Sexism

[Syaoransbear]

I do agree so much.  You can't whine about sexism then demand special treatment because of your sex.

I think when some women say they want 'equality' they mean that they want women to be the more powerful gender for an equal amount of time as men have been to even up the score .

[elderberrysyrup]

I once heard someone say a while ago, and I'm not saying I agree, but he made a good point...

 

If women want to be treated equally, and cripe at men about how they (meaning men) treat them like subserviants(sp?), then women don't get mad when a man asks you to fix your own d*mn car.

 

I'm a girl and I just couldn't help but laugh at that .

lol what's the problem with asking when you don't know how to do something? That's like getting pissed at a woman who won't cook/clean for you if you don't know how to do it, it's same thing...

[Infinis]

This is kind of hilarious because in my life experience, in general, men are more likely to get worked up over children being hurt or sick than women are. Some of us may be nicer about thinking someone is just being a baby, but that doesn't mean that we're going to rush them to the doctor. x3

I've kind of noticed this too. When my brother gets hurt/hurts himself, he makes a HUGE deal out of it, lol, whereas I'm perfectly happy to leave my cuts and scrapes and cat scratches out to the open air. I can't remember the last time I actually used a bandaid on a cut. |D

 

Did you know that the huge majority of playboy models have a BMI in the underweight or anorexic weight category, even WITH the weight of their huge fake breasts/butts? Men do want us at an unhealthy weight, they just have no idea what an unhealthy weight looks like for a woman.

 

I've never understood the sex appeal of Playboy playmates and really thin girls like that (as a fair comparison, I also don't understand the sex appeal of overly muscular men or overly thin men). Seeing the ribs through the skin is wrong and unnatural. DX I have a friend who has a ridiculously high metabolic rate who can't seem to gain weight (and she can out-eat a LOT of people) - and she WANTS to gain weight.

 

If women want to be treated equally, and cripe at men about how they (meaning men) treat them like subserviants(sp?), then women don't get mad when a man asks you to fix your own d*mn car.

 

I love this phrase so much even though I don't know how to fix a car or even air up a tire. |D

[KageSora]

I must be missing something. I didn't know it was rude to ask someone to help fix your car. If you do ask a friend, what's wrong with a simple "no," "I don't know how," or "I don't have the time"? And in fact, the only women I know who bothers a man to do things like change the oil in her car is my mother to my father, because she does other things for him (like cook and clean) and it's a common courtesy for him to return the favor in some way.

I don't think it's meant to be taken literally, just an example of typical stereotypes relating to sex--like how the women are always portrayed as not knowing how to fix a car, just as an example.

 

 

I always get my dad to look at my car or more often I take it to the shop if something seems off or the oil needs changing because I don't know how to do it myself--about all I can do is change the wiper fluid! Not because I'm a girl and my dad's a guy, but my dad knows more about it than I do, and I'm just terrible at trying to learn that sort of thing.

 

 

However, if there's an electronic device that's not working right, both my brother and my father (and mom, too) bring it right to me/call or text me about it to see if I know what's wrong. Even if I can't fix it myself, I can usually pinpoint what the problem is or at least where the problem is originating. And often enough if I tinker with it a little I can get it working again, at least well enough to last until it can be looked at by a professional.

 

 

 

I think when some women say they want 'equality' they mean that they want women to be the more powerful gender for an equal amount of time as men have been to even up the score .

That would most certainly not surprise me one bit.

Edited April 27, 2012 by KageSora

[Kelkelen]

I am interested in another thing, how come you dont think guys are used in a same manner like women ? Are you really unaware of millions of women who want brad pitt, leonardo, all those new guys from twillight movies all with their six abs ? Im serioulsy asking coz whenever I catch a movie I see a bunch of hot guys and hot girls who cant really act, but who get the parts coz of their looks, you dont see that on tv ?

Its really hard to find a tv show where not all girls and guys are hot, matter of fact almost impossible if you ask me, do you really only see hot girls in all those ?

