Sexism

[RheaZen]

And therein lies part of the problem. Let's all just chill, bro.

 

... and I use "bro" for both genders. Sexes. Whatever.

[Princess Artemis]

I gather my point wasn't made.

[WereJace]

I gather my point wasn't made.

It's okay Princess Artemis. It's fine to discriminate if the oppressed minority is being 'uppity' because how else are they going to learn that nobody in the majority cares about their opinion? Especially if the majority is amused by the discrimination. That especially makes it alright. Minorities should just shut up and never speak out against oppression, because the majority might be uncomfortable with being confronted by the reality of the situation.

[Obscure_Trash]

It's okay Princess Artemis. It's fine to discriminate if the oppressed minority is being 'uppity' because how else are they going to learn that nobody in the majority cares about their opinion? Especially if the majority is amused by the discrimination. That especially makes it alright. Minorities should just shut up and never speak out against oppression, because the majority might be uncomfortable with being confronted by the reality of the situation.

It's also totes cool to do those things because HAY GUIS, WE DEFEATED SEXISM LONG AGO! Durr.

[MathiasTolerain]

One thing has always bothered me about the definition of "sexism" used in many activist circles that I come across is that it involves a power dynamic.

 

For instance, a man hating a woman is sexist, but a woman hating a man is not "sexist" as the power dynamic isn't "going in the right direction."

 

I'm curious what people in this thread think of this idea. Is "power" a necessary part of any definition of sexism?

[Omen]

Anyways. There is a great deal of sexism against men as well, but sexism against females is simply more publicized.

Sexism towards men is also often viewed as socially acceptable. A man complaining about say being emotionally abused and molested by a female would be viewed as a total wimp, whereas a female encountering the exact same treatment from a male would be greatly sympathized with and could even get the guy arrested.

Women tend to complain more about sexism, which I guess is why it is more commonly publicized. An example that is quite widespread was when women couldn't vote and couldn't work in certain fields because it was a 'mans' job. These days, women can vote in most countries and aren't really restricted when it comes to lines of work. It's a pity there isn't much publication on sexism against men.

 

While men tend to be called sexist far more than women, men also have to cope with a fair amount of sexism. I'm not sure on how much of a difference there is between sexism against men and sexism against women, other than which one is more publicly known, but I'm assuming it's pretty equal as to how much sexism there is against men and women.

 

My views? I'm pretty neutral, and don't really react to sexist comments against either of the genders unless it is going overboard (I react to different types of discrimination on different levels). Generally it's easier to not get involved than it is to attempt to solve the issue, but that's not always a good thing. Anyway, I use "guy/man" as a gender neutral word a lot, I'll call anyone a guy/man if I know them well (otherwise it's miss/ma'am or sir).

 

I do think it's wrong for men to hit women, but I also think it's wrong for women to hit men. Essentially what I'm trying to say is that gender equality is something that's needed, regardless of which genders are more victim to sexist claims. But, that probably won't happen as far too many people are narrow minded and don't like change.

Edited August 31, 2011 by VampiricOmen

[dragon_mando]

I guess I'm kind of weird with sexism. Where I grew up, it was definitely very strong: women can do this, men pick up the rest because women just can't do as much. My stance on it is still not nearly as opposite as a lot of people would like.

 

Men are physically stronger, there's no doubt about that, but I believe women have the intellects to balance out that physical difference through intelligence. As such, I do believe men are slightly better suited for manual labour positions where they have to do heavy lifting, though women can do it just fine if they have the physical endurance and strength to perform. That said, I've already accepted that I'll never be able to do some of the things a cis-male cane do, or at least not nearly as well.

 

For intellectual jobs, the three highest IQs ever recorded were all held by women, so go for it girls!

 

Now in this respect, I have very much been accused of sexism: I call everyone guy and bro, because those are gender-neutral to me. I have no problems either with my friend who calls everyone gal and sis, because that's gender neutral to them. But for me, they are just awkward words for me to get out of my mouth because I want to say the full word 'sister' or for gal, that was slang in my town for gallop, so it takes me a moment to go 'not a galloping horse, a woman' in my head.

