Sexism

[KageSora]

Yet you feel a need to take care of a dragon.

...Yes, so that it grows up into pretty dragon-y eye candy.

 

I don't feel the need to care for them because "OMG MUST CARE FOR THEM MUST RAISE THEM MUST LOVE THEM" (I'm more than happy to just shove 'em in a fansite and forget about them until they're adults, and I'm more than happy to slaughter and starve them to obtain zombies). I simply care for them as a means to an end--I like how they look/what they do/am a compulsive collector, and caring for them is the only way to obtain the pretty adult sprites I enjoy hoarding. Not because I have lady bits. Even when I'm feeling most female, I never really feel super-feminine and there's almost always an ulterior motive to my nurturing side that has nothing to do with "girls are nurturing". Of course, that might just be because I never identify as female enough to feel that way.

 

 

RE: SIMS:

 

I was never terribly fond of the SIMS games, but when I did play I liked to kill them all. Or I liked having that kind of power. I did have a SimLife game back years ago, I liked being able to create life. And a SimCity because, again, I liked having that kind of control. Not because I wanted to nurture the little virtual denizens of my city.

 

Related, RollerCoaster Tycoon was fun, I liked drowning angry customers. Damn, I was a sick little sadist when I played that.

 

 

 

Or they're actually comfortable in those clothes, like how they look, and want to wear what they like to go have fun with their friends.  And the people in that clothing deserve to not be harrassed and abused because their skirt is short, their heels are tall, their neckline is diving, whatever.  It's not stupid to expect that men will behave like decent human beings no matter how much skin a woman is exposing.

There are undoubtedly both those females who dress that way because they find it comfortable and enjoy it and those females who dress that way specifically to attract male attention.

 

Without asking each person, you can't know which it is, really.

 

But I do agree that they don't deserve to be treated badly for it--even if they're going for male attention I doubt they want harassment and abuse, they just want attention and a good time. So no matter what the reason, it doesn't excuse crude or rude behavior.

[CrossingStar]

But I do agree that they don't deserve to be treated badly for it--even if they're going for male attention I doubt they want harassment and abuse, they just want attention and a good time. So no matter what the reason, it doesn't excuse crude or rude behavior.

Yeah. I haven't met any woman who dresses that way to get bad words thrown at them or get treated badly. Most of the black girls who do it seem to simply be complying with their culture's norm. Is this a reason to harm or offend them? NO!

[Kestra15]

Yeah, because thongs and very constricting, skimpy clothing in -30C weather is just really enjoyable and comfortable to wear. I don't see them wearing that stuff around the house. I know they dress that way for male attention, I'm 23 and female so I'm in the demographic that frequents clubs and dresses provocatively, so I know many sources that will admit their intentions. Maybe that's not how it is in other places, but that's how it is here. Drinking and going to bars is pretty much the only thing people do around here(because it pretty much IS the only thing to do around here), and sex goes along with that.

 

EDIT: And I like to think that women aren't that stupid to not realize they are objectifying themselves when they dress that way. It makes a lot more sense to purposefully dress that way to gain the benefit of male attention to boost their self esteems, get free drinks, and maybe get a chance to take someone home then for them to actually believe they aren't going to be viewed as sex objects by dressing that way.

This.

 

I do not understand why women will wear what they wear in the nightclubs for any reason other than to get attention.

 

They (usually) don't dress that way to objectify themselves. It makes them feel confident about their bodies. After centuries of being told what to wear by men, it's great that women finally get a chance to wear as much or as little clothing as they want.

Ah yes, of course. It's all the men's fault. I keep forgetting I'm an oppressive overlord :~)

Maybe they're more attractive to you, but they're not dressing for your approval. Don't think it makes them look attractive? Then look away.

Okay, starting to feel confused - you're telling us not to look, and then you're inferring I'm allowed to look if I find them attractive?

