Pseudo Low-Gen Dragons

[order_of_chaos]

I like even-gens, and this thread tempts me to start a lineage where the whole first row is dead. Not metals - they're impossibly stubborn about breeding and I wouldn't want to kill one - but stripes, maybe. Anything other than a whole straight row of tombstones wouldn't interest me, though.

 

 

Something to think about: I'm pretty sure CB eggs don't just materialise out of nowhere. They'd have to have parents, too, albeit parents we know nothing about, and that aren't part of the game. If it can be argued that dragons with dead parents could be secretly high gen or inbred, the same could be said for caveborns.

[kiffren]

I regularly kill off dragons. I do it for my own personal satisfaction, because I prefer to have pretty dragons. I find long gen dragons, especially messy lineages, to be hideous, and would much rather have a fake 2nd gen. I don't use them to try and trade, I use them to make me happy with what's on my scroll.

[Goslander]

The term "(number) gen" is a descriptive term created to help people picture what the lineage page will look like when it is clicked. If all I see on a lineage page are three generations, tombstones or no, then that is a 3rd gen dragon, so of course I will call it that if I offer it up for trade. I will not call a 3rd gen dragon a 15th gen when it clearly is not, and I'm not scamming people by calling it what it is. The desirability of the 3rd gen is up for debate, sure (and thankfully there are handy dandy lineage links to help people avoid trades they're not interested in), but not the fact that the egg is 3rd gen. Otherwise I'd be questioning every CB claim there was, since CBs have lineages we know absolutely nothing about, and they could very well have hidden dead and inbred ancestors out the whazoo. Catching a wild animal (or gathering its eggs) as opposed to breeding it does not mean it starts out with a clean genetic slate by any means.

 

Whew. Okey doke, ranty rantiness of summed up feelings on inconsequential matters is done now.

 

[thiefofhearts]

One point here. In a barter system such as DC, no one "charges" anything for a dragon. We can ask whatever we want in trade. That doesn't mean we're going to get it. Yes, of course we always want the best stuff we can get. Sometimes trades are asked that appear very uneven to me. That doesn't mean the person asking is doomed to disappointment. It seems unlikely that anyone will give them what they're asking, but you never know. The "value" of an offer is completely subjective.

 

So for you, thiefofhearts, if you offered a trade on a cb gold (this is supposition, remember) and someone offered you a "second gen" tinsel whose parents had been killed, you would automatically say no because you dislike the tombstones. For you, it wouldn't be an even trade. But for someone else maybe they'd think they'd gotten a very good deal.

 

I saw someone asking for a cb gold in exchange for a cb pink and a (Something unbreedable - dunt remember wut) Personally, I doubt the person gets what they're asking for. But you never know.

Exactly so, madam (sir?).

 

something to think about: I'm pretty sure CB eggs don't just materialise out of nowhere. They'd have to have parents, too, albeit parents we know nothing about, and that aren't part of the game. If it can be argued that dragons with dead parents could be secretly high gen or inbred, the same could be said for caveborns.

 

Actually they do. They are randomly (well, maybe not so much since they have to follow ratios, but within that it's random - sort of) generated by a function TJ built. We don't have access to the parents because they don't exists. Theoretically they have to birth from a dragon because that makes sense to us as people, but in reality they were born from a program in order to fill a quota.

 

Fake gen dragons still have long lineages, it's just the link to the proof has been broken. They exists, you just can't prove it. Or the players can't. No idea if TJ can. Maybe you can appreciate and justify people going out of their way to kill dragons for the sake of "beauty" but I can't. Tombstones in a "pretty" lineage is as valuable to me as an inbred dragon is to those that hate them. To them an inbred is "yucky" and doesn't deserve a spot in their scroll and to me fake gen dragons are a lie and I'd rather not consciously trade for them.

