Sexism

[Zovesta]

One thing that really struck me was, had I not been told that Rainbow Dash was supposed to be a girl, I frankly wouldn't have thought that she was one. Not from the things she likes/does etc., but because her voice really sounds like a young boy's voice. I'm not sure why they had to make the 'boyish' girl pony sound so much like a boy that if I close my eyes when listening I can really imagine a boy speaking (I believe the voice actor has even said that she uses her 'little boy' voice for her?). Couldn't they have had a girl-sounding pony with the same behaviour? Or even have one of the 'girlier' ponies have the boyish voice too? It just seems a little like it's suggesting you can't *just* be a 'normal' girl and like 'boyish' things, you've practically got to *be* a boy? 

I just want to respond to this. Maybe it's because I partly grew up with Spinelli, but she sounded like a girl to me, and not a boy whatsoever. I didn't see anything like what you're saying when I saw her. She just seemed like a typical tomboy to me.

[Kestra15]

By saying that someone is immature is judging?

Yes, it is.

[Syaoransbear]

It's a kid's show. They have to make everything very obvious to children, so if rainbow dash had a very feminine voice but was also a tomboy, I think her tomboy antics would have been lost on children or ignored. The same as if Rarity had a manly voice.

 

EDIT:

On another forum I go to a girl talked about the extremely sexist syllabus she got for her university class. This has got to be illegal. The requirements for females compared to the males is just ridiculous.

 

"I just got a syllabus for a class I signed up for in the Fall. The class is a business elective, what should be a fun interesting class, yet slightly hard.

 

I am completely at a loss for words after reading his syllabus. There is HALF A PAGE dedicated to women's appearance including the following:

 

Women must wear dress or skirt suits with heels. Flat shoes will not be accepted, nor what are commonly referred to as "wedges". They must be wrinkle free and smell nice. Women must wear makeup, whether slight or full is up to them. Hair must be clean and styled. Panty hose preferred.

 

Men must wear ironed jeans and a nice shirt.

 

THIS ISN'T A CRAIGSLIST SEX AD. IT IS A SOPHOMORE LEVEL BUSINESS CLASS that has absolutely no importance or anything to do with my major.

 

I am tempted to go ahead and drop the class and choose the same class with a different teacher that isn't ready to grade the women based on appearance.

 

In this day and age, I can't believe this is acceptable. I can understand a senior level business class or a core business class needing a dress code---but he even says women CANT wear slacks or business suits because they are masculine!"

Edited May 12, 2012 by Syaoransbear

[Fuzzbucket]

Wow. Looks like a court case coming up. I am SHOCKED.

 

Then again, one place my SO (male !) used to work (a SCHOOL, no less) they tried to enforce the wearing of ties by male staff. He acquired some VERY high class collarless shirts - of a quality the kind of person who would try and enforce something like that COULD not object to.

 

Another though, where the principal told a rather scruffy new teacher to wear a tie, the teacher turned around and said "but (my SO) doesn't wear one." "No," said the principal darkly, "but HE'S a good teacher."

(That sounds weird, but the newb couldn't control a class at all, and it was fairly obvious that his scruffiness and an attitude that went with it was a part of that...)

Edited May 12, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[Princess Artemis]

Not only is that syllabus absurdly sexist and creepy (who is going to grade how the female students smell? Is the prof going to sniff them each class?!) but it might very well run afoul for ADA. High heels are rather hard for some disabled people to wear.

[Syaoransbear]

I agree. I hope the girl pursues this and the professor gets reprimanded harshly for his requirements. This is something that would attract the news media, I think. She lives in Texas so I don't know if the media there is very interested in gender discrimination.

 

I don't even own high heels. How does the professor expect college students to be able to pay for fancy clothes, make up, hair products, styling tools, and nice shoes? At the university I go to the campus is huge, sometimes it's just impossible to make it to your class in time. I can't imagine having to walk around campus all day in high heels. Especially during winter. Those kinds of requirements would end up in lots of women with broken ankles and frost bite here.

[philpot123]

Most things that people cry "sexism!" about I just sort of chuckle at and move on. But that's ridiculous. Yeah, somebody needs to do something about that.

[Obscure_Trash]

I have always found requirements like that ridiculous, but don't a lot of businesses still require things like that - even to that extreme? Or have I just grown up around some really sexist businesses and clubs?

 

Even then...smell - wat.

Edited May 13, 2012 by SockPuppet Strangler

[7Deadly$ins]

I agree. I hope the girl pursues this and the professor gets reprimanded harshly for his requirements. This is something that would attract the news media, I think. She lives in Texas so I don't know if the media there is very interested in gender discrimination.

 

I don't even own high heels. How does the professor expect college students to be able to pay for fancy clothes, make up, hair products, styling tools, and nice shoes? At the university I go to the campus is huge, sometimes it's just impossible to make it to your class in time. I can't imagine having to walk around campus all day in high heels. Especially during winter. Those kinds of requirements would end up in lots of women with broken ankles and frost bite here.

