Sexism

[MedievalMystic]

So instead of helping your "close friends" who have probably been manipulated, without their knowledge, by their abuser into staying with them, you're gonna sit here and call them stupid on the Internet.

 

Actually, I was the close friend my friends called when they needed help...you know, with rent, utilities, food, diapers, etc, etc, etc. I paid many of their bills, and brought over countless bags of food, and have handed over counless thousands. Were they stupid for staying in that situation? Hell yeah. They kept going back. They didn't learn anything. I ended those friendships because I couldn't freaking stomach hearing one more excuse for bruises and black eyes. My friends made ME the enemy if I dared say a word against their precious abusers. So..yeah. They were pretty damn stupid.

Edited February 15, 2013 by MedievalMystic

[WereJace]

Walker, I'm glad you shared that and that we're talking about this. I'll admit, people see my views as very hard and harsh, but I can't seem to help myself. I can't, no matter how hard I try, seem to be able to understand the mindset that you're describing. I want to, I try. I've listened to my friends...and it all comes off like gibberish to me. If someone goes through a thing and learns, they're never stupid. But I watched good friends of mine go back to these types of guys again and again and I just didn't GET it. I couldn't comprehend what was going through their minds. To me, it's pretty damn simple. You make me feel like crap almost all the time, you say negative things to my face, you disrespect and disregard my feelings, you physically hit me....No, you DO NOT care about me, and in my eyes, that's clear as day and the second I've got that figured out, I'm out the door, and for me, that's not hard at all, that's the only option. I totally admit not understanding the reasons it would be any other way.

When you refer to them as stupid or abandon othem as a friend you are only confirming what their abuser is telling them. That they are worthless, dumb, will not do better, deserve abuse, etc.. It isn't an easy thing to see a friend through abuse, especially when they end up back with their abuser, but they need someone to support them and to be ready to help when they do decide to get out.

[The Evil Doer]

When you refer to them as stupid or abandon othem as a friend you are only confirming what their abuser is telling them. That they are worthless, dumb, will not do better, deserve abuse, etc.. It isn't an easy thing to see a friend through abuse, especially when they end up back with their abuser, but they need someone to support them and to be ready to help when they do decide to get out.

You can't help someone who won't help themselves....

[MedievalMystic]

I have a good buddy on another site. She was with a very abusive man for a lot of years, was married to him. He was verbally and physically abusive. She said that her friends disappeared one by one over the years. At first, she blamed them, and thought them lousy. Later, looking back after she finally divoced the guy, she said she realized just how hard it must have been for people that loved her, cared about her, had tried to support and help her, to watch her getting her arse kicked almost daily. And she said she did the same thing, when I described how my friends damned me if I said anything about the guy. She said she understood just how hard it must have been on her family and friends to watch.

 

 

The bottom line, sure I can be supportive, I can try to help you, I will stay up till 3 a.m to talk, I will come over and spend all day being your rock....to a certain extent. If I see that someone isn't willing to help themselves, there's not a damn thing I'm going to be able to do to change a single thing and frankly, I don't want to see someone I care about self destruct. After awhile it tends to make you a little stressed, anxious, and depressed. Not to mention sick to your stomach. And angry. I personally couldn't watch anymore.

Edited February 15, 2013 by MedievalMystic

[Syaoransbear]

If women don't get the respect they're constantly screaming about, maybe more of them should keep their legs shut for just a leetle while longer than a day or week or month.

I don't get it. So if women want respect as people and they don't want to be treated as sex objects, they are supposed to be more selective about who they have sex with, yet men can continue having sex with whoever they please and no such 'sex object' status is placed on them. Why? Why do men get to be people and we get to be objects?

[KageSora]

Creep shaming is similar to shaming. It could be lookism or being quiet or socially awkward.

Only being a is about your personal choices, and you're not really hurting anybody by sleeping around--if people don't like it, that's too bad.

 

Being a creep is being rude and a jerk and making other people feel uncomfortable and/or unsafe. It's not the same thing.

 

Did the sexualized ads really played a big part on men being disrespectful, though? It seems a whole lot like the complaint that Twilight is causing girls to accept bad relationships with men or video games are a big reason for massacres. There’s also the other side where women find it empowering and will want to try to gain parity by sexualizing men more.

 

I don't think it's solely responsible for the behavior of men--but it DOES reinforce the idea that it's okay, that me can treat women like objects.

 

Twilight isn't the only reason girls have bad relationships. But it shows how accepted it is in our culture and reinforces the ideas that are already there.

 

Video games don't cause massacres--but they can be reflective of that darker side of human nature that's fascinated by death. They can reinforce that part in people who aren't as able to separate fact from fiction, just like in the above--if you're of sound mine, you can realize that the relationships in Twilight aren't healthy, that the treating women (and in some cases, men) as objects isn't right.

 

But there are a sad number of people who are exposed to these things before they might be ready to understand them.

 

Advertising is worse than the others, IMO, because while you may be able to keep an impressionable child away from violent games or questionable romance stories, you probably won't be able to keep them away from advertisements treating human beings as accessories.

 

-snip-

That I will agree with. Lack of communication.

 

But it's not just people saying there's an issue with how men look at women. Too many men just go "Women are complicated s" instead of trying to understand them. It goes both way.

 

That I really agree with. BOTH sides need to communicate. That would help a heck of a lot, I think. It's a big thing. Part of it, I think, is that we ARE conditioned by society to think people want specific things based on their gender, which inhibits the communication. We need to get past that, and to see each other as people. It's kind of funny--in the US, sex is treated both casually and as taboo. You aren't supposed to talk about it a lot of the time, but at the same time sex is thrown at you all the time, so people really think about sex and want it but they don't want to talk about it so there isn't proper communication.

 

If the guy genuinely didn't know the woman wanted more, that's both of their faults for not communicating. If he did and slept with her anyway, that's his fault. But, the reverse is true, too--if she just wanted casual sex but he wanted a relationship, she's at fault if she sleeps with him while knowing that he wants more from it than she is.

