Cave Feedback

[Cinnamin Draconna]

Just a suggestion:

Since breeding pixels is so upsetting to members. 

Perhaps we should do away with it and just get eggs from the cave. That way we wouldn't have to worry about ratios and members would just enjoy the game.

 

Breeding is the only reason I'm still playing dragon cave. Once you finish collecting all the publicly available sprites, there's nothing else to do but breed. Eliminating breeding would be the fastest way to completely kill the game that I can think of. That is NOT what we are asking for.

 

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Biomes are NOT working for me. When you get to the point where your basic collection is complete, and everything you need is for projects, finding the dragons you actually need has become a real PITA.

 

I don't hunt for rares anymore, I have all I need.. I need commons, but only particular commons. Currently, the ONLY dragons I actually need are caveborn stripes, caveborn nebulas (old ones, not the new ALTs) and caveborn hellfires. The nebulas and hellfires can be found when their biomes aren't blocked, but I haven't seen a caveborn stripe since the spitfires were released in the July 4 2010 Beat the Heat Egg Release. I was hoping that the biomes would make cb stripe hunting easier, but it didn't, because all TJ did was break the one cave down into 6 sub-caves.. he made no REAL changes like I was expecting. If the biomes actually refreshed when you hit F5 refresh, the blocking problem would be solved.. hit F5 > see 3 eggs > hit F5 > see 3 different eggs > etc. etc. The eggs would cycle until the point where if the same 3 eggs are showing, then that's all that's left.

 

Without some kind of changes, the Biomes are worthless to me.. so yes, I'd be very happy to return to a single cave, rather than being uber-frustrated by 5 blocked caves and 1 empty cave.

 

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But I think what really, really irks me is the secrecy revolving around how things actually work. The standard stock answer for practically everything is.. "It's all about the ratios." OK, fine... How do the ratios work? In laymans language please, and not computerese or confusing me with coding terms. Are the ratios based on percentages? arbitrary numbers? what?

 

And another thing.. what does the population of a breed have to do with it's rarity? Why are these two things linked? If something is rare, it should drop like a rare. If it's a common, they should drop all the time. Why should there be limits on how many of something there are? You can't put a limit on how many people play the game (new members join every day)... so why should any common breed of dragon have a population limit. Folk always need commons, and all commons should always be available regardless. Only uncommons and rares should have a limit, and it shouldn't be based on the overall population, but on how many dragons are actually dropped each hour/day.

 

And breeding shouldn't be linked to drops, that's like trying to control chaos and order at the same time. TJ can control how many eggs are created and dropped in the biomes... but there is no way to control who breeds what when. Therefore, the two functions should NOT be linked together. Breeding should be totally separate and based strictly on percentages for the success rates. Breeding can be controlled by the success rates, but should not be so unsuccessful as to be frustrating. I'm sure a happy medium can be reached if we just work together.. and not keep everything secret like it's a matter of National Security.

[ParticleSoup]

updates are fine but one thing ticked me off, I have to rename everything? Now names I had before I can't have cos someone else snagged them. Why have this restriction? Why not have people name their dragons anything (other than offensive things). For example, I had a red dragon named Raphael, he can't be renamed that cos someone else got it.

there's already conversation going on about that here.

 

the folks in the thread bring up valid points.

[Asra]

Personally, I adore the way things are now. With the Biomes and Teleport, it's excellent. People who are fast enough to catch rares can trade them safely for multiples of others, and without just a select few being able to grab. After all, I'm more likely to be the fastest in a group of 40 than a group of 200. I also see about a metallic a week, and I've caught a CB black - something I didn't expect to happen ever. Likewise with trios - I never even saw them before the change, and now I can grab them? Excellent! x3

 

As for the blocking, if people want the rares bad enough, they'll take the commons. e-e That's just how it works.

 

Naturally the "Only fast people can catch eggs! D:<" is going to happen. The alternative would be making EVERYONE slow, and...ugh. This is plenty for me.

 

Did I mention that the ability to trade more than one dragon at a time is beautiful? 'Cause it is.

 

Like everyone else, I am curious about the vampire thing, but I figure it'll even in time. I'm sure that's been echoed enough to make everyone sick.

