Pseudo Low-Gen Dragons

[tjekan]

I feel the same way about them as I feel about counterfeit coins: just because they look like something desirable doesn't mean they are. They're just fakes and I don't want them.

This. It makes them look hokey to me. Some people may be fooled by them, but I'm not. I'd actually much rather have a messy 12th-gen gold tinsel than one whose owner killed its parents to try to trick people into thinking it's a 3rd-gen. :-)

 

That said, I don't have any ETHICAL objection to it. We already kill dragons to get zombies and vampires all the time, or to try and make neglecteds. If some people just happen to like the way tombstones look on their lineage page, then more power to them. I just personally think it looks kinda cheesy, and it's nothing I'd want on my own scroll.

Edited July 30, 2011 by tjekan

[altan]

I personally think it's cheating when those dragons show up for trading as staircase or any other desirable lineage.

 

[Ifni]

I personally think it's cheating when those dragons show up for trading as staircase or any other desirable lineage.

I'm confused as to how it can be "cheating" when you can see the lineage clearly? "Staircase" just describes how the lineage looks imo, a staircase of tombstones is still a staircase. Now, if they don't show you the lineage before you agree to trade with them, okay, but that seems a bit strange anyway, if you care about lineage.

[Sorrowgrave]

When ever I'm gifted or trading a rare or black I breed it first, then if the egg is the same kind breed that egg to a CB then kill it and raise the third rare from that line as one of my dragons.

 

How else do you get "CB" black alts? other than winning that contest or being TJ I mean.

[Wookieinmashoo]

I'm confused as to how it can be "cheating" when you can see the lineage clearly? "Staircase" just describes how the lineage looks imo, a staircase of tombstones is still a staircase. Now, if they don't show you the lineage before you agree to trade with them, okay, but that seems a bit strange anyway, if you care about lineage.

I don't see how people would consider it "cheating" either. I have never once seen someone pawn off a doctored lineage as a normal one. The prize dragons threw a new wench into the system and if I can't find a way to get second gens to complete my lineage, then I will make the ones I have fit in one way or another.

[dragongrrl]

I'm confused as to how it can be "cheating" when you can see the lineage clearly? "Staircase" just describes how the lineage looks imo, a staircase of tombstones is still a staircase. Now, if they don't show you the lineage before you agree to trade with them, okay, but that seems a bit strange anyway, if you care about lineage.

To my perspective, it isn't a true staircase, a single line of descendants with CB mates. The dead dragons had parents, maybe grandparents, maybe a lot more. Just because one dragon was killed, it doesn't mean it isn't still part of another, maybe quite massive, lineage, i.e., the lost Dorkfaces and Thuweds. I do human genealogy as well, and we don't become unrelated to our grandparents just because our parents die. There's always a story in those tombstones.

 

By the way, saw an egg with an almost even gen appearance in an attempted trade. The flaw? The pair of dead dragons sitting above the line of 127 CB dragons and 1 psuedo CB. All the other lines were so beautiful, and then there's this dead bump on top. At least that breeder labeled it "almost even gen."

[Goslander]

Please point out where I said that players shouldn't be allowed to kill their dragons to make a fake lower gen.

Huh? I wasn't aware I had implied that. I was just pointing out that feeling concerned about altering scrolls doesn't make sense considering naming alters scrolls in a much more significant way.

[Ifni]

By the way, saw an egg with an almost even gen appearance in an attempted trade. The flaw? The pair of dead dragons sitting above the line of 127 CB dragons and 1 psuedo CB. All the other lines were so beautiful, and then there's this dead bump on top. At least that breeder labeled it "almost even gen."

This is a digression, but if it was one of the lines descended from Commondant Lassard, there's a good reason for that: he was a genuine CB alt black (due to a glitch), but when alerted to the existence of the glitch, TJ changed him to Parents: Deceased. I know quite a few people who were annoyed when their pretty even-gen tinsels with a CB alt black in the lineage suddenly developed a "dead bump" on top.

 

I agree I wouldn't value an egg from that line as highly as an even gen, but that's because it's not an even gen - I'd be fine with an egg that looked even-gen but had a bunch of tombstones where the CBs should be. Of course, that's just my personal take on it, it's fine for others to feel differently.