I absolutely agree that both movies and TV are populated with impossible ideals of beauty -- but I believe that more often, it's women who are objectified and sexualized, while the men are more often just handsome beyond the norm, without being treated as sex objects and without being unhealthily skinny or conforming to a single ideal of body type, face shape, and sexual availability.

 

I took a long time to look through some of the most popular TV shows and find examples of what I mean, and I've typed commentary for each image. I did find a lot of shows that seemed to have several guys who weren't "hot," while all the women were.

 

Also, please note that I am NOT saying that "all men are sexist pigs who are oppressing women" or anything of the sort. I'm only trying to point out a trend in the media so that you understand why I say that women are hypersexualized to a point that men are not. Men are held to other unfair standards, often, such as being expected to be strong and stoic and not cry and always know what to do and take charge and not indulge in anything too "feminine" such as art or poetry or singing. I believe that attitude absolutely hurts men. However, men's portrayal in advertising, TV, and movies is just nowhere near as constantly sexualized and objectified as women's portrayal.

 

I'm also not saying you're a bad person or you're sexist for simply living in the same world as this stuff. I'm only discussing it because the more people who are aware of it and the more quickly and easily we can recognize it, the better. And even small steps help -- if a show or magazine is sexist, don't support it. Or don't endorse those aspects of it. Think critically about its forms of humor and its characterization. Don't laugh at jokes about hoping to get a woman drunk so she'll have sex with the male character. Don't mistake TV for how the world works. Realize all the ideas floating around out there that your mother, sister, daughter, friend, all the females in your life are faced with daily, and give them a positive example to counteract the constant barrage of sexism. Help arm the women around you to defend themselves against negative cultural attitudes. All of those things help -- you're not helpless. And if you already do those things, then that's just really great!

 

Edited April 27, 2012 by Kelkelen

[Nine]

I'm a bit neutral since I've seen both sides of the issue.  I'm a woman who was a Marine for five years.  I went to Afghanistan twice.  My guys respected me.  I wasn't the strongest, but I didn't shy away from work and did my darnedest to get equal treatment.  Didn't always happen since some guys are just caught up in the mindset that they need to help women, but I tried to prevent that as much as possible.  They were also the types who seemed to think that it was nigh on treason to let a female live, even in the field, without a physical quarters and set aside sanitation resource buildings.  Drove me nuts.  I also never shied away from raunchy and inappropriate humor.  It oddly works as a bonding ritual in the military.  It's completely politically incorrect, but everyone in your shop is fair game and gets it equally.  I also never got offended or complained about it, and I think they appreciated that.

 

There were plenty of women like me that I served with, but there were also our polar opposites.  Definitely didn't correspond to size or femininity, either.  Some women would use their sex appeal to get unequal treatment, would try to get out of living in the dirt on ops with the guys, got offended at every little thing (and were often the most vocal about sexism ironically enough), and seemed to be of the opinion that they weren't obligated to do any real physical exertion due to their gender.  They also tended to be the types who slept around, and then got offended at the inevitable results.  It isn't fair since guys get kudos for similar behavior, but I think the difference is many of these women would do this within the unit and/or barracks which is a nightmare for the workplace.

 

So I've seen both sides.  What I get irritated at is the politicization of the issue, often by representatives of both sides who have no concept of the underlying issue whatever the slant.  Or those who champion the ludicrous statistic that 1 in 3 women get raped in the military, and that somehow most of these get covered up in some magical legal/medical/news triad that would put CIA and MI6 to shame.

Reading about how you did your part and fit in with the guys, that made me happy to read-- thank you for sharing =) That's the kind of attitude that needs to be put on a higher pedestal, one where women don't want to be treated less than men but also not more than them. And the whole inappropriate joke thing, it's so true. You take your jabs and you dish it out, and even if it gets annoying and offensive at times, taking it in stride is like saying, "Hey, you stepped over the line there but we're still cool." Also, you can always get them back later lol.

 

There's just something attractive (mentally, not in a sexual way) about a woman who shows how --despite being in stressful and exhausting situations like the military, law enforcement, medicine, etc.-- she doesn't need special treatment to match up to men. Or even surpass them.