I would like to clarify that it's a fairly rare event that I go clubbing actually wearing a cleavage (ha!) revealing top and a short skirt - and when I do go out clubbing wearing a top and trousers, there's a noticeable reduction in male attention. So your assertion that there are 'plenty of sensible clothes you can wear to make you look a heck of a lot more attractive' might be true for you but I'm not at all convinced that it's the norm. (And tbh, you've contradicted it a bit by suggesting that you're quite happy to 'stare at 18yr olds wearing next to nothing' rather than your presumably more 'sensibly' dressed girlfriend).

So are you trying to get male attention by wearing revealing clothing? If that is your objective, how can you then complain when men *do* pay attention and appreciate your body and how much of it you're showing off? The group of friends who I went out with last night got a *lot* looks, and they were all to a person wearing sensible dresses that didn't show off midriff, thigh, cleavage and in most cases shoulder.

 

(It's because my sense of humour doesn't translate very well over the Internet - I do prefer Amerylis in her sexy-yet-sensible clothing over any bikini-clad club-goer - and given the age difference it's starting to feel a little weird now!)

And the people in that clothing deserve to not be harrassed and abused because their skirt is short, their heels are tall, their neckline is diving, whatever.  It's not stupid to expect that men will behave like decent human beings no matter how much skin a woman is exposing.

This I agree with - please let me clarify that my stance isn't 'if they want to dress dirty, we can treat them dirty!' I don't condone harassment or abuse - especially when I've been the one to care for such vulnerable people and seen how horrendous it is for them.

 

I guess the point is appropriateness of attire for the situation. If you are in a nightclub in little more than your underwear, I cannot see how that is for anything more than getting attention - and after spending a few years working in nightclubs, it does appear that the only thing those girls wearing so little is attention, and yet the moment a man is even looking vaguely in their direction they kick up such a fuss about being 'objectified' and 'stared out' - well, put some clothes on then!

 

Wearing your bikini on the beach, or at home to keep cool on a hot day, that is sensible. Even now with it snowing outside I am currently in a towel and dressing gown, because it is comfortable for me, so I can understand and respect that people dress how they feel, and want to dress comfortably. But when I see the girls here slipping up on the ice in their six-inch heels and land on their bare backsides because all they have is a mini-skirt smaller than my belt and some tit-tape to cover their nipples, I cannot see any rational explanation to that look other than 'hey guys and girls, check me out!'

 

And finally - I cannot turn up in a club in a pair of Speedos and nothing else, as it is considered 'indecent' for me to do so, and yet a woman can come in a bikini and waved straight through. Is that not discrimination? Why couldn't I chose to come along and wear the equivalent attire, because I feel comfortable in displaying my package? That I enjoy my body and wearing just boxer shorts? Is it again social conditioning, that it is acceptable for women to scantily clad for the attention of the men, but the men cannot do the same for the women? Which way is that bias against?

Edited December 8, 2012 by Kestra15

[Syaoransbear]

And finally - I cannot turn up in a club in a pair of Speedos and nothing else, as it is considered 'indecent' for me to do so, and yet a woman can come in a bikini and waved straight through. Is that not discrimination? Why couldn't I chose to come along and wear the equivalent attire, because I feel comfortable in displaying my package? That I enjoy my body and wearing just boxer shorts? Is it again social conditioning, that it is acceptable for women to scantily clad for the attention of the men, but the men cannot do the same for the women? Which way is that bias against?

It's possible they would do that because they don't want to lose customers . I don't think anyone, male or female, finds a man in a speedo attractive.

 

I have no idea why women in less clothing is desirable but men in less clothing is undesirable. I kind of think it's because men are people with personalities, hopes, dreams, goals and achievements, whereas women are just bodies you have sex with. It doesn't matter if they have all those things too, that's not their main feature. People feel uncomfortable by a man acting like a sex object because he's a person. When men pose in magazines, they are in suits implying they've done something with their lives and achieved things. When women pose in magazines, it's all about their bodies. It doesn't matter what they've achieved, they are just sex objects. That's just the feeling I get from society.