 

You can't help someone who won't help themselves....

True. But if you stick with them, it can eventually give them the strength and drive to help themselves. Giving up because it's hard just helps to strike down their desire to help themselves.

 

Sticking with them, and supporting them, and telling them they need to help themselves--but not just dumping them after you say that--can help them start helping themselves.

 

I'd know--I've been there. It took years. But, eventually, because I had people who put up with me I learned to help myself and to stand up to the person who was manipulating me.

 

You'd probably think it's stupid that I've still remained friends with him--but we had a nice talk about it, and he understands what he did was wrong--he felt bad about doing it. We were both pretty broken at the time, and were both doing things in our friendship that were bad. But we both learned from it when we learned to stand up to the crap the other was doing, and we've moved past that and have a stronger friendship because of it--and we've started to heal more and know not to do that to other people.

[AngelKitty]

When you refer to them as stupid or abandon othem as a friend you are only confirming what their abuser is telling them. That they are worthless, dumb, will not do better, deserve abuse, etc.. It isn't an easy thing to see a friend through abuse, especially when they end up back with their abuser, but they need someone to support them and to be ready to help when they do decide to get out.

THANK YOU. Material help is great and all, but abuse victims need emotional and mental support, not just things and money. And certainly not to be called stupid, foolish, and whatever else.

[MedievalMystic]

THANK YOU. Material help is great and all, but abuse victims need emotional and mental support, not just things and money. And certainly not to be called stupid, foolish, and whatever else.

 

Yes, material help really is great, isn't it? And I personally gave as much of myself to my friends as I had to give in every way I had to give it, emotionally, financially, you name it. And I'll tell you that it almost drained me dry emotionally. After years , and like someone said, sometimes it takes years, of watching my friends live in a hell of their own choosing, yeah, I said it, I had had it. I was done. Because of what dealing with their constant misery, their constant black mental states, their constant, never ending neediness did to ME. I felt drained dry and worn the hell out from it. Yeah, I stepped away. Yes, I stopped being so supportive. Why? Because they were killing me, that's why, and I just couldn't deal anymore. They had more freaking energy than I did I felt so drained.

 

I'll be blunt, and at this point who cares if people hate me for my views? It's what it is, and this is how I think about my 'victim' friends. And damn, did they roll around in victimhood. They refused to walk away from a situation that was unhealthy in every single way, and while they had the luxury to wallow in that misery, and seemed pretty damn content to do just that, they were draining the life and joy out of every single person who was trying to be so supportive. My friends never gave a single thought to what having to see them beaten down was doing to me, to their families, or anyone else trying to help. They didn't see squat because they were incapable of seeing beyond their misery and victimhood.

 

I'll own it right here and now. I am not, and never will be, so good a friend, lover, mother, or whatever, that I'll sacrifice myself for you, that I'll drain my accounts till I have nothing, give and give and give and give and give support until I'm a mentally exhausted, stressed out, sick to my soul, husk for anybody. If that's what victims require through the freaking years it takes them to wise the hell up and realize that being mentally and physically beaten down day in and day out isn't a good thing, I'm real sorry. I won't do it again, ever. If some guy treats me like crap, then tries to turn it on me by blaming me, so the hell what? Let him blame me. Let him HAMMER it into my head, or try to, that it's all my fault. He can talk that smack to my ass as I'm walking out the door. I'm really, really sorry that women stay in such a horrific situation for whatever reason, but you know what, after a time, after a couple of years of that crap, it's not going to be my problem anymore because I'm not going to be there. It's not my responsibility as your friend to 'save' you, if 5 years down the line you're still not quite sure why you're staying with someone that treats you like a whipped dog. I don't know either. And frankly, I don't want to. No, I don't get why anybody on God's green earth can be what amounts to brainwashed, but with me, it's black and white. If I feel like hell with someone, anyone, no matter who it is, the vast majority of the time, that's all I need to know to get the hell out of dodge, and to be totally and completely honest after my ordeals with my girlfriends, I don't want people that just don't get it in my world, I don't want their misery, and I don't want the drama, and I don't want the heartache. When I get damned because I try and HELP you, when you stand by your abuser and and listen to nothing and no one, if you meet me, you're on your own and more power to you and I'll wish you the best, and that's that. Those types need someone with a halo a lot shinier than mine.

 

 

Material help is great and all, but abuse victims need emotional and mental support, not just things and money.

 

That comment kills me. You sound so flip when you say that. 'Oh yeah, my friends/family gave me $500 today, and paid my rent last month, and my light bill this month, and that's nice and all, but damn it, I NEED MORE, I need EMOTIONAL support, too, I need someone to spend their time soothing me after 20 years with this guy that's torturing me!' All I hear is want, want, want, me, me, me in that comment, whether you meant it to sound that way or not. If all you get are things and money, you should be on your knees thanking God for it.

Edited February 15, 2013 by MedievalMystic

[Vhale]

If all you get are things and money, you should be on your knees thanking God for it.

 

Every guy knows, if you buy things for a woman she should be grateful and put out. It's the classic example isn't it? The abuser that buys a woman material things and tells her he loves her as long as she'll just do what he says. I can easily see where people get their messages crossed and I've been there too. I've had to drill into my head, actions speak louder then words. It wasn't easy getting to that point.

[MedievalMystic]

Every guy knows, if you buy things for a woman she should be grateful and put out. It's the classic example isn't it? The abuser that buys a woman material things and tells her he loves her as long as she'll just do what he says. I can easily see where people get their messages crossed and I've been there too. I've had to drill into my head, actions speak louder then words. It wasn't easy getting to that point.