[Psykotika]

It doesn't bother me, but I can see why people could be upset at a trade if they didn't know what it was.

 

I have a lost dorkface. Those were not done on purpose, but from one person with 7 scrolls that was VERY active and got busted. Unfortunately, it was one of my best magma breeders and I gifted those eggs like nuts. But I don't see that as the same as someone going out of their way to make their own specific lineage.

 

How many weeks does it take for the tombstones to disappear anyway? And isn't one of the silver tinsel lines killing all the mates?

2 weeks from the day of death, and I'm doing one of the lines with the killing this is my most recent egg and I killed Wages's mate after getting 3 silver tinsels from it, because one dead dragon in the line looks so out of place, I decided to checker it instead. I think there's a few with solid deaths down that line too, but I could be wrong.

I've "prettied" a few lineages with killing, they're just pixels, and since the DC community places such importance on "prettiness" I find I kind of have to in order to have anything worth trading. (since the majority of my real low gens don't feel like breeding)

I don't much care if a dragon is fake or real low gens, for all we know the real CB's are the product of Billy Joe and his cousin Milly May from the wild.

[Sir Barton]

Huh? I wasn't aware I had implied that. I was just pointing out that feeling concerned about altering scrolls doesn't make sense considering naming alters scrolls in a much more significant way.

Sorry that I miss understood but that is what I got from "That's hardly an argument against allowing players to name bred dragons they catch..."

 

In the end it just comes down to perspective and personal taste. I don't see someone naming or not naming an offspring from my dragons as having any effect on my scroll. Either I'll just have the code listed or if I get lucky I'll be amused by a name. Either way the dragon is still represented on my scroll so nothing has really changed. If someone kills that offspring it eventually disappears. I would like to know how many offspring my dragons have and being able to check the parent's scroll would be the least labor intensive way to do that but that is basically impossible since I share them with others. I find it a pity when a newbie makes mistakes and the egg or hatchie dies of natural causes but as I said I would be annoyed if I somehow found out that it was intentionally killed to make a lineage prettier. I would rather it die in a neglected experiment because then the owner was at least trying to turn the dragon itself into something interesting instead of casting it to the side just to make it's offspring more appealing.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Sir Barton

[chocorose]

I actually really like long, messy lineages, so long as there's no inbreeding. This is one of my favourite dragons.

[vegetariancannibal]

meh. I'm not really bothered. On one hand I would never do that to my own dragons (I care for them far too much), and I see how it could cause distress to the owner of the parents/grandparents, but on the other hand it's up to people what they do with their dragons, and tombstones in lineages don't bother me much.

 

Each to their own, I suppose.

[Susurrant]

I've never done this to my own dragons because I prefer having no tombstones in lineages, but a few of my dragons have dead parents. I picked my gold up a while ago and she was horribly inbred, but now both her parents were killed. Two of my alt blacks also had their parents killed.

[thiefofhearts]

You know I don't get how people can't see you are basically lying about your dragon if you kill the parents then offer it as "x" gen dragon, unless of course, you either do this yourself or have taken dragons under this assumption.

 

If you have a tenth gen, messy lineage inbred dragon, it doesn't suddenly become "clean" because both parents are dead - you just don't have access to that information since the codes get swapped out of the data bank.

 

It's like saying you have a "real" Dorkface dragon when they don't have Midas Dorkface in their lineage. I mean it's just about looks right? I mean who cares if it's not 100% official?

 

Get my point?

 

Anyone can write Dorkface on their dragon's name, but what makes it "valuable" is lineage. Anything else is a lie.

 

Anyone can kill a dragon's parents and claim it to be "x" generation, but what makes a real "x" generation dragon valuable is the lineage. Anything else is a lie.

 

When I see tombstones in a "valuable" dragon's lineage that is being offer in a trade it's an immediate turn off and I think it's really not what is being offered, must be long lineaged, messy inbred.

 

It's really sad when I go into trade threads and I see someone offering super messy lineage dragons and ask for really valuable eggs and then turn around as say "oh don't worry, it doesn't look like 'this' kind of dragon, but I'm going to kill the parents after the trade so it's really 'this' kind of dragon!"