My mother went to highschool in Texas. One of her teachers made the girls bat their eyes at him before they could leave. If they didn't, they'd get an F.

[Syaoransbear]

I have always found requirements like that ridiculous, but don't a lot of businesses still require things like that - even to that extreme? Or have I just grown up around some really sexist businesses and clubs?

 

Even then...smell - wat.

If they do, the requirements are strict for both genders. I don't think any business would force women to dress that way while letting their men wear jeans and a shirt.

 

But I don't think most businesses require women to wear make-up, high heels, have their hair styled, smell nice, or forbid women's suits or dress pants because they are too masculine.

 

My mother went to highschool in Texas. One of her teachers made the girls bat their eyes at him before they could leave. If they didn't, they'd get an F.

Ew. That is wrong on so many different levels.

[TheDragonJames]

My views on Sexism: It is a low form of insult or comedy gimic that is so overused "example would be women and relations with the kitchen". It is so obnoxious to hear everyone talk about the other gender in a stereotypical way that makes me feal bad for those in that gender actual HEAR THAT and are offended in any way.

[Kelkelen]

Women must wear dress or skirt suits with heels. Flat shoes will not be accepted, nor what are commonly referred to as "wedges". They must be wrinkle free and smell nice. Women must wear makeup, whether slight or full is up to them. Hair must be clean and styled. Panty hose preferred.

 

Men must wear ironed jeans and a nice shirt.

That can't possibly be acceptable. A whole institution is allowed to require a dress code, but surely an individual professor doesn't have license to invent his own stricter requirements.

 

Sounds like someone's trying to recreate 1959!

 

It is *absolutely* unfair to require heels. Heels are inherently damaging to the body, plus risky to walk around in, and they slow you down. You just can't force a person to wear something that's going to hurt them.

 

*What* must be wrinkle free and smell nice? The sentence as written actually refers to the shoes, but that can't be what he meant -- so, the clothing must be? Or the women? :-p

 

And it also can't be some attempt to "emulate a business atmosphere," if the men are permitted to wear jeans and polos. >_<

 

If I were in this class, I'd show up on the first day with my Tim-Burton-esque business skirt with a jagged, torn-lace hem, and knee-high black vinyl boots with 3-inch heels. Maybe full goth makeup. Hair would be clean and styled in pigtails or braids. Pantyhose would have a spiderweb pattern on them. "But it's fully in keeping with the dress code, sir!"

[Rosedamai]

Sigh. You know, the sad thing is that not only are the women subject to this, but the men who listen to this class also get to see this unfair treatment. I'm pretty sure that at least some of them will retain this sexist type of thinking, and perhaps enforce it on their own employees, students, and their children...

 

Sad for everyone. Sad.

[Princess Artemis]

If I were in this class, I'd show up on the first day with my Tim-Burton-esque business skirt with a jagged, torn-lace hem, and knee-high black vinyl boots with 3-inch heels. Maybe full goth makeup. Hair would be clean and styled in pigtails or braids. Pantyhose would have a spiderweb pattern on them. "But it's fully in keeping with the dress code, sir!"

Yes, but would you smell nice?

 

That's so frickin' creepy. Smell nice. GAH.

[Miyasha]

dobedobedo

 

"legitimate criticisms of feminism:

 

-transmisogyny and the lack of inclusion of transwomen

 

-the racist history behind it and the lack of inclusion of woc

 

-ignoring and invalidating women with disabilities

 

-pretty much anything that falls under lack of intersectionality

 

-internalized misogyny and girl hate

 

-promotion of political lesbianism

 

-radscum

 

illegitimate criticisms of feminism:

 

-a feminist was really mean to me once

 

-they’re sexist against men"

 

kinda derailing. but i don't have anything to say about mlp.

and i thought this was pretty valid.

 

note for those who balk at the political lesbianism bit: it's not talking about lesbianism, it's talking about political lesbianism.

 

It applies to all models - so that works for me. Young girls should not be modelling adult clothes anyway - it gives adults a deranged view of how they look on a grown woman.

 

Children are already sexualized enough as it is!

 

It also brings up the problem of... someone who wants to be a doctor will probably take lots of biology classes in high school, then take pre med classes in college, then go to med school.

 

Someone who wants to become a lawyer will do equivalent things to get into law school.

 

Someone who wants to be a model will probably follow the same pattern, regardless of when they are allowed to start working, and preventing them from working until they're sixteen won't change the way they treat themselves before then, if the industry doesn't change the fact that it's promoting exceptionally skinny models.

 

Which is why allowing them to work as models, but stop promoting the "models must be incredibly skinny" would be a more effective deterrent to early anorexia than "models can't work until they're sixteen".

