The Ratios

[annageckos]

No matter how many blockers you personally raise, if you don't have a perfect connection and super reflexes on top, you'll never get the CB metallics/trios/whatnot you're doing this for, they'll always go to the people with a better connection and better reflexes. (Personally, I have whole armies of neos, canopies, daydreams, waters, reds and skywings. I'm still waiting for the first CB metallic to find its way on my scroll, and I can count the number of CB trios on two hands.)

This is not always true. I was shocked when I caught my first and only CB gold egg from the cave. I was grabbing skywings and a gold popped up. The only reason I was able to get it was because there was only three people in that biome at the time. In my case, grabbing cave blockers really paid off. But I do wish something was done with the cave. I get tired of always seeing the same eggs over and over.

[skauble]

You want to hear something funny (or maybe it isn't...) ?

 

After a deeply annoying refusal, I NEEDED two pebbles.

 

It took me more than a day of hunting to get them. To each his perception, I guess. I must admit I was very surprised (and pretty cross, by the end, too !)

 

Give them credit - they did produce the geode requested in the end - today, in fact

Did you try the AP? Half the time there's more CB there then bred and I've picked up my fair share of CB Pebbles there while checking out lineages. lol

 

I think I remember someone making a suggestion about egg rotation. Not one where all the good ones can get snapped up first, but one that was was more about moving equal eggs around so that people who did want them could get them.

 

For instance, let's say that the cave was putting out:

 

100 Whiptails

100 Waterwalkers

100 Harvests

80 Ochredrakes

80 Shallowtails

80 Terrae

 

and so on, then eggs in the same range would switch out with each other after X seconds. That way, the people who were looking for different commons could take them when they changed over - which would help folks like fuzzbucket get things they need, like the Pebble, and get one more egg to someone's scroll without pushing the good eggs all to the front.

 

Also, I wonder if it would help if, instead of rares randomly going where the next open slot is in whichever biome when they're set to drop, maybe they could be equally divided among the biomes, with each getting an equal percentage to be released randomly throughout the day.

 

Because I know that a lot of people push through the blocks in the Desert because they feel they're more likely to get a rare there. Maybe if they felt there was an equal chance in all biomes then they'd not only push through blocks in other biomes, but they'd also hunt where there are common eggs that they need, so if they do pick up a blocker there's a better chance that they'd keep it.

[Saloiq]

I would love that rotation thingy, although I think every x seconds is too fast. Maybe 2-5 minutes?

 

I didn't know that was how rares worked. O: I thought each biome had its own pile of rares, guarded by other breeds.

 

There's also not that big of a block in the Desert. There also aren't that many blocker breeds there. And I hunt in the Desert because I know other people will be there grabbing blockers for me.

 

I guess someone could organize a "everyone go to the coast and unblock it and you will see the rares!" day.

 

I don't think people ever feel like they "need" commons unless they're for lineage projects. They're common - you can get them any time! I ignore all the common breeds I have yet to catch, even some that I actually like in favor of grabbing or trading for stuff like Reds. Maybe that's just me though?

[SolarCat]

I try to grab my desired number of commons when they're common, because they tend to go rare later. I learned that with the bright pinks. (I was waiting to collect them, thinking that they'd also be male gendered and thus easier balance. Little did I know they'd simply be replaced instead, so I have no CB's except a frozen hatchling).

 

As a result, unfortunately, I rarely find things I want in the AP anymore, but I also have my full compliment of blacks and reds and pinks and frills...

[Pokemonfan13]

I would love that rotation thingy, although I think every x seconds is too fast. Maybe 2-5 minutes?

Minutes is too slow. And the rotation wouldn't prevent someone from picking up the egg after it is rotated out if it is still on their screen (they haven't refreshed the page yet). Maybe two seconds is too fast, but five to ten would be good. If it's minutes it wouldn't help much, since people would still have to sit and refresh on stuff they don't want waiting for something new to pop up.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Pokemonfan13

[skauble]

Ugh I agree so much. And it really doesn't make sense the way it is now anyway. What, are caveborn dragons supposed to be like "Hey our captured brethren are breeding, let us abstain until there is less of them!". Right.

I may be wrong, but I think that the way the ratios connect between cave and bred probably has to do with the fact that, whether we feed them or they hunt for themselves, all of the bred dragons still need to eat and drink and other...dragony type things. Since the site says that breeding changes based on the competition for resources, and either our kept dragons are out there meeting their own needs, or we're out there gathering what they need, that competition could exist regardless of captivity.

 

There's also not that big of a block in the Desert. There also aren't that many blocker breeds there. And I hunt in the Desert because I know other people will be there grabbing blockers for me.

