Sexism

[Obscure_Trash]

Here's the quote, slimmed down a bit:

 

"[list of all possible actions, all things women must watch] never let your guard down for a moment lest you be sexually assaulted and if you are and didn’t follow all the rules it’s your fault."

 

^ That last part was a part of the quote. Basically, if you get raped, it's because you weren't being careful and that's your fault.

 

3=

[The Evil Doer]

Here's the quote, slimmed down a bit:

 

 

 

^ That last part was a part of the quote. Basically, if you get raped, it's because you weren't being careful and that's your fault.

 

3=

Missed it, you were correct, my bad, kinda skimmed through it, thats why I said maybe I've misread it....Now it makes that part of my response slightly less relevant , but yeah there are many guys (and many women) who blame the victim, which is wrong IMO....

[Obscure_Trash]

Hey, it was a long quote. I did have to double check that after your post, wondering if I had misread it. :3

 

I agree that teaching people basic common sense and safety is a smart thing. It's just when you put that all on the victim or start victim blaming or claim that only one group should worry about it or something that it begins to defeat the purpose of doing it in the first place.

 

And yeah, there are definitely people of all genders that resort to victim blaming. 3:

[The Evil Doer]

Hey, it was a long quote. I did have to double check that after your post, wondering if I had misread it. :3

 

I agree that teaching people basic common sense and safety is a smart thing. It's just when you put that all on the victim or start victim blaming or claim that only one group should worry about it or something that it begins to defeat the purpose of doing it in the first place.

 

And yeah, there are definitely people of all genders that resort to victim blaming. 3:

Agree with everything you've said.... well, except for the 3: part, is 3: like a guy with one of those weird moustaches from 60's

Edited May 5, 2012 by The Evil Doer

[Rosedamai]

Agree with everything you've said.... well, except for the 3: part, is 3: like a guy with one of those weird moustaches from 60's

It reminded me of that...pringles guy, you know, the little man drawn on those Pringles chips?

 

Anyways, yeah and I think what's worsw in "rape culture" is at the same rime tge victim gets blamed, the perpetrator's actions get justified as well. Example: "he was drunk and couldn't control himself" or "that girl is so hot, who would not want to bang her?" stuff like that. It degraded both men and women, I find.

[KageSora]

Re: Being Careful vs. Sexist Culture Needs Warnings

 

 

 

It IS good to teach caution, I won't argue that.

 

But it's still really stacked against the females in the teaching of caution department. You don't hear parents telling their sons "Be careful what you wear, or you might get unwanted sexual attention" anywhere near as often as you hear parents telling their daughters "Be careful what you wear, or somebody might try to take advantage of you."

 

 

It is a problem that we teach our women that they need to not be raped instead of teaching our men that they should not rape. The idea of "Well, she was wearing something really revealing, how could I help myself? And she totally was flirting with me, I thought it was okay!" is a problem--too many men think that way. And I'm sure there are women who think "Well hey, he was totally acting into me" as their excuse, since rape can and does happen to people of both sexes by perpetrators of both sexes...

 

 

 

But it is still grossly unfair to females with the "caution" thing.

 

 

From personal experience...

 

My brother is allowed to stay out until 4am, but my mother gets freaked out on the few occasions I'm out past midnight--which, honestly, only happened a few times for midnight movies and one time for work, and aside from the work one they were events planned at least two weeks in advance, and the work one she knew about several hours in advance anyway (which couldn't be helped for the short notice since I was called in due to one of the workers needing to be on call for a family thing)

 

And then, it's "When you get there, CALL ME! When it's over, CALL ME! When you're leaving, CALL ME! Also, park under a light. Tell X to walk to your car with you." etc.

 

My brother gets a "Try to be home by 2, and if you're home after 4 please remember to lock up, okay?" Not 50 different points in time during his night out that he's required to call or the police will be called because "oh my god he was totally kidnapped/raped/whatever and couldn't have possibly just forgotten to call/text/phone died."