[Obscure_Trash]

Wow, excellent pic, Kelkelen. I will say that Big Bang Theory did add two girls to the core cast (both in relationships with male main characters, though). One of whom is shorter than the shortest guy there and the other who is supposed to be quite plain and wears things like sweater vests. I couldn't find a picture with them with the rest of the main cast (perhaps too new for a photo; it's hard to keep track when I only catch it when at home or 3 min snippits on youtube):

And, as much as I love it, Friends would be one that fit right in with the rest of those pictures.

 

I always get my dad to look at my car or more often I take it to the shop if something seems off or the oil needs changing because I don't know how to do it myself--about all I can do is change the wiper fluid! Not because I'm a girl and my dad's a guy, but my dad knows more about it than I do, and I'm just terrible at trying to learn that sort of thing.

 

I know how to change my oil, filter, washer fluid, and tire, as well as jump the car, check the oil, check tire pressure, fill up the tires, and replace various parts in my car. =p

When my friends and I started driving, my dad was kind enough to do a class for us all in which we did most all of that or learned how to. (Oil I learned when my oil needed replaced. My dad does it for the rest of the cars anyway because it's cheaper, but I refused to not learn when the time came up.)

Glad you're the tech wizard in your family. :3

Edited April 28, 2012 by SockPuppet Strangler

[Syaoransbear]

When you look at those pictures you can see a wide variety of men are represented. Attractive men, unattractive men, young men, old men, bald men, men of all different weights and builds and heights, men with glasses, men with facial hair, men without, etc. With women it's the same cookie cutter appearance for all of them. The lack of diversity is the reason why so many women have so much trouble with their self esteem. When every woman on TV looks absolutely perfect and similar, it makes you feel like there's something horribly wrong with you if you don't look like that.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Syaoransbear

[TikindiDragon]

I saw that most of those pictures mentioned the clothing - and I would like to point out here that many, if not most, of the woman I know would *choose* to wear clothes like that anyway. I can't say I think it's an example of ingrained sexism to show characters wearing what the average woman on the streets seems to choose to wear. I note that several of them are wearing trousers. And, again, w/ragrds hairstyles - I actually see a *lot* more variation in the women there than I do in the men. And if you walk down the stree you *do* see a lot of women with long hair. That's not sexism, it's just reflecting *life*.

 

Look at the men - in all but Lost their hair is neat, trimmed and styled. (Where they have hair, anyway. A shaved head is quite common. Doubt any of you would think it realistic for a woman to do the same). Facial hair, where it exists, is also very neat and trimmed - goatees and designer stubble. No men looking like they've simply failed to shave for a week, and no big beards. No men with large amounts of body hair - because obviously that doesn't happen. Noses all straight - no upturns, no roman noses, no looking like they've had a good go at breaking it when they were younger (not uncommon in RL). Unusually high proportions of suits and button up shirts - something women (I'm told) think men look good in, but not the kind of thing most of us would choose to wear outside of work. Note the large number of men pictured with a hand just tucked into a pocket - not a natural or comfortable way of standing, it's done to emphasise the groin area. No rounding of shoulders either - everyone is standing with their shoulder's back to emphasise broad chests.

 

Besides - I'm pretty certain that if there was a show where the entire female cast fell into the overweight/not good looking/dressed in comfortable baggy stuff categories there'd be just as much outcry over how women are being put down and made to look as if they can't add up to anything. And/or over how unrepresentative it is of actual women.

 

TV shows aren't realistic. We all know that. And they're pretty much as unrealistic for men as they are for women, although admittedly in different ways. Personally I think the photos analysing how unrealistic the pictures are of women, while ignoring that they're actually pretty unrealistic of the men too, is rather one sided. I think we all just need to agree that media role-modles suck for everyone and move on.

