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Sexism

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Oh, for pity's sake, Sock. Not all men are rapists. Ben when you are talking situtions such as comments being passed on someone scantily dressed then, yes, there is some culpability there.

 

Society is what it is. And, no, I'm not talking about going a step too far and grabbing someone or taking illegal actions. But if you are going to dress in a mannger that shows more of your body than it hides then people with no sexual interest in you whatsoever are going to comment.

 

It's not sexist to look in slight disgust at someone showing that much flesh. And no one wears that sort of get-up to 'feel good about themselves' unless deep down what's making them feel good is the very attention from other's they are censorkip.gif*ing about.

You're right! Not all men are rapists. Exactly my point, lol. (*shakes fist at internet and tone*) Fuzzy nailed it.

 

I honestly do not know one woman who shows skin to get sexual comments. They do it because it makes them feel good. They like the way they look. They are comfortable like that. They just feel like wearing that for the day. It's giving them a confidence boost. They have nothing else to wear. And sure, some may wear the clothes for the compliments they receive.

 

Sure, people are going to look. However, leering, lewd comments, crude comments, unwelcome advances, and rude snarky comments, are just that. Rude. Human beings are quite capable of showing restraint. A woman showing skin is not an open invitation for harassment or abuse.

 

If you don't like it, cool. You don't have to! You don't have to wear it, you don't have to like the style. But there's no reason you can't be polite. There is a thing called a filter in your mind that should let you know 'that's not a nice thing to say!' and you can think twice before huffing and walking away muttering about hussies or something.

 

A person's clothes really tells you next to nothing about them. They could be sexual, asexual, hypersexual, straight, bi, lesbian, doing laundry, meeting with friends, meeting with a SO, going out to dinner, going clubbing, like the style, like the style better than anything else they can find, be comfortable, want to feel good about how they look and they do so by dressing up in a fashion they like, a doctor, a cashier, a secretary, a whatever.

 

If I don't have any interest in them...why do I have interest in making a comment?

 

So they're showing some skin? Internally roll your eyes if you want and go about your day. The idea that women who wear less clothes deserve whatever they get - yeah, that has everything to do with sexism. People are responsible for their actions (including what they say) and it's about time we started holding them accountable.

 

~

 

About the mechanics thing - you don't even have to have a guy physically with you to get better service. My mom had to call my dad once. He'd been giving us all the most expensive tire prices for my car. She put him on the phone and the guy immediately lowered the price by $150 and his tone was more respectful than condescending. =\

 

Tis ridiculous. X_X

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You're right! Not all men are rapists. Exactly my point, lol. (*shakes fist at internet and tone*) Fuzzy nailed it.

 

I got the sarcasm. I just didn't get the reason for it.

 

 

Human beings are quite capable of showing restraint. A woman showing skin is not an open invitation for harassment or abuse.

 

You're right. But it is an open invite for contempt and disgust. And I'm not talking about women that dress sexy, I'm talking about women who just have it all hanging out and there's a lot of that out there. I mean, really, should I know that the chick in front of me this morning at the grocery store, for example, the one looking like she was wearing low rider PJ's, powdered her arse after her shower? Uh...no. That's nothing I wanted to know. I have personally never made any rude comment to anyone. But I know what I'm thinking, and I know what my impression is. And I fully believe that the girl this morning knew her butt was half out of those PJ's she was wearing, and didn't care, and liked it like that. Which is great. But while I'm not making rude comments, I am being treated, if that's what you can call it, at least once a day, to a display of personal body parts up close and personal, and for some weird reason nobody is talking about how rude that is, any more than people talk about how rude it is to scream and have shouting matches on their cell phones in public. I don't give a damn if your man IS cheating on you . I don't want or need to hear it, but I'm subject to just about everyone's personal reality show on a daily basis, but of course nobody considers that invading someone else's space. It never occurs to them, the one's cussing and yelling into their phones, that maybe nobody wants to hear their personal crap. Oh yeah, I see a whole lot of 'rude' in this world myself, I just see it from a different angle than some. And it's not just women. Oh no. Not at all. If one more guy bends down and treats me to a view of his disgusting, hairy arse maybe he deserves a little 'rude' from me. That's just how I see it. *shrug*

 

A person's clothes really tells you next to nothing about them.