See, that's the thing; the Desert might not have as many blocker breeds as some other biomes, but the ones they have can do just as much clogging. There have been times when I've hunted there when none of us were willing to grab a blocker and we all just stared at the same eggs for nearly half an hour. So the blockers there have the same potential as those in other biomes, it's just people believe that there's an incentive to moving them in the Desert.

 

And, frankly. I don't think that the ratios would have to be changed drastically if we could just create more incentives for taking certain eggs. The BSAs do that, and the UVs haven't made the Spitfires fly out of the Desert, but it's helped them move quicker. I think there are a lot of things that we could do on that side of the issue that would help people want to collect various dragons.

 

For instance, since we know that dragons can survive before the actual hatching time, but rather choose to remain in their egg, why can't Whiptails be given a random hatching time before the 4 day mark? It says that they seem eager to hatch, so what's stopping them?

 

If I grab an egg that I have to hold for 5 hours, it's often 10 or 12 before I get back to abandon it. With a variable hatching time, it might just be worth it to me to keep the Whiptail. Also, for newer players trying to get their trophies, a dragon that hatches quicker would probably be quite popular, especially given that they probably don't have armies of red to take time off of other breeds.

 

Which doesn't mean that i think that the numbers end shouldn't be tweaked; just that I think that there are a lot of ways to solve blocking that actually expand game play.

[Ashes The Second]

I'm just concerened you'd change the fundamental way DC is broken down. Cave Blockers exist for a reason, and if TJ wanted it that badly to be put in, then he probably could have, but I don't see rotating eggs out as a viable solution right now.

 

If I grab an egg that I have to hold for 5 hours, it's often 10 or 12 before I get back to abandon it. With a variable hatching time, it might just be worth it to me to keep the Whiptail. Also, for newer players trying to get their trophies, a dragon that hatches quicker would probably be quite popular, especially given that they probably don't have armies of red to take time off of other breeds.

 

Which doesn't mean that i think that the numbers end shouldn't be tweaked; just that I think that there are a lot of ways to solve blocking that actually expand game play.

 

So much this. 8>

[Pokemonfan13]

Well, obviously if all the blockers can be given good BSAs that people would want to amass a BSA hoard of, then the problem would be pretty much fixed, apart from the chance of new breeds becoming the blockers. CB pinks and reds can be traded in the rare trading thread when they used to be dead common, after all.

 

The only question really is how many blockers can have really awesome BSAs (not duds like earthquake) that really fit them? I think Guardian and Gray are covered *pokes identify and active fogging* but what about the others? A lot of the BSAs in there are really pushing the connection to the breed or aren't something that will make the breed popular or aren't attached to a blocker... And then TJ has to program them and add them to the website.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Pokemonfan13

[Rohawk]

What about summoning ratios? I'm actually okay with the ratios in the cave (they're switched out every hour and it's nice to have a couple extra-rare things to work for) but I've been summoning for eons and never seen a dragon whatsoever. I almost wonder if I'm doing it wrong somehow.

[Fiona]

TJ has said he's considering what to do about Summoning. I can't quote it, because I don't remember where he said it. But Summoning isn't done by ratios, I'm pretty sure. It's done by straight % chance. ETA: thanks for the quote, purplehaze....

 

As for the cave ratios, I think any change to the current ratios is going to run up against the same problem we already have, which is that certain breeds just aren't popular, so people don't pick them up.

 

When the idea of biomes was being considered there was also talk of migration. Have we considered revisiting that idea?

Edited June 20, 2012 by Fiona BlueFire

[purplehaze]

What about summoning ratios? I'm actually okay with the ratios in the cave (they're switched out every hour and it's nice to have a couple extra-rare things to work for) but I've been summoning for eons and never seen a dragon whatsoever. I almost wonder if I'm doing it wrong somehow.

There was a whole thread proposing this, which TJ closed with this comment.

[skauble]

Well, obviously if all the blockers can be given good BSAs that people would want to amass a BSA hoard of, then the problem would be pretty much fixed, apart from the chance of new breeds becoming the blockers.  CB pinks and reds can be traded in the rare trading thread when they used to be dead common, after all.

 

The only question really is how many blockers can have really awesome BSAs (not duds like earthquake) that really fit them?  I think Guardian and Gray are covered *pokes identify and active fogging* but what about the others?  A lot of the BSAs in there are really pushing the connection to the breed or aren't something that will make the breed popular or aren't attached to a blocker...  And then TJ has to program them and add them to the website.

Frankly, I think it would take us years to develop great BSAs for all the dragons. Some of the ideas have been fantastically creative but, as you said, some really don't quite fit the breed or aren't tempting enough to get them picked up quickly.

 

That's why I think that adding in things other than BSAs could be helpful - and by BSA I'm talking about an action taken from the action page, not things that are simply inherent to the breed. The Whiptail example, for instance, wouldn't be a BSA, but rather a characteristic of all Whiptails. I don't know if there are any further surprises with the Luminas, but I think that if the tanning had lasted a week, instead of a day, that would have boosted their popularity because of the hugely increased lineage potential. Which isn't to say that the Luminas need the boost, just that I think that there are things that can be done, other than BSAs, that could help make different breeds popular.

