Sexism

[Rosedamai]

I was mainly trying to point out that by local standards... it's like nothing is ever enough.

I know how you feel.

 

This is a famous celebrity, and guess what people called her? Fat.

 

 

And to her face, too.

 

So you can imagine the flack I get daily.

Edited May 28, 2012 by ylangylang

[Kestra15]

I'd hit that ^ like the wrath of an angry god.

[lightbird]

Come to the UK, they could walk around in tracksuit bottoms and messy hair and they will have their choice of the local boys.

 

Not that the local boys are much good :~P But the point stands; come to the UK, and every Baltic girl is considered a goddess without having to worry about the hours of preparation.

 

What I want to know is whether it's the air or just good genetics :~P

I have an engaged friend in the UK whom I'll visit this summer, and she constantly gets hit on... mostly not by very pleasant fellows either. :'D

 

Speaking of genetics, I think it might be the amount of various nation that have passed through and/or rules here at some point.

 

And Ylangylang, she certainly is curvier than a lot of Asian models I've seen, but it's definitely not a bad thing.

[Rosedamai]

Ylangylang, she certainly is curvier than a lot of Asian models I've seen, but it's definitely not a bad thing.

I know...it's just that people seem to have impossible standards for women. It's like a checklist for women's appearance to go through. I wonder if they think there's a girl-factory somewhere where they can order them. If you dress up and put up makeup, you get the comment that "why are you wearing makeup? You shouldn't wear too much makeup, it's gross" if you don't wear makeup, you're "not taking care of yourself" and sometimes even if you do wear makeup and try to look nice, people just...compare you to some celebrity, whom you can't never, ever measure up to as they're the type of people who earn money by looking pretty and I'm not. And even celebrities get flack for "not looking pretty enough" or some crap like that. I'm just tired of this. You point out a guy's flaws and he always ragestorms you, but he thinks it's perfectly normal to comment on a girl's outfit. And when you note the hypocrisy, he goes like, "but girls should look pretty at all times!" (an actual comment that I've heard.)

 

I'm just sick of this. I'm guessing that you are, too.

 

@Kestra-you always make me laugh One day I'll go to the UK and meet you and fuzzbucket. That'd be fun.

Edited May 28, 2012 by ylangylang

[Zovesta]

Woahmygod, ylangylang, I think that might be the most beautiful woman I've ever seen in my life... She's not fat by any means, she's very thin, she just has the fat needed for those beautiful curves. =( She also looks actually healthy. What's her name? I'd love to get my hands on a few more pictures of her. <3

[Rosedamai]

Woahmygod, ylangylang, I think that might be the most beautiful woman I've ever seen in my life... She's not fat by any means, she's very thin, she just has the fat needed for those beautiful curves. =( She also looks actually healthy. What's her name? I'd love to get my hands on a few more pictures of her. <3

Hyori Lee Thanks, I like her too

[Princess Artemis]

She's beautiful. I have no idea why anyone would say anything negative about her appearance.

 

ETA: re: the facebook pic: As far as choosing to wear heels and makeup, maybe the lady is going to that school where the professor has the syllabus that requires heels and makeup for a good grade. You know, not every woman on the planet chooses to destroy their feet. A good number of them do it because if they don't, they would get fired or wouldn't get a good job in the first place. Welcome to sexism, where a man can tell a woman she can just choose not to wear heels as if it's Just That Easy.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Princess Artemis

[Kestra15]

She's beautiful.  I have no idea why anyone would say anything negative about her appearance.

 

ETA: re: the facebook pic: As far as choosing to wear heels and makeup, maybe the lady is going to that school where the professor has the syllabus that requires heels and makeup for a good grade.  You know, not every woman on the planet chooses to destroy their feet.  A good number of them do it because if they don't, they would get fired or wouldn't get a good job in the first place.  Welcome to sexism, where a man can tell a woman she can just choose not to wear heels as if it's Just That Easy.

That's because it really is Just That Easy. Aside from on here, I've yet to come across a single person who has been fired/struck off a course/failed an interview just because she chose to wear flats instead of heels, or didn't wear make-up, etc, etc, etc.