 

@Goslander - To illustrate my point I actually saw someone offering a 3rd gen gold tinsel or regular gold, I'm not sure which since it was several hours ago, but for the sake of arguement let's say it was a tinsel. Ok so there was a 3rd gen gold tinsel up for trade - only the grandparents were both dead.

 

It was clearly not a 3rd gen tinsel. maybe by your definition it's a 3rd gen tinsel and you think that it's not scamming people by saying so, but I would want nothing to do with that trade and there's lots of other people that feel the same. i'll just go to the next trade listing that doesn't try to pass something off for something it's not.

 

And CB eggs don't have lineages FYI, and generations aren't just about pictures. See my above explanation.

[DarkEternity]

I don't care about pseudo short gens. If people choose to kill the tinsels that I gift/trade then that is their decision and their loss, so too is the decision to wipe the lineage clean. As long as they understand that they may lose the lineage asset, but gain cleaner offspring then I am fine with that. If, however, they kill the dragon without producing offspring then I feel that it is a wasted gift/trade on their side.

 

Who am I to judge what people do with their dragons? If it is no longer on my scroll then I am no longer responsible for it.

 

If I trade, then it is my responsibility alone to check the lineage. Same goes for real life. Honestly, the trader can charge whatever they like for it (again, the same as real life). Is it a scam? Scams exist in real life. Attempting to get a good bargain is part of the inheritently flawed human condition. It is why we can buy goods in the first place! If a person could not benefit from a trade, why trade?

 

Even if you constituted it as a scam...

 

A trade is only formed when both sides agree that a 'good' deal is a 'good' deal. We are only talking about what the forum collectively 'assumes' to be a good deal. For example, my brother is not a forum user. To him, all black dragons are black dragons and there is no notion of oh this is a CB dragon. It is only my perception of an 'inbred dragon' that motivates him to avoid inbreeding.

 

Thus, 'values' are very subjective. For example, he was perfectly willing to exchange a tinsel egg for a hatchling.

 

Does this exchange constitute a scam on my part?

 

On both sides, we were perfectly well informed. My brother also does business studies. In real life, he informs me that supposed 'scamming' really only has an economic impact on genuine manufacturers.

 

But we are playing DragCave! A virtual pet site with no 'genuine' manufacturers to speak of!

 

Sure, there are values. These values are embedded by us. We represent, what 0.00000001% of the total DC players. Arguably, we are essentially the minority.

 

That's like telling the other 99.999999999999% that they're being scammed (regularly) and that if they are not following our code of, well, 'ethics' that the moderators will step in.

 

Really, if the moderators and all of us spent so much time being 'in tune' with fluctuating market values and supposed scams, no one would actually have enough time to 1) play the game the way we choose to play it 2) ensure that the forum runs smoothly.

 

Seriously, if trading 'values' represents such an enormous issue then perhaps it would be so much simpler to remove the Teleport BSA anyway.

 

Now that I think of it, 'fake' gens weren't so much of a problem when trading was a glitch.

[angelmischa]

Doesn't change the fact that it's still a counterfeit/lie/scam/fake/whatever but if the person "paying" doesn't care, then it doesn't matter.

You keep referring to it as a "scam". A "scam" is a "dishonest scheme". There has been no dishonesty between the parties, so I can only assume that what you are really getting at is that it's a scam on you/other people who put in the effort to breed 'real' low-gens for trading or otherwise, rather than making 'pseudo' ones. If you think that such lies/counterfeits/fakes cheapen 'real' low-gens, or don't deserve the same rewards that 'real' ones do, that is one thing, but neither of the trade parties are actually the victim of a dishonest scheme, so let's call a spade a spade! (Sorry, but words mean things, and I like to try to keep it that way!)

 

If there is concern for newbies, then this information could be included in some of the help/faq sites. Of course, the specific trade threads are also welcome to change their rules to specify "no pseudo-gens" or what-have-you.

 

As orderofchaos points out, there could be a market for particular lineages in this whole pseudo-gen business. I'd certainly be happy to get in on it!