 

A lot of things growing up I did think were very sexist though. For example, my mother can't even leave her house to buy groceries without calling my father for permission, but he does whatever he wants. My mom claims this isn't sexist, it's out of respect to her husband. My brain screams red lights at that, because I don't see that same 'respect' being reciprocated and it makes me all but scream at my mom about how stupid I feel she's being, but I know if I did it wouldn't change anything.

 

Or the reverse sexism with my siblings...my eight year old sister has more chores than my thirteen year old brother because he's the only boy my parents recognize out of four kids, so he gets special treatment.

 

Things like those drive me crazy. Word usage, policeman, policewoman, they're both people so a person can either call them officer or by their correct gender, doesn't matter to me a bit, things like bro, sis, guy, gal, I feel those are up to each person to decide how strongly tied to gender they are and how they want to use them.

Edited August 31, 2011 by dragon_mando

[MedievalMystic]

For example, my mother can't even leave her house to buy groceries without calling my father for permission, but he does whatever he wants. My mom claims this isn't sexist, it's out of respect to her husband.

 

Is this for real? Are you in the U.S? O.o If your dad demands this behavior, he's the worst kind of control freak there is, and if your mom goes along with it and see's absolutely nothing wrong with it, she either has no spine or mind of her own whatsoever, or has been brainwashed. Unless it's some cultural thing, in which case I'm thanking God I'm not part of that culture. Subservience isn't my thing to put it mildly, and I can't imagine any female I know happily going along with that...

Edited August 31, 2011 by MedievalMystic

[Elirium]

Is this for real? Are you in the U.S? O.o If your dad demands this behavior, he's the worst kind of control freak there is, and if your mom goes along with it and see's absolutely nothing wrong with it, she either has no spine or mind of her own whatsoever, or has been brainwashed. Unless it's some cultural thing, in which case I'm thanking God I'm not part of that culture. Subservience isn't my thing to put it mildly, and I can't imagine any female I know happily going along with that...

He was in the Bible Belt.

Insanity seems pretty normal down there from what I've been told.

[sheridan143]

I think people should do what they want. It is thier life and thier decsion.

[Princess Artemis]

One thing has always bothered me about the definition of "sexism" used in many activist circles that I come across is that it involves a power dynamic.

 

For instance, a man hating a woman is sexist, but a woman hating a man is not "sexist" as the power dynamic isn't "going in the right direction."

 

I'm curious what people in this thread think of this idea. Is "power" a necessary part of any definition of sexism?

I don't think power dynamics are a necessary part of the definition, but it's necessary to take into consideration.

 

If one group has most of the power, then it is that group that needs to do most of the change, as they are the ones with the power to change. Women as a group do not have the power to make cultures where it is absurdly acceptable to commit rape go away, for instance. That is a sexist evil, and it's all about power.

 

What I have heard from activists is that if they don't define women hating men as sexist, they do define it as 'ugliness' and not in any way acceptable behavior. If I understand the point they make correctly, it is that they place more importance on removing the sexism than removing the ugliness, because while both are wrong headed, removing the sexism is the one that will produce the most needed change. I mean, all things being equal, which they are not, I would rather have some people hate me than live were I have to be constantly aware of who might rape me. Which isn't to say things for men don't need to change too, they certainly do. But maybe you can understand why sexism against women is...kinda a big deal?

Edited August 31, 2011 by Princess Artemis

[Pink]

He was in the Bible Belt.

Insanity seems pretty normal down there from what I've been told.

Heh.

I live in the bible belt.

This isn't normal. Period.

 

Now, if you live in a very small town with less than 100 people and more than 5 (baptist or protestant) churches (or some similar ratio) it might be more common. I don't know.

The whole "The man should be the head of the household and everybody should obey him without question" mentality seems to have clung to a lot of those people from 60 or so years ago.