 

You know, maybe I really am totally and completely whacked for my way of seeing things and for the way my mind works, just like people tell me I am on the net, because I'm sorry, Vhale, I just don't get it. I guess my mind works in very simple ways. If I start going out with a guy and out of nowhere he starts spending a bunch of money on me, gifts, flowers, etc, etc, my flags are waving like they're in a hurricane. I take that kind of thing in a very negative way. I'm not flattered. I'm not feeling lucky and privledged to have found 'Mr. Wonderful'. I damn sure am not 'appreciative' or at all 'grateful', and God help the poor sap if he comes at me like I should be. I'd laugh in his face. I mean, really? Why should I be grateful because he chooses to spend his money? I damn sure didn't ASK him to. I wouldn't have accepted gifts, jewelry, whatever, to begin with from the guy. In my mind I'm already wondering what this guys problem is and my gut is poking me in a negative way, because buying me gifts, or spending all kinds of money on me is already a sign of control, imo, especially early in a relationship. I'm asking myself what this joker is after and what exactly he's trying to accomplish. And if he starts trying to manipulate me with the fact that he's spending money, commenting on it, or God forbid, complaining that I'm not 'grateful' enough, I'm gone so damn fast he'd feel the wind as I FLEW away from him, like I never existed. And no man, no man that's smart, better ever say the 'L' word within a month. Those are bad signs to me. (Yes, I do realize that there are good healthy relationships that started with love early on, but I'm talking about saying the 'l' word on top of all the rest. Then I'd take that as a bad sign) Anyone who over flatters me is suspicious in my eyes immediately, same with being too lovey dovey from the get go. No man is going to convince me that I should be grateful for his attentions, and if he tries, that already, right there, and that alone, by itself, tells me that something about this guy is no damn good because those kinds of actions are sending me bad vibes and sending off alarm bells.. Why is that hard to see?

Edited February 16, 2013 by MedievalMystic

[Alpha1]

Only being a censorkip.gif is about your personal choices, and you're not really hurting anybody by sleeping around--if people don't like it, that's too bad.

 

That word is like loser, womanizer, pig, idiot, and all those other words that people say to others they dislike. It’s ineffective against males because it’s like calling a white person a cracker, but there are other words like loser if someone wants to tell them what they think of their choices. In the case of Sandra Fluke, that meant going to Congress asking others to pay for her contraceptives when she was like thirty. In another case, a woman cheating on her boyfriend may be labeled a , while a guy doing the same would be called an a-hole. Being called a has less to do with people having lots of sex and more to do with reasons on top of having been with more than one person.

 

Being a creep is being rude and a jerk and making other people feel uncomfortable and/or unsafe. It's not the same thing.

 

Yes, but I gave reasons (e.g. lookism) why it can be shaming for no good reason. Both of those words involve subjectivity.

 

I don't think it's solely responsible for the behavior of men--but it DOES reinforce the idea that it's okay, that me can treat women like objects.

Advertising is worse than the others, IMO, because while you may be able to keep an impressionable child away from violent games or questionable romance stories, you probably won't be able to keep them away from advertisements treating human beings as accessories.

 

If a boy looks at pron, is it objectification if they look at the attractive ones?

 

You can raise them differently than in a dysfunctional household with no tight-knit community. There are tons of men who don’t view women as sex objects and have seen those ads, movies, video games, etc. So the ad tells us that it’s okay for a guy to grab a girl’s butt or that rape is okay? I think a lot of this has to do with dysfunctional families, socioeconomic differences, and innate differences between the sexes.

 

Why do men get to be people and we get to be objects?

 

Because most of the time a guy asks for sex, they object.

[catstaff]

No man is going to convince me that I should be grateful for his attentions, and if he tries, that already, right there, tells you that this guy is no damn good. Why is that hard to see?

Maybe because for those of us who have been in abusive situations in the past, it's because we start out with such low self-esteem that we DO feel grateful for the attention. He doesn't have to convince us of anything, because we ALREADY BELIEVE we won't get good things in life, so when someone gives them to us, it feels like a miracle. We ARE grateful, because we're getting the attention we always wanted and never felt we got.

 

It's not like the abusers start dating/sleeping with someone and immediately start hitting them, after all. It starts out mental/emotional and small, usually with them focusing on a flaw you already know you have, and always "for your own good, because they care". And honestly, for a lot of us, we grew up hearing something similar from our own parents (grades, weight, hairstyle, insert other parental issue here), so in the beginning, we thought he meant it.

 

For me, it was my driving... I have a problem with my depth perception that cannot be corrected. I've learned to compensate over the years, but I do have trouble judging distances. When I met my abuser, I was still in high school and had just gotten my license maybe six months earlier. He would often have me drive when we went out together, telling me that more driving practice would be good. Which made perfect sense to me, as I didn't have my own car and didn't often get to use my mom's. Well, because of the problem judging distance, any time I had to turn left when there was oncoming traffic, I either went when the oncoming car was way too close for safety, or else I'd wait forever because I thought it was too close when it wasn't. And slowly, over a couple of years, it went from, "Catstaff, you should have waited to make that turn... I don't want you getting hurt in an accident," to "Geeze, Catstaff, haven't you learned to judge that better yet?" to, "What are you, stupid that you still can't get that right?" and you know what? I believed it! Because I KNEW my judgement was off, and I truly BELIEVED that if I just tried harder, I'd get it right.

 

And that's why it's so hard to see.

 

I can also say, by the time my abuser moved from mental/emotional to physical abuse, he'd slowly but surely taken control of my life. I didn't have many friends to begin with and the few I did have all had babies, so I didn't notice that I spent less and less time with them... they were busy, and I was feeling awkward and that I no longer had as much in common with them, so to me, I felt as though we just sort of drifted apart. But looking back, I can see his influence there, disguised as humor, with comments like, "I sure hope you don't decide to get pregnant just to keep up with your friend, we really can't afford a baby right now." By the time he actually did start getting physical with me, I was pretty well convinced I was worthless, stupid, and that no one would help me since I'd "let" him treat me the way he did, therefore I must have deserved everything he dished out and more.