 

You'll have to forgive me. I beg to differ. Imho, clothes scream who you are. Or at least, who you are that day. lol

Edited by MedievalMystic

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I definitely don't think people should be commenting negatively, but I don't think women should be surprised if they do receive negative comments.

 

I get negative comments when I'm wearing a sweater or a t-shirt just because I'm small and my breasts are large. That's more infuriating than comments based on what I wear, because there is absolutely nothing I can do about my breasts. I can't just pop them off and put on a smaller pair.

 

~

 

Me and my mom went to a dealership and she bought a car. My mom is a very stubborn, pushy person and isn't satisfied until she gets her way. I went out to lunch with her the other day and she sent her fries back because her fries were hot, but not hot enough for her liking. rolleyes.gif

 

We went car shopping together and no matter what she did, the salesman would NOT budge on the price. The best she could do was get a full tank of gas(apparently the car only came with a half tank of gas), and he was unbelievably stubborn even about that. So basically she got about $20 off a $24,000 car.

 

My husband and his dad went vehicle shopping. My husband is a very quiet guy, very stubborn, but he's not pushy like my mom is and if he can't get his way he's not that bothered. He got $4000 off his dad's SUV. My mom was trying much, much harder than my husband to get a better deal. He basically just kept saying "Nope, that's too expensive." and the salesman kept going lower until he got to $4000. I'm positive it's just because he's a man, and I'm betting his beard helped in some way too.

 

Recently we bought a new truck for ourselves and it was amazing to see the prices of vehicles drop dramatically right before my eyes. Salesmen were taking off hundreds and then thousands of dollars off like it wasn't a big deal, while it took ages for my mom to get just a full tank of gas. It was unbelievable.

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Sometimes it's the salesman, though it's definitely true not always. my mom LOVES to haggle and is pretty good at getting prices down. Last time I went in, I noticed the guy really tried to guilt trip me about giving me accurate prices for the cars. Complaining his boss would get onto him. Pfft.

 

Personally, I thought the slip dress fad was incredibly tacky. But I can't recall posting any mean comments about it.

Edited by Vhale

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...That's not the boobs-n-butt pose people object to (at least not most of us, from what I gather--it's certainly not the boobs-n-butt pose I object to).

 

The boobs-n-butt pose I object to has both butt cheeks and both breasts showing at once--or at least most of both breasts and butt cheeks even if it's not 100% both of them (but beyond what's normally possible). In other words, when I say "boobs-n-butt pose", I refer to the poses that DO require a rubber spine/being a contortionist to perform. Not the "I can turn my spine a bit to show off reasonable amounts of both my boobs and my butt"

 

I think it's stupid to have unneeded butt and crotch shots of guys, too, honestly. So I'm not objecting ONLY to the unnecessary sexualization of women. Sexy can be done without sexualization.

 

I just kinda hate how we need sexualizing to sell things these days. It pisses me off. THAT is the biggest thing I object to. It's just a little more problematic for women than it is for men, since it fuels the idea that women = toys for men. But it's not cool for men, either, and it's a problem when they're oversexualized, too.

Yeah, that's ridiculous. I see a fair chunk of people taking completely doable pictures and going "oh how impossible lol" though so it's made me rage whenever I hear people talking about how impossible they are.

 

I don't mind sexualization - in places where it's appropriate. Such as risque works. But how widespread it is IS stupid. Granted, I'm for a more open attitude towards sex in general, so.

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I don't really LIKE sexualization even in works where it would be considered more appropriate--like I said, you can have sexy without reducing a person to a sex object. But porn and the like does tend to do that, and in that context at least it tends to do it to both men and women.

 

But there's absolutely no need for a hyper-sexualized ad to sell cars or something. It's ridiculous. D:

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But it is an open invite for contempt and disgust.

 

An open invitation for contempt and disgust would be if you had a partner who was into that kind of stuff asking you to do it. Innocuously walking down the street invites no such thing - even if you're completely nude...or in lingerie!

