the last part of this thread I've probably written like 10 posts and then deleted them all because I'm just having so much trouble comprehending how people think it's the victims fault. I'm completely boggled over here.

[MedievalMystic]

You're an expert on YOU.

 

Indeed. That's what I meant.

 

 

I'll admit that I don't get the 'victim' mindset in these types of situations, and I feel I can talk about this because I lived it. For over 20 years till I got the hell out of my mother's house. I've dealt with the same crap everyone has mentioned here. But where does being a victim end and taking some responsibility for your own fate/life begin? That's what I really want to know. Or are victims just that....victims forever?

 

Oh, didn't you guys know? It's totally their fault. They just need to (wo)man up and deal with it, get a thicker skin and shrug it off because that's what real (wo)men do. They're clearly weak and at fault because they totally didn't just shut down their emotional response and get tougher because that's life--you get tougher or you get screwed.

 

Get tough or get screwed? You're damn right, and the proof is all in this thread. Those who haven't gotten tougher keep getting screwed, plain as day. Does it justify what an abuser does? No, of course not.

 

I can't get my head around some of this conversation. People have choices, damnit. If they can listen and believe in what an abuser tells them that brings them down, why in God's name can't victims believe what their supporters constantly tell them to bring them up? Nobody answered me on that one earlier. Or is a victims mind simply geared toward negativity and believing only that? My friends damn sure weren't listening to any of us that tried to help them...you know, the good guys. They made one excuse after another, over and over and over, year after year after year, and I'm really sorry, but when someone chooses, and that's what it is to me, to STAY in a situation that's in all ways unhealthy, will not listen to their supporters, and simply wallow endlessly, playing the victim card, my patience, compassion and understanding tend to wear real thin.

 

If someone is a victim of an abuser, how long are they allowed victim status and when, if ever, are they held accountable for their own decisions and actions? The way some of you are talking, these abuse victims are mindless drones that have been so heavily brainwashed that they can't think for themselves anymore. I call crap on that, because I lived it. It didn't matter how many times I was sent to the hospital for injuries caused my my mother's rages, it didn't matter how many times my mother hammered me with a deluge of negativity, or beat me bloody...yeah, it hurt like hell, and yeah, I was in pits so dark I didn't think I'd ever claw my way out, but in my mind, always, was the simple thought that that behavior from her was just plain WRONG, on all levels. I could still think, I could still reason. Have all the victims of abuse suddenly lost that ability?

 

No, I will never accept that someone can be a 'victim' for endless years. You choose it if you stay, and that's just how I see it. And I know for a fact that some people just wallow in that crap, and do I respect them for that, even though they're wearing a sign that says 'victim'? No. Somebody might be a victim at first, and maybe even a couple/3 years go by...but if someone chooses, willingly and knowingly, to stay in an unhealthy environment, and will NOT help themselves, what do they want and expect? Sympathy, soothing, and support forever? Do victims even CARE what they put other's through, their friends, family? Or do they simply feel entitled to never ending support, reguardless of the mental toll it takes on people who they supposedly care for?

 

Yeah, I don't get a lot of this, I'll admit it. I made choices, good ones, in spite of pain, in spite of depression. I've had good, healthy relationships, and my marriage of 14 years ended not because my ex was a bad guy, he's the best there is, but simply because I wanted it to end. Because I lived with an abuser, I know the signs of one, and I avoided those types like the plage. I've never been in any abusive relationship, except with my mother, because I CHOSE not to allow that crap, and the people that dish it, close to me. Is someone holding a gun to a victims head, and MAKING them go out with someone who's giving off bad vibes? If someone is so weak that they'll literally believe anything and everything they hear, and allow other's to define their worth, then they need professional help, and need to stay the hell away from relationships until they have a much healthier mindset, or what, they keep being the victim for all eternity? To me, that's just not acceptable. In my mind, the victim should be held accountable for their own lives, and yeah, choices, sooner or later. A free ride on the victim train until the day they die just doesn't cut it.

Edited February 16, 2013 by MedievalMystic

[Walker]

If it helps any, I understand where you're coming from MedievalMystic. There is a thin line between helping a friend and sacrificing your own sanity. Honestly, no one should be required to sacrifice their own well being to help someone else who is mentally hurt. It only makes the cycle worse, and there's no shame in saying, "Hey, I can't do this."