 

In general, I did once kill off dragons that I hadn't personally bred or caught, but I did not kill off the whole of their offspring (esp. when they were rares!), so I do have some dragons that are 'unintentionally' 'pseudo'-gens. I don't really mind having them, and I don't care enough about trading or lineages to have tried to trade any of their offspring, but I would just try to see what I could on the trade threads if I did. Just like with any other dragon!

 

I'm also absolutely with goslander, though, that if the description fits, it should be used (words mean things again!). Again, though, if the real concern is that the breeder hasn't gone to enough effort to get the particular gen, then that seems to me a bit petty and elitist when all we're doing is lining up pixels in a particular order! The concern with having tombstones in lineages is, to my mind, more valid because some people are very bothered by the idea of killing things. Either way, if you don't want tombstones in a lineage, don't offer to trade.

Edited August 2, 2011 by angelmischa

[DarkEternity]

Moreover, even if we were to enforce this change, many people don't even read the TOS, rules, help, FAQ and they're there in big bold red letters...

[Wiz]

When have I said anything about gifts?

 

I haven't, and I don't know why you keep bringing it up. Everything I've talked about has been about trading, including my personal feelings about why I look at psuedo low gens as a scam. For. Trading.

 

You are the one who brought up why it wasn't scamming for gifts, and when I responded about that specific instance. For. Gifts. (ex: "Beggars can't be choosers")

 

So I'm really not sure where you are coming from with the "killing gifts", except left field. Please stop twisting my words around, it's very unbecoming. =/

Why are you being so rude? I'm trying to have a nice polite chat and I see no reason for your attitude. If I use the word gift it's because that is what I'm used to because that is what I do. I certainly haven't gotten abusive over your continued accusations of lying and scamming about other peoples method of play. Extend the same courtesy please.

[drabrugon]

I do not kill my dragons to get pseudo-gens, but I have some of them on my scroll because the owner of the parents killed them or their scroll was burned. I do not care if dragons are pseudo-gens, but I would never create them myself.

 

I think that it is sad that some people here are speaking of scamming and lying regarding these type of lineages. Nobody is forced to trade for such a dragon. You can look at the lineage and make your decision if its worth your part of the trade or not. It is your own fault if you do not look at the lineage page. And - a third gen is a third gen if that is what the lineage page shows! And a caveborn dragon is only a caveborn because its lineage is unkown and the parents are not owned by someone.

 

Regarding the example of the Tinsel with the dead grandparents I would like to say that it is very likely that there will be lots of pseudo-gen Tinsels in the future. Everybody wants a low gen Tinsel, but this is impossible if you look at the number of CB Tinsels and the users who are wanting one. Some Tinsels allready have extreme long lineages now. You can not make a lineage pattern with these Tinsels because it is impossible to get a mate for a 13th even gen over night. Even stairstep lineages are not wanted anymore when they reach the 100th gen. To make a lineage shorter is not cheating or scamming because everybody here knows what a tombstone means.

 

 

[Merenwen]

I posted earlier and did like the pseudo look

but I also wouldn't call it being scammed, I know a tombstone means dead

and that I have no way of knowing what gen it was, but would still take the egg

as it was a nice catch.

 

I have a tinsel with 2 tombstones in it's line

I have no idea if it is a zombie, was killed to put off inbred

was killed so the dragon could mate with another dragon without committing adultry (hey never know how a person role plays right )

was deleted due to improper name

scroll burned

whatever

 

all I know is that it is a silver tinsel(dorkface) and I love it, it was worth every single hatchling I hatched and raised for it. When I give away her eggs, I should hope someone would want them and love them, if not, more tinsel for me

[tjekan]

It's not a scam, but it *is* kind of a glitch exploit. It's entirely possible that eventually TJ might decide to close the loophole by making a dead dragon's ancestors appear on their lineage page. Easy come, easy go, you know?