 

And it makes me angry when women enforce that idea that women are only sex objects because it makes it harder for me to be seen and treated as a human. I am tired of only my appearance being praised. During my wedding, all I got was praise about my appearance and how I looked beautiful. My husband got remarks saying he spoke well, or his speech was great, or he played piano wonderfully, etc. I was jealous of the comments he got praising things he did well, when all I got was praise over my stupid appearance. I did so much work organizing a wedding and people only cared about how I looked. I'm tired of appearance being so important that everything I achieve is looked over like it doesn't matter. And I'm tired of so many women encouraging others to think that way about women because they want free drinks, or a promotion, or whatever else they use their appearance to achieve. I don't want to be a body, I want to be a person.

[WereJace]

This I agree with - please let me clarify that my stance isn't 'if they want to dress dirty, we can treat them dirty!' I don't condone harassment or abuse - especially when I've been the one to care for such vulnerable people and seen how horrendous it is for them.

And yet you still called them dirty?

 

 

I guess the point is appropriateness of attire for the situation. If you are in a nightclub in little more than your underwear, I cannot see how that is for anything more than getting attention - and after spending a few years working in nightclubs, it does appear that the only thing those girls wearing so little is attention, and yet the moment a man is even looking vaguely in their direction they kick up such a fuss about being 'objectified' and 'stared out' - well, put some clothes on then!

 

If they are 'kicking up a fuss' about someone staring at them, clearly they didn't dress as they did to get attention and you have therefore misread their intentions. If they wanted to be looked at, they would not be upset by people staring at them or approaching them.

 

Wearing your bikini on the beach, or at home to keep cool on a hot day, that is sensible. Even now with it snowing outside I am currently in a towel and dressing gown, because it is comfortable for me, so I can understand and respect that people dress how they feel, and want to dress comfortably. But when I see the girls here slipping up on the ice in their six-inch heels and land on their bare backsides because all they have is a mini-skirt smaller than my belt and some tit-tape to cover their nipples, I cannot see any rational explanation to that look other than 'hey guys and girls, check me out!'

 

Why isn't 'because they want to' a rational explanation? Or 'because they like how they look in those clothes'? Or 'because they actually are comfortable in what they're wearing, seriously'? Some might be opting for those items because they want attention, but that's not the only explanation and it doesn't excuse other people acting inappropriately towards them or treating them poorly. I don't get why the same person is 'dirty' or 'skanky' in a short skirt and a bra-top and 'normal' in a t-shirt and jeans. She's still the same woman she was before she changed her clothes-smart or dumb, sweet or mean, quirky or straight-laced. A person's character is not dictated by the clothes they wear.

[Kestra15]

If they are 'kicking up a fuss' about someone staring at them, clearly they didn't dress as they did to get attention and you have therefore misread their intentions.  If they wanted to be looked at, they would not be upset by people staring at them or approaching them.

But you *know* that men are going to stare if you dress like that! I honestly think it's utter stupidity on their behalf. It's a rather simple concept; if you don't want to be stared at all evening, why go and chose the most revealing thing in your warderobe that you *know* men will stare at? If you don't want to be stared at, wear something a bit more conservative.

 

Maybe I have misread their intentions, but it is a fairly simple piece of logic and their lack of adherence to it is just plain stupidty. And before anyone starts the tired old 'I'm subjugating women' or any other such argument, it's a principle that applies to anyone in any situation; if you don't want action A to occur, and you know by taking action B you will precipitate action A, then don't take action B.

Why isn't 'because they want to' a rational explanation?

Because it is stupidity to wear barely any clothing when it's minus temperatures and they know it is a provocative state of dress.

A person's character is not dictated by the clothes they wear.

No, but it does reflect them.

I have no idea why women in less clothing is desirable but men in less clothing is undesirable. I kind of think it's because men are people with personalities, hopes, dreams, goals and achievements, whereas women are just bodies you have sex with. It doesn't matter if they have all those things too, that's not their main feature. People feel uncomfortable by a man acting like a sex object because he's a person. When men pose in magazines, they are in suits implying they've done something with their lives and achieved things. When women pose in magazines, it's all about their bodies. It doesn't matter what they've achieved, they are just sex objects. That's just the feeling I get from society.

