Posted April 26, 2012 Who is dismissing you ? To answer that: Fuzzy, you should much less concentrate on me not getting things but a bit more on looking at yourself first, coz me when I see sexism towards women I call it the way it is, sexism towards women, you on the other hand, when you see sexism towards men your response is lack of it and going back to sexism towards women, coz basically, when you see sexism towards men, it just doesnt bug you, matter of fact Im pretty sure that deep down you're actually kinda thrilled to see it... "I recognize reality, while you choose to ignore it, because you are secretly thrilled to see anti-male sexism." = dismissive/belittling/insulting. Yeah, its horrible how guys are portrayed in commercials, I feel sick rolleyes.gif but yeah, do discuss how sexism is horrible towards men in commercials and how we're all supposed to look like captain America, work out be athletic, successful or we'll be called scrubs and get thrown out like a common trash.... Ohh wait, my bad... its not one of those threads, carry on tongue.gif sarcasm + "naturally," none of you care about anti-male sexism (despite many people's statements to the contrary) + "oh, we're talking about WOMEN, not men. AGAIN." = dismissive/belittling/insulting. I post 7 sexist videos towards guys and your response to it is... well girls girls girls girls... "Why are we still talking about women?" and "Stop talking about what you want to talk about and talk about what I want to talk about!" = dismissive/belittling/insulting no chaotic outrageous reactions from you guys (wonders why) sarcasm + "You only care about yourselves." = dismissive/belittling/insulting Thanks for the tip but then again if me using sarcasm somehow makes you feel stupid thats kind of how you choose to see things and not necessarily how things indeed are, and choosing to ignore the topic while concentrating on the method of presentation is simply put deflecting, had you wanted to discuss something you would discuss it regardless of the presentation... sarcasm + "My intelligence and clarity of understanding make you feel inferior" + "You don't see reality clearly like I do" + "If you don't like talking to me, it's not MY fault, it's all on you" = dismissive/belittling/insulting the other 90% make it look like "man is the devil" and that all day long we go walking around thinking of new ways to keep the women down "The majority of women are anti-male, even those who claim to be feminists or say they hate sexism, including 90% of the posters in this thread" = dismissive/belittling/insulting fighting it when it matters Im all for that, but to stop and examine all the little things looking for sexism, of course one will find it but what does that serve except for costing you your nerves and fuelling your hatred towards men ? seriously thats so offensive ? "Paying attention to small instances of sexism only makes women hate men -- more than they already do" + "You shouldn't be bothered by the things you say you're bothered by, they're not actually hurtful" = dismissive/belittling/insulting Soooo, maybe if you would lay off the sarcasm, and stop telling a group of women that they're being oversensitive, silly, unproductive, unrealistic man-haters any time they express being bothered by sexism in small instances in their day-to-day life, you might have a more fulfilling conversation in this thread. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 26, 2012 Emm, my post which was men men men, wasnt even meant to talk about that, but mainly to say how most people here dont view sexism as a two way street, Yeah, go read the thread again. Plenty of us were talking about sexism towards men ALONGSIDE sexism towards women. Want me to point out specific posts? Here. Here. Also here. Oh look here too. Wow, look at all that one-way-streetism! /sarcasm And that's just from the first couple of pages. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 26, 2012 (edited) Ohh man, you have an interesting way of seeing things, I'll give you that.... "I recognize reality, while you choose to ignore it, because you are secretly thrilled to see anti-male sexism." = dismissive/belittling/insulting. As a response to her telling me how I dont get it (interesting that you dont call that dismissive), after ignoring sexism towards guys and saying that girls are used in commercials as sex objects... Answer this please before you go into extensive deeper understanding of things as they serve you... Does sex sell ? Are men and women both used ? if you agree then it is a reality is it not ? regarding "because you are secretly thrilled to see anti-male sexism" she has claimed otherwise, I was speaking of things as I see them here, I choose to believe her saying otherwise, Fuzzy, I apologize for that remark, was off mark, wasnt cool of me, cant take it back so I apologize.... sarcasm + "naturally," none of you care about anti-male sexism (despite many people's statements to the contrary) + "oh, we're talking about WOMEN, not men. AGAIN." = dismissive/belittling/insulting. Many people stating otherwise ? where were those discussions ? I saw a post or two saying its a two way street but mainly its this is bad, this is bad, that is bad and almost all is towards women, am I wrong ? "Why are we still talking about women?" and "Stop talking about what you want to talk about and talk about what I want to talk about!" = dismissive/belittling/insulting Are you serious ? I said that ? I want to talk about sexism towards guys ? when did I say that ? I was merely making a point - people are talking about equality for all but thats not what this thread is about at all sarcasm + "You only care about yourselves." = dismissive/belittling/insulting I dont even know where did I write that... nor how come I used sarcasm six times thus far in two sentences....but ok... sarcasm + "My intelligence and clarity of understanding make you feel inferior" + "You don't see reality clearly like I do" + "If you don't like talking to me, it's not MY fault, it's all on you" = dismissive/belittling/insulting My intelligence and clarity of understanding.. with all due respect, you're being ridiculous right now, and its not you dont see reality clearly as I do , its a smiple matter of when things are written we tend to add certain tones to the words, I do it, princess does it, the fact we add certain tones to the words just reflects on ourselves, it has nothing to do with clarity/intelligence, you're reaching, like really reaching... "The majority of women are anti-male, even those who claim to be feminists or say they hate sexism, including 90% of the posters in this thread" = dismissive/belittling/insulting Excuse me, if I express how this thread feels to me, Im being dismissive ? am I not being a minority in this thread ? Can you not see it as if you're the one dismissing me here ? "Paying attention to small instances of sexism only makes women hate men -- more than they already do" + "You shouldn't be bothered by the things you say you're bothered by, they're not actually hurtful" = dismissive/belittling/insulting I never said they're not hurtful, I cant possible decide whats hurtful for anyone except for me, now you're just lying.... Soooo, maybe if you would lay off the sarcasm, and stop telling a group of women that they're being oversensitive, silly, unproductive, unrealistic man-haters any time they express being bothered by sexism in small instances in their day-to-day life, you might have a more fulfilling conversation in this thread. Im sorry, I dont think my opinion is lesser than yours, I feel like this thread is basically a bashing party, some of the things were sexist and I agreed with them other things were as I stated simply put, "no matter what you do you cant win" and neither of you has stated otherwise, can you honestly say that I can act in a specific manner without you finding sexism in my actions ? I seriously doubt that, thats the feeling I as a guy am getting from this thread, you keep saying Im dismissing you but then again to me it seems like you're dismissing me. How come when girls said the things I did, they were not dismissing you ? Edit - AngelKitty 4/5 posts you have attached were written by guys.... Of course I havent read 37 pages, when I jumped in, all I could see is, this is sexist, that is sexist.. and to me its like really ? when Im doing that Im being sexist ? and that other thing too ? Wow ? Can I do anything right and the answer as it seems to me is simply NO... now the way I see it, sexism is bad, we would all like it gone, but if everything I do is sexist, what a hell am I even doing at all ? What would you want us to do if the answer is there is nothing you can do actually ? Edited April 26, 2012 by The Evil Doer Share this post Link to post