 

Edited to add: To *you* the men may all look different, but you're looking at different things to the things men are looking at. I've got to say that to *me* the fact that all the men, regardless of age or race, have pretty much the same hairstyle, are wearing the same things, and have the same shaven/well-trimmed face and lack of body hair look says "If you don't keep yourself groomed like this, and dress like this then you'll never add up[ to anything. And you'll have to do that for your entire life because otherwise no one will be interested.". To me, as a male (brian, anyway) I see the way the women are dressed and styled and I think "Wow, you've got so much more choice in what you wear, so much more freedom to express yourself.". So, yeah, men and women see different things in those pictures, and just because it looks to you guys like the men are more respected doesn't mean it looks that way to us.

Edited April 28, 2012 by TikindiDragon

[Zovesta]

While I mostly agree with TikindiDragon, I do feel that there is a bit more variation when it comes to men. u__u But people will * about anything. I'm just asking for more funny women whose jokes don't rely on being a sarcastic *, is that too much to ask?

[Fuzzbucket]

I know how to change my oil, filter, washer fluid, and tire, as well as jump the car, check the oil, check tire pressure, fill up the tires, and replace various parts in my car. =p

When my friends and I started driving, my dad was kind enough to do a class for us all in which we did most all of that or learned how to. (Oil I learned when my oil needed replaced. My dad does it for the rest of the cars anyway because it's cheaper, but I refused to not learn when the time came up.)

Glad you're the tech wizard in your family. :3

Right on. In THIS house, I am the one asked to sort IT tech issues. I can change my own wheels and oil and so on (I don't LIKE doing these days - but that's because I am 67 years old and the wheel thing hurts !)

 

A lot of this "get the guy to sort it" is ingrained from stereotypes - and I realise it is changing - but very slowly. TV doesn't help - and it isn't all appearance; I care rather less about that (though when someone - a man, most recently - tells me that I am "lucky" to have held on to a good-looking man, I do get mildly pissed off.)

 

MANY years ago, I took my car in to be serviced. It then started to behave very oddly, so I took the engine apart some and then phoned the garage in a rage to point out that what they had left unhitched could have wrecked the valves and tappets (be impressed.... !) and that I was now demanding that they strip the engine down to check. They were not pleased, and said maybe I was imagining it and - wait for it - I might like to ask my husband to take a look When I then started to discuss the vacuum advance and exactly where they had left it hanging, they became slightly more respectful, and offered to do as I asked. After four hours work, they had me by the service deck and said there would be no charge. I said I should *** think not given that it was their error (much to the startlement of the men in the room who were waiting to pay...) Whenever I took the car in after that, they had the head mechanic service it

 

When my daughter phoned her garage to say she had broken her gear shift lever (she is short (see other threads !!) but STRONG !) they said there there, it was probably just unscrewed... She was - rather rude - and took it in. They said "Well, b**** me it's sheared right off." "Told you," she said.

 

These are both sexism in action, in people's perceptions saying that we weedy women don't know cars.

 

On the other hand - I now have a LOVELY mechanic who is sort of new man-ish. He prefers me to many of his male customers. BECAUSE - men go in (he says this; I didn't !) and say something like "there is a noise in the front shocks - please replace them." So he will do what they ask, and the noise will still be there and they will be cross and he will have done exactly what they asked him to.

I (and most women, he says) go in and say "there is a grinding sort of noise when I corner; I THINK it is front left; can you take it out on the road and find out what it is and fix it." I usually get mine actually fixed for £25; the men spend heaps having things done that needn't have been. Because - he says - HE SAYS ! - men feel they have to know about cars, and they DON'T.

 

This is sexism too. Men feeling they have to be this way.

 

BUT - these stereotypes come from the way we are all portrayed, as much as anything. Which is why we need to make a fuss about all that. All of us. To save us all from people like my daughter's husband who is so bad at DIY that she, who is good at it - will not allow him to use her tools any more after he hammered a nail into a water pipe and had to hold his thumb over it (at 2 am ) till an emergency plumber could be found (because they had just moved in and at this point she (SHE) discovered the hard way that the stopcock was firmly seized up...)

 

We all need to be judged as PEOPLE, with our own looks and talents and strengths and weaknesses, not what others expect of people of our gender. And we need TV and ads and everything to recognise that.