 

Anyways, I call call everyone "Bro" and "Guy" with no regard to gender. They lost all gender meaning to me long ago.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Pink

[prairiecrow]

I think people should do what they want. It is thier life and thier decsion.

But when people (usually men) decide that I can't earn as much per hour as they can because of what's between my legs, that IS a problem. When they judge me to be "too emotional" (or whatever other piece of pop-psych nonsense is going around) because I have a uterus, that IS a problem. When I have to work twice as hard to be taken seriously in a conversation because I'm a woman, that IS a problem.

 

Sexism is, by definition, not a problem that confines itself to the sexist. It is an issue that impacts the respect and rights due to a significant segment of the population, because it's all about denigrating that segment of the population and often about denying them the perks and the goodies that the "better/fitter/more deserving" sex enjoys. (And yes, this works against both women and men.)

[kiffren]

Look at scientific fields. Where are all the women? Physics and math in particular, as those are the fields I'm most familiar with. It's getting better now, but women are still forced to be significantly better than their male counterparts to get the same job. Back when my mom was in grad school, she got 'forced' out of the Ph.D. program simply because she's female.

 

My biggest annoyance with sexism is in clothing. What are females expected to wear? Clothes that show off their body. Low cut shirts, tight jeans. Even colors. Not all guys like blue and mundane colors, not all women like pink, purple, and other "girly" colors. So why do we dress our babies and children in colors that match their sex.

[greylight]

One thing I hate is when people look at you from the outside and dismiss you as somehow sexist without so much as asking you your opinions on anything.

[dragon_mando]

If one group has most of the power, then it is that group that needs to do most of the change, as they are the ones with the power to change. Women as a group do not have the power to make cultures where it is absurdly acceptable to commit rape go away, for instance. That is a sexist evil, and it's all about power.

It does go both ways too, sadly. It's certainly not as often, but men do get raped by women as well. It's one ugly evil that needs to go away, period.

 

@Pink: that might be more the problem. My town is just about 2k in population but has six babtist churches, three mormon churches, an eastern orthodox, and one other fundamentalist church I can't recall the denomination of. Still, that's nearly a dozen very fundamentalist churches and the general attitude of that town is that your purebred labrador is more valuable than your wife unless said wife produces a lot of male children. I think the latest news from the county was that only 60% of girls even graduate highschool in the entire county (note, many are homeschooled so never get a formal diploma or GED anyway, so they might be doing the work, but no one knows) and only slightly better for men.

 

And come to think of it, the only female employees in the town tend to be waitresses, cashiers, and nurses...I can't think of any other jobs I've seen women in there O_o

 

I am not okay with this.

[Princess Artemis]

It does go both ways too, sadly. It's certainly not as often, but men do get raped by women as well. It's one ugly evil that needs to go away, period.

It does happen, but it is comparatively rare, so obviously, it is a much, much bigger problem of sexism against women. It's not really a situation of going both ways when one evil is exceedingly rare and the other evil is exceedingly common. It is, of course, always evil. An evil almost always committed against women and almost always committed by men.

[digipup]

It really drives me up the wall, honestly...

 

One thing I've speculated on (and which has previously been somewhat mentioned in this thread) is, "Why do men that wear 'girly' clothing, i.e., shades of pink, purple, ect., automatically get labeled 'gay', but women that wear masculine clothing don't?"

...

Irritating.

[Princess Artemis]

If it 'helps' any, the clothes I wear have caused people to consider me homosexual a number of times even though I'm not. So yeah, it happens to women too.

[LeopardDragon]

* poke poke * And what about chess... this is something I have noticed, it seems like the vast majority of chess players tend to be guys. ( Not without some exceptions of course). Is it that people still have the idea that girls can't. or is it just that males are more likely to be interested in chess? Just a thought. However, I can say this... I have played chess with the guys and won. Also, there are several examples of high level women chess players who could totally hold their own against their male counterparts ( look up the name Judit Polgar if you don't believe me.) So if it is the first, that idea is definitely false... girls CAN play chess; if the second, I am not srue about that one.