 

When I get off work at night, I have to text/call her. When I get to my car, I have to text/call her AGAIN (even if it's like 2 minutes later). My brother is told no such things--or at least, she never makes a huge deal out of it if he doesn't let her know what he's doing right away unlike if I forget and then the fury of hell is unleashed...

 

 

Thankfully we don't have the "be careful what you wear" issue since T-shirts, a jacket, and comfy pants aren't exactly the most sexy, revealing clothes... But if I did, then I'm sure I'd have that argument with her, too...

 

 

 

It's just... It's insanely unfair that as a female, I need to put so much more work into staying out of trouble while my brother, as a male, does not. And, for the record, I'm 3 years older than him, as well as certain other factors that'd make him much less responsible than me, and therefore much more likely to get himself into a troubled situation.

 

 

...I could actually go on a huge rant about how my brother gets more freedom and better treatment in some areas than I do, really, and due to my parents behavior I'm pretty sure it's because he's male.

[Fuzzbucket]

6. "We" dont come back angrily and say that, "some" men come back angrily and say that, most of the guys I know are mad only at rapists, we consider them as pathetic excuses for men, coz whoever needs to harm someone else to feel strong is nothin but a weak pathetic creature, simply put a waste of air....

 

<snip>

 

8. Its not a rape culture its being cautious, we teach the same thing our kids, as stated above, there are predators out there and women are the weaker gender so there is no other way around it really, dont think for a second that we enjoy that reality, we all have girlfriends, sisters, female friends, and even though you live it, it has an impact on us too coz everything that affects our loved ones affects us as well, and believe it or not we too have to change behaviors coz of that sad reality....

Cannot BUT point out here that MANY (male) judges fail to convict rapists, or give them a minimal sentence because

 

we all understand how hard it is to tell if a girl wants sex

or

we all know girls say no when they actually mean yes

or worse

"well you seem like a nice chap, and you're from my part of the country..." THAT was a corker... (UK; it was a while ago and I can't find the article))

or

two year sentences for two guys who raped a 10 year old and a 12 year old because the judge believed them when they said they thought the girls were over 16 (that makes rape OK, does it ?)

 

And it is perpetuating the myth to treat our children differently because of their gender. Sure - warn - BOTH genders. But the phone every half hour vs see you at breakfast is vile....

 

So is the boasting too many men do - not something women are fond of - and something that REALLY degrades both women and sexual activity.

 

Hats off to this guy. That's one REAL man.

[TikindiDragon]

I just want to point out that for the people (particularly men) who use the argument that men are victim to sexism because it's frowned upon for them to do traditionally female things, like ballet for example...

 

It's sexist to women.

 

It's frowned upon because in our culture, for a man to do something that a woman does is shameful/degrading/repulsive. Because it's for women. A man is considered to be downgrading himself, while a woman who manages to do something or wear something or whatever that is traditionally male is moving up. Not that they tend to be taken seriously.

Wow, really? Am I the only one here that feels actualy quite marginalised by this? It says to me "anything you percieve as being something that hurts you is actualy something that hurts *us*, so you still don't matter.".

[Fuzzbucket]

Wow, really? Am I the only one here that feels actualy quite marginalised by this? It says to me "anything you percieve as being something that hurts you is actualy something that hurts *us*, so you still don't matter.".

NO, I think you miss the point a bit. It is more that things thought to be women things are considered degrading to men who do them (male dancer eeeeew); things seen as men things are GREAT when women do them (WOW woman welder !!!).

 

So that men things are GOOD things and women things are weedy feeble things.

 

How does that say you don't matter ? I loves you - but if you want to dance for a living you WILL be seen as less of a man. NOT because you dance as such, but because you are acting like a WOMAN ick ick. If I take up welding, the "worst" that will happen is that I will be seen as butch - but I will NOT be seen as a lesser person - i.e. more womanly. I will be moving UPWARDS into a MALE world. That is GOOD, see. For a man to move into a woman's sphere is to lower himself.