 

If one more guy bends down and treats me to a view of his disgusting, hairy arse maybe he deserves a little 'rude' from me. That's just how I see it. *shrug*

 

These are very different situations. Mocking or harassing someone who's standing near you and just happens to be wearing something you don't like is just plain rude. Asking someone to pull up their pants after they stick their butt in your face is reasonable. (Although telling him off is not so reasonable unless you've asked him at least once already.)

 

You'll have to forgive me. I beg to differ. Imho, clothes scream who you are. Or at least, who you are that day. lol

 

I forgive you if you'll forgive me for begging to differ with your begging to differ. ;3

 

Our judgements based on clothing are snap judgements. Putting people into nice, neat boxes of ticky-tacky, if you will. There are a billion ways that person could break that stereotype.

 

I definitely don't think people should be commenting negatively, but I don't think women should be surprised if they do receive negative comments.

 

In this society? I hardly doubt they're surprised.

 

Do I think that society trains us to judge others like that? Not at all.

Do I think that others aren't going to think that's an okay thing to do? Not at all.

Does that make it right? You guessed it - not at all.

 

~

 

The problem with sexualization isn't how you look at sex. It's that it teaches us very bad things, beliefs, and habits, such as, like Kage pointed out, viewing women as objects rather than people.

 

I saw some comparison picture the other day for swimsuit ads. Women's swimsuits were all pictures of thin, white women modeling them. More body than swimsuit. Men's ads were all nice, clear shots of people-less swim trunks (with a sparse few models among them). I think that says a lot about our culture. Women can't buy something without thinking about whether or not they'll look sexy in it - what the swimsuit looks like isn't even the issue. It's how we look. Men are able to buy based on what is being sold, though. /generalization based on that comparison

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It's that it teaches us very bad things, beliefs, and habits, such as, like Kage pointed out, viewing women as objects rather than people.

 

So it's wrong for a man to pursue for sex, but what about the girl better known for the things she does on the mattress? Whoa!

Edited by Alpha1

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So it's wrong for a man to pursue for sex, but what about the girl better known for the things she does on the mattress? Whoa!

No, it's not wrong for a man to pursue sex--and neither is it wrong for a woman (though society tells us men who sleep with lots of girls are awesome and girls who sleep with lots of men are horrible).

 

What is wrong is for a man to pursue sex by being an ass. Making lewd, crude comments and leering like a desperate pervert is not an appropriate way to pursue sex.

 

Women are not objects to fulfill the fantasies of men and to have sex with them whenever and however they want.

 

Women are people just like men. Women have hopes and dreams and fears and desires and loves and hates and are human.

 

What's wrong is for a man to treat women like his personal sex toys, and they should just have sex with him because he wants sex with them.

 

It's just as wrong for women to treat men like nothing more than sex objects. But you'll see it happens a LOT more with men treating women as nothing more than glorified sex toys than it does the other way around.

 

It's never okay, though, no matter who is doing that or who they're doing it to.

 

THAT is what the problem is. Not men pursuing sex. Men treating women like they exist only to have sex with them. Or, I suppose, whatever else the man wants them to do.

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Unless a man is a rapist, which we've established that all men certainly are not, WOMEN decide if men have sex. And men have been having a whole lot of really easy sex for a long, long time. If women don't get the respect they're constantly screaming about, maybe more of them should keep their legs shut for just a leetle while longer than a day or week or month. Women make it real easy for guys to be cads. Do I think it's wrong for women to have lovers? No. I've had a few of my own over the years. But I've never slept with any man I didn't know really, really well. I've never had a one night stand in my life for damn good reason.