[KageSora]

That word is like loser, womanizer, pig, idiot, and all those other words that people say to others they dislike. It’s ineffective against males because it’s like calling a white person a cracker, but there are other words like loser if someone wants to tell them what they think of their choices. In the case of Sandra Fluke, that meant going to Congress asking others to pay for her contraceptives when she was like thirty.  In another case, a woman cheating on her boyfriend may be labeled a , while a guy doing the same would be called an a-hole. Being called a has less to do with people having lots of sex and more to do with reasons on top of having been with more than one person.

 

 

 

Yes, but I gave reasons (e.g. lookism) why it can be shaming for no good reason. Both of those words involve subjectivity.

 

 

 

If a boy looks at pron, is it objectification if they look at the attractive ones?

 

You can raise them differently than in a dysfunctional household with no tight-knit community. There are tons of men who don’t view women as sex objects and have seen those ads, movies, video games, etc. So the ad tells us that it’s okay for a guy to grab a girl’s butt or that rape is okay? I think a lot of this has to do with dysfunctional families, socioeconomic differences, and innate differences between the sexes.

I suppose we're just having a disagreement of what we view as shaming.

 

I don't consider it -shaming to just throw the word around because you're pissed off, or because it's just an insult.

 

I see it as -shaming if you intentionally target them for sleeping around with lots of people--even if you don't specifically use that word. If you are intentionally putting down a woman for having sex with several men--especially casual sex--but praising a man for doing the same, I see that as a double standard and -shaming. If you imply that they're a because they sleep with other people than you, I think that counts, too, since it's implying that it's unfair that you're not getting in on the action that's "clearly" going on.

 

If you're just pissed off because the girl is sleeping with the guy you like, you're shaming her for sex with a specific person not shaming her for sex with multiple people and you're just being an ass.

 

I do agree that if you are hating on somebody just for looking, then that's wrong. You shouldn't shame somebody just for having their attention captured--be it in a good way or a bad way.

 

But being angry and shaming a person who is leering creepily at you and making disturbing comments and maybe attempts at highly unwanted physical contact--especially if they continue after you tell them to stop or they then start insulting you for daring to capture their attention... Well, they deserve it for being an ass.

 

I agree that it's wrong if there's no reason other than "OMG HIS EYES FOCUSED IN THIS GENERAL DIRECTION!" But, if he's had his eyes glued to your boobs/butt/crotch for the last 10 minutes and is making creepy and/or suggestive faces at you and moves around to keep you in view when you try to just move away from him... Then he deserves it. Or she, since girls can totally stare creepily and be lewd towards guys. There are some nasty girls out there who do all the things they scream at men about, and they really aren't any better--they're worse, in fact, because in addition to being a creepy and/or a pervert they're a hypocrite, too.

 

I'd say for the porn thing, it depends. It's actually fully possible to engage in viewing porn, and still see them as people who simply do that for a living and that there's more to them than just being in porn.

 

If, however, his view of porn participants is that they're only worthwhile as objects for him to get off to, then that's a problem. (Or she, since girls can be just as bad in that regard)

 

Oh, I won't disagree that there's more to it than the ads. I'm never going to say that the ads are the only thing at fault. But they don't help--and, because of the fact that they're everywhere and pretty much the only way to never see them is to either never have contact with the outside world or live in the wilderness... Many people who DON'T have access to the upbringing that would give them the ability to properly understand that it's not okay in real life are shown them, and then aren't raised in a way that allows them to understand that it's wrong. It's really sad.

 

But, also, it reflects the part of society that doesn't think it's wrong because it's just how things are. And that, too, is sad.

 

But the ads are never the sole cause, and I agree that there are other factors that influence it.

 

 

 

 

Also, totally with catstaff on this one. I've had horrific self-esteem for a very long time. It took more than a DECADE for me to start finally seeing worth in myself--ironically, that was in part because of one of the people who turned out to be quite a nasty piece of work.

 

In my case, the fact that we liked some of the same things and that we could talk fairly easily just... I was lonely and broken and desperate so I clung to that. Even when he started showing his true colors, and when he started being an ass, and even when he started hurting another very good friend of mine who eventually had it out with him and severed ties with him over it...

 

I couldn't bring myself to step in, to stand up to him. Hell, I couldn't bring myself to stop talking to him even though he made me uncomfortable because I had, at that point, something like a grand total of 5 people I talked to as friends--4 of which lived in other countries and the other of which lived far enough away that we were lucky to see each other once a month.

 

So I was desperate for any kind of contact--especially since we shared a common interest that I tend to find people attack you for if they don't like it themselves. I couldn't bring myself to stand up to him, but thankfully we eventually drifted and I don't know what happened to him.

 

But at the time, I was just so... Alone, I was literally just clinging to any person who treated me like I had some spark of worth buried somewhere inside of me, no matter how nasty a person they were.

 

And, on some level, I knew it was wrong. But I was too broken to stop.

 

And this took place all online over two websites and we were nothing more than friends.

 

I can only imagine how much harder it would be if your manipulator and/or abuser was there in real life, you saw them (almost) every day, and they could reach out and hit you if they felt like it. I can only imagine how much worse that would be if you were in a romantic relationship.

[MedievalMystic]

This whole conversation has put me into a funk. It's brought back a lot of memories I haven't thought about in a long time, and also some of the frustrations, pain, and yes, anger, that I felt for my friends in abusive relationships.

 

 

People talk about the need for a support system, people who you know care about and love you, and I get and understand that need. That's normal. What I couldn't understand back in the day with my own friends is why they didn't listen to the very people that were supporting them. We were telling them that the man was a con artist, a liar, loser, and that they were beautiful souls who deserved peace, and love, and joy in life, not...abuse in all it's nasty forms. But it's like we were talking to the walls. Why couldn't they believe us?