 

Otherwise, I'm happy. :3

[Nectaris]

I agree that I like how fast the desert biome moves, and personally I wish the others moved at least a little faster. As such, I rarely even bother hunting anywhere but the AP after the drop finishes. I too have seen a good number of CB metalics go by and have even managed to catch a gold(before this, I have never caught one, the ones I have are traded).

 

 

[Fiona]

I do have a question about stripe ratios, and the current drought.

 

When black stripes were introduced I went from probably 1 or 2 striped eggs a week (out of numerous pairs) to zero. Like, right then.

 

I kind of assumed it was because everyone really wanted black stripes so everyone was breeding for black stripes. But stripes were being overbred long before the black stripe was introduced, and I still got eggs.

 

So my question is this: how does having multiple colors of a dragon affect their breeding rate and drop rate? Does a dragon breed that has multiple colors need a higher ratio to make room for the production of all the colors, or is that not a factor in the breed's general availability?

 

If having multiple colors of a dragon affects what ratio is needed to make the dragon appear at the intended rate, could stripe ratios be adjusted so there's room for all 5 colors in their ratio?

[olympe]

Regarding biomes: I think they are a good thing, even if it means we have many blocked caves now instead of one. The really good thing is that I actually see CB trios fairly regularly, although I fail to catch them as of yet. I haven't seen a single CB metallic yet, but I guess it's due to my connection.

 

Regarding breeding: I understand why rares actually breed as rares, and that's not something I'm willing to complain about. But breeding certain commons should be far easier. Also, I think that for color morphs, the ratios should be adjusted to reflect the number of colors. (Meaning: Since we got the 5th stripe color, we should get 125% of the original number of stripe eggs.)

 

Regarding vampires: Could you please give us official ratios or something to make sense of the new bite success rates?

 

Regarding ratios: Do you think you could give us something of a ratios tool, similar to the one that used to be on Silvi's? Because in many cases, it makes us understand what is going on. (For example, I was close to saying something against neotropicals being too common. Then I looked at the stats on Silvi's, and saw that neos were one of the rarest common breeds. This told me that neos weren't über-common, but that people simply refused to raise them for whatever reasons they have, and that complaining about it wouldn't do anybody any good anyway.)

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(Please don't turn my example into a hate-fest for any kind of dragon. As a matter of fact, I actually like neos and have a bunch of them.)

[00n0b0dy]

Sort of echoing olympe, in that post you quoted from TJ in the first page, it says he's got all these handy tools that count the numbers and make graphs. I'd love if those, even some of those, were available somewhere. Numbers make me feel more certain about things, and it's irritating that even with huge sample sizes, the numbers and statistics we come up with are never accurate. I'd love if somewhere there was a list of numbers for the populations, or a graph of those numbers. I realize it could be a lot of strain to constantly be updating that, but even just a once a day or once a week update on where things are site-wide would make me feel like there was actually some open-ness about how things are going with the mysterious ratios and populations.

[TJ09]

Numbers without context also lie. People will be constantly going "THERE WAS A BLIP WHAT HAPPENED?!"

[Reginea9]

I can appreciate that the ratios may be out of whack and may need tweaking to be fixed/corrected.

 

I recall one other time - back when we got multiple eggs from breeding one could get more then one rare in a breeding - two, three or even four golds/silvers. TJ tweaked it to correct the ratios and for a few months the rares were rare and hard to come by.

 

Then breeding was set to basically get one egg if any at all from breedings. That was fine.

 

Now we are told the ratios are out of whack again and rares are no longer rare again. But when I can breed twenty odd gold dragons a week and perhaps only get one gold from them - then yes in my eyes it is still rare because 19 breedings or more ended in no egg or a common one. 1 out of 20 breedings ending in rare. That sounds like rare odds to me.

 

Since the black stripe have come out - what three or four months ago - I have bred no golds and only one silver. I gift my rares to those who have trouble getting CB. Would be nice to get rares now that teleport is in but obviously must wait - for what another 4 months? A year?

 

The blacks and stripes are not breeding well either. Now the black stripe is a fairly new colour of stripe dragon. White/red/green/blue have been around. But still the black stripe is a fairly new egg but people can't seem to get them either. Is it because the stripe - black stripe though colour is not accepted as new just because it is different colouring?