[Obscure_Trash]

Wow, really? Am I the only one here that feels actualy quite marginalised by this? It says to me "anything you percieve as being something that hurts you is actualy something that hurts *us*, so you still don't matter.".

I was actually just confused by wording here and so didn't comment.

 

I do think it is important to recognize that sexism often isn't as black and white as we may see it.

 

I think the point was that, in the example, men doing something like ballet equates them to women, which is a bad thing and is another example of the insidiousness of sexism. However, yes, that does most certainly affect women and men in a negative way.

[Fuzzbucket]

True - and actually - men having FEELINGS is seen as womanly - and that is APPALLING and very very damaging to them and to those around them.

[The Evil Doer]

But Fuzzy, even though I think the system is indeed broken (considering the fact that only 10% of the rapes make it to the court and that victims get raped all over again by the system) and that sentence is rarely ever fitting of the crime, judges rarely ever have a say in a conviction of a rapist as thats what jury is there for (in a criminal procedure)...

 

Regarding men boasting, well I dont know where you're from but in my surroundings, women arent behind men in that aspect, and even though atm the statistics suggest that guys have twice as many partners

My Webpage statistics are biased coz of older generations, and there are many studies suggesting otherwise amongst younger generations My Webpage

 

Who really thinks that women are being upgraded by doing a male job ??

I dont think a woman is upgrading herself by being a female trucker, when I think of a female trucker I have the same stereotype of a rude, tobacco chewing, sleep deprived trucker, most of the jobs considered "male jobs" arent really an upgrade anyhow as they dont pay that much and involve hard physical work (nothing upgrading about that IMO)

Edited May 5, 2012 by The Evil Doer

[Fuzzbucket]

But Fuzzy, even though I think the system is indeed broken (considering the fact that only 10% of the rapes make it to the court and that victims get raped all over again by the system) and that sentence is rarely ever fitting of the crime, judges rarely ever have a say in a conviction of a rapist as thats what jury is there for (in a criminal procedure)...

 

Regarding men boasting, well I dont know where you're from but in my surroundings, women arent behind men in that aspect, and even though atm the statistics suggest that guys have twice as many partners

My Webpage statistics are biased coz of older generations, and there are many studies suggesting otherwise amongst younger generations My Webpage

 

Who really thinks that women are being upgraded by doing a male job ??

I dont think a woman is upgrading herself by being a female trucker, when I think of a female trucker I have the same stereotype of a rude, tobacco chewing, sleep deprived  trucker, most of the jobs considered "male jobs" arent really an upgrade anyhow as they dont pay that much and involve hard physical work (nothing upgrading about that IMO)

Judges can instruct a jury to bring in their chosen verdict, and give their legalese reasons for doing so - it SUCKS. It's a brave jury that goes against the judge's instruction, though.

 

As to the trucker thing - even the baccy-chewing ones will not be seen as having LOWERED themselves. But a male ballet dancer - well...

 

I have NEVER heard a woman boasting of the number of partners she has had. Not even on Jeremy Kyle. (which you will not be aware of, though he has now hit the US...) I HAVE heard women who are known to have had many partners to be called a slag, while a man will be called a stud....

 

ETA. I just went to have my hair cut and read the magazines. I am shocked at what some MOTHERS (oops, evil WOMEN !) put their daughters through. Which leads to news stories (if you can call them that) like this.. The girl is NINE and is dragged around beauty shows - has been for several years now; when asked what she wants to be when she grows up, she says "Miss America" as if she'd been coached (likely has) and - for instance - Mom dyed her eyelashes. Alaska didn't want it, but was told "DADDY says it will make you look pretty"..... Taught so young that what matters is making yourself look nice for MEN. And she wears makeup most days, as Mom says she looks washed out without it and she (Mom) doesn't want people to see her looking that way.

 

And there is a sexist against men side to this one: Mom is now training up her YOUNGER brother, Braxton - and HE gets to take off his Velcro'd trousers in a "sexy" dance routine.... Mom says the kids have a "normal life" outside of pageants but that they have two sets of friends, normal ones and pageant ones, as the normal ones just don't understand. TOO RIGHT.