 

 

One of the most frustrating things, as a male, that I hear in the argument about sexism - after of course hearing years of users essentially saying that as a male my opinion is worthless coz I could never understand what it's like to be discriminated against - is how much sexism is accepted by both sides. Yes, in some countries and cultures it is thoroughly corrupt and ingrained - Ylangylang has provided us fantastic evidence of this over the year. But when it comes to the UK, America and most 'Western' countries it becomes a bit of a joke.

 

The thing is fear, fear to do different, fear to be different. There is this thought that if you don't conform to the 'norm,' that if you dare to try and do anything about it, then you will fail - and thus you have already failed by never trying, never starting. There is fear that keeps you in your daily job because you're afraid that by not putting on endless layers of make-up one morning, you'll be fired. There's the fear that by not wearing heels you'll be seen as scruffy and a layabout and not putting the effort.

 

Here's the thing then - be different. Do different. Because it's not how you look or how you dress - it's how you act.

 

Sorry, but I've worked in offices and classrooms and hospitals, and it's amazing what happens when people have the courage to stand up and be themselves. We have that option here in the UK and it's there in the US, it's just how people are so easily accepting of their status and place and no-one dares to try and change themselves or their world around them.

 

Your lecturer 'demands' high heels and make-up? Challenge him. Walk into the Vice-Chancellor's office, give him a copy of these 'demands,' sit in the chair opposite and state your case firmly but calmly. Rally support, make a respectable but firm scene, and watch them back down as you get local and national support if you need to.

 

Your boss says you need heels? Wear flats for a few days and act like it's normal. When they complain, ask to see where it says in your contract you 'must' wear heels. If it's in the contract, go to his boss and do the same thing as above.

 

If you need the crutch of make-up and heels and pretty dresses to boost your self-esteem then that is not a case for sexism, that's a different kettle of fish. But when it comes to being 'accepted by society' then you'll be surprised what happens when you just relax and be yourself.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Kestra15

[Kelkelen]

It's doable. Not necessarily easy, but doable. I think some people just choose the path of least resistance because there's enough unfair things in the world, so they'll pick their battles; i.e., they won't go through the stress of going to job interviews without makeup, if it might hurt their professional image. They'll save their energy for what they see as bigger and more important things.

 

I made the shaving choice in college, and it wasn't what I would call "easy." I didn't want to shave my legs any more, because I'd had the sudden realization that my culture had trained me to see my own leg hair as something gross that I should remove, rather than as part of my natural body. I wanted to untrain myself, and the only way I could think of was to make myself not shave for a year. Now, I don't shave my legs at all, and you are SO right that I don't customarily get flack for it - not in situations that "count," like being hired. But at first, it was really, really difficult, because strangers would make comments on it all the time, I had to defend myself, and even a few of my friends reacted like I was dirty (I bathe! I just don't shave!), or weird. And now, although the choice doesn't hinder me in any significant fashion, it still draws looks and whispers and I still find myself routinely having to explain *why.* I totally understand why some people don't want to buck the norm - it just doesn't seem worth the effort. Not everyone wants to deal with the looks and comments and questions.

 

It also led to what *was* something of a sexist incident, with a friend who is, under usual circumstances, a total sweetheart. He's very active with Amnesty International, GLBT associations, is a feminist, etc. But one time, he told me straight out that he really thought I should stop shaving my armpits, too. He thought it would make a better statement. He'd basically learned that "oppressive patriarchy makes women shave and women should not shave"... which was, in some twisted way, yet another form of decreeing that women should follow certain orders. I had to remind him that the main point should be that I do what I want to with my body, not what a group of people declares is best for me, and that I didn't welcome him telling me what to do with my body.

 

That kind of falls in the same category as other times when I've heard men come to the defense of women... with all good intentions, truly, but with their comments still focused on what they find attractive in a woman, rather than the fact that women should be free individuals who do what they want and who all have different body types. For example, when a group of people are being down on fat women and a guy says, "Hey, I *like* women with curves." Or when a man counters a discussion of breast size by declaring his preference for small-chested women or for busty women, to 'fight' the people claiming one is better than the other—instead of stepping back and realizing that they're still assuming that the top priority for the women, and their measure of their own worth, is (or ought to be) how well they appeal to men.