 

Yes, black eggs used to fill the AP - but now what eggs fill the AP? - fog eggs, pebble eggs etc. ( Pebble now there is a common that seems massively produced in breeding and in the cave.) In other words remove one problem from the AP and another will fill it's space and there are many out there who fill the need to mass breed all their dragons clogging the AP up even though they have their limit.

 

Maybe, something could be done to limit breeding of dragons if you are at your limit of eggs? But then people would abandon first and keep what they want.

Ooh, you totally expressed my opinion. I don't think that it is bad that golds are extremely rare, but folks miss such locks with 4-5 shinies.

[kitsune93]

The Breed action still says that you can have up to four eggs. That really needs to be fixed because it's misleading. That's about it from me.

 

 

[Obscure_Trash]

We asked TJ about that before and last word I got was that since that was still true for holidays, it wasn't going to be changed (although that was probably something someone passed onto me, so I don't know of its accuracy). We do get questions on that in help, so maybe the message could only show for holidays during their holiday season? Dunno how much work that could be, but yeah. owo

[WraithZephyr]

updates are fine but one thing ticked me off, I have to rename everything? Now names I had before I can't have cos someone else snagged them. Why have this restriction? Why not have people name their dragons anything (other than offensive things). For example, I had a red dragon named Raphael, he can't be renamed that cos someone else got it.

People who are NOT ACTIVE for 2 or more months - their dragons lose their names. That restriction has been that way for years. It was not something that was added with the "updates".

[HeatherMarie]

Numbers without context also lie. People will be constantly going "THERE WAS A BLIP WHAT HAPPENED?!"

*Any* numbers, anything solid from the cave, would help us. At least, give us a little more insight. I don't give a crap if there was a blip, or if the numbers are nothing at all like we assume they would be...

 

But right now, users really honestly know *nothing*. We know nothing about how the ratios are worked, how breeding-success is decided, how vamp-bites are decided.... Nothing. And so, because we know *nothing* for sure, and have to rely on past experience, things like the whole vamp-bite craze happens where everyone gets pissed about a MUCH lower success rate.... And you come and tell us that nothing is wrong and you never said anything about the vamp-bite ratios that we had all come to rely on.

 

So, instead of us constantly getting up in arms and freaking out when things *seem* to be going wrong because we are *seeing* a definite difference in the cave, why can't we know a little bit of the statistics? Not definite numbers, just knowing a little more of what to expect.

 

Because really, realistically, how many users can be expected to stick around and wait until things change *again*, when this kind of thing happens? Stripe breeding has been borked for months now, and who knows how much longer it'll be before they start breeding "regular" again. I'd *love* to know *what* the actual in-cave guidelines are for that, and *why* stripes in general aren't breeding worth crap. Not just black stripes, any stripes.

 

And, if it's true that the cave only takes in the last year of ratios/numbers/etc, why are old commons like blacks and greens so hard to get? Have there *really* been *that* many made in the past year, that now they have to be so elusive?

Edited July 18, 2011 by Marie19R

[Amur_Rama]

And, if it's true that the cave only takes in the last year of ratios/numbers/etc, why are old commons like blacks and greens so hard to get?

Not to rain on this, because I wholeheartedly agree. Greens/Pebbles are semi-blockers in the Volcano biome (and well testing to see if the vamp kill was still taking up a slot in the AP, there were about 6 green eggs there too), I haven't seen them anywhere else. So they're still common and highly visible, just limited to one biome.

 

Blacks are slightly more visible than before, but not nearly as common as trios are. (Saw four thunders go by in desert at the 10pm drop, and missed an ice in the 11pm drop. Can't report on magmas, guardians and greens blocked that biome.)

[00n0b0dy]

*Any* numbers, anything solid from the cave, would help us. At least, give us a little more insight. I don't give a crap if there was a blip, or if the numbers are nothing at all like we assume they would be...

 

But right now, users really honestly know *nothing*. We know nothing about how the ratios are worked, how breeding-success is decided, how vamp-bites are decided.... Nothing. And so, because we know *nothing* for sure, and have to rely on past experience, things like the whole vamp-bite craze happens where everyone gets pissed about a MUCH lower success rate.... And you come and tell us that nothing is wrong and you never said anything about the vamp-bite ratios that we had all come to rely on.

 

So, instead of us constantly getting up in arms and freaking out when things *seem* to be going wrong because we are *seeing* a definite difference in the cave, why can't we know a little bit of the statistics? Not definite numbers, just knowing a little more of what to expect.