Edited April 28, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[Kelkelen]

Wow, excellent pic, Kelkelen. I will say that Big Bang Theory did add two girls to the core cast (both in relationships with male main characters, though).

I spent a long time looking for a cast shot that included them, to no avail! I will say that they seem to be outside of the cookie-cutter mold, visually, which is nice. However, they are apparently only on the show to be love interests -- I guess shaking it up from a show whose main plot is essentially about 4 rather mean guys all wanting to have sex with the same girl.

 

And, @TikindiDragon, which photos of men did you think actually emphasized the groin area? I agree that Jack and Sayid in the "Lost" photo have rather "crotchy" stances, but they're the only two that I can see. The hand-in-pocket pose doesn't emphasize the crotch, in my opinion; the crotch is still flat and half-hidden, shadowed, while the visual effect is to open up the figure by creating negative space between the arm and body, and to add folds to the fabric. I think the men's facial hair is varied; though you're right, no one has a big n' wild beard -- still, there are goatees, full beards, stubble, and clean-shaven, so that's a fair amount of variety. I don't know what you mean by 'designer stubble' as opposed to stubble; plus, I'd like to point out that during the run of a show (rather than just the promo photos), male characters often go through more stubbly phases. The men's hair is anywhere from bald to balding to buzz-cut to crew-cut to ear-length to chin-length to past-the-shoulders, and I see both short curly and bushy curly.

 

Regarding haircuts for women, let me rephrase that: there are no women with seriously short hair. None. Short as in anywhere from shaven to ear-length; maybe it's too "mannish" for TV? They also don't have curly hair, ever, unless they are black or hispanic. And no one has hairy legs.

 

Also, how many men are showing off their legs? Anyone in shorts, even in L.A. or on a tropical island? I do think the business suits make sense in photos for shows that are about people in the workplace; Mad Men, for example, is all about business executives in an advertising firm, and has a lot to do with the rigid expectations of the time. But there's no reason why the show couldn't have included, for example, an older woman in its core cast, or a woman who was not likely to have plots centering around her romantic relationships with the men.

 

The men absolutely have a wider range of acceptable weights and body types. To me, that really stands out. If all of the men were stick-thin and underweight, the images would look a lot different than they do now.

 

Re: noses: the two men in the back left on Mad Men have round, upturned noses (you can see into the nostrils). Several guys have nice broad noses, especially the hispanic and black ones (I don't see this trend in hispanic and black women; maybe they all had nose jobs?). Roman noses you can't really see well from the front, but the old guy in Law and Order, Sayid and Locke on Lost, the lawyer guy on How I Met Your Mother, at least one of the guys on Big Bang Theory, and probably a few more have strong roman noses. Sarah Jessica Parker and Mayim Bialik are the only women who seem to have a prominent nose that they haven't operated on (to my knowledge). And everyone notices that as their distinctive feature because it is SO unusual among actresses.

 

Agreed agreed agreed, TV isn't a good place for role models in general. My main point, though, was that women are sexualized and objectified much more than men, and conform to a much narrower ideal of beauty, which I do think is evident in the photos (see the Gossip Girl ones, for instance; the men are very cookie-cutter, but they're still treated less as sex objects -- not showing a lot of skin, not being held or fondled, not gesturing as if they're opening their clothing). Doesn't mean that Hollywood isn't an image of false 'perfection' all around, but men seem to have a wider and less sexually-themed range of what counts as 'perfection.'

Edited April 28, 2012 by Kelkelen

[Shienvien]

I agree on the female haircuts. I know plenty of women who, in real life, have short hair - the inch or two-three long kind. Yet, none of the women in the posted pictures have a pixie cut.

[Fuzzbucket]

I agree on the female haircuts. I know plenty of women who, in real life, have short hair - the inch or two-three long kind.

Me, for one

[TikindiDragon]

@ Kelkelen - nice of you to completely dismiss everything I've said. I was trying to point out that the way men percieved those pictures would be different to the things you percieved in them - and that we'll see things as being unrealistic from our points of view. You've, pretty much, just told me that my perception of it is rubbish and that you can't see anything there I can.