 

I love the BSA concept, but I think that we could increase the popularity of many breeds by thinking about what the breeds could do that was simply a unique part of them, or what they could provide for the scroll owner that wasn't something that their breed was suited to do to an egg.

[jumpsnake]

It's called supply and demand. Caveblockers are blockers simply because the supply is greater than the demand.

Well, yes, that's my point.

 

If the supply is greater than the demand, which seems to be the case with blockers, WHY is the supply still so high? I about guarantee you that if the supply went down, the demand would go up. Kind of silly, but I'm sure it is true.

 

Some of what you propose as far as fluid ratios--- well, I think you are saying what I am but drawing a different conclusion from it. You seem to think that something else would become a blocker, and I agree-- but my point is, if we are correcting that, the cycle will continue on, and in a much faster state than it does now. I think this turn over would be GOOD. So sure, maybe nebulas will be the next blockers if we had fluid ratios, but then after that maybe it would be vines (HA! But I remember when vines WERE blockers.) And these changes would be self-correcting, and quickly, not taking months to turn over like they do now.

 

Also, rares and uncommons would have to be treated differently to preserve their rarity. I think this is a given, I'm not proposing changing it.

 

I also take issue with the statement "ratios exist for a reason." WHAT IS THE REASON????? I thought the idea is to keep rares rare, and keep commons common, but that is not what we have now. So if the purpose of the ratios is to maintain common eggs in proportion to one another, then they have failed, because all common eggs are not equally common. If the purpose of the ratios is something else, why can't we know what it is? If there really is a good reason, and I'm told what it is, I'll shut up. But to me the system seems a bit broken.

 

And, lastly, I appreciate you making this into a new thread! Thanks.

 

I also agree that making BSAs, while helpful, is not really a solution because there are so many breeds right now.

[beautifuldragon5000]

I have one point to make, I have extensive nerve damage in my hands due to injuries and so that makes it hard to collect what I want to collect. and i am super picky on lineages and my CBs so I was wondering maybe if there could be a pause between eggs like maybe 2-3 seconds maybe that would help even it out.

[beautifuldragon5000]

and maybe there could possibly be considered a special rerelease of certain holiday dragons so more people could have CBs or would that screw things up?

[raistardragon]

What about having seasons? Like, true breeding season where different common/uncommon breeds became easier or more concentrated depending on the time of year? Most species have breeding cycles, why can't the dragons? I don't mind blockers, there will ALWAYS be blockers. Just why are the SAME blockers still blocking for extremely long periods of time? If each common dragon was given a 2 month period where they FLOODED the cave while others were rarer or at least less created it would keep the cave moving. During the off months CB commons would be more desirable for those who want CB or for lineages. That would help with the popularity common issue. There's only so many nebulas that someone can pick up during the span of a month or whatnot.

 

Why this would work:

When I first started I thought that pygmies where rare so I ALWAYS grabbed them, even if I didn't want them. That's because I rarely saw them in the cave. Now I know that they are very common I don't collect them as much. I think the same thing will happen if there is cycles of availability. The problem is not that there IS blockers. It's that they are the SAME blockers. Changing it up would keep things more interesting. I would actually have to hunt for the dragon I want other than just rare hunting.

[skauble]

I have one point to make, I have extensive nerve damage in my hands due to injuries and so that makes it hard to collect what I want to collect. and i am super picky on lineages and my CBs so I was wondering maybe if there could be a pause between eggs like maybe 2-3 seconds maybe that would help even it out.

Can you clarify how the pause would help? I think I'm probably missing the advantage aspect, because it seems to me like the egg would just go to the fastest clicker regardless of a pause in between the eggs.

and maybe there could possibly be considered a special rerelease of certain holiday dragons so more people could have CBs or would that screw things up?

I don't think that's a ratio thing, more like an incentive/reward for coming to the holiday events. Everyone can have the breed, but the CBs are about being here for the release. At least now there's hope in the form of the Christmas contest/raffle. A number of people have gotten CB Holly's through that.

[Obscure_Trash]

Sorry for the late merge! I thought this thread was gone. x3

 

I found it when searching for these threads that you guys might be interested in:

Egg Circulation: http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=117712

Migration: http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=122023

[Ashes The Second]

The ratios were put there because there had to be a way to even numbers out. Does anyone remember in '09, when silvers and golds were probably one of them most common dragons in existence, and catch a CB was about as easy as you could get? TJ fixed that because 'I had been spoiling you'. He wnated to even things out, and I don't know if anyone compained, but it was suddenly 10x more difficult to get the CB of whatever you wanted, and that was a good thing. TJ made it so the game wasn't horribly broken anymore. /That/ is the reason ratios are the way they are today, or one of the main underlying causes. My only problem is that I can easily catch uncommons/BSAs, but have no reason to, unless I'm gifted. So I pick up blockers, hatch them, and enjoy watching them grow up on my scroll. I don't breed them, but hey, my scroll. 8>

[jumpsnake]

Ashes,

I was here in '09, barely... but I don't think there is a reason to go back to how it was in '09.... however, there are so many players and so many dragons now I think it is time for another change.