 

I remember a few years ago a woman I worked with, about 23 years old, came to work one day and was just sobbing in the back room. In a nutshell, she met a guy at a club the weekend before, and spent the entire weekend at his house. She slept with him the night she met him. Weekend was over, dude never calls, blows her off, etc, etc...and I just remember how confused this chick was as to why he was suddenly acting that way. She thought they had a 'good thing' going. No, what they had was simply a weekend of casual sex...which she willingly provided and which she confused for something deeper. Did she honestly expect romance after that weekend? Love? Respect? Yeah, sure. Why should that guy bother with all that now? He got what he wanted with the snap of a finger. Maybe in a dream world women can come off easy and demand respect, but not in this one. It's just my opinion that women need to wise up. Maybe then you wouldn't see so many women with 2-3 kids by different men, none of who pay child support. Sure, these men are losers for not paying support and taking responsibility. But had the women waited to get to know them, waited to sleep with them, maybe they would have figured the guys character out before a kid was involved and avoided the situation. Imho, women dig some of their own holes, and in my opinion, they can't have it both ways. Sorry, no offense meant. (sorry Sock)

 

Just my own personal view. I tend to be a cynical old fart.

Edited by MedievalMystic

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Unless a man is a rapist, which we've established that all men certainly are not, WOMEN decide if men have sex. And men have been having a whole lot of really easy sex for a long, long time. If women don't get the respect they're constantly screaming about, maybe more of them should keep their legs shut for just a leetle while longer than a day or week or month. Women make it real easy for guys to be cads. Do I think it's wrong for women to have lovers? No. I've had a few of my own over the years. But I've never slept with any man I didn't know really, really well. I've never had a one night stand in my life for damn good reason.

I think it's not about sex - it's about double standards. If you take a man and a woman, with the exact same number of partners, getting with those partners in the same way and having sex in the same situations, the men will always be a "stud" while the women is going to be a "*censorkip.gif". That's a problem. It's not who has sex with whom, why or when. The problem is that women's "innocence" is still highly valued.

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No, it's not wrong for a man to pursue sex--and neither is it wrong for a woman (though society tells us men who sleep with lots of girls are awesome and girls who sleep with lots of men are horrible).

 

Creep shaming is similar to censorkip.gif shaming. It could be lookism or being quiet or socially awkward.

 

When men say that s word, they are more detached and judgmental e.g. she’s a censorkip.gif because she won’t have sex with me or she’s a censorkip.gif because she has problems and sleeps with many people who also likely have problems. When women say it, many times it could be jealousy/somehow it hurt her.

 

What is wrong is for a man to pursue sex by being an ass. Making lewd, crude comments and leering like a desperate pervert is not an appropriate way to pursue sex.

 

Yes, I agree. They do dumb pickups that women don’t like, but eventually one might say yes, so it continues.

 

Did the sexualized ads really played a big part on men being disrespectful, though? It seems a whole lot like the complaint that Twilight is causing girls to accept bad relationships with men or video games are a big reason for massacres. There’s also the other side where women find it empowering and will want to try to gain parity by sexualizing men more.

 

What I was referring to in the above post was that many women complain that men don’t want relationships and only want the sex, but at the same time argue that it’s bad to shame women who have had several partners.

 

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Mystic does have a point, though.

 

Please note I have argued, every step of the way here, against men being impolite censorkip.gif***s. There's no excuse to be impolite to anyone, regardless of sex.

 

There's nothing wrong with casual sex. But both people need to understand that that's what it is. If you're not sure about the status of a relationship - don't jump into bed. Women need to understand the men here just as uch as the men need to understand the women. The root of the problem is that the two sides aren't communicating, more than simply saying there's a blanket issue with the way men look at women.

 

Sex means different things to different people (and, broadly, there are seperations along gender lines). The argument I've seen a lot of people on here making seems to boil down to the idea that men need to innately understand and accomodate the female point of view on it. Fine. But how is it any less sexist if there is no reciprocation here? It would be great for men to understand what women want out of sex... but I do think the women need to take a moment to think what the male point of view is. Please note here I'm not saying parrot back to me your stereotypes of what you *think* the 'patriarchal society' *says* men want, but actually trying to understand men as people rather than the enemy. That's what you want for yourselves, isn't it? To be understood as people and not some nebulous group? That needs to go both ways.