 

It's a tricky line, of course. You have to separate yourself from the person as carefully as you can and at least try not to make their pain worse. But sometimes they won't let you.

 

I don't agree with the mindset that the victims are to blame, but I also don't disagree with your mindset that you shouldn't be required to hold up people who have been in a vicious cycle for years. I don't really see a victim blamer when I look at you, just someone who knows what they mentally can and can't handle.

 

No one should be required to be nurturing at the expense of their own mental health: victim, friend of victim, family of victim, etc.

[MedievalMystic]

Thank you, Walker. Thank God someone really gets where I'm coming from here. <3

 

 

I found this article. It's pretty interesting. I've just been researching a little, really trying to understand what people are saying here. I'm not trying to damn or blame anyone, but I have what I think are logical questions, that's all.

 

 

Article

[St. Jimmy]

Get tough or get screwed? You're damn right, and the proof is all in this thread. Those who haven't gotten tougher keep getting screwed, plain as day. Does it justify what an abuser does? No, of course not.

It has nothing to do with how tough you are. And toughness doesn't help when you don't know what's going on isn't normal. I sure as hell know that. When it's obvious someone's being a jerk to me, then of course I'm not taking that crap from them and I deal it right back. But... I dated this guy when I was 16. While he never hit me, he was very good at guilting me into doing things I really didn't want to do. He was manipulative enough that yes, I did believe that I was a bad girlfriend unless I listened to him. I didn't break up with him over that - no, I only got out of that relationship because I was interested in someone else. Had that not happened, I might still be stuck with him.

 

If they can listen and believe in what an abuser tells them that brings them down, why in God's name can't victims believe what their supporters constantly  tell them to bring them up?

Sometimes, we don't even have supporters. My friends all supported my boyfriend throughout that relationship.

 

The way some of you are talking, these abuse victims are mindless drones that have been so heavily brainwashed that they can't think for themselves anymore.

You answered your own question. Victims are brainwashed into staying in that situation by their abusers. Or, threatened. Sometimes it's impossible to get away because the victim would be in actual physical danger.

 

but in my mind, always, was the simple thought that that behavior from her was just plain WRONG, on all levels.  I could still think, I could still reason.  Have all the victims of abuse suddenly lost that ability?

That's you. I believe you've already been told that not everyone thinks like you. While you may have been able to see that you were in an abusive situation, that's not always the case by a long shot. It's especially hard when you're not physically abused. Emotional manipulation is a lot harder to see, at least from what I've experienced.

 

Do victims even CARE what they put other's through, their friends, family?  Or do they simply feel entitled to never ending support, reguardless of the mental toll it takes on people who they supposedly care for?

It is not. About. Others. Yes, people trying to help the victim may be confused, they may feel hopeless, they may feel afraid. But if they really want to help the victim, they need to put their own feelings aside for the time and keep trying. They need to realise that it takes a lot of effort to help. The victim is damn well entitled to support from whoever's willing to help.

[Vhale]

It is not. About. Others. Yes, people trying to help the victim may be confused, they may feel hopeless, they may feel afraid. But if they really want to help the victim, they need to put their own feelings aside for the time and keep trying. They need to realise that it takes a lot of effort to help. The victim is damn well entitled to support from whoever's willing to help.

 

I'm going to say I agree with this: It is not. About. Others. Yes, people trying to help the victim may be confused, they may feel hopeless, they may feel afraid.

 

But not this: But if they really want to help the victim, they need to put their own feelings aside for the time and keep trying.

 

If we accept that everyone is different on how much abuse they can take, I think we also have to accept everyone is different on how much help they can give. And unfortunately, some people are entirely self-destructive. The problem I have with the previous comments was not that I think everyone can be saved. I know they can't and won't and some do not want it. But rather, having seen those same type of comments broadly used against people that can't fight back and by the abuser's themselves as excuses for what they do.

[KageSora]

No, you shouldn't sacrifice your own sanity to help somebody--then you're no good to either of you.

 

But, there ARE plenty of people who just go "Nope, don't wanna deal with this. Get your own stupid ass out of it because you're just choosing to be a lazy victim so we can all pity you" when things start to get a little hard.