 

I understand being verbally abused and physically abused. I grew up with the master, my mother. She can be a nasty peice of work. Some of my earliest memories as a kid were of her screaming, and throwing things. She was prone to extreme rages and tantrums, and she used emotions, tears, guilt trips, etc, like weapons. Even as a kid, and I'm talking 6-7 years old, I still, to this day, remember the feelings I had towards my mother, and what I felt the most was anger. I didn't have words at the time to put a name to some of those feelings, but now that I'm older and I look back I realize that the other major emotion I felt was contempt. I had a complete aversion to that woman growing up. I knew, without being told, in my kids mind, that she was about as looney as you could get. I felt, in my gut, even that young, that there was something seriously wrong with her behavior. I didn't know that young that her sole purpose in telling me how worthless and stupid I was was to make me feel bad about myself, but funny enough, I never did feel bad about myself even then, and something was telling me that she wasn't saying that crap to be nice. I also remember feeling a certain amount of pity for my mom. I felt sorry for her. I remember thinking to myself as I got older and more knowledable that it really must suck to be her, to feel such an intense need to flay anyone alive verbally, with the ugliest words imaginable. I got early on that the problem was certainly, by no means, in no way, shape or form, me. And I felt angry, so angry, that she constantly tried to hammer into my skull that I was the problem, I was the sole cause of all of her anger and rages and lack of control. I just... knew better, because that's what my gut was telling me, and I listened to that rather than listen to her. It's because I grew up with an abuser that I can very, very easily see those signs in other's.

 

Since I was a kid I've lived by a few golden rules. You disrespect me, walk on me, abuse me in any way, I will not have you in my world, and that's in granite. I never waver, never make excuses. If I catch even a wisp of what smacks of manipulation, control, mind games, whatever, it's over that instant. I grew up with a psycho, and one was more than enough. Damned if another will ever get near me. I just will not, I just refuse, to give anyone on this earth that kind of power over me, power my mother had beyond my control, by listening to, bowing down to, or accepting abuse in my life. I would rather die than give anyone the power to take away my peace of mind at will and decend into that black pit for anybody ever again. I know I'm worth more than that, and anybody that wants to know me, get close to me, better know it, too. I deserve to be treated with dignity, consideration, and respect, and I know it. Everyone should know it. And I think that's how everyone's attitude should be when confronted with abusers, and I wish it was just that simple. It should be.

 

Sorry for the wall o' text, I'm exhausted and babbling.

[KageSora]

You do realize that not everybody's brain works the same way, right?

 

That YOU might be lucky enough to be able to stand up to those who manipulate you doesn't mean EVERYBODY can. Sometimes it's because they don't realize they're being manipulated and abused. Sometimes, but the time they realize it, the damage has been done and they think they deserve it.

 

Not everybody can understand that they deserve to be treated with respect.

 

And understanding it in your head doesn't mean you can just magically flip a switch and suddenly not put up with manipulative BS.

 

I understand in my head that I'm worthwhile as a person. But, due to things like depression, I still take it and believe it at times when people imply that I'm worthless, and even when they don't it's been so ingrained in me for so many years I haven't shaken it completely--and, honestly, I probably never will. Not all of us can ever throw that off. Some of us will be marked by scars to our ability to believe in ourselves and respect ourselves forever.

 

And, sadly, there are a lot of men (and women, to be fair) who will prey on people like us. And, because of how we've been broken, sometimes we fall victim to that even if we might know in our heads that it's not quite right.

 

I do agree that it would be nice if it was that simple that everybody could just go "Screw you and your BS, I deserve to be treated like a fellow human with dignity and respect" when they're being abused and manipulated.

 

But the world doesn't work that way. Not all of us can do that.

 

I've had it so beaten into me for so many years that I'm worthless that even now I blame myself for things that aren't my fault.

 

Just the other day I got some food, and the person made a mistake and put cheese on when I specifically said no cheese. I was the one saying sorry when it wasn't my fault. I was the one apologizing for letting them know that there was a mistake. I was the one feeling horribly uncomfortable with them remaking my order for free.

 

Because I had it ground into my brain for most of my life that everything that went wrong was my fault.

 

And I'm not over that. I probably never will be. I'm way better than I was. But I'm not fixed, I'll probably always be a little broken.

 

And there are sick men out there who will prey on people like me, sensing our wounds and working to reopen them for their own gains. And, with the way society is with the victim blaming, we are the ones who are at fault, when it's not true.

 

(Also, to be fair, there are women who do that to vulnerable men. They're just as capable of doing that)

[Obscure_Trash]

So it's wrong for a man to pursue for sex, but what about the girl better known for the things she does on the mattress? Whoa!

Not really sure what you're saying here. Was this an attempt at shaming?

 

Unless a man is a rapist, which we've established that all men certainly are not, WOMEN decide if men have sex.

 

Actually it's a mutual commitment.

 

If women don't get the respect they're constantly screaming about, maybe more of them should keep their legs shut for just a leetle while longer than a day or week or month.

 

And you wonder why we're "screaming" for respect?

 

Women make it real easy for guys to be cads.

 

"Women" should be replaced with "patriarchal society".

 

But had the women waited to get to know them, waited to sleep with them, maybe they would have figured the guys character out before a kid was involved and avoided the situation.

 

I know plenty of divorced couples who knew each other well for a long time before doing anything. I know quite a few couples who liked each other off the bat, got together (and in some of these cases were cheating) and are doing just fine still.

 

Did she honestly expect romance after that weekend?

 

This is a case where it seems neither person communicated how they felt. Fault does not lie on one person.

 

He got what he wanted with the snap of a finger.

 

Men are a little deeper than just sex hogs. They are capable of commitment and respect.

 

Imho, women dig some of their own holes, and in my opinion, they can't have it both ways.

 

This is a human thing. Not a woman thing.

 

When men say that s word, they are more detached

 

So anger isn't an emotion now?

 

Creep shaming is similar to shaming

 

Except it's not. Creep shaming isn't even a thing wat.