A wonderful answer - and I think you're right.

 

Do you think it's a reflection therefore of what society want? The old stereotype that women want a man with a decent personality, that they're successful and smart and resourceful, and that men are only interested in a woman's body, so therefore our media plays on those traits?

Edited December 8, 2012 by Kestra15

[Syaoransbear]

A wonderful answer - and I think you're right.

 

Do you think it's a reflection therefore of what society want? The old stereotype that women want a man with a decent personality, that they're successful and smart and resourceful, and that men are only interested in a woman's body, so therefore our media plays on those traits?

I think it is what society really wants, even though we know in the long run it's completely detrimental. Men seem okay with it because they enjoy seeing women act that way, and women seem okay with it because they want to use their sex appeal to their advantage instead of trying to compete with men on a level playing field. Why work hard when you can show a little cleavage and get a raise that way? But they don't seem to get that their actions are not exclusive to their lives, and they poorly represent all women when they objectify themselves.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Syaoransbear

[KageSora]

And finally - I cannot turn up in a club in a pair of Speedos and nothing else, as it is considered 'indecent' for me to do so, and yet a woman can come in a bikini and waved straight through. Is that not discrimination? Why couldn't I chose to come along and wear the equivalent attire, because I feel comfortable in displaying my package? That I enjoy my body and wearing just boxer shorts? Is it again social conditioning, that it is acceptable for women to scantily clad for the attention of the men, but the men cannot do the same for the women? Which way is that bias against?

I would argue it's equally biased against both. It IS discrimination. Personally, I don't think anybody--regardless of sex and/or gender--should be going out in practically nothing but their underwear. Swimwear should be worn at the beach/pool/in your home/other places related to the first two where it's appropriate. But hey, I think that indecency rules and laws should equally apply to both men and women--so if the girls can go out just barely clothed then the men should be allowed to as well. If the men can't, then the women shouldn't be allowed to.

 

It IS a form of discrimination, one that I think is born from the "man > woman" culture where women's bodies are objects for men to look at, but men are not objects to be ogled so they shouldn't dress that way because it's what women do.

 

Which, really, just is unfair to both men and women.

 

But you *know* that men are going to stare if you dress like that! I honestly think it's utter stupidity on their behalf. It's a rather simple concept; if you don't want to be stared at all evening, why go and chose the most revealing thing in your warderobe that you *know* men will stare at? If you don't want to be stared at, wear something a bit more conservative.

I agree this is true. I would also argue that it is a result of the sexist and men > woman culture. That may not be the intent in the minds of men doing it--but it happens that way as a result of the social conditioning that both men and women receive that women are there for men to look at.

 

If we can change the cultural perception of women being eyecandy for men and there for them to touch and have sex with and existing for little else, then perhaps we can change the idea that skimpy clothes = desiring male attention.

 

...Though that'll be a long time coming, if ever. Doesn't mean we can't work for it anyway, though.

[WereJace]

Maybe I have misread their intentions, but it is a fairly simple piece of logic and their lack of adherence to it is just plain stupidty. And before anyone starts the tired old 'I'm subjugating women' or any other such argument, it's a principle that applies to anyone in any situation; if you don't want action A to occur, and you know by taking action B you will precipitate action A, then don't take action B.

 

So it's her fault that the men around her are incapable of basic politeness and self-control? She's provoking them to action by choosing clothing that she likes to wear? Men are incapable of independent thought and respect for the boundaries of another person? Men are capable of choosing not to harrass women, even scantily clad ones. It's a little insulting towards men to give them a pass on that sort of gross behaviour while laying all the blame for their actions, which they freely choose to take, on the woman.

[catstaff]

So it's her fault that the men around her are incapable of basic politeness and self-control? She's provoking them to action by choosing clothing that she likes to wear? Men are incapable of independent thought and respect for the boundaries of another person? Men are capable of choosing not to harrass women, even scantily clad ones. It's a little insulting towards men to give them a pass on that sort of gross behaviour while laying all the blame for their actions, which they freely choose to take, on the woman.