 

Nice.

[Nectaris]

Regarding haircuts for women, let me rephrase that: there are no women with seriously short hair. None. Short as in anywhere from shaven to ear-length; maybe it's too "mannish" for TV? They also don't have curly hair, ever, unless they are black or hispanic. And no one has hairy legs.

 

I can point out one show with a woman with very short hair, Mary Margaret from Once Upon a Time. She is one of the main characters as well(she is Snow White in the fairy tale world).

 

[Fuzzbucket]

I can point out one show with a woman with very short hair, Mary Margaret from Once Upon a Time. She is one of the main characters as well(she is Snow White in the fairy tale world).

 

Sorry - that is NOT very short.

 

OMG. Just went googling to find a PROPERLY short haired woman, and the first thing you get is loads of links to "why I would never date a woman with short hair..." and "not so short as to be unattractive" and the like. CHARMING !

 

Even this: is a little longer than mine. And she's GORGEOUS.

 

Almost all the images that come up are MUCH longer than mine; there is ONE that is shorter but "spoiled" by a skinny pigtail:

 

- and she looks pretty good too. IMHO. Men, what think you ?

[Nectaris]

Sorry - that is NOT very short.

 

 

Does it have to be incredibly short for it be considered different though? It is still different from the norm, which surely counts for something.

[7Deadly$ins]

Yeah... I would still consider that original picture to be short.

[Fuzzbucket]

Does it have to be incredibly short for it be considered different though? It is still different from the norm, which surely counts for something.

The NORM ?

 

Now that is a strange way to put it. I don't consider my hair to be anything outside the norm. Hair is hair. NO hair (as in never growing any !!) is not the norm.

 

But someone said that Mary Margaret's hair was very short and so some very short hair DOES show up on TV in a positive character. I don't happen to agree, is all. Show me a woman with REALLY short hair portrayed positively on TV ... (OK OK Sinead O'Connor, but you know what I mean !) And the number of google hits that refer to "not so short as to be unattractive" says it all in terms of what is perceived as "OK short" and what is - not. Now, a man with long hair is generally admired for it. (as long as it's clean...)

[Packgoater]

The NORM ?

 

Now that is a strange way to put it. I don't consider my hair to be anything outside the norm. Hair is hair. NO hair (as in never growing any !!) is not the norm.

 

But someone said that Mary Margaret's hair was very short and so some very short hair DOES show up on TV in a positive character. I don't happen to agree, is all. Show me a woman with REALLY short hair portrayed positively on TV ... (OK OK Sinead O'Connor, but you know what I mean !) And the number of google hits that refer to "not so short as to be unattractive" says it all in terms of what is perceived as "OK short" and what is - not. Now, a man with long hair is generally admired for  it. (as long as it's clean...)

At least in the poorly-minded area I live in, women with that short of hair who are younger than forty are odd. In my area, short hair isn't accepted in the younger ages, at least for girls. Most females that have this short hair are labeled "lesbian" in my area, which of course is stupid, makes no sense, and is completely offensive.

When I had my hair a good bit longer than Mary Marget's, I was stereotyped and labeled too for having short hair. Maybe I just live in a suckish area.

 

It's not necessarily super short hair, but on TV, it is out of the norm. There are few other women who are portrayed as both strong female characters who have short hair and also as beautiful women.

 

There's Melissa Mcbride from Walking Dead. This show has several strong female characters, some of which who directly bring up how sexist some things can be. Like Angela, who is told to hang back in the house and help out there. She refuses, calls out the other woman for being sexist, and continues doing what she's done before -protecting the camp/farm/place from zombies.

 

I definitely hate how men can be a bit thick around the waist and it's accepted, but if a woman is, she's called a 'sow.' I myself am thin, but some people around my area aren't. Everyone's fine with the men, but with the women it's looked down upon.