 

If you genuinely need to take a step back for your own mental health, then by all means do so. But there are too damn many people who will abandon others simply because they don't feel like sticking with them through the hard times. THAT is where it's a problem--when you abandon an abuse victim not because you're own mental health is suffering, but because you don't care enough about them to try and help them.

 

I myself have taken a step back from helping a friend when my own life went to hell--I couldn't help him, after all, if I drove myself off a bridge or something.

 

And you know what a MASSIVE problem is?

 

Society has this thing where it seems to view abuse ONLY as physical abuse. If there's no marks, then it's not abuse. That's not true, but there's a disturbing number of people ready to discount any claims of abuse if there aren't scars and bruises.

 

Just like there are a disturbing number of people who refuse to entertain the idea that women can abuse men. Can't find the link, but I've seen a guy who said that when his wife was abusing him, and they went to therapy, the counselor looked at HER and asked if SHE felt safe--because, clearly, she could never be the abuser.

 

But, like that, society is still struggling with the idea that mental and emotional abuse are still forms of abuse.

 

So it can be a hell of a lot harder to get people to listen if you don't have the marks to prove it.

 

And, of course, then you have the people who say "Well, that's your own damn fault s/he hit you--you should have gotten out of there instead".

 

So, when you add that "you're just being a stupid victim stop it and get out" attitude into the "it's not abuse if you aren't being beaten" mindset...

 

It's really ing hard to get people to listen to you sometimes.

 

And what about all the times where a person grows up abused, and then gets into an abusive relationship? They may not even realize that it's not normal--they may think that their experience IS the norm, and never even consider that they're being abused.

 

The problem is... Not all victims of abuse realize they're being abused.

 

That is one of the BIGGEST problems. When the abuser has so warped their idea of reality that they cannot even realize they're being abused... Well, how the hell do you expect them to get out when they don't realize they need to?

 

In some cases, it may be obvious--but in some cases, by the time the abuse becomes obvious to the abused, they're already in a situation where they can't escape.

 

Perhaps they ended up with a kid, and are afraid that if they try to leave they or the child will be in danger--or that they won't be able to support the child. Some abusers do that to tie their victims to them.

 

Perhaps they're truly afraid for their lives if they try to escape--there are those who WOULD go after their victims and hurt them further if they tried to get away.

 

 

And, you know what? Even if they have choices--not everybody can see all their choices all the time.

 

Again, it's kind of like with depression. I HAVE had instances where I realized I had other options in hindsight--but at the time, I was too far into my own hole of despair that I didn't realize those options were there. I often need my parents to point out other options to me because my own mind is so wrapped up in the depression and the anxiety and fear of things that will make me worse that I don't even see those options.

 

They may not realize they have an option. In their might, it might be "stick with the person and maybe things will go back to how they used to be" or "starve on the streets". That may not be the only set of options they have... But how can they pick another option if they don't realize it's there?

 

And no, just having people tell you that it's there isn't always going to work.

 

If their mental health is so warped by that point that htey don't see the option... It's not surprising that they can't believe the option is viable when it's brought up.

 

Again, I've run into that myself. But I end up too afraid to consider that option because of my own anxiety and paranoia and I WANT to consider it but my own mind sabotages me and doesn't let me and I WANT to just flip a switch and turn off that fear and anxiety. But I can't. Instead I think of all the ways it could backfire on me, and end up making a worse choice because it's familiar instead of that other option that I'm terrified will make things worse.

 

I have wished so hard I could just change that aspect of myself. But that's just how my damn brain works. I cannot turn it off--and, often, I find that if I force myself to choose that option... It wrecks my mental health just as badly as the other choices because the anxiety and paranoia eat away at me even long after everything has gone smoothly.

 

 

Did it ever occur to you that some people take longer to toughen and wise up? Especially if the abuse's damage is compounded by things like, say, a mental disability. Or depression. Or some kind of disorder. But even if that weren't the case, some people take longer to get over it and break out of the cycle than others. And they do NOT deserve to be told to (wo)man the up and move on and then left to fend for themselves.

 

They need support to help get them to the point where they can stand on their own against their abusers. If they never get that support... They'll never realize they have legs of their own.

[MedievalMystic]

It has nothing to do with how tough you are. And toughness doesn't help when you don't know what's going on isn't normal.

 

Imho, mental toughness has eveything to do with it. You either get tough, or you stay weak and break. Which one will it be? Because that's what it boils down to when all is said and done.