 

As for myself... I don't view my 'femaleness' as having much to do with my ablities or worth as a person ( with the exception that males are often physically stronger than girls). I can study science , play chess, whatever... and if someone doesn't like it, well they can go stand on their heads for all of me... I might well just decide to do said thing SIMPLY to prove that yes I can. I do NOT support male chauvenism and it annoys me, however I think people often make a big deal out of little details, 'cus as some peeps on here have already said, people like to complain. I mostly do what I like... not what stereotypes say a girl is supposed to be like but I wouldn't cry 'sexism ' every time something doesn't work out, either.

Edited September 7, 2011 by LeopardDragon

[Kestra15]

Varying degrees of reaction, from rage-inducing to hilarious.

 

I for one think that people should chill about a lot of non-issues so that actual sexism problems would get attention.

This, pretty much. Now if you excuse me, while my girlfriend is at work I'm off to wash the dishes, sort the laundry, and cook dinner. She only makes a mess of the kitchen whenever she tries to do any of the above.

[Segamen]

Though I myself is a female IRL, I still consider myself as a tomboy because I'm rather boyish myself, from behavior to preference and likings. But still, I sometimes don't get why just because you're a male or female you can't do this or that, it's rather irritating when people say things like:

 

"You shouldn't be drawing dragons or/and zombies! You should be drawing those cute and harmless things because you're a girl!"

 

"You shouldn't be liking things like Silent Hill and Left 4 Dead!"

 

"You are a girl and you shouldn't be learning parkour/skateboarding/*insert some other "male" sports here*!"

 

etc... (just some examples, but I had experienced the first one before IRL, second one, maybe, IDK, can't remember lol )

ETA: almost forgot, those examples are at my point of view because others had posted other examples already, so, yeah.

 

Seriously, things like that sometimes get into my nerves... so what if you're a male or female? If you like something or good at something, by all means, go ahead and do what you like.

 

And of course, everybody loves to judge and criticize unnecessarily on others...

 

How fun. <sarcasm

 

 

P.S: Also, why do people expect a male to be better in IT when some females can do computer stuffs even better than those IT guys.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Segamen

[LeopardDragon]

Though I myself is a female IRL, I still consider myself as a tomboy because I'm rather boyish myself, from behavior to preference and likings. But still, I sometimes don't get why just because you're a male or female you can't do this or that, it's rather irritating when people say things like:

 

"You shouldn't be drawing dragons or/and zombies! You should be drawing those cute and harmless things because you're a girl!"

 

"You shouldn't be liking things like Silent Hill and Left 4 Dead!"

 

"You are a girl and you shouldn't be learning parkour/skateboarding/*insert some other "male" sports here*!"

 

etc... (just some examples, but I had experienced the first one before IRL, second one, maybe, IDK, can't remember lol )

ETA: almost forgot, those examples are at my point of view because others had posted other examples already, so, yeah.

 

Seriously, things like that sometimes get into my nerves... so what if you're a male or female? If you like something or good at something, by all means, go ahead and do what you like.

 

And of course, everybody loves to judge and criticize unnecessarily on others...

 

How fun. <sarcasm

 

 

P.S: Also, why do people expect a male to be better in IT when some females can do computer stuffs even better than those IT guys.

AMEN. TO . THIS. Your gendcer shouldn't really matter all that much...

[Segamen]

AMEN. TO . THIS. Your gendcer shouldn't really matter all that much...

That's what I agree though, unless you're doing/working/etc. gender-specific activity(s)/job/etc.

[Pink]

That's what I agree though, unless you're doing/working/etc. gender-specific activity(s)/job/etc.

Elaborate please?

I cannot off the top of my head think of any gender specific jobs or activities that couldn't be carried out by either gender in some capacity.

:\

 

Unless you're thinking of being a sperm donor or a wet nurse, in which case I understand perfectly.