[Kelkelen]

@ Kelkelen - nice of you to completely dismiss everything I've said. I was trying to point out that the way men percieved those pictures would be different to the things you percieved in them - and that we'll see things as being unrealistic from our points of view. You've, pretty much, just told me that my perception of it is rubbish and that you can't see anything there I can.

 

Nice.

@TikindiDragon, which photos of men did you think actually emphasized the groin area? I agree that Jack and Sayid in the "Lost" photo have rather "crotchy" stances, but they're the only two that I can see....I think the men's facial hair is varied; though you're right, no one has a big n' wild beard....I don't know what you mean by 'designer stubble' as opposed to stubble....

Re: noses: the two men in the back left on Mad Men have round, upturned noses (you can see into the nostrils). Several guys have nice broad noses, especially the hispanic and black ones (I don't see this trend in hispanic and black women; maybe they all had nose jobs?). Roman noses you can't really see well from the front, but the old guy in Law and Order, Sayid and Locke on Lost, the lawyer guy on How I Met Your Mother, at least one of the guys on Big Bang Theory, and probably a few more have strong roman noses.

 

Agreed agreed agreed, TV isn't a good place for role models in general. My main point, though, was that women are sexualized and objectified much more than men, and conform to a much narrower ideal of beauty, which I do think is evident in the photos (see the Gossip Girl ones, for instance; the men are very cookie-cutter, but they're still treated less as sex objects -- not showing a lot of skin, not being held or fondled, not gesturing as if they're opening their clothing). Doesn't mean that Hollywood isn't an image of false 'perfection' all around, but men seem to have a wider and less sexually-themed range of what counts as 'perfection.'

 

What did I say in that last paragraph that made you think I totally dismissed your point and thought that it was rubbish? I'm really, truly sorry if it came off that way. Please don't get sarcastic with me -- I wasn't in any way desiring to be mean, and I'm sorry if I said something offensive!

 

I tried to reply to specific things you'd said, and I do agree with your overall point that the men in TV shows tend to look very well-groomed and unnaturally 'flawless,' issues of weight and amount of hair aside. I asked you a couple of questions, because I really didn't know why you thought the stubble some characters had "didn't count," or which photos you thought emphasized the groin area. I mentioned specific examples of things that *did* counter what you said, such as the men's nose types or facial hair, because those were factual things in the pictures, but I wasn't trying to tell you that how you *feel* about the images is wrong; only that yeah, some guys have stubble, roman noses, a bit of extra fat, or a receding hairline. But of course the image of men on TV is still often one of constantly impeccable grooming and clothing, and of course it's an unrealistic standard to live up to. My main point was just that women are portrayed as and encouraged to be sex objects, with one specific acceptable body type. Men are given a broader range of possible appearances, and they are usually less sexualized. That doesn't in any way mean that men aren't given unnatural standards of beauty by the media.

 

 

Does it have to be incredibly short for it be considered different though?  It is still different from the norm, which surely counts for something.

 

@fuzzbucket, I'm pretty sure Nectaris meant "the norm for female characters on TV shows," there. And @Nectaris -- yeah, I do think it counts. It's not super-short, but every other female TV character I've seen has *at least* chin-length hair. I know so many women, older, younger, even girls who have quite short hair, but it's definitely not standard on TV. Nice to see Snow White as a bit of a change!

 

@Packgoater -- Hey! That Melissa McBride has some serious short hair! And it's even greying! Very, very nice to see!

Edited April 28, 2012 by Kelkelen

[Fuzzbucket]

At least in the poorly-minded area I live in, women with that short of hair who are younger than forty are odd. In my area, short hair isn't accepted in the younger ages, at least for girls. Most females that have this short hair are labeled "lesbian" in my area, which of course is stupid, makes no sense, and is completely offensive.

OOh ooh I am so lesbian.

 

NOT ! (not that I have anything against lesbians and some of my very best friends really are, but I have been happily married for 47 years this year, so....) Mine has been this short since - I forget when actually; it was very short when I was 20, wasn't for a while, and has been now for - ages....

 

Tell me - can long haired women then be anything other than straight ?? WEIRD.