 

shaming is the act of shaming women for exercising their choice and freedom.

 

Creep "shaming" is pointing out when men are being disrespectful or frightening.

 

Did the sexualized ads really played a big part on men being disrespectful, though?

 

They are a part of a patriarchal culture enforcing patriarchal views. So yes.

 

So, yes, while there is nothing wrong with casual sex it's not the sort of thing either sex should be doing without both parties being clear that that's what it is.

 

I do agree with everything you're saying on communication. Any relationship isn't going to work if the people involved can't communicate.

 

That's just not the message I'm getting from Mystic's posts. o_o

 

There are good and bad people on both sides. And refusing to aknowledge that doesn't help anyone.

 

I don't think we are denying it? That's what my point has been. Men aren't, by default, rapists. But a patriarchal society is one that advocates that view and teaches it as acceptable.

 

Whether a woman is an angel or not, they do face oppression in everyday life. As I said, patriarchy hurts everyone, male, female, or other. Which is why we should all be partners in dismantling it. =)

 

And those women, imo, are, indeed, stupid as hell and I don't want to hear the word 'victim' coming out of their mouths.

 

I don't think you understand how abuse works. If it were easy to walk away from abuse, more women would do it. But it's not. That's why it's abuse. The abuser makes you feel as if it's your fault, as if you're nothing, and like they're a hero. Like they're doing some big favor by staying with you. A victim, yes victim, can't just walk away from that. It messes you up and you believe it. It's not a matter of being stupid. It's a matter of you're a victim and you're being abused.

 

Often, abuse doesn't start right away. You're lured in and think they're a good person. Slowly, you become dependent on them. It may change dramatically or over time. But by that time you're already trapped. You know they're a good person. You've seen it. And they just warp your mind when that abusive side comes out and makes you think they're still a good person. That it's your fault. That you should be grateful. That they love you and couldn't live without you so you can't leave. It's not people refusing to leave. It's that they can't.

 

Mystic, I am glad that you seem to have broken the cycle. Often victims go to one abusive relationship to the other because they don't know anything else and don't know how to get out. I am glad that you got out! That doesn't mean everyone can, but I am glad you could. I am happy for all of you here who have shared your awful stories and have managed to walk away or somehow get out and move forward. <3

 

And if someone takes advantage of you, who's to blame? The person that took advantage, or the person that let them?

 

If I let someone do something, it's not taking advantage of me.

 

So, yeah, the victim isn't to blame. The jerk who's taking advantage is at fault. Always.

 

This is not a sexist thing, its about nature of animals/humans,

 

It is a sexist thing. The sexism is that we make excuses for the predatory man and blame the victim woman.

 

Being called a has less to do with people having lots of sex and more to do with reasons on top of having been with more than one person.

 

Reasons being that we're a sexist culture. If you want to call that a reason.

 

asking others to pay for her contraceptives

 

Boo healthcare!

 

If a boy looks at pron, is it objectification if they look at the attractive ones?

 

The porn industry is built off of unrealistic and often dominating relationships of men with women. It's also an industry that takes advantage of women. It brings in women who are already defeated with low self-esteem and breaks them down even further. It treats people like objects. There are a whole slew of problems just with the porn industry alone, never mind going into watching it.

 

Can some people succeed in and like doing porn? Sure. But that's the exception, not the rule.

Edited February 16, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler

[MedievalMystic]

And you wonder why we're "screaming" for respect?

 

Yes.

 

"Women" should be replaced with "patriarchal society".

 

The 'patriarchal society' isn't making each individual woman's choice for her and dictating how she acts, now is it?

 

I know quite a few couples who liked each other off the bat, got together (and in some of these cases were cheating) and are doing just fine still.

 

Some, yes. But not most.

 

This is a case where it seems neither person communicated how they felt. Fault does not lie on one person.

 

Looking at this from a guy's pov, if some chick comes home with me and sleeps with me the first night I meet her, in my mind I'm thinking it goes without saying that a night/weekend doesn't make a couple, or even the beginning of a romance.

 

 

Men are a little deeper than just sex hogs. They are capable of commitment and respect.

 

No! Really?

 

 

This is a human thing. Not a woman thing.

 

We were talking about women at the time.

 

If I let someone do something, it's not taking advantage of me.

 

So if people let other's use them as personal punching bags they shouldn't be complaining about the consequences and calling themselves victims... right?

 

 

The jerk who's taking advantage is at fault. Always.

 

The person that let's themselves, knowingly and willingly, be taken advantage of is at fault. Almost always.

 

 

I don't think you understand how abuse works. If it were easy to walk away from abuse, more women would do it. But it's not. That's why it's abuse. The abuser makes you feel as if it's your fault, as if you're nothing, and like they're a hero. Like they're doing some big favor by staying with you. A victim, yes victim, can't just walk away from that. It messes you up and you believe it. It's not a matter of being stupid. It's a matter of you're a victim and you're being abused.

 

I only wish I didn't understand. That being said, I can't even begin to imagine someone pulling that crap over on me. In my outdated and strange views, there are always choices, and people are free to make them. You either accept abuse, or you don't. Period. That's a conscious decision I made, based on my past history. I decided that I wasn't going to accept that mess in my life, let alone live that hell for years. Maybe people should simply choose to stop being victims. I did, I chose to never allow abuse in my world again, and it's a hell of a lot better than the alternative, that's for damn sure. Two choices. Do or die. Sink or swim. Rise or fall. Success or failure. Misery or happiness. Peace or pain. Stay on the path you're on, or get the hell off it. People do have the power within them to make better choices, to say NO for God's sake, so maybe that's something victims need to consider.

 

Good night.

Edited February 16, 2013 by MedievalMystic

[Obscure_Trash]

Yes.

 

"screaming for respect"

 

"victim is to blame"

 

"keep her legs shut"

 

"women are only for sex"

 

The 'patriarchal society' isn't making each individual woman's choice for her and dictating how she acts, now is it?