 

Ambition of either medical or law career doesn't tend to promote/support anorexia and body-hate. Frankly, I'll be impressed when they stop photoshopping their models. My issue isn't a model who is naturally, or through methods, thin. My issue is when they alter the graphics with a computer program. That isn't even real. I don't mind that skinny models are used, as skinny is a body type... (I do wish they'd utilize more variety in body types though) but I draw the line at literally fake stuff.

 

With that said, what someone does with their body is their business. Not mine. Fat, skinny, obese, anorexic, toned, not toned, curvy, not-curvy... body policing and care-trolling is old hat. You don't have to be [insert physical description] to be a real person who deserves to be treated with respect and dignity.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Miyasha

[TikindiDragon]

illegitimate criticisms of feminism:

 

-a feminist was really mean to me once

This can be a legitimate criticism, depending on the person making it. I'm a transman, and I've had a *lot* of feminists chewing me out for "betraying my gender and being overly conditioned by the patriarchy.". Which does boild down to 'they were really mean to me'.

[Miyasha]

This can be a legitimate criticism, depending on the person making it. I'm a transman, and I've had a *lot* of feminists chewing me out for "betraying my gender and being overly conditioned by the patriarchy.". Which does boild down to 'they were really mean to me'.

I think that falls with the transmisogyny concern as general transphobia/trans-hate. At least that's how I interpret it.

 

From what I gather, it's directed more at white cis middle/upperclass men or any other group that holds privilege over women.

 

Or that an individual being hostile is not a legitimate concern because it doesn't tackle any specific issue that has been prevalent in feminism throughout generations (so therefore bringing it up when discussing the merits and pitfalls of feminism is pointless and derailing).

 

You, however, like many other transfolk, have been targeted and harassed on numerous occasions by a group. Hence where I say I think what you experience falls directly under feminism's rocky history with transfolk. Rather, I know it falls under that, but I think that is what the original author meant.

 

Oh and for your reply to my post about how "it's sexist towards women"; the people who responded after were pretty much spot on with what I was getting at. Sexism hurts and holds back everyone. I was merely pointing out that it isn't belittling just men, as it appears to be on the surface. It was merely highlighting why men or transmen are seen as inferior when they engage in "female activities". It doesn't negate the negative attitude or experiences men/transmen/male-presenting people go through when they do choose to do something largely considered feminine.

 

I did word it badly. My apologies.

 

It doesn't and shouldn't invalidate your feelings and experiences. You are hurt and oppressed by the attitude of gender roles, too.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Miyasha

[JaziandCo]

This can be a legitimate criticism, depending on the person making it. I'm a transman, and I've had a *lot* of feminists chewing me out for "betraying my gender and being overly conditioned by the patriarchy.". Which does boild down to 'they were really mean to me'.

I have also experienced this, as well as being told that they were disappointed in me for not being attracted to women and apparently felt as though my being gay and trans was spurred on by a "deep seated phobia of women". I'm not afraid of women or ladybits. They aren't my cuppa any more than they would be of a "natural" gay man.

 

I've also been told that as a transman, I "haven't experienced" their social injustices and that I'd "better not become sexist" and that I need to "stand up for my TRUE gender" after surgery. While that falls under transphobia, it's also rather sexist against men. It means they feel as though no man is capable and that every man is out to get them.

 

I have met some VERY sexist feminists and some VERY sexist transexuals in my short lifetime. No side is right, but I'd say "they were mean to me" and "they're sexist against men" can truly legitimate concerns.

[Miyasha]

When I talk about sexism (or racism), I'm referring to it as a system of oppression. Not isolated incidents, where you hear about a member of a marginalized group killing someone privileged because of their race/gender/religion/etc (even then, you can certainly expect justice for that person; while that doesn't bring back a life taken nor does it lessen the value of the life lost, marginalized people don't even get the luxury of assured knowing that should they be hurt or murdered because of their status, they will have justice like a privileged person would). So with that said...

 

Personally I'm under the belief that cis men cannot be subjected to sexism by cis women anymore than white people can be subjected to racism by POC. To me racism and sexism are a part of a system of oppression. Men are not denied basic human rights by women; women are denied basic human rights by men*. Whites are not denied basic human rights by POC; POC are denied basic human rights by whites**. They are in the position of power, culturally and institutionally.

 

*Do they all do this? No. Are they all sexist/racist? No.

** Same as above.

 

Can they be hurt, experience prejudice and discrimination? Of course. But we aren't just talking about feelings here. We're also talking about the quality of life and safety of people of marginalized groups.

 

Do cis men also suffer because of sexism in its institutional form? Yes. Going back to the example of being shamed for doing "female things".