 

It's like basically announcing that you are going to scam people and some people actually buy into it. SMH. Pixels or not, you are basically trying to get "something for nothing" and lying to do so, and I think that is what most of the nay-sayers have against "pseudo-low gen" dragons.

[SolarCat]

I don't really care. I think zombies in lineages are cool, and dead dragons in the lineage don't really bother me, at least for the most part.

 

Sometimes a dead dragon in the lineage does spoil things, but that's only if it goes against whatever organization the lineage of the dragon was trying to achieve. If it adds to the lineage, and makes it more aesthetically pleasing, then it doesn't bother me.

 

That said, I do recognize that others don't feel the same way, and so if I were to offer up a dragon with a dead dragon in the lineage as a trade or a gift, I would specify that it had dead ancestors.

[Wiz]

<snip>

 

It's really sad when I go into trade threads and I see someone offering super messy lineage dragons and ask for really valuable eggs and then turn around as say "oh don't worry, it doesn't look like 'this' kind of dragon, but I'm going to kill the parents after the trade so it's really 'this' kind of dragon!"

 

It's like basically announcing that you are going to scam people and some people actually buy into it. SMH. Pixels or not, you are basically trying to get "something for nothing" and lying to do so, and I think that is what most of the nay-sayers have against "pseudo-low gen" dragons.

I can't see how you can accuse a person in this situation of lying. They are being upfront about what they are going to do. If the person who accepts the trade is happy then who are you to say they are being scammed? They know all the facts and they can turn down the trade if they don't like it.

 

I realise pseudo lineages are not for everyone. Some people like them, some people don't and others don't care one way or another.

 

Just this week I gifted a metallic. I warned the person I offered it to that I was going to kill off one of the parents and if they didn't like tombstones in a lineage then it wasn't the egg for them. They weren't scammed, they made an informed choice. Just like the people in your scenario made an informed choice.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Wiz

[thiefofhearts]

I can't see how you can accuse a person in this situation of lying. They are being upfront about what they are going to do. If the person who accepts the trade is happy then who are you to say they are being scammed? They know all the facts and they can turn down the trade if they don't like it.

 

I realise pseudo lineages are not for everyone. Some people like them, some people don't and others don't care one way or another.

 

Just this week I gifted a metallic. I warned the person I offered it to that I was going to kill off one of the parents and if they didn't like tombstones in a lineage then it wasn't the egg for them. They weren't scammed, they made an informed choice. Just like the people in your scenario made an informed choice.

Gifts and picking things up from the AP are different from trying to trade. Beggars can't be choosers so it's pretty hard to scam someone when the item is free.

 

If you say you have a 4th gen dragon but it's really something like a 20th gen dragon, guess what, if you kill a parent it's still a 20th gen dragon, you are just using a tombstone to hide the other generations. You wouldn't ask for a CB stripe or black if that tombstone wasn't there, now would you?

 

How other people conduct their trades is their own business but to me and several other people, it's still lying. You are asking for items worth a nice 4th gen dragon but you aren't offering a nice 4th gen dragon. It's the same as offering a Dorkface dragon by just writing "Dorkface" in the name slot. Everyone can see through it and some people may not mind it but it's still a lie.

 

Good for the people that like it but I'd rather keep my own dragons that trade it off to someone who might kill it in the future to make "pretty" offspring.

[Wiz]

Killing a gift is just plain rude. Dragons I kill have the parents on my scroll. I've only ever killed one dragon whose parents were not on my scroll and that was an honest mistake. I still feel guilty even though it was an AP catch.

thiefofhearts you obviously come under the heading of people who don't like pseudo lineages. Each to their own. Me I like making pretty patterns and sometimes those patterns include tombstones.

[thiefofhearts]

Killing a gift is just plain rude. Dragons I kill have the parents on my scroll. I've only ever killed one dragon whose parents were not on my scroll and that was an honest mistake. I still feel guilty even though it was an AP catch.

thiefofhearts you obviously come under the heading of people who don't like pseudo lineages. Each to their own. Me I like making pretty patterns and sometimes those patterns include tombstones.

When have I said anything about gifts?