 

For anyone who LIKES to see this stuff, there are about a zillion youtube hits on google.

Edited May 5, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[Princess Artemis]

Wow, really? Am I the only one here that feels actualy quite marginalised by this? It says to me "anything you percieve as being something that hurts you is actualy something that hurts *us*, so you still don't matter.".

That is something that strikes me as going too far afield and yes, it absolutely does marginalize men. They aren't as easy to find as feminist sites, but there are a good few sites for men who are marginalized by society at large and how difficult they find it to live in a society that is as sexist as it is. Domestic violence against men and prison rape (which is something that affects men more than women) are serious things and they often do get overlooked.

 

Given that, something sexist that hurts you (as a man) likely does hurt me in an indirect way (as a woman). Much the same way that many sexist things that hurt me (as a woman) hurt you in an indirect way (as a man).

 

This is why I am not so very fond of the term "patriarchy"--it gives the impression that it's men doing all the holding down and women getting held down, no exceptions for all the men that get held down by powerful men and women. That's not the way I see the world working, so I don't use that term.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Princess Artemis

[Rosedamai]

http://www.geekosystem.com/video-game-argument/

 

About men being told to not to do "feminine" things-I think this was an awesome example of how things do play out as to marginalize men. And I'm glad that the brother stood up against his father. It's the little boy's choice after all.

 

Just in case people can't be bothered to read the link:

 

Yesterday I had a pair of brothers in my store. One was maybe between 15-17. He was a wrestler at the local high school. Kind of tall, stocky and handsome. He had a younger brother, who was maybe about 10-12 years old. The only way to describe him was scrawny, neat, and very clean for a boy his age. They were talking about finding a game for the younger one, and he was absolutely insisting it be one with a female character. I don’t know how many of y’all play games, but that isn’t exactly easy. Eventually, I helped the brothers pick a game called Mirror’s Edge. The youngest was pretty excited about the game, and then he specifically asked me.. “Do you have any girl color controllers?” I directed him to the only colored controllers we have which includes pink and purple ones. He grabbed the purple one, and informed me purple was his FAVORITE.

 

The boys had been taking awhile, so their father eventually comes in. He see’s the game, and the controller, and starts in on the youngest about how he needs to pick something different. Something more manly. Something with guns and fighting, and certainly not a purple controller. He tries to convince him to get the new Zombie game “Dead Island.” and the little boy just stands there repeating “Dad, this is what I want, ok?” Eventually it turns into a full blown argument complete with Dad threatening to whoop his son if he doesn’t choose different items.

 

That’s when big brother stepped in. He said to his Dad “It’s my money, it’s my gift to him, if it’s what he wants I’m getting it for him, and if your going to hit anyone for it, it’s going to be me.” Dad just gives his oldest son a strong stern stare down, and then leaves the store. Little brother is crying quietly, I walk over and ruffle his hair (yes this happened all in front of me.) I say “I’m a girl, and I like the color blue, and I like shooting games. There’s nothing wrong with what you like. Even if it’s different than what people think you should.” I smile, he smiles back (my heart melts!) Big brother then leans down, kisses little brother on the head, and says “Don’t worry dude.” They check out and leave, and all I can think is how awesome big brother is, how sweet little brother is, and how Dad ought to be ashamed for trying to make his son any other way.

 

True - and actually - men having FEELINGS is seen as womanly - and that is APPALLING and very very damaging to them and to those around them.

 

Yes, this, this, this a thousand times. It completely ruins fatherhood for some people.

Edited May 5, 2012 by ylangylang

[Fuzzbucket]

ylang - that is a wonderful story. There is hope out there. And there's at least one awesome father-to-be in waiting !

 

And what is this about girl colours anyway ? I've ALWAYS favoured blue.