Posted April 26, 2012 Lucky! I almost never see that kind of stuff when I get dragged out to shop for clothes! I wish I did! Maybe I just get dragged to the wrong stores. Though yeah, I do sometimes see some really nice stuff on both sides (or some really bad stuff on both) but more often than not it's very generically "girly" clothes filling the girl's section, with the only "cool" ones available only in the kinds of sizes somebody like a 3rd my size could wear... ;_; There's never any "cool" stuff available in a wide range of sizes, which drives me nuts... But like I said, I rarely see anything non-girly in the girl's sections anyway... >_<' I am glad for that, but I really just don't appreciate having the frilly/"sexy" stuff shoved in my face with the way it's displayed in the store and the advertisements and stuff. I don't like having to wind my way through like 50 display stands covered in frilly underwear just to grab my pack of nice, plain stuff. Probably because I just have a major aversion to anything with frills or ruffles. /quietly sidesteps up a couple posts. The worst thing about women's clothes for me is lack of pockets. I don't like carrying a purse. I LOVE pockets. But, women's clothes in general, presume a lack of pockets. As far as frilly stuff, my main issue with bits of lace is that as often as not, when I was a kid, that stuff was itchy. Rarely have I seen lace (or should I say felt) lace that was not scratchy. I have very sharp nails and I itch when I have an itch. This lead to me being bloody. So eventually, I'd just undo a seam and strip the lace off the things. comfort> frilly bits. I've shopped in the mens section. But this has lead to some situations at work where I wore the same polo shirt or hawaiian shirt that one of the guys had. And it's rather obvious that they feel weird about wearing the same shirt as a woman, so they'll stop wearing it if that happens. I admit, I find it a bit funny and probably shouldn't. I usually like the colors in the men's area more than the women's though. And I prefer solids over prints in general Share this post Link to post
Posted April 26, 2012 I really think that it's not right. I mean, it's not our fault that we were born with a specific gender! But, as for terms, like policeman, I really think it's accepted that they are gender neutral. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 26, 2012 Yeah I don't get why so many girls dislike pink. I know pink just represents females but that' starts from birth. Girls are wrapped in a pink blanket and boys in a blue. If it were swapped I guarantee you most girls would be hating on blue. I just don't like pastels of any kind because they're just not interesting to me, including pale pink and baby blue. Bright and neon pinks are fine as well as bright blues. It took me a long time to realize that I could just be me. Just because I didn't like some stereotypes didn't mean I had to shun things that involved those stereotypes. This is a struggle I had from fourth grade to twelfth. I was too focused on not fitting into the boxes people tried to put me in that I didn't realize I could like what I wanted while not fitting into a box. What was my problem with pink and why I didn't want to be associated with it? What is the problem many men have with pink? Why isn't pink (or any other more feminine color) much of a choice for men's clothing? Why is it mostly just a female thing? I didn't want to be stuck into this box of, it's not good enough for men, just like you aren't as good as men. Pink is a girl color and that's all you are. A girl, not a person. It took me a long time to learn that I could both like pink and just be a person, among other things. Though I still dislike the difference in clothes, clothing types, colors, pictures, and pockets offered to girls and boys. We should just have a people section with clothes for curves to not curves to short to tall to skinny to fat. x3 If what I experience every month is any judge, we ARE more emotional than men--at least for a day or two, haha. Interesting. A large number of women I know either don't have PMS and are controlled anyway or do have PMS but are always checking themselves and asking friends to make sure they aren't being reasonable. The rest of the women I know I just don't know about, but they're never more emotional than the men around us. Actually less so, because there seems to be a trend where women are demeaned for having PMS for a few days, but men PMS all month long and that's okay because they're just being men. Anytime I react to something in a way my boyfriend might, I'm asked if I'm PMS'ing or told I'm PMS'ing (and therefore my reaction doesn't matter). My boyfriend is never told anything like that. Same with a bunch of the other women I know. =| The worst thing about women's clothes for me is lack of pockets. I don't like carrying a purse. I LOVE pockets. But, women's clothes in general, presume a lack of pockets. For sure. I haaaaaaate this! We don't carry purses because we want to, but because we have to. I want a balance between some of the patterns women's clothes offer me and the utility man's clothes offer me. But, as for terms, like policeman, I really think it's accepted that they are gender neutral. There are plenty of complaints against this, assuming man is the default gender type of thing. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 26, 2012 Does sex sell ? Are men and women both used ? if you agree then it is a reality is it not ? Ohh, yeah. Sex sells, and commonly both men and women are used. But I'll try to rephrase something here that ylangylang said earlier -- that, while sexual stereotypes are used in ads of men and women, it's still more often to men's advantage and more often to women's detriment. Also, I was speaking earlier of sexual objectification/hypersexualization, as opposed to the separate issue of unrealistic ideals of beauty. As far as men in modeling, clothing ads and such, they are every bit as subjected to unrealistic ideals of beauty. That's different from on venues like TV, where you can find a few dozen shows with average-looking guys, chubby guys, short guys, big-nosed guys, socially inept guys, balding guys, odd-looking guys, generally still paired with supermodel gorgeous gals. Sexualization, though... that involves the people actually being portrayed in a sexual fashion, as sex objects, primarily valued for, primarily *existing* for the sexual pleasure of the people around them. Submissive, passive, come-hither, partly- or fully-naked, lowered eyelids, spread legs, a living sex toy. Men in certain types of advertising are also held up to an impossible standard of beauty. It's not as prevalent as with women, but it's still there, and still unfair and damaging. However, men in advertising are not hypersexualized and sexually objectified in the same way that women are. I'm not blaming "only men" or "only women" for this phenomenon. We're born in this culture, raised with it, and a lot of us end up feeding back into it. The link I initially posted, I thought made the issue very clear. But now you're saying you didn't even watch it and yet you posted in response to it; which happened the last two times I tried to reference links in this thread as well. I can't rationally discuss articles or videos with you if you comment on them without reading or watching them. Im sorry, I dont think my opinion is lesser than yours, I feel like this thread is basically a bashing party ...I posted a link to a video that explained the extreme sexual objectification of women in ads, you didn't watch the video, and you think my post was somehow bashing men? I mean... really... I'm not bashing anyone. It was just a good clip of a lecture. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 26, 2012 (edited) And before the evil doer says it is a trivial issue again(true stories from a place where it is very patriarchal)- 1. I have been told by real living people who were my acquaintances, etc and by the media that girls should try to be pretty but that guys don't need to be good looking. In verbatim. This is not a separate incident and not just me. It's considered acceptable in our culture to tell people to lose weight or put some make up even if you met them a few minutes ago. Which is prevalent throughout Asia and which is why we have a roaring plastic surgery business. Not to say that there aren't guys getting it but that majority of them are women. Ex: Guy says on TV-"I think the mother of my children should be hot, because then they'll respect her." Absolutely no backlash afterwards. Girl says basically the same, demeaning, oversexualized trope-"I think that men who aren't over 6 feel are losers." She loses her job, she gets expelled from her university, this was over 4 years ago and she still can't get a job. (Before you think that the vitriol in these statements are different: guys pretty much routinely make fun of ugly girls on our TV and still no backlash, whereas when girls make fun of ugly guys...) 2. Working out is discouraged for girls so they basically just eat less. Good example: the word "healthy" when applied to a girl's legs, mean that they are fat and/or too muscled. This is slowly changing; but still, it's not as widespread as I'd like it to be. 3. Yes there are instances where guys get addicted to exercise, but there are very few, compared with eating disorders for girls. 4. When advertisers put multiple scenes where a guy's abs were prominent there was a protest from a professor who said sexual objectification had gone too far, that men should not be objectified and that boys should not look up to an impossible standard. I would have been impressed had I not found a clip of him saying (there was another incident where a famous singer's thighs were called this originally sexually charged word by the media-basically means I would like to lick honey off your thighs) objectification of a female is a "natural" thing. Hypocrite much? 5. And if we get to the extreme oversexualization of children-oh boy. The youngest I've ever seen of boys targeted in this manner was....14. The youngest I've ever seen of girls targeted in this manner was...12. (These are western ages-in our country it's more like 16 and 14, respectively) So girls get sexualized from an earlier age. Not to say that guys don't, but girls do get put through a more extreme process. Comparison: (examples of children mentioned above) Boy: Girl: Spot the difference. So you see evildoer, it actually DOES impact a lot of society and I see this both worrisome to both men, who are just starting to get objectified here and many of whom have a flawed view of women, and women who suffer direct consequences such as lowered immune system, eating disorders, lots of money spent on plastic surgery and so on. Edited April 26, 2012 by ylangylang Share this post Link to post
Posted April 26, 2012 I would like to point out that in women's stores they generally carter to the majority population and trends. While this may be inherently sexist, these fashion trends also make it distinctly difficult for a girl who loves frills (think gothic lolita level). It's not just not-girly girls that suffer, the lack of variety hurts anyone who doesn't have the current fashion sense. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) Ohh, yeah. Sex sells, and commonly both men and women are used. But I'll try to rephrase something here that ylangylang said earlier -- that, while sexual stereotypes are used in ads of men and women, it's still more often to men's advantage and more often to women's detriment. Also, I was speaking earlier of sexual objectification/hypersexualization, as opposed to the separate issue of unrealistic ideals of beauty. As far as men in modeling, clothing ads and such, they are every bit as subjected to unrealistic ideals of beauty. That's different from on venues like TV, where you can find a few dozen shows with average-looking guys, chubby guys, short guys, big-nosed guys, socially inept guys, balding guys, odd-looking guys, generally still paired with supermodel gorgeous gals. Sexualization, though... that involves the people actually being portrayed in a sexual fashion, as sex objects, primarily valued for, primarily *existing* for the sexual pleasure of the people around them. Submissive, passive, come-hither, partly- or fully-naked, lowered eyelids, spread legs, a living sex toy. Men in certain types of advertising are also held up to an impossible standard of beauty. It's not as prevalent as with women, but it's still there, and still unfair and damaging. However, men in advertising are not hypersexualized and sexually objectified in the same way that women are. I'm not blaming "only men" or "only women" for this phenomenon. We're born in this culture, raised with it, and a lot of us end up feeding back into it. The link I initially posted, I thought made the issue very clear. But now you're saying you didn't even watch it and yet you posted in response to it; which happened the last two times I tried to reference links in this thread as well. I can't rationally discuss articles or videos with you if you comment on them without reading or watching them. ...I posted a link to a video that explained the extreme sexual objectification of women in ads, you didn't watch the video, and you think my post was somehow bashing men? I mean... really... I'm not bashing anyone. It was just a good clip of a lecture. Well, I do agree with that, obviously its worse for women as after all we indeed live in a still sexist society... I havent seen your video, I just now went a few pages back till the page where I posted those seven clips and I havent seen your video in any of the responses, maybe you're talking about something from earlier, its possible but I just dont recall the video, didnt mean it in a sense, "I dont want to watch your video" or something.... Regarding tv shows, you're just wrong, pick any tv show which is meant for 18-30 yo old people and thats not a sitcom, everybody is just hot, girls and guys... nothing chubby, average there.... I'll just try to explain the male pov, maybe you'll get it, maybe you wont.... first example would be the commercial ... guys being pigs your response to it is In the first one, men are pigs and women are a.) cold s who won't pay attention to you or else b.) dumb enough that as soon as you have a condom, you're a stud. My response is, its just a