 

So, yes, while there is nothing wrong with casual sex it's not the sort of thing either sex should be doing without both parties being clear that that's what it is. And by clear I mean explicitly said so. Because if he's only actually interested in sex, and *she* thinks there's a relationship coming out of it... then she *is* going to get hurt if she sleeps with the man. That's not just the man's fault - that's a lack of communication. Maybe he wouldn't have slept with her if he knew she was after a relationship? We can't know, because it's obvious in hind-sight that wasn't his understanding.

 

We shouldn't comdemn anyone, male or female, for wanting and enjoying sex. That *includes* not ranting at men for having one night stands with women who wanted more.

 

No part of this is one sided. Women are not all opressed angels, and men are not all ignorant rapists. Or, from the other point of view, women are not all money grabbing female dogs and men are not all deprived and exploited for their money. There are good and bad people on both sides. And refusing to aknowledge that doesn't help anyone.

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Yes. Tiki, you say what I mean so much better than I do. lol

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If women don't get the respect they're constantly screaming about, maybe more of them should keep their legs shut for just a leetle while longer than a day or week or month.

 

Um, excuuuse me. Stop shaming women for having a sex life you personally disapprove of. How many people I have sex with or how soon after meeting them I do it does not determine whether or not I deserve respect. If I'm not respected by someone because they disapprove of my sex life, or because they think it's okay to lie and manipulate and blow me off because "durr hurr she's just a censorkip.gif," then THEY are the one at fault, THEY are the one who is rude and a jerk. NOT me.

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You missed my point by 100 miles.

 

 

 

If I'm not respected by someone because they disapprove of my sex life, or because they think it's okay to lie and manipulate and blow me off because "durr hurr she's just a ," then THEY are the one at fault, THEY are the one who is rude and a jerk. NOT me.

 

The way I see it, if I sleep with some guy the first night/week we meet, get blown off, and am stupid enough to believe every empty word some stranger throws at me like it's in stone in that short a time, and don't seem to get the respect I feel I deserve, yeah, maybe I'd think that way, too, if it happened a time or two. If I found myself dealing with a lack of respect and found myself being blown off over and over again, however, and this seemed to somehow, for some reason, be the norm, I wouldn't come to the conclusion that the guys are jerks right off the bat. I'd look at myself and conclude that obviously what I'm doing isn't working, so maybe doing something different might be a real good idea to get the outcome I'm looking for in my personal life. In other words, just because I've been acting like a fool doesn't make a dude that doesn't respect, but will most definitely take, what I so freely give an ass, it makes me one. The guy is just an opportunist. Sure, there are a lot of jerks. No doubt about it. But if some chick gets played by one of them, then as far as I'm concerned it very well could be because she wasn't smart about the whole thing to begin with. You believe everything a guy tells you right off the bat? You believe all those pretty words about 'love' within a week...from a virtual stranger? Who's the fool? The guy? No, he won. And the chick let him.

Edited by MedievalMystic

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So...what? She probably deserves to have some self-reflection time to figure everything out, especially her expectations of the whole deal and he should probably learn to be more communicative and considerate of his partners. Everyone has dumb moments, blind spots, mistakes they wish they could take back. That's no reason to treat them poorly or to generalize their behaviour to their entire gender. That dude who 'won' is about as representative of men as a whole as my dog is.

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Okay, got it.

 

Sure, there are a lot of jerks. No doubt about it. But if some chick gets played by one of them, then as far as I'm concerned it very well could be because she wasn't smart about the whole thing to begin with. You believe everything a guy tells you right off the bat? You believe all those pretty words about 'love' within a week...from a virtual stranger? Who's the fool? The guy? No, he won. And the chick let him.

 

In more concise words, men who prey on women are opportunists and/or jerks, but if a woman falls prey to one of them, she's a stupid fool.

 

For the record, I agree with Tikindi's post, that people need to know what something is and what something isn't. But this kind of wording - "she wasn't smart about it," "who's the fool," etc. - is VERY insulting and reeks of victim-blaming.

 

See, many of these "fools" who "aren't smart about the whole thing" are women who have been abused, told they're worthless, or otherwise have low self-esteem and thus WANT to believe it when they're told "I love you, you're beautiful and smart" etc. Predatory men pick up on this and take advantage of them. Predatory men are unconcerned about how it hurts the woman. PREDATORY MEN, NOT THEIR VICTIMS, are the ones at fault, for not giving women the respect they deserve.