 

Sexism in all directions hurts all of us. The only thing is that women do tend to be MORE marginalised - no, BELITTLED - by it at its worst.

Edited May 5, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[Princess Artemis]

http://www.geekosystem.com/video-game-argument/

 

About men being told to not to do "feminine" things-I think this was an awesome example of how things do play out as to marginalize men. And I'm glad that the brother stood up against his father. It's the little boy's choice after all.

 

Just in case people can't be bothered to read the link:

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, this, this, this a thousand times. It completely ruins fatherhood for some people.

I remember reading that before, and it really is a cool story and I hope stuff like that happens a lot in regards to brothers sticking up for brothers.

 

I would indeed have a problem with someone telling me that was an instance of sexism against women though--it's a symptom of a very sexist view of women and men. It's the young men in the tale that are getting hurt!

[Fuzzbucket]

I would indeed have a problem with someone telling me that was an instance of sexism against women though--it's a symptom of a very sexist view of women and men. It's the young men in the tale that are getting hurt!

^this^

[Kelkelen]

I remember reading that before, and it really is a cool story and I hope stuff like that happens a lot in regards to brothers sticking up for brothers.

 

I would indeed have a problem with someone telling me that was an instance of sexism against women though--it's a symptom of a very sexist view of women and men. It's the young men in the tale that are getting hurt!

And that's why I think people in general need to become clearer in understanding the difference between "sexism" and "misogyny" or "misandry."

 

Usually, cultural sexism is based in misogyny, not misandry; that is, an anti-female, not an anti-male, point of view (hence men being shamed for 'lowering' themselves when they do 'feminine' things, and women praised for the opposite). However, even if people overcome or don't buy into an "anti" perspective, we're still influenced by sexism at every turn -- that is, the idea that certain things are "right" for one sex, other things are "right" for another, and if one sex does anything belonging to another one, that action is "wrong." Sexism *can* be misandrist or misogynist, but it doesn't have to be. More often, it manifests as "you're a girl so you should do girl things and shouldn't do guy things," or, as in the story with the brothers, "you're a boy so you should do boy things and shouldn't do girl things." That's not sexism "against" men or women, that's just sexism; expecting people to adhere to a preconceived notion of what is and isn't appropriate for their sex.

 

Hurts us all.

 

Awesome big brother in that incident, though!

[kiffren]

I'm just, um, gonna nudge the MLP phenomenon here.

 

I think it certainly says something about the young men in our generation. Many of them are watching a show that is meant for little girls. Not only are they watching it, but many don't even care about what other people think. I'd say it's an instance of non-sexism. I'm sure that a few get crap from their friends but others probably don't. Idk. Just something I thought of randomly.

[Princess Artemis]

I'm just, um, gonna nudge the MLP phenomenon here.

 

I think it certainly says something about the young men in our generation. Many of them are watching a show that is meant for little girls. Not only are they watching it, but many don't even care about what other people think. I'd say it's an instance of non-sexism. I'm sure that a few get crap from their friends but others probably don't. Idk. Just something I thought of randomly.

That actually is an interesting phenomenon--I have read about instances where parents have taken their young girls to see the writers/artists of MLP at a convention or some such only to have to endure the extremely belligerent attitude of some of the older male fans...I don't have the link handy, but as I recall the room full of con-going young men got smacked down by one of the MLP creators for making the young female fans feel uncomfortable being there. As I recall, the smack-down consisted of telling the belligerent guys that they had completely missed the point of the show and should consider whether or not the ponies they liked the best would really behave the way they were to the other ponies.

 

This particular instance I am thinking of was a matter of young men who are very used to having virtually everything cater to them not having a clue how to behave when the media doesn't cater to them. They were buying up all the pony toys and books and leaving nothing for the little girls to play with, drowning out the girls at the con who wanted to talk to the artists, and not seeing what the problem was. Sorta got the impression of a bunch of older teens swooping into a park, taking over the seesaw, slide, and swing, and running the toddlers off.