tasteless commercial IMO, but I dont really care about it that much.... If the commercial was as I have said, women being cows, and then one turns into a cute girl holding a bottle of some new milk which is better for babies than mothers milk... I doubt you would look for a sexism towards any men in it whether they're asses or dumb, maybe Im wrong though, I have no idea, I cant possibly guess how you see things... My response would be, its a really tasteless commercial, I would be kinda disgusted by it, as opposed to one with pigs/men, I would actually get angry about this one... The sad part is, as I have said earlier, that me actually getting angry coz of the cow commercial would probably portray me as sexist in someone's eyes... Example number two from real life.... A friend of a friend was having a party, aprox 40 people, I didnt know the dude really or something, its just one of those events you sometimes go to as a friend of a friend... at some point, a woman smacks the guy, really smacks him, and then again, and starts yelling, music stops, party is obviously over, it was somewhat humiliating coz you know, everybody is there, it just didnt look good... On a way back my friend is like yeah, well she's an alcoholic and 've seen it happen a bunch of times, she loses it and beats him up... and it was like, ok, thats not cool, but thats where it ended... Story number two, my neighbor would lose it, and beat the living crap out of his wife and their 7 yo son, now to me, a person who needs to abuse others to feel good about himself is just a weak, pathetic excuse for a human being, simply doesnt deserve to live IMO, I went downstairs countless times, pretty much wanted to kill the man, I didnt do anything (except for calming him down) coz obviously he would take it out on them once I was gone, I had cops over many times, my girlfriend tried to convince her to leave dozen times, every time I would literally go bananas.... Now, basically both stories are pretty much the same, however our responses arent coz thats how we're wired, so, from all the things a guy (me) reads in this thread, Im always gonna be sexist, when I read some of the stuff here it just feels like if I go right Im wrong, if I go left Im wrong, so what can I do really ? There are girls like angelicpuppy who are gonna get offended when sexism is blunt (talking about asses throwing around sexist remarks) with girls like her we can actually be decent guys coz she's not dissecting everything we do or say, with other girls who just dig into it (and lets face it, there is no way you can NOT find sexism in everything around us if thats what you want) there is simply no winning, Im damned if I do damned if I don't and when that happens its just exhausting... Seriously Kelkelen, I am sincerely asking you, what would you guys want us to do ? what would be the world which would work for you ? Cosmetic and fashion industries gone, what else ? guys caring about personality only ? (coz there has to be attraction, even for animals) Im really curious as to what would be ok for you guys ? Coz I just... like I said, you are painting a picture where I should just stop, literally stop, stop from thinking, stop from doing, thats the only way in which I wont do something sexist, so I ask you what is it that you would want us to do ? Frankly it feels like being in a state of helplessness, one girl thinks that opening the door for her is sexist, the other thinks its sexist that guys wont hit girls... If Im gonna be sexist regardless of what I do, why am I even bothering ? If Im sexist regardless of anything how do you not see that it looks as if some of you simply dont like guys ? I dont really know how else to phrase it for you, so you can try and understand the other side, my intentions, my actions, my words they dont matter coz when its all said and done, the result has been decided long before we even started ? If guys like me, who actually want to understand, and who would rather not be sexist reach this point, how do you think those blunt sexist guys would react ? I really tried to understand, but I just dont, and yeah, obviously you can go and say well you're a guy, you'll never understand but what world would be a cool one for you guys ? Has anyone of you ever encountered a guy that wasnt sexist ? How can you even exist within a hetrosexual relationship in a world as you view it ? EDIT - Frankly ylangylang I think that girl has the worst dress ever, and that they tried to make the boy look really feminine... I dont know about eating disorders in Asia, (I've heard some troubling things regarding Chinese people and daughters though, not saying you're from China or something) but I dont think gym and working out are as huge in Asia as they are in the states, Asian people (no disrespect meant) arent really built like Americans, maybe coz of the genes maybe coz of the food and whatever is in it.... Im not gonna go into gym habits of guys but its enough to look at the celebrities on the tv, each and every one has a body on them, those are what society tells us to be, thats what guys are trying to look like , in a same manner girls are trying to be food deprived skinny celebrities... its wrong on all accounts, agree completely.... Edited April 27, 2012 by The Evil Doer Share this post Link to post
Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) As a response to her telling me how I dont get it (interesting that you dont call that dismissive), after ignoring sexism towards guys and saying that girls are used in commercials as sex objects... She actually did make a point about sexism towards guys, you know. And our point is not to say that guys don't get used as sex object, it's just that girls get more oppressed. including the ones that all show MEN changing wheels and women looking helpless (I change my own - and fill my own oil too, thank you very much.) And I also object to the ones that show men as incapable of operating a washing machine and the rest. And it is shocking how fatherhood never gets a look in, yes. That's what fuzz said, I think that's addressing certain parts of male sexism. Feel free to contradict me. people are talking about equality for all but thats not what this thread is about at all As we keep saying-although sexualization target both men and women, women are hurt more by this, which is why there are more posts about women. Instead of saying that "oh it's always girls" perhaps you can contribute to this thread by saying that "Patriarchy hurts men too in this, this and this ways. That's why we need to get rid of it." ETA: And I think many of your points are valid. Patriarchy does hurt men. It deprives them of fatherhood, it deprives them of emotions and it deprives them of a legitimate protest of being victims. I agree. Sheesh, under our laws men cannot be victims of rape because the law is worded so that only women can be victims. I for one see sexism as a consequence of patriarchy, not men hating women. I'm pretty sure that people who've said nasty, nasty things about women don't think about that because they hate women-because they've been shaped into thinking in that manner because of patriarchy and the values that the system injects into us. Which is why we keep talking about advertisements and the media, because that greatly affects our way of thinking. Cosmetic and fashion industries gone, what else ? guys caring about personality only ? (coz there has to be attraction, even for animals) Im really curious as to what would be ok for you guys Maybe the media not limiting a perception of beauty to one very specific range, as soulesshuman has said: Conversely, every single woman looks the same in the media. There is no similar range. The 'evil' woman looks the same as the 