 

So maybe instead of going on and on about how foolish some women are and blaming them for being taken advantage of, we should be tackling the problem of PREDATORY MEN.

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Aljazeera hosted several articles yesterday, in respect of One Billion Rising

 

One Billion is the estimated number of women who have been assaulted in the world today.

 

In Britian, 1 out of 3 video

 

Courtney E Martin's Article

 

80% of Attackers are Known to the Woman attacked. Stranger Danger is comparitively rare.

 

800 Women die daily in pregnancy or Childbirth

 

Why is it "Feminism" to decry rape?

 

And on a lighter note, this is the Escher Girls blog. It's a blog devoted to pointing out (and making fun of) portrayals of women in comics and art

Escher Girls

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Okay, got it.

 

Sure, there are a lot of jerks. No doubt about it. But if some chick gets played by one of them, then as far as I'm concerned it very well could be because she wasn't smart about the whole thing to begin with. You believe everything a guy tells you right off the bat? You believe all those pretty words about 'love' within a week...from a virtual stranger? Who's the fool? The guy? No, he won. And the chick let him.

 

In more concise words, men who prey on women are opportunists and/or jerks, but if a woman falls prey to one of them, she's a stupid fool.

 

For the record, I agree with Tikindi's post, that people need to know what something is and what something isn't. But this kind of wording - "she wasn't smart about it," "who's the fool," etc. - is VERY insulting and reeks of victim-blaming.

 

See, many of these "fools" who "aren't smart about the whole thing" are women who have been abused, told they're worthless, or otherwise have low self-esteem and thus WANT to believe it when they're told "I love you, you're beautiful and smart" etc. Predatory men pick up on this and take advantage of them. Predatory men are unconcerned about how it hurts the woman. PREDATORY MEN, NOT THEIR VICTIMS, are the ones at fault, for not giving women the respect they deserve.

 

So maybe instead of going on and on about how foolish some women are and blaming them for being taken advantage of, we should be tackling the problem of PREDATORY MEN.

Gotta agree with this ^

 

I loathe the concept that women who have lots of sex are '****s' but men who do so are 'studs' - it's so incredibly (and obviously) biased. I was amused by a post by a (male) friend of mine on facebook on the topic the other day:

"If women were labelled "heroes" instead of "****s" for sleeping around too much, us guys would be having a lot more sex.

 

Someone ballsed up here... "

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In more concise words, men who prey on women are opportunists and/or jerks, but if a woman falls prey to one of them, she's a stupid fool.

 

For the record, I agree with Tikindi's post, that people need to know what something is and what something isn't. But this kind of wording - "she wasn't smart about it," "who's the fool," etc. - is VERY insulting and reeks of victim-blaming.

 

See, many of these "fools" who "aren't smart about the whole thing" are women who have been abused, told they're worthless, or otherwise have low self-esteem and thus WANT to believe it when they're told "I love you, you're beautiful and smart" etc. Predatory men pick up on this and take advantage of them. Predatory men are unconcerned about how it hurts the woman. PREDATORY MEN, NOT THEIR VICTIMS, are the ones at fault, for not giving women the respect they deserve.

 

So maybe instead of going on and on about how foolish some women are and blaming them for being taken advantage of, we should be tackling the problem of PREDATORY MEN.

 

 

A. Only if she falls prey over and over and over again. Yes.

 

B. I didn't intend it that way. That's just how I talk all the time. I realize I irritate people sometimes. I've learned to accept it, unfortunate as it is.

 

C. About the victim thing. Yeah, there have been women who are abused and told they're worthless. As a matter of fact, I've seen good friends of mine with guys who do just that. And they go back again, and again, and again. I've heard my own friends make up the silliest excuses for the SOB and there they stay. And those women, imo, are, indeed, stupid as hell and I don't want to hear the word 'victim' coming out of their mouths. To me, victims are victim of circumstances beyond their control...they're not victims if they choose to stay with an abuser. They didn't choose to be abused...until they stayed instead of walking away. You stay with an abuser because you 'love' him, or whatever, you get what you get. What's love got to do with it? If you're with an abuser who's beating the crap out of you, and you really are trying to leave and he's stalking you, making threats, and you live in fear...shoot him the next time he shows up. The knee will do. And of course predators take advantage. They're predators. Again, both sides should be a tad more cautious.