 

I don't think every young man who likes MLP behaves that way, but that many do actually does say something about how entitled to 'all the things' some young men feel.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Princess Artemis

[TikindiDragon]

NO, I think you miss the point a bit. It is more that things thought to be women things are considered degrading to men who do them (male dancer eeeeew); things seen as men things are GREAT when women do them (WOW woman welder !!!).

 

So that men things are GOOD things and women things are weedy feeble things.

 

How does that say you don't matter ? I loves you - but if you want to dance for a living you WILL be seen as less of a man. NOT because you dance as such, but because you are acting like a WOMAN ick ick. If I take up welding, the "worst" that will happen is that I will be seen as butch - but I will NOT be seen as a lesser person - i.e. more womanly. I will be moving UPWARDS into a MALE world. That is GOOD, see. For a man to move into a woman's sphere is to lower himself.

Eh, it read to me like it was saying that the man wasn't being a victim of sexism - the woman was. It felt, to me, like it was saying that men *can't* be the victims of sexism, because it's all about how it effects the women. So it did kinda feel like it said it doesn't matter if then men suffer because of sexism - especially as the 'it's sexist against women' bit was bolded.

 

I agree, it sucks that things are seen as bad because they're 'womanly'... but that doesn't mean that the men aren't being damaged by that attitude. The kid in ylangylang's story was *clearly* a victim, and I'd be quite worried about anyone that can read that story and go "Ugh, that was so sexist towards women!".

 

I agree with Artemis about the use of the term Patriarchy as well, incidently. Especially as a lot of contexts I've seen it used in imply that *all* men are the problem.

 

Funnily enough the whole concept also ties in quite tightly with homophobia. Because some people will see you as being less of a man for being gay. And I'm pretty certain that very few people would say homophobia is an example of sexism towards women (although, in the case of lesbians, it could be both). Yes the root cause of homophobia has a lot to do with gay men being seen as being more 'womanly', but that sure as all heck doesn't means it's the way women are viewed that's the major problem. Or that (striaght, cis) women are the ones being damaged by it.

 

Incidently, guys, I am quite hungover. So if I'm not making much sense I do apologise.

[Fuzzbucket]

You make perfect sense and I think you are PERFECTLY LOVELY And if sexism has got to you - then that is JUST as bad as it getting to me.

[Princess Artemis]

Funnily enough the whole concept also ties in quite tightly with homophobia. Because some people will see you as being less of a man for being gay. And I'm pretty certain that very few people would say homophobia is an example of sexism towards women (although, in the case of lesbians, it could be both). Yes the root cause of homophobia has a lot to do with gay men being seen as being more 'womanly', but that sure as all heck doesn't means it's the way women are viewed that's the major problem. Or that (striaght, cis) women are the ones being damaged by it.

Yeah, exactly. Just because cultural misogyny (as Kelkelen pointed out!) is one of the roots of this doesn't mean it's sexism against women. It really, really isn't. Lessening cultural misogyny would help, as addressing the roots of problems tend to do, but...yeah.

 

(Incidentally, I really need a better word than "homophobia" to describe this. I'm absolutely not going to use words to describe a phenomenon like this that help contribute to the exact same cultural phenomenon that the mentally ill have to deal with. So, anyone have any ideas? Such as cissexism instead of transphobia...)

 

ETA: You're making perfect sense to me and I hope your hangover was worth it : )

Edited May 5, 2012 by Princess Artemis

[Fuzzbucket]

(Incidentally, I really need a better word than "homophobia" to describe this.  I'm absolutely not going to use words to describe a phenomenon like this that help contribute to the exact same cultural phenomenon that the mentally ill have to deal with.  So, anyone have any ideas?  Such as cissexism instead of transphobia...)

Anti-gay prejudice works for me

 

And for other orientations, plain PREJUDICE, or bigotry gets through to offenders

 

Collecting loads of words just confuse anyway - half the time you only end up having to explain.... Just say "You are being a bigot and I don't have to listen to this..."

Edited May 5, 2012 by fuzzbucket