 

As for the transfolk; you are very much male (or female), but you are part of an oppressed/marginalized group because of the fact you are trans. I am talking about cis heterosexual males when I talk about who holds the cards when it comes to sexism. As a marginalized group, you do not have the social or cultural or institutional power to hurt/subdue/control/objectify/marginalize/oppress women as a group of people.

 

Anyway.

 

Recognizing/acknowledging privilege does not make you a bad person. It makes you aware. It allows you to stop and analyze how your actions might severely and adversely affect the lives of people you have privilege over.

 

There are also varying levels of privileges and they intermix; groups experience different privileges while lacking others. Then there's intersectionality.

 

I cannot be convinced otherwise, although I'm not about to get angry if someone believes differently (nor am I going to be angry if someone believes men can be subjected to sexism by women).

 

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

 

And alternatively, http://www.wihe.com/printBlog.jsp?id=400 I suppose...

 

But right, nothing is 100% or black and white. It just heavily leans to one side.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Miyasha

[JaziandCo]

rac·ism noun \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\

 

Definition of RACISM

 

1

: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2

: racial prejudice or discrimination

 

sex·ism noun \ˈsek-ˌsi-zəm\

 

Definition of SEXISM

 

1

: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women

2

: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

 

I'm biracial, black (dad's family) and white (mom's). So it's racist when my mother's family has an issue and disowns her for marrying a black man, but not when my dad's family refuses to acknowledge my mother's existence any more than the idea that she's a nuisance? It's racist when mom's side refused to come to the wedding, but not when dad's side refused to let her (and JUST her, as the only white woman there) into a family funeral? Racism, just like sexism and other forms of discrimination, isn't just practiced by those in power. It comes from everyone, in all forms, and hurts everyone. It's no less racism for a group of black boys to attack a white kid than it was for my dad to have his notebook burned by white bullies in school.

 

On the same note, a group of girls harassing a boy is just as detrimental as a group of boys harassing a girl. It's typically seen as less violent because "boys can handle themselves", but I've seen female bullies get downright vicious with a male victim and team up on him quite quickly. I've also heard groups of women in feminist movements harassing men, men who are just walking by and likely ignoring them, about how they deserve their rights and how men are idiotic pigs and abusers. I've heard groups of my feminist friends absolutely tear down men, going to the point where they tell any male friends standing nearby that they'd "better not be like that". It's sexist. I don't like it.

[Miyasha]

 

 

I'm biracial, black (dad's family) and white (mom's). So it's racist when my mother's family has an issue and disowns her for marrying a black man, but not when my dad's family refuses to acknowledge my mother's existence any more than the idea that she's a nuisance? It's racist when mom's side refused to come to the wedding, but not when dad's side refused to let her (and JUST her, as the only white woman there) into a family funeral? Racism, just like sexism and other forms of discrimination, isn't just practiced by those in power. It comes from everyone, in all forms, and hurts everyone. It's no less racism for a group of black boys to attack a white kid than it was for my dad to have his notebook burned by white bullies in school.

 

On the same note, a group of girls harassing a boy is just as detrimental as a group of boys harassing a girl. It's typically seen as less violent because "boys can handle themselves", but I've seen female bullies get downright vicious with a male victim and team up on him quite quickly. I've also heard groups of women in feminist movements harassing men, men who are just walking by and likely ignoring them, about how they deserve their rights and how men are idiotic pigs and abusers. I've heard groups of my feminist friends absolutely tear down men, going to the point where they tell any male friends standing nearby that they'd "better not be like that". It's sexist. I don't like it.

Right.

 

But another unfortunate thing is that there are groups who DO have greater power and they use it unabashedly, with catastrophic results.

 

Feminism/feminists != Cis women.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Miyasha

[philpot123]

Personally I'm under the belief that cis men cannot be subjected to sexism by cis women anymore than white people can be subjected to racism by POC.

 

Well, you lost me there. Because white males can certainly be subjected to racism and sexism, and to claim otherwise is rather racist and sexist

[Miyasha]

Reverse racism, right? *lol* Am I a race traitor now, too?

 

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html

 

A very enlightening link.

[JaziandCo]

I've also heard groups of women in feminist movements harassing men, men who are just walking by and likely ignoring them, about how they deserve their rights and how men are idiotic pigs and abusers. I've heard groups of my feminist friends absolutely tear down men, going to the point where they tell any male friends standing nearby that they'd "better not be like that". It's sexist. I don't like it.

Nonfeminist ciswomen != women in feminist movements and my feminist buddies.

 

No one is trying to deny that there is white male privilege. But that doesn't make it right for others to be racist and sexist right back to them. Two wrongs never make a right, isn't that what they teach in kindergarten?

[philpot123]

Reverse racism, right? *lol* Am I a race traitor now, too?

 

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html

 

A very enlightening link.

There is sexism and racism on a cultural scale and there is also racism and sexism on an everyday interaction level. To claim that one or the other isn't true racism or true sexism is ignorant.