 

And if someone takes advantage of you, who's to blame? The person that took advantage, or the person that let them? People can't take advantage, manipulate you, or guilt you into anything unless you allow it to happen. That's just my take on it. And I'm the type that the more a guy tells me how wonderful, beautiful, exciting, I am, and how he's 'NEVER' felt this way, and blah, blah, the more uncomfortable and suspicious I get...my red flags start flying, especially if he's talking that way very early on.

Edited by MedievalMystic

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A.  Only if she falls prey over and over and over again.  Yes. 

 

B. I didn't intend it that way.  That's just how I talk all the time.  I realize I irritate people sometimes.  I've learned to accept it, unfortunate as it is. 

 

C.  About the victim thing.  Yeah, there have been women who are abused and told they're worthless.  As a matter of fact, I've seen good friends of mine with guys who do just that.  And they go back again, and again, and again.  I've heard my own friends make up the silliest excuses for the SOB and there they stay.  And those women, imo, are, indeed, stupid as hell and I don't want to hear the word 'victim' coming out of their mouths.  To me, victims are victim of circumstances beyond their control...they're not victims if they choose to stay with an abuser.  They didn't choose to be abused...until they stayed instead of walking away.  You stay with an abuser because you 'love' him, or whatever, you get what you get.  What's love got to do with it?  If you're with an abuser who's beating the crap out of you, and you really are trying to leave and he's stalking you, making threats, and you live in fear...shoot him the next time he shows up.  The knee will do.  And of course predators take advantage.  They're predators.  Again, both sides should be a tad more cautious. 

 

And if someone takes advantage of you, who's to blame?  The person that took advantage, or the person that let them?  People can't take advantage, manipulate you, or guilt you into anything unless you allow it to happen.  That's just my take on it.    And I'm the type that the more a guy tells me how wonderful, beautiful, exciting, I am, and how he's 'NEVER' felt this way, and blah, blah, the more uncomfortable and suspicious I get...my red flags start flying, especially if he's talking that way very early on.

It's not that simple all the time. I went through something similar myself, actually. I pulled myself out by my bootstraps, but it took a slagton of self convincing to do it. It takes an incredibly strong person to break out of the cycle, and even then I had to rely heavily on my friends to help me out of it. I couldn't do it alone. And the same goes for anyone else in a relationship like that; it's difficult to leave if that abuser is the only one who shows (even if in pretend) he cares about you.

 

And you know what, I'm not weak/stupid because it happened to me. It's in the past now and I know how to avoid it in the future. But at that time that guy was pretending he might commit suicide if I stopped talking to him. If it's weak to want to keep someone alive, or at least believe you are, then call me weak. I don't care. I know I'm not to blame.

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So maybe instead of going on and on about how foolish some women are and blaming them for being taken advantage of, we should be tackling the problem of PREDATORY MEN.

There are two sides to every coin....

 

1. If the girl is smart enough, confident enough predatory men will have nothing on her so the facts remain the same - vultures/predators are jerks/asses who take advantage of the weaker ones, weaker ones who fall for it are just that weaker ones or in most cases simply put dumb/fragile individuals, existance of both parties is the problem and not just one of them...

 

2. This is not a sexist thing, its about nature of animals/humans, just like sharks sensing the blood in the water vultures will take advantage of the weaker ones for their own gain, its not a men thing, both genders do it, it has to do with personality of the said human, girls take advantage of guys (or even weaker girls for that matter) all the time, guys take advantage of girls (or weaker guys as well) all the time... It has nothing to do with sexism but everything to do with opportunism mixed with egoism and our wonderful human nature dry.gif

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A.  Only if she falls prey over and over and over again.  Yes. 