 

I haven't, and I don't know why you keep bringing it up. Everything I've talked about has been about trading, including my personal feelings about why I look at psuedo low gens as a scam. For. Trading.

 

You are the one who brought up why it wasn't scamming for gifts, and when I responded about that specific instance. For. Gifts. (ex: "Beggars can't be choosers")

 

So I'm really not sure where you are coming from with the "killing gifts", except left field. Please stop twisting my words around, it's very unbecoming. =/

[Amur_Rama]

I actually don't mind this. Though, I'm also one of those people who actually mind long-lineaged dragons, unless they're in some kind of configuration (long stairstep, arrowhead, pb, descending gen, etc...), but frankly I hate having a lineage so long that it pushes the actual dragon down the page. I don't like to have to scroll that much to check what an egg is when I click the lineage.

 

So false gen dragons don't bother me, because they remove the clutter. And they're easy and obvious to spot. Tombstones? Ah, it's a false gen, like a CB vampire isn't really a CB vampire but just one made from a cave egg.

 

The only people I see this bothering are those who still want to flip their dragon's offspring for a "profit". Heaven forbid someone else doesn't want to pay their high rates for a "true" 5th gen, when a "false" 5th gen looks and breeds exactly like it further on. I get it, you're brand name and you're pissed someone's selling generics for the same high price (though that's a different kettle of fish. If you're trading with something you've altered, you don't have the right to charge for it like it was the original, especially if the person interested has enough sense to notice it).

 

Frankly anyone who is picky about that kind of thing simply wouldn't trade for one. *shrugs* Me? I'm fine with it, so long as the greed doesn't follow it (but who are we kidding, it will).

 

[vegetariancannibal]

Oh please. No serious player is going to try and fool someone into thinking an egg with dead parents is a true low-gen. And the main reason that even-gens (or staircases or whatever) are "valuable" in the first place is because they can make even-gen (or staircase or whatever) children.

 

Yes, it's obvious it's not a true even-gen/low-gen. But that, as well as the fact that breeding a certain lineage style takes time, means that the "counterfeits" will never be as valuable as the "genuine" even-gens/low-gens.

 

The reason I am not too bothered is because:

1. I have never seen any evidence of scamming.

2. Scamming using this method would be nearly impossible.

3. The reason people make patterns in their lineages is for purely aesthetic purposes. Therefore it doesn't make much of a difference if there are tombstones or not, as the main goal is to have a nice shape.

 

It all depends on how you play the game and your personal preferences. Some people want a straight line across the top of their lineage and don't care about tombstones, some want that straight line but prefer to wait longer for a true even-gen. Some people don't care about lineages at all and just like looking at the pictures on their scroll.

[Imbecamiel]

When have I said anything about gifts?

 

I haven't, and I don't know why you keep bringing it up. Everything I've talked about has been about trading, including my personal feelings about why I look at psuedo low gens as a scam. For. Trading.

 

You are the one who brought up why it wasn't scamming for gifts, and when I responded about that specific instance. For. Gifts. (ex: "Beggars can't be choosers")

 

So I'm really not sure where you are coming from with the "killing gifts", except left field. Please stop twisting my words around, it's very unbecoming. =/

But the thing is, how can it actually be a scam when it's obvious to anyone who cares to look? Value is almost entirely in the eye of the beholder, here. If, say, I view a fake fourth-gen dragon as valuable because I like the way the lineage looks - and am willing to offer valuable items in return - than no one is scammed.

 

The only time when I can see this being an actual scam is in the case of someone who either doesn't care enough to look at the dragon's lineage (in which case, it's unlikely they care in the first place), or in the case of a newbie who's not aware that the earlier dragons in a lineage disappear after one's killed. In which case... it might be an unintentional scam, but it also less likely that anyone that new will be able to get their hands on something really valuable to exchange.

 

I don't see how something like that in trading can be considered a scam when both people can look at exactly what they're getting, are therefore aware that the dragon is not a true low-gen (or that it's very unlikely it is, and that it couldn't be proven to be one even if it was), and therefore can decide whether they're willing to give what's being asked for it.