This.

 

Also, even if we do assume a woman is dressing provocatively in order to generate attention, there's a difference between reasonably polite attention, and creepy attention and harassment.

 

When I was younger and single, yes, I'd sometimes dress provocatively to go out. And yes, I was doing it specifically to generate attention. I can admit this. I also had no problem with guys checking me out... as long as they were doing so respectfully. Looks, even long looks were fine. Comments such as "You look great!" were fine. Offers of drinks or requests to dance, also fine.

 

On the other hand, I was not fine with the guy who followed me around the place staring at me, up to and including following me to the ladies' room and waiting outside the door for me to come back out. I was not fine with the guy who leered and asked how much I charged as I passed his seat. I was not fine with the guy who grabbed my backside and attempted to haul me in and kiss me without so much as saying hello or introducing himself.

 

And this is the sort of attention that is inexcusable, as far as I'm concerned, no matter what someone happens to be wearing. If someone rings the doorbell when I'm about to get in the shower, I'm going to answer the door in my robe... that is not an invitation to the FedEx delivery guy to assume I'm a bored housewife looking to seduce him. Likewise, if I wear a miniskirt and a cleavage-revealing top to a club, it is not an invitation to be grabbed or accosted rudely or followed around.

 

And that choice of behavior is completely on the men. They can check out the provocatively-dressed woman in a reasonably respectful manner, or they can be obnoxious. That choice is theirs.

[St. Jimmy]

Okay, starting to feel confused - you're telling us not to look, and then you're inferring I'm allowed to look if I find them attractive?

Just to clarify, by "look away" I meant "look the other way."

 

But you *know* that men are going to stare if you dress like that! I honestly think it's utter stupidity on their behalf. It's a rather simple concept; if you don't want to be stared at all evening, why go and chose the most revealing thing in your warderobe that you *know* men will stare at? If you don't want to be stared at, wear something a bit more conservative.

Why is it so hard for men to just not stare? Why should all the responsibility be on the woman to dress conservatively?

[KageSora]

I must have read Kestra's post very different.

 

What I got was that he wasn't saying they should just expect to be treated like objects and touched without consent or looked at highly inappropriately or followed around. He wasn't excusing that sort of behavior.

 

I thought he was taking issue with the girls who dress in a way that is usually associated with generating male attention who throw a fit the minute a man's eyes land on their body or a man politely offers them a drink. Not the girls who dress that way and take issue with the people who are highly inappropriate in their behavior.

[catstaff]

I must have read Kestra's post very different.

 

What I got was that he wasn't saying they should just expect to be treated like objects and touched without consent or looked at highly inappropriately or followed around.  He wasn't excusing that sort of behavior.

 

I thought he was taking issue with the girls who dress in a way that is usually associated with generating male attention who throw a fit the minute a man's eyes land on their body or a man politely offers them a drink.  Not the girls who dress that way and take issue with the people who are highly inappropriate in their behavior.

If that's the case, then I apologize for the misinterpretation.

 

However, he didn't specify in his post that he was only taking issue with those women who dress provocatively and then start ranting and raving the moment someone turns eyes their way. Perhaps I was a little quick in jumping to conclusions, but as a woman, I've personally experienced far, far too many men behaving inappropriately and then attempting to excuse their behavior with the "she shouldn't have worn that if she didn't want the attention" argument.

Edited December 9, 2012 by catstaff

[TikindiDragon]

So it's her fault that the men around her are incapable of basic politeness and self-control? She's provoking them to action by choosing clothing that she likes to wear? Men are incapable of independent thought and respect for the boundaries of another person? Men are capable of choosing not to harrass women, even scantily clad ones. It's a little insulting towards men to give them a pass on that sort of gross behaviour while laying all the blame for their actions, which they freely choose to take, on the woman.

How on earth did you get to the idea that Kestra is in any way condoning harrassment and gross behaviour? Seriously.

 

He said that is someone was wearing that little he'd look. Not anything else, just look. Look conveys a completely different idea that 'stare' does, and I'm pretty sure that if he had meant 'stare' Kestra would have used toi word 'stare'.