[TikindiDragon]

 

What did I say in that last paragraph that made you think I totally dismissed your point and thought that it was rubbish?  I'm really, truly sorry if it came off that way.  Please don't get sarcastic with me -- I wasn't in any way desiring to be mean, and I'm sorry if I said something offensive!

 

I tried to reply to specific things you'd said, and I do agree with your overall point that the men in TV shows tend to look very well-groomed and unnaturally 'flawless,' issues of weight and amount of hair aside.  I asked you a couple of questions, because I really didn't know why you thought the stubble some characters had "didn't count," or which photos you thought emphasized the groin area.  I mentioned specific examples of things that *did* counter what you said, such as the men's nose types or facial hair, because those were factual things in the pictures, but I wasn't trying to tell you that how you *feel* about the images is wrong; only that yeah, some guys have stubble, roman noses, a bit of extra fat, or a receding hairline.  But of course the image of men on TV is still often one of constantly impeccable grooming and clothing, and of course it's an unrealistic standard to live up to.  My main point was just that women are portrayed as and encouraged to be sex objects, with one specific acceptable body type.  Men are given a broader range of possible appearances, and they are usually less sexualized.  That doesn't in any way mean that men aren't given unnatural standards of beauty by the media.

It was more all the pointing out that 'no, this is why you're wrong' (or at least that's how it came across) that I was objecting to. Kinda made me feel that my perceptions of things were largely being dismissed.

 

I'd have a hard time answering you're question about arms positions and emphasis because, well, I don't watch any of the shows so I don't know what the characters are called, and with the exceptions of David Boreanaz and David Tenant I can't name any of the actors either. I can try if you like, but the attempts to identify them may be a little fumbling

 

W/regards designer stubble... basically beard hair doesn't ncesarily grow in the lovely even fashion you'll see on some of those actors. It can grow a little patchy, and it'll certainly look pretty rough. For stubble to look the way it looks in those pictures it has to be maintained - trimmed daily, with an electric razor on a certain setting, to keep it at precisely the right length.

 

Edited to add: Fuzz, isn't that second picture Annie Lennox? Always thought she was gorgeous. I confess I never did think buzz cuts suited the female face all that well, though.

Edited April 28, 2012 by TikindiDragon

[Kelkelen]

It was more all the pointing out that 'no, this is why you're wrong' (or at least that's how it came across) that I was objecting to. Kinda made me feel that my perceptions of things were largely being dismissed.

 

I'd have a hard time answering you're question about arms positions and emphasis because, well, I don't watch any of the shows so I don't know what the characters are called, and with the exceptions of David Boreanaz and David Tenant I can't name any of the actors either. I can try if you like, but the attempts to identify them may be a little fumbling

 

W/regards designer stubble... basically beard hair doesn't ncesarily grow in the lovely even fashion you'll see on some of those actors. It can grow a little patchy, and it'll certainly look pretty rough. For stubble to look the way it looks in those pictures it has to be maintained - trimmed daily, with an electric razor on a certain setting, to keep it at precisely the right length.

Aw, I really am sorry it came off that way. I tried to point out spots where I agreed with you so it wouldn't seem like a flat-out rejection of your POV. I definitely think the idea that guys are unrealistic hotties on TV is valid.

 

Oddly, I think "Lost" might be *the* worst example here, despite the whole idea that they're all dirty plane crash victims. They sure had a lot of supermodels on that plane! They also managed to scrounge a lot of trendy, form-fitting clothing from the wreckage! And I see what you mean about stubble, now -- the guys' stubble on Lost seems to be carefully controlled. I see a couple of stubbly guys on Heroes, and on Desperate Housewives, but it does look like, in general, men never go two-three days without shaving in "TV Reality," unlike in real life.

 

Oh, no worries about the shows. I don't watch most of them, and I don't know actors' or characters' names very often. (Hence things like me going on about "the second woman from the right" in the "Dexter" cast photo.) I just didn't see a lot of "package shots" -- except for, again, on "Lost." Hmm...