[Imbecamiel]

It's not a scam, but it *is* kind of a glitch exploit. It's entirely possible that eventually TJ might decide to close the loophole by making a dead dragon's ancestors appear on their lineage page. Easy come, easy go, you know?

Actually, I think that the current arrangement is a fix of a former glitch/unwanted-by-TJ-system. If I recall correctly, up until a year or so ago ancestors of dead dragons used to continue to appear in lineages... Or is my memory tricking me there? Anyone else remember?

[sanderj]

It's not a scam, but it *is* kind of a glitch exploit. It's entirely possible that eventually TJ might decide to close the loophole by making a dead dragon's ancestors appear on their lineage page. Easy come, easy go, you know?

I don't think it's a glitch - the lineage disapears because the code is used for an other dragon. I believe it is made that way so dead dragons don't stay at your scroll for ever. It can't be unmade without giving a dragon a lineage that is not the original to beginn with.

 

Let's say dragon xyzz was a silver with long lineage and was killend and the code entered the pool again and became a pink - the hypotetical silver with a dead parent would be a after unmaking that "glitch" a silver with a pink parent and it might have two mothers or two fathers. If one could find out the original code that is.

 

On the other hand it could be removed and the code once given would not be used again like with zombies.

 

But honestly - I like short lineages and I do not mind a tombstone or more in a lineage. I do not think it is cheating to kill of a dragon to "clean" a lineage. I did that myself because I tossed a lot of inbreeds in the AP when I was a newbie and like to undo my mistakes as good as I can.

 

Dragoncave is about to play your scroll as you like isn't it? If people like to make short lineages by killing their dragons then they are free to do so in my oppinion as others are free to toss a ton of inbreed peebles in the AP.

 

Nobody makes you to take and keep a dragon with a lineage you don't want.

Edited August 4, 2011 by sanderj

[Ashes The Second]

I agree with the above post. Play the game you want, and stop worrying about how other people play. It won't help anything, except to make you worry about eggs that aren't even yours. If I were you and I had a rare, I wouldn't care /what/ other people had to say about my lineages. I have stupidly good rare lineages, and then stupidly bad ones. So? Does that affect my dragons kin in any way? Why is it anyone else's business on what you do/don't do with /your/ dragons? If you want to trade, you'd better expect/acceptt the consequences of trading.

 

/endrant

[w4rg4zm]

I have one silver that's like that. I didn't kill his parents, but noticed sometime along the line that either someone did or their scroll was burned, so he looks like a 2nd gen. I'm never sure what to call it when I make trade offers from offspring, would it be 3rd gen or not? Calling it 3rd gen outright sounds kind of like cheating, but I don't know if anyone would really care that the parents are tombstones. I might try and get another similar lineage to match as a mate but either way I don't think it's much of a big deal, I'd consider it whatever gen it appears to be even if there are ancestors beyond the dead ones not visible, after all CB dragons have to have had parents that we just don't know about so it's sort of the same deal.

[cabri]

I've picked up a few of these "trimmed" lineages, I've always assumed they're hiding inbreeding and either drop them back on the AP or freeze the hatchies.

[Fuzzbucket]

Yes - I assume that too - but I don't dump them; if I wanted them enough to pick them up (assuming I wasn't looking for something specific, like the lovely little 2nd gen balloon x waverunner I got the other day which filled a hole in a lineage ! I was hoping/looking for an AP CB - this was better !) I want them enough to keep them !

 

And yes - we play the way we play. No coercion wanted or needed. I would prefer to see the full lineage show - deceased or not - but we know how it is and we can live with that.

[Xylene]

I'd kill any dragon to make pseudo low-gens... but not because 'it makes them pretty'. Rather, I just like the idea of pseudo second-gens with the whole 'CB' line being tombstones. Pure tombstones, or Zombies! How many people have lineages like THAT? (Actually, I've seen maybe 5-7. I loooved them because they were so unique.) Also, there's the hilarity of people spazzing out over me killing shinies/tinsels/killing in general.