 

I find you post to be highly accusatory, and to be a completete twisting of anything Kestra might have said.

 

And, I'll be honest, it's posts like this that have put me so off feminists. Posts that put all blame, for every action, everywhere, on the men. You want men to think about how the women are going to react to things - and to consider her point of view.... yet you consider a male point of view to be irrelevant, worthless, and not something that should be aknowledge. You seem to want turn everything that's not complete agreement with you into somehow being a defence of rape of sexual harassment.

 

I call bull.

 

Looking is not action.

Looking is not impolite.

Looking is not harassment.

Looking is not a lack of self control.

Looking is not disrespecting a person's boundaries.

 

And I think it's *highly* insulting towards men to imply that anyone who looks must automatically go on to take action about it. From his previous posts I know that Kestra in no way supports men bahaving inappropriately towards women. Neither do I.

 

But looking is not inappropriate behaviour.

 

I would imagine the people Kestra takes issue with are the same ones I would - people who dress wearing nothing more than a skirt that might as well be a belt and a couple of bits of rope and then complain about some people even *looking* at them. Not touching, not talking, not even staring for long periods, just looking. (Note, here, for all *you* know it may be indisgust. I don't suppose it ever entered your mind that some men might be looking because they think it's vulgar to have that much flesh on display? No, of course not, that would go against the idea that all men are inherantly pigs and rapists wouldn't it?). It's as if there's this strange idea that says "I can go out wearing as little as I like, and I can expect the only people to look at me to be the ones I find attractive. No one else is allowed to look at me, and if you even aknowledge my existence then abviously you are a filthy dirty person and something is wrong with you.".

 

Plus, and I will repeat it, no one in their right *mind* wears that few clothes when it's that bloody cold. Honestly.

 

(Small note - Jace, you actually are starting to come across as being the kind of raging, hard-line feminist I've had some *major* run ins with in the past. Just to let you know. People using language like yours have usually gone on to be all sorts of transphobic towards me. If my reactions seems overly harsh to you, please stop and consider why. When people using that sort of language tell me I'm a traitor and I shouldn't exist, I'm not likely to agree with anything they say.)

[WereJace]

(Small note - Jace, you actually are starting to come across as being the kind of raging, hard-line feminist I've had some *major* run ins with in the past. Just to let you know. People using language like yours have usually gone on to be all sorts of transphobic towards me. If my reactions seems overly harsh to you, please stop and consider why. When people using that sort of language tell me I'm a traitor and I shouldn't exist, I'm not likely to agree with anything they say.)

 

I have not done or said anything here regarding transgendered people, their treatment or their status. If I had an opinion on the matter that I felt was necessary to express in any discussion, it would be addressed in the appropriate thread. If it is necessary to clarify it here and now, I have no issue with transgendered people, and do not consider transgendered people traitors or wish any kind of violence towards them. I have nothing to offer by way of proof, however, so you may take all of that with as large a grain of salt as you feel is necessary.

 

As to the rest, this is an issue I take personally. Clearly too personally for this discussion. So I will step back.

[TikindiDragon]

I have not done or said anything here regarding transgendered people, their treatment or their status. If I had an opinion on the matter that I felt was necessary to express in any discussion, it would be addressed in the appropriate thread. If it is necessary to clarify it here and now, I have no issue with transgendered people, and do not consider transgendered people traitors or wish any kind of violence towards them. I have nothing to offer by way of proof, however, so you may take all of that with as large a grain of salt as you feel is necessary.

 

As to the rest, this is an issue I take personally. Clearly too personally for this discussion. So I will step back.

I wasn't having a go at you with that last bit - more making the kind of statement I've seen some others make. I know there are people here that are automatically wary of anyone that says they are Christian because thay have had bad run ins - I was explaining that I'm automatically wary of people that seem hard-line feminist because I, aslo, have had some nasty run ins.

[Kestra15]

Thank you Tiki and Kage for actually reading my posts.