'beautiful' woman, just with different clothes. Criticism of the female emphasize a 'strong, sexy woman' ideal. A criticism of a male is a range of 'evil, beastly, cowardly, nerdy, manly, zealous, apathetic, etc'. So while male sexism does exist pervasively, there is more freedom for a male to 'back away' from male sexism, to other, less attractive but still just as loved roles. A woman has no such freedom. This is the difference between female and male sexism. Pretty much what I want to say. I think that girl has the worst dress ever, Agreed, completely shows her crotch. There are even worse photoshoots where they make her put a body suit, but I can't find it in the english media for now. Sorry about that. Oh no I've found it- link I dont know about eating disorders in Asia, (I've heard some troubling things regarding Chinese people and daughters though, not saying you're from China or something) No, I'm not from China, sadly It'd be interesting to see how body roles are shaping there, but no.. And yes, there are many eating disorders, and young girls generally have a weaker immune system. Combined with the fact that we're discouraged from working out during P.E or whatever, generally girls in Asia have very little muscle. but I dont think gym and working out are as huge in Asia as they are in the states, Asian people (no disrespect meant) arent really built like Americans, maybe coz of the genes maybe coz of the food and whatever is in it.... None taken . Well, now it's changing, but in the very, very old days working out was considered a sign of...well...sweating sort of brings into mind of peasants, so the higher-ups didn't like to sweat, and if you don't like to sweat, you don't work out. However, many more people are working out now, especially guys, at least where I live. Possibly because men's abs are aired everywhere now, sexualizing them and worshipping them...which I also think is completely degrading. And suits are considered a mark of being an adult here, so it's not interpreted as feminine here. Sorry, didn't think about the difference in culture... Edited April 27, 2012 by ylangylang Share this post Link to post
Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) If guys like me, who actually want to understand, and who would rather not be sexist reach this point, how do you think those blunt sexist guys would react ? If you want to understand, spend less time dismissing us as over-sensitive man-haters. I know you can listen, you've listened to me before on a subject which I could tell you really were trying to understand. You aren't acting even remotely the same way now as you did then, so that's why I am very hesitant to believe you when you insist you are trying to understand. You act differently when you are trying to understand. ETA re your two stories: Domestic abuse against men perpetrated by women is a HUGE problem, and I believe I've brought it up in this thread before--part of why it's such a problem is how sex roles in society make out like women are weak and fragile and men are aggressive. Which is a: totally sexist BS and b: leaves the male victims nowhere to go when they are getting beaten on by women. Less sexism would give those male victims a chance to get help. Edited April 27, 2012 by Princess Artemis Share this post Link to post
Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) If you want to understand, spend less time dismissing us as over-sensitive man-haters. I know you can listen, you've listened to me before on a subject which I could tell you really were trying to understand. You aren't acting even remotely the same way now as you did then, so that's why I am very hesitant to believe you when you insist you are trying to understand. You act differently when you are trying to understand. ETA re your two stories: Domestic abuse against men perpetrated by women is a HUGE problem, and I believe I've brought it up in this thread before--part of why it's such a problem is how sex roles in society make out like women are weak and fragile and men are aggressive. Which is a: totally sexist BS and b: leaves the male victims nowhere to go when they are getting beaten on by women. Less sexism would give those male victims a chance to get help. Im not saying you're wrong nor right, at this point I dont really know anymore, I have said it myself, its like reaching a point where it simply seems like it doesnt matter whats said or done as its a "lost cause" with some of you, I mean when Kelkelen takes a commercial where guys are literally replaced by pigs and says well yes, its sexist but it goes both ways, its no longer about explaining one side nor trying to understand the other, its all about spinning the things in a way that will make you look right,,, and to me it serves no purpose at all when it comes to topics such as this one. I dont know if you remember the vodka ad where guy is literally attempting to rape a drunk girl, if I were to use Kelkelen "spin master" techniques I would say yeah its tasteless and disgusting towards women BUT on the other hand its also sexist towards guys as its suggesting that we are sex crazed animals who want to rape girls (which is an absurd spin of things IMO)....Is that what we're doing here coz thats what it looks like and I have no interest in doing that, it serves no purpose and Im not into winning some argument coz there's nothing to be won here at all IMO... so yeah, maybe at some point I stopped listening, its possible... nvm, dropping, it, if you ask me it seems as if most of you dont really know yourself what type a world or men behavior you would actually see as non-sexist one and if you guys dont know that, there's nothing for me to gain here anyhow... Edited April 27, 2012 by The Evil Doer Share this post Link to post
Posted April 27, 2012 I dont know if you remember the vodka ad where guy is literally attempting to rape a drunk girl, if I were to use Kelkelen "spin master" techniques I would say yeah its tasteless and disgustign towards women BUT on the other hand its also sexist towards guys as its suggesting that we are sex crazed animals who want to rape girls.... Yeah, that's exactly what it was, and that's part of why that ad was so horrible. Stating something like that isn't "spin master technique", it's a different, but very valid, point of view. A lot of people will see the violence against the woman in that ad first, but it is absolutely right and proper to point out the sexism against the man in it as well. If you'd done something like that, said, yes, it's sexist against women because of X, but look at it this way also!, I'm certain you would have had a receptive audience. There was nothing right about that ad. Consider what Kelkelen said as giving another point of view on things, to add, not subtract from your point, just as what you now observed about the vodka ad adds another point of view to that topic. Adding to the discussion without dismissing other points is a good thing to do, generally. I believe I explained pretty clearly how I'd not see a man opening a door or paying for a date as sexist, and why sometimes I would see it as sexist. I've got the matter pretty clear in my mind: it's got to do with respect in which the action is performed. I don't understand how that can be so confusing that it leads you to believe that I am not intelligent enough to know what it is when I see it. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) Adding to the discussion without dismissing other points is a good thing to do, generally. Agreed. The Evil Doer, the main problem I have with you is....you're basically saying that if we say that women are hypersexualized in ads, you say "well men are too" and basically write off our points as invalid and oversensitive, because it happens to everyone. We already know that sexism happens to both genders. We've agreed that they're both problems everywhere. There are many, many instances where I've even said that there is sexism against guys. However, we were discussing instances where females are hypersexualized, and if you think that point is invalid, then give us instances where women aren't sexualized. Sexism against men is different from saying that women aren't being sexualized or that women should stuff it and bear it because that's how the ad company works. A good analogy would be: during the witchhunts in medieval ages, some men were suspected of being witches too and were put to a trial and then killed. Does this mean that witchhunts in general wasn't a huge violence against women? No. Does this mean that what were done to these women weren't horrible and not justified? No. Does this mean that we cannot criticize the underlying, patriarchal system at the time and the mostly male leaders who fostered this atmosphere of witchhunts? No. Edited April 27, 2012 by ylangylang Share this post Link to post
Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) Yeah, that's exactly what it was, and that's part of why that ad was so horrible. Stating something like that isn't "spin master technique", it's a different, but very valid, point of view. A lot of people will see the violence against the woman in that ad first, but it is absolutely right and proper to point out the sexism against the man in it as well. If you'd done something like that, said, yes, it's sexist against women because of X, but look at it this way also!, I'm certain you would have had a receptive audience. There was nothing right about that ad. Consider what Kelkelen said as giving another point of view on things, to add, not subtract from your point, just as what you now observed about the vodka ad adds another point of view to that topic. Adding to the discussion without dismissing other points is a good thing to do, generally. I believe I explained pretty clearly how I'd not see a man opening a door or paying for a date as sexist, and why sometimes I would see it as sexist. I've got the matter pretty clear in my mind: it's got to do with respect in which the action is performed. I don't understand how that can be so confusing that it leads you to believe that I am not intelligent enough to know what it is when I see it. Princess, please stop going into the whole "I am not intelligent enough" aspect, nobody isnt attacking you nor claiming anything even slightly similar to that, so why go there at all... It never had anything to do with intelligence, but instead with life as some of you experienced it, black person in America is much more aware of/sensitive/call it whichever way you want towards racism as opposed to a black person who lives in Africa, some of you are more sexism "oriented" hence you're expecting it or looking for it and then its just a matter of time when we'll come out sexist towards you regardless of our intentions or anything else really, to some of you its a world where my choices of whether I go A or B have zero to no consequences, and when the result is already known, I just cant win simply coz Im a guy hence there is no such thing as a non-sexist guy... Its like a vicious cycle, not sensitive enough - sexist, sensitive enough means special treatment hence again sexist...Frankly, I dont think I would ever be able to coexist in a healthy hetrosexual relationship under such conditions so, you're kinda better than me I guess... edit - ylanylang, never written it off, never given validation, I claimed its not a women only club thats all and I always claimed that its worse for women... Edited April 27, 2012 by The Evil Doer Share this post Link to post
Posted April 27, 2012 I just cant win simply coz Im a guy hence there is no such thing as a non-sexist guy... Its like a vicious cycle, not sensitive enough - sexist, sensitive enough means special treatment hence again sexist... That is complete crap. =| I think the point trying to be made is that, generally, when we make points about sexism against women, you try to fight with us or show how we're wrong. When you make points about sexism about men, we agree with you. We may argue some of the things you are saying or the attitude of 'you're not being fair by just discussing sexism against females' but we are agreeing that yes, sexism goes all ways. had you wanted to discuss something you would discuss it regardless of the presentation... I don't know about you, but I wouldn't hold a conversation with someone who, for example, addressed me as stupid. Doesn't matter how much I want to discuss it, I'm not going to get through to that person, and I don't deserve to be called stupid, nor should I have to sit there and take it. if you ask me it seems as if most of you dont really know yourself what type a world or men behavior you would actually see as non-sexist one and if you guys dont know that, there's nothing for me to gain here anyhow... Nope, I know exactly what I want to see. Respect and acceptance of others. I'm not sure how we came off as otherwise, actually. o.o ~ In other news: "I'm surprised that supporters of abortion would think this is a good move. They are lessening the medical requirements for someone who can do an abortion. That does nothing to promote safety or to protect women's health." —Carol Tobias, president of the National Right to Life on this bill I think she meant "That does nothing to promote not allowing women their own reproductive rights." What a crap sentiment. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) Princess, please stop going into the whole "I am not intelligent enough" aspect, nobody isnt attacking you nor claiming anything even slightly similar to that, so why go there at all... So what's this supposed to mean? if you ask me it seems as if most of you dont really know yourself what type a world or men behavior you would actually see as non-sexist one and if you guys dont know that Sure looks like you think we're not smart enough to figure out for ourselves what we're talking about. ETA: Re: the quote on the bill: I can see people being wary of allowing PAs and such to perform such a medical procedure. I'm uncertain how passing off more and more medicine to people with fewer qualifications increases the standards of health. But maybe doctors really feel this is something that medical personnel other than doctors can do just fine. *shrug* Edited April 27, 2012 by Princess Artemis Share this post Link to post
Posted April 27, 2012 /quietly sidesteps up a couple posts. The worst thing about women's clothes for me is lack of pockets. I don't like carrying a purse. I LOVE pockets. But, women's clothes in general, presume a lack of pockets. As far as frilly stuff, my main issue with bits of lace is that as often as not, when I was a kid, that stuff was itchy. Rarely have I seen lace (or should I say felt) lace that was not scratchy. I have very sharp nails and I itch when I have an itch. This lead to me being bloody. So eventually, I'd just undo a seam and strip the lace off the things. comfort> frilly bits. I've shopped in the mens section. But this has lead to some situations at work where I wore the same polo shirt or hawaiian shirt that one of the guys had. And it's rather obvious that they feel weird about wearing the same shirt as a woman, so they'll stop wearing it if that happens. I admit, I find it a bit funny and probably shouldn't. I usually like the colors in the men's area more than the women's though. And I prefer solids over prints in general Gah, I know! I don't carry a purse, because I really hate purses (like, I have an irrational hatred of them. The ONLY time I