 

 

Sometimes, we don't even have supporters.

 

I can relate. I am an only child. My dad was an alcoholic, although I never damned him for it. He was in WW2 once, and vietnam twice, and would wake in the night screaming about the viet kong. We existed in the same house, and that was about it. My mom was a loon. I was totally and completely alone. My mom didn't just abuse me, I watched my parents fist fights growing up, too. Lovely environment that. I grew up by myself and every good thing about me, and there are many good things about me, I credit to ME and my character alone. No one is responsible for who I am, how I am, and the decisions I made, but me.

 

 

Victims are brainwashed into staying in that situation by their abusers. Or, threatened. Sometimes it's impossible to get away because the victim would be in actual physical danger

 

I can understand threatened. That's why I believe in having a gun. If I ever found myself in a situation with some guy that managed to completely fool me, and that guy started to make me feel fear, especially for my life, or God help him, the lives of my two boys, I'd see him dead. No hesitation.

 

Long ago I was dating a guy, nothing serious, we'd been going out casually for about a month or two, and I never rush things. He seemed like a nice, normal guy. We had gotten into some minor disagreement, I can't remember the details now, but it was nothing major that I remember, we weren't screaming or anything, but out of nowhere he hauled off and bank handed me across the face so hard I hit the floor. That's the first...and last...time any man has hit me, and i never saw it coming. I immediately saw red and went absolutely berserk. I leaped up off of that floor and grabbed a butcher knife he had laying on the kitchen table and I chased him out of the house. He ran like a scared rabbit. I couldn't catch him, he kept a car between he and I. Lucky dog. And that was that. I got in my car and left. There was nothing to discuss. I didn't give a damn what his reasons were. The end. He did call later, oozing apologies, which didn't make a damn, and then he said something along the lines of 'Well, if you had just been more reasonable about the whole thing, I wouldn't have lost my temper'. God, it was my mother all over again. I ran like hell. What's the alternative to that? Staying around and listening to him tell me crap about how if I just wasn't so lacking all would be well? Yeah, sure. I'm buying it. Not.

 

I think the major difference in my mentality and other's is that I have a deep capacity for extreme coldness, and when it comes to certain things, I have a very short fuse. For example, I've never bowed down to peer pressure. I do what I want, I think the way I think, and what everyone else is doing and thinking be damned, even if it makes me a weirdo or an outcast. I simply don't care. If anyone, I don't care who it is, tries to push me into doing things I don't want to do, because I'm uncomfortable or whatever, and I say no and ask them to stop, but they keep on anyway, I'm immediately very angry and I just want away from that person. If I say no, it means no, and if people can't respect that, get the hell out of my life. Simple as that in my own mind.

 

 

It is not. About. Others

 

Are you kidding me? What do you mean, 'It's not about others'? It damn sure is about others if you're expecting them to support you. We're not robots without our own damn feelings, that can endlessly give of ourselves. Supporting my friends made me sick after awhile, literally. After years of seeing that crap they dealt with, lived with, and wouldn't LEAVE, I was a nervous, mental wreck. Like I said, I'm supportive to an extent, for a while. Sometimes a long while. But I have my limits. I'm not going down and staying in the dregs for anybody and if you(general)won't help yourself, as far as I'm concerned, you don't deserve, nor are you entitled to, endless support.

 

KageSora, I really wish you were my friend in RL. I'd kick your ass but in a good way. You sound like you really want out of this mental trap that you're in, you don't sound like you're wallowing in it. I'd do my damndest to help you claw your way out. I've watched my friends deal with all this, and the frustration, the sadness, is just overwhelming after awhile. I wanted to HELP my friends, I wanted to see them at peace and smiling, with men who were worthy, not walking around like whipped dogs, and after being around that awhile, I was depressed.