 

ETA: @Kestra, I hear you. I can't stand it when people say how another group can never, ever understand. Sure, you may not personally *live* an experience, but the whole point of communication, of empathy, is that we can understand one another, if we actively try to learn. All anyone can ask of a member of another group is that they listen with an open mind and a will to understand.

 

Also, you make a *good* point about the fear. Like I mentioned above, it wasn't an 'easy' transition, because the experience made me so aware of all the little fears and judgments and oversensitivities I had - not just about my legs, but other aspects of myself, too! I think women, more so than men, are bombarded with all sorts of physical and visual expectations by society, to the point that we honestly can't SEE how free we are to change what we do. We're not "supposed to" look a certain way or do certain things, and yet how liberating, when you discover that there is only minimal backlash for "breaking the rules!" (I'm pretty sure we carry that fear because of the not-so-far past, or the present in other countries, where there are definite and severe consequences for acting outside our bounds as women.)

Edited May 28, 2012 by Kelkelen

[Zaxian]

That's because it really is Just That Easy. Aside from on here, I've yet to come across a single person who has been fired/struck off a course/failed an interview just because she chose to wear flats instead of heels, or didn't wear make-up, etc, etc, etc.

Well, bully for you.

 

Perhaps you don't know anybody that's been directly fired etc, etc, for not wearing heels/makeup, but do you honestly think that interviewers don't make a judgement about how a person looks when they interview them? And that most straight male interviewers wouldn't choose the high-heeled, makeup-ed, low-cut-top wearing female over another woman of equal skills who wasn't?

 

As an example: all the receptionists at my bf's work (in a highly male-dominated industry) are female and are stereotypically 'pretty' (and wear high-heels and makeup, etc, etc). I highly doubt they were the only qualified individuals for the position. So I wonder what else might have been the deciding factor in getting them the job? ¬_¬

[Princess Artemis]

Your lecturer 'demands' high heels and make-up? Challenge him. Walk into the Vice-Chancellor's office, give him a copy of these 'demands,' sit in the chair opposite and state your case firmly but calmly. Rally support, make a respectable but firm scene, and watch them back down as you get local and national support if you need to.

 

Your boss says you need heels? Wear flats for a few days and act like it's normal. When they complain, ask to see where it says in your contract you 'must' wear heels. If it's in the contract, go to his boss and do the same thing as above.

Oh, this so totally sounds Just That Easy.

 

Oh wait. It actually sounds like a bunch of effort that women shouldn't have to go through for a personal choice. Congrats, you've discovered sexism.

[Kestra15]

Oh, this so totally sounds Just That Easy.

 

Oh wait.  It actually sounds like a bunch of effort that women shouldn't have to go through for a personal choice.  Congrats, you've discovered sexism.

No, it's called 'being yourself.'

 

What, you think girls are the only ones who have to stand up for themselves? Everyone has to make a stand at some point.

 

And yes, it is Just That Easy - try it, and you'll see. I am expected, as a lecturer, to have worn a full suit and been clean-shaven and have my tie in a correct knot and have my hair cut short and 'male'-style and no piercings - and yet the female lecturers could turn up in a cardigan and a skirt or trousers and have short dyed hair or long luxurious locks or piercings galore or essentially whatever they wanted.

 

So I turned up after my first month of work in a loose, long-sleeved jumper with a plain white t-shirt underneath, my ponytail down and not shaved for three days with trainers instead of smart, polished shoes - and aside from my boss raising an eyebrow at me on the first day, nothing happened.

 

So, why not do as suggested? I mean really, what is stopping you from taking that prescribed course of action other than trembling knees? I never denied it would be hard, but it really is Just That Easy. It's actually Just That Easy to tell other men I'm a nurse, and to sit around with my cross-stitch on the plane or in the campsite, and show off pictures of my knitting. In fact, because I was seen doing all the sewing on the campsite some guys asked me to fix their clothes in exchange for beer - so not bad at all, free beer for five minutes with a needle.