 

B. I didn't intend it that way.  That's just how I talk all the time.  I realize I irritate people sometimes.  I've learned to accept it, unfortunate as it is. 

 

C.  About the victim thing.  Yeah, there have been women who are abused and told they're worthless.  As a matter of fact, I've seen good friends of mine with guys who do just that.  And they go back again, and again, and again.  I've heard my own friends make up the silliest excuses for the SOB and there they stay.  And those women, imo, are, indeed, stupid as hell and I don't want to hear the word 'victim' coming out of their mouths.  To me, victims are victim of circumstances beyond their control...they're not victims if they choose to stay with an abuser.  You stay with an abuser because you 'love' him, you get what you get.  If you're with an abuser who's beating the crap out of you, and you really are trying to leave and he's stalking you, making threats, and you live in fear...shoot him the next time he shows up.  The knee will do.  And of course predators take advantage.  They're predators.  Again, both sides should be a tad more cautious. 

 

And if someone takes advantage of you, who's to blame?  The person that took advantage, or the person that let them?  People can't take advantage, manipulate you, or guilt you into anything unless you allow it to happen.  That's just my take on it.

So instead of helping your "close friends" who have probably been manipulated, without their knowledge, by their abuser into staying with them, you're gonna sit here and call them stupid on the Internet.

 

Okay.

 

Listen to this and listen to it good. I dated a sociopath (as in, no empathy for humanity) for several months. A sociopath who viewed me as a toy and an experiment, who subtley manipulated me and toyed with me, both to get me to do what he wanted and just to see what would happen. I can't go into the full extent of the numerous things he tried, nearly succeeded, and fully succeeded in making me do. He played with my fears and anxieties in the worst possible way and in the end I went to a counselor, not because I wanted help escaping, but because I wanted help trusting him further, because he convinced me I was to blame for my anxiety, for not trusting him, and that I was losing my mind. This was in a matter of months. Imagine what someone can do in years!

 

And sending me to a counselor was his ultimate mistake. I eventually realized, with the counselor's help, that things were getting more and more toxic and left him. But it wasn't until I was out of the relationship for several weeks that I realized how much he'd twisted my mind. I probably still haven't realized the full extent of it, and it's been over a year since I left. He's married now, and he's probably using what he learned from his experience from me to do even worse to her.

 

My mother went through it. I went through it. Countless other women will continue to go through it, because nobody helps, people are content to dismiss them as stupid and naive and foolish for being tricked and twisted. Not everyone is so lucky or observant, and clearly not everyone has supportive friends or a counselor like I did.

Edited by AngelKitty

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It's not that simple all the time. I went through something similar myself, actually. I pulled myself out by my bootstraps, but it took a slagton of self convincing to do it. It takes an incredibly strong person to break out of the cycle, and even then I had to rely heavily on my friends to help me out of it. I couldn't do it alone. And the same goes for anyone else in a relationship like that; it's difficult to leave if that abuser is the only one who shows (even if in pretend) he cares about you.

 

And you know what, I'm not weak/stupid because it happened to me. It's in the past now and I know how to avoid it in the future. But at that time that guy was pretending he might commit suicide if I stopped talking to him. If it's weak to want to keep someone alive, or at least believe you are, then call me weak. I don't care. I know I'm not to blame.

 

Walker, I'm glad you shared that and that we're talking about this. I'll admit, people see my views as very hard and harsh, but I can't seem to help myself. I can't, no matter how hard I try, seem to be able to understand the mindset that you're describing. I want to, I try. I've listened to my friends...and it all comes off like gibberish to me. If someone goes through a thing and learns, they're never stupid. But I watched good friends of mine go back to these types of guys again and again and I just didn't GET it. I couldn't comprehend what was going through their minds. To me, it's pretty damn simple. You make me feel like crap almost all the time, you say negative things to my face, you disrespect and disregard my feelings, you physically hit me....No, you DO NOT care about me, and in my eyes, that's clear as day and the second I've got that figured out, I'm out the door, and for me, that's not hard at all, that's the only option. I totally admit not understanding the reasons it would be any other way.

 

 

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