 

I have never once seen someone try to pass something off as a true low-gen when both parents are killed... And in the case of, say, stairstep lineages - firstly, in my opinion lineage names like that are only a description of what the lineage looks like anyway. *shrug* But secondly, again, anyone trading can see what it is, and therefore there's no actual deception involved. If they don't like the look of that, then... they don't have to trade for it.

 

(I myself have never killed a dragon to "fix" or pretty a lineage, but I have traded for ones with alternating-tombstone stairstep lineages, and cut-off "false" low lineages - because I thought the pattern looked interesting, in the first case, and in the second because the short lineage gave me more room for establishing my own breeding pattern. I knew exactly what I was getting, and considered it worth the price being asked.)

Edited August 2, 2011 by Imbecamiel

[thiefofhearts]

(though that's a different kettle of fish. If you're trading with something you've altered, you don't have the right to charge for it like it was the original, especially if the person interested has enough sense to notice it)

 

This is my point exactly! If it's something in the AP, or a gift or your personal lineage project or whatever that's one thing but when you have, say a 10th gen Silver, kill off the parents, breed it, and label the egg as a 3rd gen metallic, to me that's a lie. It's especially bad if the person in question is asking for real rares in return like a CB Stripe.

 

@vegetariancannibal - people who are new to the forums (i dont just mean newbies in general, I mean even older players who just haven't joined the forums until recently and may not know how things work) could be fooled, though. Or for that matter, maybe just someone who didn't understand how the tombstone worked. They could easily assume that grandparents might still show up. They be wrong, but unless someone tells them otherwise they could easily assume that.

 

There's lots of people here (as you can read through the posts) that take an "ugly" dragon and make it "pretty" specifically for "trading up", and yeah I think that's wrong. More than that though I don't think it's right that they would ask someone the exact same "price" they would for a real 3rd gen Silver, and there are people who really may not know the difference. You can believe me or not, honestly I don't care because I'm not here to champion the cause of "fair" trades - it's just pixels. To me, a dragon is a dragon, and I have messy lineages and inbreds all over my scroll. For me it's more of an integrity thing as I said before.

 

@Imbecamiel - I beg to differ on your point about the "unintentional scam". I've seen quite a few newbies catch CB blacks and they could easily be scammed out of it with a "fake" low gen dragon and not know the difference either way. Why we have a great community and the Mods are on the ball with problem solving that does not mean something like that can't happen.

 

If both people make an informed decision, by your description, then like I said in my post where you first replied to me, it's not my business what they do with their dragons. Good for them. Doesn't change the fact that it's still a counterfeit/lie/scam/fake/whatever but if the person "paying" doesn't care, then it doesn't matter.

 

Personally I don't like it and I don't have to like it, either. It's like plastic surgery for dragons almost. Give me the "ugly" more interesting dragon any day over the fake/plastic "pretty".

[Fiona]

If you're trading with something you've altered, you don't have the right to charge for it like it was the original

One point here. In a barter system such as DC, no one "charges" anything for a dragon. We can ask whatever we want in trade. That doesn't mean we're going to get it. Yes, of course we always want the best stuff we can get. Sometimes trades are asked that appear very uneven to me. That doesn't mean the person asking is doomed to disappointment. It seems unlikely that anyone will give them what they're asking, but you never know. The "value" of an offer is completely subjective.

 

So for you, thiefofhearts, if you offered a trade on a cb gold (this is supposition, remember) and someone offered you a "second gen" tinsel whose parents had been killed, you would automatically say no because you dislike the tombstones. For you, it wouldn't be an even trade. But for someone else maybe they'd think they'd gotten a very good deal.

 

I saw someone asking for a cb gold in exchange for a cb pink and a (Something unbreedable - dunt remember wut) Personally, I doubt the person gets what they're asking for. But you never know.

[qkurai]

I actually don't mind when this happens. I wouldn't go out of my way to do it, but, I have a few adult dragons with both parents deceased, and when I noticed that, I went right ahead and used them in lineages. I don't mind tombstones, and I like nice-looking lineages. So what if a gold or a silver or a vine is really 15th gen, but you lopped off 90%? A lot of the time it's what you can actually see on the lineage page that people care about. From what I've seen anyway. I'd love to have a 5+ even gen egg where all the founding dragons are tombstones.