 

Well, bully for you.

 

Perhaps you don't know anybody that's been directly fired etc, etc, for not wearing heels/makeup, but do you honestly think that interviewers don't make a judgement about how a person looks when they interview them? And that most straight male interviewers wouldn't choose the high-heeled, makeup-ed, low-cut-top wearing female over another woman of equal skills who wasn't?

 

As an example: all the receptionists at my bf's work (in a highly male-dominated industry) are female and are stereotypically 'pretty' (and wear high-heels and makeup, etc, etc). I highly doubt they were the only qualified individuals for the position. So I wonder what else might have been the deciding factor in getting them the job? ¬_¬

Sexism is present in both sides. Zaxian, are you *sure* that's the case? Because it's just as sexist for you to say that they only got the job because they're pretty. Are you sure that the hiring panel was heterosexual men only? Do you personally know all other applicants? Did you sit in on the interviews? No, you're assuming that because they're all good-looking then they only got the job for the guys to perv on them. Well done for being sexist.

 

As for looking good at interview? It's kind of a standard thing that come interview you dress up to look impressive - hence why I have always been clean-shaven suited and booted to all my interviews - and yes, judgement is made there and then. No matter who, what, where or when. But what makes you think that the good-looking person will always win? I'll tell you now that if the 'good-looking' one always wins then some darn ugly teachers must have applied at my college, and Gods know how ugly my fellow nursing applicants must have been for me to pass

 

But come interview time it will always come down to your intelligence, your style, your attitude and your achievements - looks are just an added bonus. If two people were *completely* identical except one was prettier than the other...well, remember that beauty is a totally subjective choice. And you assume that it's a male heterosexual interviewing the females (again) - why not a homosexual male? Why not a female panel? Or what about if a female homosexual chooses the pretty female - is that sexism?

 

And as for the woman in a low-cut top in layers of make-up and high-heels? No, because actually as an interviewer I would go for the one who is a bit more conservative and, on a personal level, I'm not into high heels or make-up and if the one in the low-cut top is twenty years older than the other girl than I'd more likely go for the younger lady. Subjective, see? Other straight males - who knows? You assume that our lust for women overrides professionalism, which is again sexist.

 

What about the reverse anyway? Would you hire someone who looks like Brad Pitt/Hugh Jackman/your dream guy over me, someone who is a little overweight? That kind of discrimination works both ways after all.

 

Yes, 'bully' for me. I am quite glad I stand up for what I believe in. I am glad I have friends and a lover who do the same. As Kelkelen said, it's never going to be easy - regardless of race, colour, creed, gender - to make a stand. Everyone, everywhere, has 'norms' that you are expected to conform to. But you'll be amazed how easy it can be to change what is acceptable in those terms.

 

Although I'm sure that I'll now be told that it's somehow easier for me to buck the system because I'm male. Yeah, that totally makes sense.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Kestra15

[runedragon]

Sexism is wrong. Statistically, women make 77 cents to every dollar a man makes. we need to fix this and bring more equality.

[TikindiDragon]

Re: the shoes thing - I have never worn heels to work in my *life*, and I've also never had trouble getting a job.

 

I've never willingly worn make-up in my life, and I've never had a problem getting a job.

 

I also haven't shaved regularly since I was in my late teens and guess what - still never had a problem getting a job.

 

In my current work I'm customer facing. I go out, ever day, into people's houses.... and I've never once had a customer complain about my looks, only compliment me on how polite and professional I am.

 

(for those people that didn't know - I'm trans, but no out about it. Most of the world thinks I'm female still, including my workplace.)

[Syaoransbear]

I wore a dress and sneakers to a BBQ the other day because I have a partial LCL tear and didn't want to be in pain and I got made fun of :/. They were nice looking sneakers too.

 

Even though I think women on average have more problems with sexism, I think they wouldn't have nearly as many problems if women would stop being sexist towards women. Every girl/woman that makes fun of another female because of what she's wearing or her lack of make-up or for not following some other feminine 'rule' is ruining it for the rest of us.

[Full of Bees]

Sexism is wrong. Statistically, women make 77 cents to every dollar a man makes. we need to fix this and bring more equality.