 

I technically have killed two 'messy' dragons, a 2nd-gen vine bred to my CB silver and a 5th-gen Skywing bred to a different CB silver. Technically, except that was my cousin. Still, it made the lineages nicer so I was torn between being annoyed and happy.

 

I'm a bad person.

[tjekan]

I don't think it's a glitch - the lineage disapears because the code is used for an other dragon. I believe it is made that way so dead dragons don't stay at your scroll for ever. It can't be unmade without giving a dragon a lineage that is not the original to beginn with.

 

Let's say dragon xyzz was a silver with long lineage and was killend and the code entered the pool again and became a pink - the hypotetical silver with a dead parent would be a after unmaking that "glitch" a silver with a pink parent and it might have two mothers or two fathers. If one could find out the original code that is.

Right, but now that TJ moved to 5-digit codes, he'd never have to recycle codes again if he didn't want to, so for 5-digit dragons this situation could, theoretically, change at any time.

 

That means that the nice "3rd-gen stairstep" tinsel somebody traded a CB silver for might turn right back into a 17th-gen unorganized inbred at any given moment.

 

Caveat emptor... :-)

[Sir Barton]

Regarding the example of the Tinsel with the dead grandparents I would like to say that it is very likely that there will be lots of pseudo-gen Tinsels in the future.

This is true and I find that fact very sad because people will never know what tinsel their baby traces back to. To me it's kinda like the lost Dorkfaces but worse because it's highly doubtful that there will be any sort of record bank that will help a person trace their altered tinsel to it's original line. I'm not even a lineage person but knowing that there are only 30 original tinsels it would be nice to know who yours came from since the tinsels are a lineage onto themselves and creating fake low generations does a significant amount of damage to those lineages.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Sir Barton

[Goslander]

Just a silly question that suddenly popped in my head: If I breed a second gen dragon from legitimate CB dragons and kill off the CBs, is the offspring still considered a pseudo low gen just because his CB parents are dead? I'm thinking of doing this . . . making an even gen lineage of legitimate low gens who appear to be pseudo low gens (at the very least, it would make for a glorious moment of outraged dignity the first time anyone accused me of being a scammer ).

[Saloiq]

Just a silly question that suddenly popped in my head: If I breed a second gen dragon from legitimate CB dragons and kill off the CBs, is the offspring still considered a pseudo low gen just because his CB parents are dead? I'm thinking of doing this . . . making an even gen lineage of legitimate low gens who appear to be pseudo low gens (at the very least, it would make for a glorious moment of outraged dignity the first time anyone accused me of being a scammer ).

That would be awesome. <3

[Sir Barton]

Just a silly question that suddenly popped in my head: If I breed a second gen dragon from legitimate CB dragons and kill off the CBs, is the offspring still considered a pseudo low gen just because his CB parents are dead? I'm thinking of doing this . . . making an even gen lineage of legitimate low gens who appear to be pseudo low gens (at the very least, it would make for a glorious moment of outraged dignity the first time anyone accused me of being a scammer ).

Yep, would still be a pseudo low gen because you couldn't prove it was a real 2nd gen any more.

[lola92]

I don't mind it

i'm actually planning on doing that with one of my mess lineaged stair steps but then changing it to moonstone x silver tinsel just because i know i have no chance at getting a 2nd gen from the real dragons... would i tell people it is a real 2nd/3rd gen no.. but it is classed as a 2nd/3rd gen if they asked me about the dead dragon i would show the past lineage.

[littleangelamy22]

I see no problem with psuedo low-gens. I love even-gens, so if it made the lineage even then that'd be amazing. It's quite interesting, although it can spoil a gaia a bit in some cases, but otherwise I'm all for it. It's not a scam becuase it's clear that it could have been any gen. To me it looks like a low-gen, so that's what matters.