ever use one is when I go to work, when it's just not feasible to bring my usual bag with all my sketch- and notebooks and pencils and stuff). I mean, seriously, why should I have a whole freakin' huge back when if I just get two decent-sized pockets, I can carry everything I need with me? I need a pen(cil) or two, my 3DS, my headphones, my sunglasses case, and my flash-drive (which I just like having zipped up in a pocket on my person anyway because I cannot lose that thing). I've got a jacket now that has pockets deep enough to easily hold all of that and more! ...Of course, the more pockets I have the more things I tend to randomly carry with me, just because I can... As far as frilly stuff, my main issue with bits of lace is that as often as not, when I was a kid, that stuff was itchy. Rarely have I seen lace (or should I say felt) lace that was not scratchy. I have very sharp nails and I itch when I have an itch. This lead to me being bloody. So eventually, I'd just undo a seam and strip the lace off the things. comfort> frilly bits. I've shopped in the mens section. But this has lead to some situations at work where I wore the same polo shirt or hawaiian shirt that one of the guys had. And it's rather obvious that they feel weird about wearing the same shirt as a woman, so they'll stop wearing it if that happens. I admit, I find it a bit funny and probably shouldn't. I usually like the colors in the men's area more than the women's though. And I prefer solids over prints in general This so much! I don't understand how people can handle it. I mean, if you can, that's awesome for you. But it just... So... Uncomfortable... My mom's tried to get me to buy some for fancy occasions, and I'm basically like "Do you want me to sit nice and still, or twitch and fiddle and look like I've got bugs in my clothes the entire time?" I've shopped in the mens section. But this has lead to some situations at work where I wore the same polo shirt or hawaiian shirt that one of the guys had. That's where two of my work shirts are from. We just couldn't find anything in the women's section that didn't show my boobs off, so I finally just had to get a larger shirt from the mens section... We should just have a people section with clothes for curves to not curves to short to tall to skinny to fat. x3 Wouldn't that be the day? I'd be great if we had that. Or at least more unisex stuff... Just re-stumbled across this the other day, and it seems relevant to show how the sexism has become so much a part of culture in some cases it leads to absolute idiocy which is just really sad: Linky~ (Actually, the bigotry tag in general has a lot of stories about sexism. I like the one about the guy who was so sure a girl couldn't help him, he spent 8 hours calling and hanging up because only the female employees were working.) Also, Re: Sexism against men: I don't think ANYBODY here is denying that it exists and that it hurts men. Just pointing out that women have it worse. But it's not like we're saying "because women have it worse, men don't get to complain!" I'm pretty sure we want to end all sexism--not just that which is against women. :| Share this post Link to post
Posted April 27, 2012 I'm all against bias such as this. I understand that some things women are better at than men, and vise versa (They even proved it on Mythbusters!) but that leads no reason to put pregiduce (Mis-spelt, I'm sure) over one gender. Everyone's skill levels and whatnot are different. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 27, 2012 Its really hard to find a tv show where not all girls and guys are hot, matter of fact almost impossible if you ask me, do you really only see hot girls in all those ? Orly? May I present the cast of 'The Vicar of Dibley.' Share this post Link to post
Posted April 27, 2012 My mom said something incredibly sexist the other day. We were shopping for wedding decorations and we went to this one store. The woman who owns the store wasn't there, but there was a capable man there to help us. I didn't have a problem with this, but my mom was like, "Oh are you the only one who can help us right now? Isn't there a woman around here?" Me and the man were both baffled and I immediately pointed out how sexist that was. I was so embarrassed. Share this post Link to post
Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) I'm not going to read through this whole damn thread, but, to be fair, I have read at least half of it. Probably close to two thirds. >__> But I don't remember all of it. Anyway. In my opinion, there are quite a few people who scream "SEXIST!" at the slightest provocation, and there are people who pretty much don't find anything sexist. And then there are the regular people who can understand when something is being sexist, or when it's just plain stupid for some other reason, or whatever. Is the hypersensitive person the bad guy and the... hyposensitive?... person the good guy? Not by any means, but this seems to be the idea most people get. =/ Which is really kinda depressing. Something the hypersensitive people have a point. Sometimes they don't. Same with the hyposensitive people. The problem with this is that when the hypersensitive person *does* have a point (and they're already on shaky grounds in most people's heads), the hyposensitive person will basically respond with "naah, you're being too paranoid", and pretty much any sort of sexist accusation will be, well, pretty much discarded because that mentality, no matter how truthful it is. Something I've noticed is when people see someone being a jerk to someone to the opposite gender, they think that they're doing it because they're the opposite gender, and there is no other reason for it, completely throwing away any other variables. Sometimes the gender of the person does play in, but then it's only playing in. There are other reasons. While that is bad, too, sometimes it's just best to think "yeah, maybe I did up" instead of crying sexism. Do I think that people in this thread are being overly sensitive and completely paranoid? For the most part, no. I think a good deal of you have made very good points. And, for the record, don't read this post as me directing this at women. I'm directing this at men, too. =U And you... androgynous people. Some things that I do take offense at: Men being shown as incompetent slugs. All women being married to a guy less attractive than they are. I think it's awful that we've reached a point where, to make things "equal", we decided to drag men down to this near-retarded level of intelligence instead of simply making more positive female roles. I've pointed this out before, so I'll do it again. Pretty much the only female role you see in cartoons nowadays is the motherly one. Wait, actually, there are two: the mother and the *. The * can be pretty tomboyish, but normally she's smart, witty, and strong. The motherly one may not be all ribbons and bows, but she's normally even tempered, smart, witty, and strong. This is in a cartoon. Cartoons that are there to make you laugh. So why are women always playing the straight man? You look at pretty much any cartoon nowadays and you'll see that the vast majority (if not all) of the male characters are there for humour. They're funny in some way. Normally, they're stupid. And yet, when it comes to women, we have very few characters that are there for humour. Instead, they're to be a good female role model for the girls watching. And yet... boys don't need role models? That's bull****. If I watch a cartoon, I want to be entertained. I don't want to constantly have a STRONG INDEPENDENT WOMAN thrown in my face constantly. Hell, that's more damaging than it is helpful, because it's showing me that, as a woman, I need to