 

 

If I come off as angry, or superior, that's not my intent. How can I explain this...when I was a young kid, as I said, I was alone, no siblings. My parents didn't know where I was or what I was doing half the time. Nobody was hugging me and telling bedtime stories. There was a lot of violence between my parents, and screaming matches and things breaking were simply every day life for me in that house. You can imagine how much fear and anxiety a situation like that would cause in a very young kid not even in kindergarten. Anyway, I had to learn coping skills. I didn't have anyone to tell me anything, to explain things, to help me. I had to think for myself, I learned to listen to only my own mind, because what was outside of my mind was a really scary, dark place, and I didn't want anything to do with it. I had a fantasy world in my head to beat all fantasy worlds. I got so good at tuning the real world out that I wouldn't even hear my parents anymore. I just...left...mentally. Growing up with my mother especially, I had to learn to become very observent and to read body language very well. There were lulls in my mom's rages, but I never knew when the next bomb was going off, so I learned to read her facial expressions, the angle of her body, was she leaning forward, was she tense, was she relaxed, etc, and I learned to disappear accordingly when I saw another storm was hovering on the horizon. I disappeared not only physically and hid somewhere, I disappeared mentally. Because I grew up listening only to myself, I learned to listen to my gut. What my gut instints told me to do, I did, without question. If my mom was in a rage, she forgot about me sometimes. I liked it like that, because if she suddenly remembered I existed in that state of mind, it wasn't going to be good. What all this babbling boils down to is that I simply developed coping skills, and I learned to listen to my instincts, to my own voice, and I just think if abuse victims got into their own minds, and listened to their own voices for a change, instead of listening to their abusers, they might start to crawl out of the holes they're in. What I did as a kid bled into my adult life. I'm suspicious of people. No, not in a mean, unfriendly way, but I'm just very cautious who I let up close and personal into my life. I can read people very well, and I'm never wrong. Within 5 minutes of meeting someone, my gut will let me know if there's something...off...and I listen. I'm really good at staying away from losers and predators that way. When I was a young teen and adult, I did the same thing, I listened to my own voice, not the crowds, and I made decisions based on how I felt about something, not on how the majority felt. And it's served me well.

 

No, I can't really understand the mindset that keeps someone with an abuser. Because of my mother I value peace and tranqulity so much. I love a calm, peaceful environment, where I feel safe, and everything around me is designed for comfort and peace. I love having people around me that are good, and positive. The thought of ever being in that hell that I lived growing up again makes me physically ill. I want no part of some losers mental problems, and that's exactly what abusers are. Mental. I somehow managed to escape craziness. Damned if I'm ever willingly going back, or allowing anyone on earth to bring it into my life. I guess it all boils down to how badly you really want something...and I want peace more than I want anything else imaginable, so...I have it. And I'm keeping it, at all costs. And I just think that anyone can get here if they really want to.

Edited February 17, 2013 by NixAyum

[Vhale]

You're not the only one that's done that, or been through that. Or is going through that. To me, you come off as someone who is resentful that they couldn't help someone and is seeking to justify walking away. No one here could make that judgement call.

 

But, the original comments weren't about that. They were in response to things like this:

if a chick, any chick, is going to walk around half naked and then squeal because more aggressive men or women make comments, stare, or whatever....well, again, imho, there's something wrong with that picture, and I don't blame the ones making the comments.

 

Again, what bothers me about that is it's basically saying, She was Asking For It. And a LOT of guys use that excuse, not just about grown women. My sister dumped a story on her that a cop she works with shared. They were interviewing a new guy for the force per procedure. They always get a specific person to do so to see if anything alarming comes out. Power tripping etc. In this case, the guy started ranting on how his 4 year old daughter that "washed" him in the shower liked to dance provocatively and deliberately turn him on. That she "knew" what she was doing.

 

So I suppose what people are trying to say is this. Ask people to accept responsibility for their actions, sure. Empower them. Great. But absolve the other party? Oh hell no... And not with the same phrases that people like the above use to justify their actions.

[St. Jimmy]

But not this: But if they really want to help the victim, they need to put their own feelings aside for the time and keep trying.

I'm sorry, I probably should have been a bit clearer about this. I meant if the person wants to help, AND is able and willing to make sacrifices to do it. It made a lot more sense in my head.

 

Imho, mental toughness has eveything to do with it. You either get tough, or you stay weak and break.

Y'know, I was a lot of things in that relationship, but weak definitely wasn't one of them. Same deal with my abusive parents. With them, I'm not even able to get away. Not without living on the streets. You'd still call me weak for staying with them?

 

No, I can't really understand the mindset that keeps someone with an abuser.

If you can't understand, then listen to those of us who know what it's like to not be able to leave, or not understand that what we're experiencing is abuse.