[WereJace]

I wasn't having a go at you with that last bit - more making the kind of statement I've seen some others make. I know there are people here that are automatically wary of anyone that says they are Christian because thay have had bad run ins - I was explaining that I'm automatically wary of people that seem hard-line feminist because I, aslo, have had some nasty run ins.

I am familiar with those individuals and their rhetoric, and while some of our beliefs and attitudes may coincide, that is not one of them.

[Kestra15]

Why is it so hard for men to just not stare? Why should all the responsibility be on the woman to dress conservatively?

Because as grown adults it's your own personal responsibility to safeguard your well-being. Wearing this or this when it's -10 Celcius is frankly stupidity, and then to complain that people are even glancing in your direction, is a critical failure of logic. And when these people collapse in a field or dark alley at 3am in the morning in a puddle of their own vomit and their body temperature drops into the 20s, I'm not always going to be there to help them.

[KageSora]

D: Urk! I can't even imagine people wearing that when it's that cold! I'm getting freezing just thinking about that! Unless they're immune to the cold, then I can't honestly see anybody being comfortable in that kind of getup in serious cold.

[Kestra15]

D:  Urk!  I can't even imagine people wearing that when it's that cold!  I'm getting freezing just thinking about that!  Unless they're immune to the cold, then I can't honestly see anybody being comfortable in that kind of getup in serious cold.

They're not, sadly. and when you've had alcohol you get your 'beer coat' and while you may feel warm, you don't realise you're suffering hypothermia until you collapse from it.

 

And before anyone cries out that they are extreme and rare examples - they're not. I see hundreds of people attend my nightclub every week in attire like this - and that's just one small nightclub at the edge of a quiet city in rural England.

Edited December 9, 2012 by Kestra15

[KageSora]

Exactly, they can't be comfortable like that. Which clearly means they're doing it for some other reason, most likely to get attention, as you said. I honestly can't imagine what other reason they could possibly have for that--and how badly they must crave it to dress that way in such cold.

[TikindiDragon]

Because as grown adults it's your own personal responsibility to safeguard your well-being. Wearing this or this when it's -10 Celcius is frankly stupidity, and then to complain that people are even glancing in your direction, is a critical failure of logic. And when these people collapse in a field or dark alley at 3am in the morning in a puddle of their own vomit and their body temperature drops into the 20s, I'm not always going to be there to help them.

Yup, those'd be the kinds of get-ups I was talking about. Bumped into a couple of people wearing that sort of thing on the way home from London yesterday evening (Only about 6pm, we'd been to a matinee) - and if experience teaches me right I imagine there would have been an awful lot more of them by the time the evening was underway.

 

Seriously, people, wearing stuff like that is lunacy. It's not asking for rape (nothing, ever, asks for or excuses that) but it bloody well *is* asking for hypothermia. With some stuff I can accept the statment that it makes the person feel good about themselves - but are you really going to tell me that wearing that sort of thing makes you feel good when you're out in the kind of weather that any sane person has both jumper and overcoat on in?

[St. Jimmy]

Seriously, people, wearing stuff like that is lunacy. It's not asking for rape (nothing, ever, asks for or excuses that) but it bloody well *is* asking for hypothermia. With some stuff I can accept the statment that it makes the person feel good about themselves - but are you really going to tell me that wearing that sort of thing makes you feel good when you're out in the kind of weather that any sane person has both jumper and overcoat on in?

I probably should have been clearer about this in my posts, but I was talking about when people dress like this and it's a decent temperature. I do agree that wearing little clothing in freezing weather is kind of stupid.

[TikindiDragon]

I probably should have been clearer about this in my posts, but I was talking about when people dress like this and it's a decent temperature. I do agree that wearing little clothing in freezing weather is kind of stupid.

Bit of an odd tangent, as I know I and several others have made it very clear each time that we've been posting about people wearing very skimpy clothes in *not* decent temperatures. Please also bear in mind that both Kestra and I live in the UK - where the kind of temperatures it would need to be for that sort of clothing to be comfortable aren't exactly common for most of the year. Still, the clarification is appreciated.