 

It is silly easy to get CB dragons now... but only certain CBs. Why should only some of the common dragons be common? Unless TJ wants there to be levels of commonness, in which case I can't see why we call some dragons rare or uncommon while some are supposedly common even though you hardly see them in the cave.

 

What I want is an even mix of dragons in the cave at any time. I think if eggs are not picked up quickly, then there should be some adjustment made so less of those eggs are available. If an egg is picked up immediately, then more of that type should be made. This is only for commons; I'm not seeking to make trios easy to get here-- I feel like part of the premise of the game is that some dragons are hard to get and others should be easy to get. I just want the ones that are supposed to be easy to be, well, easy. The difficult ones can still be difficult.

 

Again, I don't see a real answer for why the ratios are the way they are.

[olympe]

Well, I joined in October '09, and I didn't get any CB metals then (because the ratios were on the rebound from metallics being over-common). This rebound lasted until sometime last year, I think. I still don't have any CB metals (and only few CB uncommons), even though I upgraded my internet since then. Tough luck.

 

However, this thread is not about the ratios of rares, if only because there are still people who have an easy time catching them who want them to be rare so they don't drop in trade value. (Which is pretty much the essence of all "I want rares to stay rare!" posts, as far as I can tell.)

 

But what about commons? Stripes are supposed to be common. So are nebulas, tsunamis, vines, blacks and a couple of other breeds. Sure, their number might exceed the number of other breeds that turn out to be blockers (like whiptails...), but they're still hard to catch in the cave - which is what I'd like to change.

[Fuzzbucket]

But partly it is plain popularity or otherwise. And with the nebulas, people (including me ) trying to get both colours. And with BBW, the Holly contest - stuff like that..

 

Tsunamis are hard to catch ??? Maybe because people are using them ti lineage, come to think - but I seem to see them OK.

Edited June 23, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[jumpsnake]

I haven't seen a tsunami in over a week.

I haven't seen a nebula in over a week.

I'm not sure I've seen a vine in the cave for.... a month?

Blacks and stripes? Forget it! My CBs of these are from when they were released, or gifts. One CB black I have is from before lineages-- I just lucked out.

 

SO WHAT if there are more stripes in existence than whiptails? Why does this matter? If more players want stripes, or want more of them because of their variants, then why is that a catastrophe? I think they should be equally easy to catch in the cave, and equally easy to breed.

 

(Note: I have nothing against whiptails-- just using them as an example. Blockers are blockers because there are lots of them, not because they are ugly or bad somehow. I happen to like and indeed collect several blocker breeds. But I get bored seeing only the same collection of eggs in the cave all. the. time.)

[Ashes The Second]

Ashes,

I was here in '09, barely... but I don't think there is a reason to go back to how it was in '09.... however, there are so many players and so many dragons now I think it is time for another change.

 

It is silly easy to get CB dragons now... but only certain CBs. Why should only some of the common dragons be common? Unless TJ wants there to be levels of commonness, in which case I can't see why we call some dragons rare or uncommon while some are supposedly common even though you hardly see them in the cave.

 

What I want is an even mix of dragons in the cave at any time. I think if eggs are not picked up quickly, then there should be some adjustment made so less of those eggs are available. If an egg is picked up immediately, then more of that type should be made. This is only for commons; I'm not seeking to make trios easy to get here-- I feel like part of the premise of the game is that some dragons are hard to get and others should be easy to get. I just want the ones that are supposed to be easy to be, well, easy. The difficult ones can still be difficult.

 

Again, I don't see a real answer for why the ratios are the way they are.

I was relating to an example, but yes, the cave feels outdated, despite TJ making it feel 'new'.

[olympe]

But partly it is plain popularity or otherwise. And with the nebulas, people (including me ) trying to get both colours. And with BBW, the Holly contest - stuff like that..

 

Tsunamis are hard to catch ??? Maybe because people are using them ti lineage, come to think - but I seem to see them OK.

I have the bad feeling that certain breeds rotate during the day. You seem to find tsunamis easily, I don't see them at all. And while I can catch the occasional vine (one last week), jumpsnake hasn't seen any in a long time. And while I seem to see pebbles whenever I go to the volcano biome, you needed a whole day to catch two. *shrugs* Things sure are strange.