 

You want to know why people make excuses? To keep us safe. I know my parents are emptionally abusive. If I don't pretend everything's okay, I'd be kicked out of their house. If anyone would even believe me. They act fine around everyone else. All they see is a happy, if somewhat broken, family. To them, I'd just be the dramatic teenager crying abuse when they don't get their way. I have to pretend and hide the scars to keep my parents happy.

[MedievalMystic]

You'd still call me weak for staying with them?

 

Not until I knew a lot more detail about the whole thing. Like, what steps are you taking, what action are you taking or looking into to make sure you get the hell out? Do you have a plan? Are you researching all your options? And so on. I'd have to know so much more than I do now. If I knew you well, and I found out that the only thing you were doing was sitting in a corner, a mental wreck, sobbing and mired in misery, and you did that for years, and that was it...yeah, then I'd call you weak at that point. To your face, because I'd want you to face reality and DO something. If all you do is make one excuse after another, one reason after another, if all I heard from you was 'I can't, I can't, I can't!' ...Well, I can't either, and I'd leave you to it.

 

 

And Vhale, I apologize, the 'whatever' that you bolded wasn't meant to imply anything. I certainly would not condone any man putting his hands on any women even if she was walking down the street nude. But comments and stares about it? You bet. Ur, not that I necessarily condone the comments and stares, especially anything nasty, but I'd get it.

 

 

But absolve the other party? Oh hell no..

 

I totally agree.

Edited February 17, 2013 by MedievalMystic

[St. Jimmy]

If I knew you well, and I found out that the only thing you were doing was sitting in a corner, a mental wreck, sobbing and mired in misery, and you did that for years, and that was it...yeah, then I'd call you weak at that point. To your face, because I'd want you to face reality and DO something. If all you do is make one excuse after another, one reason after another, if all I heard from you was 'I can't, I can't, I can't!' ...Well, I can't either, and I'd leave you to it.

Well, you don't know me well, and you'd have to have serious balls to call me weak to my face.

 

There's a lot more I'd like to say on the subject, but I'm going to take a break before I either get triggered or say something unnecessary.

[MedievalMystic]

Well, you don't know me well, and you'd have to have serious balls to call me weak to my face.

 

Yes. And I do. And I would. If all I saw was weakness, I'd call you on it. That's how I survived, that's what stopped me from breaking like a twig back in the day. I got some major, big, fat, HUGE balls. I don't allow weakness in myself, why should I allow it in YOU, if I'm your friend? I'm the type of friend who forces you to look in the mirror, even if you hate me for it. At least then I walk away knowing I did my best and it wasn't me that failed, it was you.

Edited February 17, 2013 by MedievalMystic

[KageSora]

Actually, in that case... It damn well could be you that failed.

 

See, not everybody reacts the same way to the same types of help. With me, I need a little bluntness now and then--but I don't need a lot of tough love. I don't need people standing and pointing out every flaw to my face, telling me to suck it the up and move on, that I'm being a coward and pathetic and weak.

 

You try that with me, trying to "help" me? All you'd do is break me further.

 

Some people DO need that. Sometimes they need that, and they respond well to it. They may not like it, but it helps in the end.

 

Other times, it does more damage and makes it even harder for the person to break out of it--especially if they then feel betrayed and have an even harder time trusting "friends" because of it.

 

See, the problem here is that not everybody reacts the same way.

 

I admit it--I'm fragile. I AM weak, in many aspects. I'm strong in others. But I'm fragile.

 

A good kick in the pants CAN be helpful--if it's administered with only JUST the right amount of force and at the exact right time. If it's not, it just makes me pretend it helped then continue breaking apart. It speeds up the damage being done.

 

See, that's YOUR weakness, Mystic. You're coming off as a person with zero tolerance for those who will not be able to react the same way you would to that kind of treatment. Your weakness is that you cannot understand the fact that the exact kind of "help" you would give could just make things worse in some people.

 

Better work on that, then, since you don't allow weakness in yourself.

 

I'm very glad we're not friends. If I had a friend who was like how you're coming off here, I would have offed myself years ago convinced I was an utter failure who would never be worth anything to anyone. And that's a fact--because I know that's how it would affect me.

[KageSora]

Sorry, I can't read it if the link leads to a broken page.