It's actually lower for women of color. African American women only earn 62 cents per dollar, and Latinas only 53 cents for each dollar.

[Sookan]

I'm always wary of these statistics. Are they being taken from the same profession, or are we comparing businessmen to waitresses?

 

It might very well be true that women are, on average, paid a lower wage or salary, but unless you break the numbers down and look at why, you can't even begin to speculate how we fix this.

[7Deadly$ins]

I'm always wary of these statistics. Are they being taken from the same profession, or are we comparing businessmen to waitresses?

 

It might very well be true that women are, on average, paid a lower wage or salary, but unless you break the numbers down and look at why, you can't even begin to speculate how we fix this.

An obvious problem will arise in the numbers of Latina, African American, etc., women are actually in certain professions.

[Rosedamai]

An obvious problem will arise in the numbers of Latina, African American, etc., women are actually in certain professions.

Another problem arises when you take into account that many women become housekeepers not out of their choice but because they couldn't get jobs-so they decide to get married and settle down instead. Or, some do so because of pregnancy and subsequent childbirth and child care-there are some people that, rather than to give pregnancy leave, decide to fire the worker, and so they have no choice but to stay at home or take jobs that pay much less than their previous jobs but have more free time. Mind you, not ALL women are like this, some do stay at home and take care of the kids out of choice. But still, you can't really distinguish between those who did choose and those that didn't have any choice in the matter. So.

[gggaaahhh1]

Also, 50% of stats are made up, so that's not really accurate.

[7Deadly$ins]

And so is that one.

[Nine]

No statistics here, but since the economic problems that have stretched pretty globally, the workforce is now shifting towards a preference in women rather than men. Women are also graduating college at a more rapid pace than men. I'm pretty sure the statistic about women earning much less than men is defunct nowadays, or at least a whole lot less noticeable than it was.

 

I really don't want to scour the internet for sources, but I remember there was a TED-Talks video about the changes in the workforce, for those interested. It was more of a motivational speech rather than hard facts, though. Opportunities for women have skyrocketed lately, and I wish more attention was focused on those optimistic prospects rather than outdated facts that could depress anyone into not wanting to go for their goals. Like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Princess Artemis]

Kestra, I really do think you have an issue redefining words when it suits you to do so. You say something is easy, then you proceed to describe the not insignificant effort involved in doing something "easy".

 

Now, I never said what you are describing as so very very easy as impossibly hard, but it surely is not easy. For a lot of women, choosing not to wear heels or makeup isn't easy. Easy != Possible. Easy != Doable with Effort. You're smart enough to know this, so stop acting like you don't.

 

I also think you haven't the slightest clue what I do or not do in my personal life and with my personal choices, so don't suggest I "try it sometime" like it would be some big revelation as to how wonderfully easy all these things would be. I already know they aren't easy because I already do some of them and catch flack for my choices.

 

Even though I think women on average have more problems with sexism, I think they wouldn't have nearly as many problems if women would stop being sexist towards women. Every girl/woman that makes fun of another female because of what she's wearing or her lack of make-up or for not following some other feminine 'rule' is ruining it for the rest of us.

 

Yeah, there's no rule that says women can't be sexist :/

 

Glad to hear some of you don't run into any issues with your choices. My getting called "sir" by strangers all the frickin' time even though my hair is long and my endowments large isn't sexist (amongst other things), but it goes to show a lot of people won't see a woman standing in front of them if the woman doesn't have a coat of paint on her face and stilts on her feet.

[Princess Artemis]

Been a bit. I'll leave this link here without making it a link because in the comments there is a lot of very justified cursing (and also because not everyone wants to read about adding attempted rape to video games). kotaku.com/5917400/youll-want-to-protect-the-new-less-curvy-lara-croft

 

This is a very good exemplar of What's Wrong. And half of what is so frustrating about it is a lot of people won't see the blatant misogyny for what it is.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Princess Artemis

[7Deadly$ins]

Typically, body-builder, musclehead male characters are not trying to appeal to women's ideas about attractiveness in men. They're usually trying to appeal to male's idealized versions of themselves.