 

It dictates how people see her actions, which can fall into a few categories, none of them seen as positive. Top three that come to mind: , *, emotional.

 

Some, yes. But not most.

 

Point being people will work out if they'll work out. Time you've known each other doesn't have as much to do with it as respect and communication.

 

Looking at this from a guy's pov, if some chick comes home with me and sleeps with me the first night I meet her, in my mind I'm thinking it goes without saying that a night/weekend doesn't make a couple, or even the beginning of a romance.

 

This is not a guy's point of view. It's a horny person who doesn't want commitment. People need to communicate and let each other what they want, whether that's a quick roll in the hay or to get to know each other better. And they need to be honest about their feelings. This is not a "you should keep your legs together" thing. =\

 

No! Really? 

 

Yep.

 

We were talking about women at the time.

 

It still came off as attributing something that can happen to anyone as something that can happen mainly to women.

 

So if people let other's use them as personal punching bags they shouldn't be complaining about the consequences and calling themselves victims... right?

 

Considering your view of victim's, I don't think you're understanding "let". It means to actively allow. Not passively. It doesn't mean to be abused and think it's normal and not know how to get out of it.

 

The person that let's themselves, knowingly and willingly, be taken advantage of is at fault. Almost always.

 

Nope. Hence "taken advantage of".

 

I only wish I didn't understand. That being said, I can't even begin to imagine someone pulling that crap over on me. In my outdated and strange views, there are always choices, and people are free to make them. You either accept abuse, or you don't. Period. That's a conscious decision I made, based on my past history. I decided that I wasn't going to accept that mess in my life, let alone live that hell for years. Maybe people should simply choose to stop being victims. I did, I chose to never allow abuse in my world again, and it's a hell of a lot better than the alternative, that's for damn sure. Two choices. Do or die. Sink or swim. Rise or fall. Success or failure. Misery or happiness. Peace or pain. Stay on the path you're on, or get the hell off it. People do have the power within them to make better choices, to say NO for God's sake, so maybe that's something victims need to consider.

 

You understand living with an abuser. You don't understand what abuse does to people.

 

Yes, your situation is possible. Pretty sure it's not the norm. In a lot of instances, victims go from abuser to abuser or they become abusers themselves.

 

It's seriously not as simple as "they don't want to". They actually can't. You're telling them to swim when they don't know how to swim, they don't have a life vest, and perhaps that one oar one person is feebly holding out to them isn't anywhere close enough to be grabbed onto.

[Vhale]

victims go from abuser to abuser or they become abusers themselves.

 

This is what scares me. That I'll repeat the cycle. Or I'll see it in my nephews. One entire side of my family is completely twisted up and one of my siblings is probably a lost cause. The other was in great danger of losing her life when she left her abuser. We talk sometimes and I have told her, if this is genetic and you see me acting like this, shoot me now! She laughs. And honestly, she DOES act a lot like our mother at times. She'd stop speaking to me if I said that to her face though.

 

It's a nasty, vicious cycle that is very hard to break on every level, for some more than others. And yes, many break before they can get out. I don't think people appreciate how this thing repeats through generations. And I do often wonder if it can be influenced genetically a la achoholism. We barely understand what PTSD does to people as it is.

[MedievalMystic]

You don't understand what abuse does to people.

 

Where do you get off making assumptions like that? You have no damn idea what kinds of hells I've been through in this life, what living the life I lived growing up did to me. You can't even begin to imagine. I was a freaking victim as a kid, and you want to sit there and tell me I don't know what the hell abuse does? I know EVERYTHING it does. I'm a freaking expert.

 

The difference between me and other people and how they see things is that I CHOSE not to be a victim as an adult, I CHOOSE not to allow people to treat me like some kind of doormat because I KNOW, and always have, that that kind of behavior is dead wrong, I simply refused to accept, or believe the ugliness my mom was spewing back in the day, and the only difference between myself and others is that they didn't fight back against wrong doing. I'm living proof that choices are there to be made, and people can, and should, start making better ones in these situations. I damn sure did. It can be done, in spite of everything abuse does to someone. And I'd know.

[KageSora]

Looking at this from a guy's pov, if some chick comes home with me and sleeps with me the first night I meet her, in my mind I'm thinking it goes without saying that a night/weekend doesn't make a couple, or even the beginning of a romance.

 

 

Men are a little deeper than just sex hogs. They are capable of commitment and respect.

 

No!  Really? 

Wow, that's a stellar job right there of showing how not all men think of sex as just a quick casual thing!

 

Sarcasm aside, it looks like you're just reinforcing the idea that men just view any sex that doesn't come after a very long relationship as casual sex and women view any sex as something attached to romance.

 

Which is just bull. There are men out there who think that sex is tied with romance, and women who would assume a guy who just wants a night after a few beers is just after a quick screw.

 

As Socky said, that's not a man's PoV--that's the PoV of a horny person who just wants to .

 

Telling abuse victims that because you did it, they should just "chose not to be abused" is about as effective as telling somebody with depression to "just stop being sad".

 

It is absolute BS that in 99% of the cases doesn't help and in fact can make things worse by reinforcing the idea that the person you telling it to is a worthless pile of crap because they can't.

 

Do you know how hard I've tried to escape depression? To stop seeing myself as worthless? Over a decade of therapy, almost half my life, and on and off medication? And I'm still horribly, horribly broken and struggling to not lose all hope? There isn't a damn switch in my brain I can flip to suddenly stop being depressed.

 

Abuse is, in most cases, the same damn thing. It's not a magical switch most people can just flip. They don't wake up each morning and go "Hm, I think I'll be abused today! I think I'll totally let my abusive SO treat me like trash!" They just don't. And they cannot just wake up and go "Hey, I think I'll kick his/her ass on the street because I'm so not putting up with that anymore!"

 

Yes, some people ARE capable of snapping out of it and changing things in a short period of time. But that is not the norm.