be smarter and more responsible than the average man, because he's just an immature sloth. Am I saying that we shouldn't have strong, independent women? Hell no! What I'd like to see is more serious works, where a role model actually makes sense. I want a kind, independent, capable woman to look up to, and I want that to be the kind of woman that girls can look up to. Actually, not just girls: any female of any age. If she's in an action movie, I want her to be kick ass without always needed a "I was raped" background. Tough action hero guys don't always need a tragic past to be awesome, why do women? On the topic of all these hot women with older/uglier men, it's ****ing retarded, if you'll pardon my French. People always say "that's not true" and "she married him for the money" but there is one problem... why don't we ever see the reverse? Why don't we ever see an ugly/older woman with a of money and a young, strapping husband? I swear, it feels like any time something close to that /does/ happen, it's completely for humour. Wtf? I wouldn't mind it at all if it was just a few separate cases, but it happens all the time. I could show you literally dozens of cases where the typically attractive woman is romantically involved with the culturally-accepted less attractive man. And don't give me that bull**** about "Well, I don't find x attractive, so clearly y is a pretty even match with them." No, we all know what is considered attractive depending on our culture, do don't even begin to bring up your own personal taste and act as though everyone agrees. Aww, my ideal woman looks like this, and I find her to be kinda ugly, yet I can tell which one is accepted as being more attractive in modern day America to most people. I don't think sexism pertains only to women. Actually, throughout my entire childhood, I had pretty much seen only sexism towards men. Be it my parents telling me that all men are scum, my classmates frequently tormenting all the boys, or even my teachers expecting them to be less skilled, I have seen no shortage of sexism towards males in my life. Hell, the only men I've ever really known that are above the age of ten were my grandfather and my second grade teacher! I've been completely surrounded by women my whole life, and, to be honest, sometimes I feel like I'm taking on that whole "women's brains work in mysterious ways" way of thinking, only gender flipped. And then I feel awful and sexist, but it does kind of hint at me a bit. I've never been seen as weaker or dumber because of my gender or the sometimes stereotypically feminine way I act at time by a man. Not once. Not on the internet, not in real life (though that might be explained by above... not that many men around to judge me). But you know who I have been judged by all the time? Other women. I've had women tell me that I'm dragging other women down for liking pink and skirts and dresses, and spending up to an hour on my hair and makeup. I've had women stop associating with me because I like older, masculine men and younger, feminine women. Can I help my sexual preferences? No, I cannot. Keep in mind that it *wasn't* because I was bisexual. In fact, they were bisexual as well. No, it was because my ideals were somewhat old-fashioned. Nowhere did I say, or even suggest, that all men and women should be like that. I just happen to find those stereotypes very attractive. I can't help it, so sue me. I've also had girls assume that, because I was a girl, I would enjoy partaking of roughing up my male classmates. They were surprised when I told them they were being sexist wretches and that they should be ashamed of themselves. From that moment on, I was shunned by both the girls and the boys in my school. Except for one boy. He thought I was being brave. v__v Also, can I just say that my parents have constantly told me that "yeahh, men and women are pretty equal, but let's face it, women are better" my whole life? Even my mom, the more fair of the two, agrees with this. Hell, my aunt thinks probably 99% of all men are creepy and disgusting and amoral. (And yet neither of them want me to be bi, huh... sorry, guys, I would help it if I could) Tl;dr, we have all faced different forms of sexism in our lives, some people complain too much, others too little, and cartoons suck sometimes. Predicting that this post will be ignored tralalala Please be sure to censor every word you shouldn't be using here. Some words don't censor when compounded with others. Edited April 27, 2012 by Zovesta Share this post Link to post
Posted April 27, 2012 I think it's awful that we've reached a point where, to make things "equal", we decided to drag men down to this near-retarded level of intelligence instead of simply making more positive female roles. ^This. "women's brains work in mysterious ways" Funny thing is, I've seen this shown as proof that a. women are stupid b. women are irrational c. women are super smart d. women are more compassionate e. women can act better under stress f. men will never understand women g. women can multitask h. women cannot multitask So many conflicting messages, mmm.... I've had women tell me that I'm dragging other women down for liking pink and skirts and dresses, and spending up to an hour on my hair and makeup. I've had women stop associating with me because I like older, masculine men and younger, feminine women. That's sad... *pat pat* Share this post Link to post
Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) Pretty much the only female role you see in cartoons nowadays is the motherly one. Wait, actually, there are two: the mother and the censorkip.gif*. The censorkip.gif* can be pretty tomboyish, but normally she's smart, witty, and strong. The motherly one may not be all ribbons and bows, but she's normally even tempered, smart, witty, and strong. This is in a cartoon. Cartoons that are there to make you laugh. So why are women always playing the straight man? You look at pretty much any cartoon nowadays and you'll see that the vast majority (if not all) of the male characters are there for humour. They're funny in some way. Normally, they're stupid. And yet, when it comes to women, we have very few characters that are there for humour. Instead, they're to be a good female role model for the girls watching. And yet... boys don't need role models? That's bull****. I'm just wondering about what cartoons you see this in? I dun have cable anymore, so I pretty much don't know many recent shows and all the cartoons I can think of follow these things: -parents are useless and oblivious -either all the characters are the same level of useless/useless in their own special way, or all the characters kick butt and are totally competent Is the hypersensitive person the bad guy and the... hyposensitive?... person the good guy? Not by any means, but this seems to be the idea most people get. The messages I read from people who talk about this kind of thing (keep in mind I am just going to certain sites, so this is a biased view that I am talking about) are really about an understanding of these two. Going with the hypersensitive/hyposensitive terminology since I dun have anything better... If a hyposensitive person says that something offends them, take the time to realize it offends them, apologize, perhaps think about why it offended them, and move on. If a hypersensitive person says something that offends you, realize how they meant it, perhaps make a comment about how not everyone may find that appropriate, and move on. In the most basic circumstances, anyway. Things like trigger warning: this ad are on a whole 'nother level, IMO. Edited April 27, 2012 by SockPuppet Strangler Share this post Link to post
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