 

If it was, there wouldn't need to be shelters for battered women because they'd all just give their abusers the middle finger and move on with their lives. There wouldn't need to be legal protection for victims of abuse, because they'd all just not put up with that.

 

Hell, if it was that easy, I think cases of abuse would be a ton lower because there wouldn't be anywhere near the success rate abusers actually have with their victims since most victims would just stop putting up with it and move on.

 

It worked for you, lovely. But not everybody is you, and most of us cannot just flip a magical switch in our brains to change what has been beaten into us--sometimes physically--to just view life in a completely different way.

 

And to keep saying what you do, how we just need to STOP TAKING IT implies that we're lesser, that we're worthless and pathetic for "choosing" to take it. And that is the victim-blaming culture at work, controlling YOUR thoughts and actions.

 

And, it's incredibly offensive to those of us who don't have that magical little switch you seem to have in your brain.

 

I know EVERYTHING it does. I'm a freaking expert.

 

No, you aren't. You don't know everything it does. You know everything it did to you. Hey, newsflash! NOT EVERYBODY IS YOU. Not all of us react to abuse the same way. People react to abuse in different ways. You're an expert on YOU.

 

You are not a damn expert on what abuse does to everybody else--you are not an expert on what I went through did to me. You are not an expert on what catstaff went through did to them. You are not an expert. You just know how you reacted.

Edited February 16, 2013 by KageSora

[Obscure_Trash]

Where do you get off making assumptions like that? You have no damn idea what kinds of hells I've been through in this life, what living the life I lived growing up did to me. You can't even begin to imagine. I was a freaking victim as a kid, and you want to sit there and tell me I don't know what the hell abuse does? I know EVERYTHING it does. I'm a freaking expert.

 

The difference between me and other people and how they see things is that I CHOSE not to be a victim as an adult, I CHOOSE not to allow people to treat me like some kind of doormat because I KNOW, and always have, that that kind of behavior is dead wrong, I simply refused to accept, or believe the ugliness my mom was spewing back in the day, and the only difference between myself and others is that they didn't fight back against wrong doing. I'm living proof that choices are there to be made, and people can, and should, start making better ones in these situations. I damn sure did. It can be done, in spite of everything abuse does to someone. And I'd know.

I am not discounting (not meaning to come off as it either) your experiences, Mystic. But you are ignoring what abuse does to most people by saying they should just choose not to be a victim. There have been people who came in here and posted their experiences with abuse and how they were able to get away is not the same as you. If it was that simple, there'd be a lot less cases of abuse (or at least long-term abuse). But it's not. It's great that you did it, but most victims can't and that isn't their fault. When one person breaks the rule that makes them the exception - not the new rule. It's the fault of the abuser who has twisted them and made them unable to walk away. It's not that they don't want to. They're hurting. They can't. Even if they do desperately want to.

 

This is what scares me. That I'll repeat the cycle. Or I'll see it in my nephews. One entire side of my family is completely twisted up and one of my siblings is probably a lost cause. The other was in great danger of losing her life when she left her abuser. We talk sometimes and I have told her, if this is genetic and you see me acting like this, shoot me now! She laughs. And honestly, she DOES act a lot like our mother at times. She'd stop speaking to me if I said that to her face though.

 

It's a nasty, vicious cycle that is very hard to break on every level, for some more than others. And yes, many break before they can get out. I don't think people appreciate how this thing repeats through generations. And I do often wonder if it can be influenced genetically a la achoholism. We barely understand what PTSD does to people as it is.

 

I was actually thinking about this when I was typing. I do wonder if it's all nurture or if there is some nature involved or what. Is there a point where nurture is so ingrained where it is nature?

 

~

 

And I think everyone in this thread needs a *hug*. <3

[Vhale]

Hugs are good. And I think what we are doing here, communicating, helps. At least I'd like to think so. So many countries after all, our voices these days are on an international scale more than we understood we ever could be.

 

I think people are becoming more aware that trauma affects us in real applicable ways. Changes in brain chemistry etc. I've seen a few discussions about the Middle East etc. There have been SO many violent wars in the last few decades, that the effects of such have deeply affected the people there.

 

A friend of mine adopted a boy from Russia. The trauma of moving cultures affected him so badly, his brain literally shut down certain areas. There was a medical term that I forget now, but it affected his ability to interact with others. It took them a long while to help him. And that was a fairly normal child, no abuse that they know of.

 

But, here's one such article on PTSD for those that would like to read it: California's Refugees

[rogue-fox]

I dont discriminate against anything really. I could probably say something like men are better than women or some crap, and it probably is true in certain scenarios, but it doesn't mean women cannot be better than a man in a scenario tharpt is suited for a man.Point is , Im not a sexist, plain and simple.

[The Evil Doer]

It is a sexist thing. The sexism is that we make excuses for the predatory man and blame the victim woman.

 

Women are predators as well, abuse is not exclusive to males (hence its not a sexism issue at all !!!!!), Whichever gender the predator is, abusee is partially at fault as well coz one can not exist without the other, predator can not and I say this again CAN NOT manipulate or psychologically abuse a person that has a strong persona, only the weak one can be taken advantage of and this phenomena has been going on throughout our entire history (survival of the fittest, slavery, bullying, cults, pick whatever)...

 

In order for the phenomena to exist there must be an abuser and an abusee, without the abusee, abuser has no power, magically making all the people (of both genders) with abusive tendancies go poof into thin air will still not change the fact that the weak individuals within our society still have that low self esteem, and still feel unworthy, and you can ignore that part all you want but that is a part of the problem as well....

 

Nobody is excusing the lowlife behavior of predators !!!! However, this sentence is as real as it gets "fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me"...

Whoever you are, a girl or a guy, making mistakes is perfectly cool but if you learn nothing from those mistakes and instead repeat the same pattern then your worst enemy is not the potential abuser but you yourself

Edited February 16, 2013 by The Evil Doer