 

Because really, realistically, how many users can be expected to stick around and wait until things change *again*, when this kind of thing happens? Stripe breeding has been borked for months now, and who knows how much longer it'll be before they start breeding "regular" again. I'd *love* to know *what* the actual in-cave guidelines are for that, and *why* stripes in general aren't breeding worth crap. Not just black stripes, any stripes.

 

And, if it's true that the cave only takes in the last year of ratios/numbers/etc, why are old commons like blacks and greens so hard to get? Have there *really* been *that* many made in the past year, that now they have to be so elusive?

This.

 

Also, blips happen, sure. But really, are we all going to freak out about small blips that return to normal? The only case in which I can see people freaking out about blips is if we're talking a HUGE portion of the population, and for an extended period of time. And, well, if huge blips that last for long periods of time happen...isn't it possible something *is* broken? Seeing any sort of definite data, *especially* with the context that your tracking tools could provide over time doesn't seem like it will cause more freaking out. It should cause less as we're able to see that the numbers really are what they should be long-term, and we won't have to panic every time a few people have bad luck.

[HeatherMarie]

Okay, I admit, I don't look at the biomes very often. They are dropping there regularly, then? I can't find more then one or two a day in the AP, and I haven't been able to breed any in months.

[purpledragonclaw]

Since the implementation of the biomes I regularly see Thunders, Blacks, and have even seen Golds and Silvers. This was not happening for me before the biomes came around, which is why I would like to see them stay.

[kitsune93]

We asked TJ about that before and last word I got was that since that was still true for holidays, it wasn't going to be changed (although that was probably something someone passed onto me, so I don't know of its accuracy). We do get questions on that in help, so maybe the message could only show for holidays during their holiday season? Dunno how much work that could be, but yeah. owo

The time frame for Holidays is pretty small and there's a lot less Holiday dragons than regular dragons. It'd make more sense for the message to reflect what is true for the majority and not the minority.

[Lythiaren]

Woah woah woah. What's with all the people demanding to know exactly how things work? Doesn't that break the whole reverse engineering thing? I understand the desire to know how things work, but honestly we have no right to that information. TJ has a right to protect his own code and algorithms. If he gave us exactly how these things work, it would be way too easy to cheat. O_O

Edited July 18, 2011 by Lythiaren

[00n0b0dy]

Woah woah woah. What's with all the people demanding to know exactly how things work? Doesn't that break the whole reverse engineering thing? I understand the desire to know how things work, but honestly we have no right to that information. TJ has a right to protect his own code and algorithms. If he gave us exactly how these things work, it would be way too easy to cheat. O_O

I may be in the minority, but I don't really want to know what precisely his code says. I just want to know the end result. Because I get very concerned when things *look* out of whack to me and several other people have bad luck, and when we go to try to do our own analysis of the situation we're constantly told that our analysis is wrong because we aren't seeing the whole picture. Since in my experience people here have been terrible about letting people know when things change, especially when the changes might be unpopular, I wish we had a way to at least see that things really aren't changing constantly. I don't want to see TJ's code. I want to know if there really are suddenly no *insert dragon here*, or if I'm just having bad luck. Without causing a bunch of drama on the forum, or joining a bandwagon of PMing someone in charge to wait anxiously for a response. I'm interested in a broad-range view of what's going on cave-wide. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not sure how seeing the number of eggs of x dragon from week to week is going to make it possible for me to cheat.

[HeatherMarie]

Reverse Engineering

Users of the site agree not to reverse engineer or otherwise attempt to derive any processes or formulas used by the site's internal calculations.

 

I *really* don't think this means that we can't ask a few questions about ratios. *sigh*

 

Seriously, I'm not asking to know exactly what the algorythm is or whatever, because honestly a lot of the technical stuff would probably go over my head.

 

All I'm saying is that users have a right to know what is *normal* on a game-site. I really don't think it's too much to ask to know if it's *normal* to not get any black/vine eggs from breeding for months at a time, despite them supposedly being commons. I don't think it's too much to ask to know if the breeding drought is *normal* within what the site deems normal.

 

I think it would help a *lot* of the "complaining" and "whining" that we are always accused of, if we simply knew a little bit of what to expect!

[Lythiaren]

Well no, the thing is someone in this thread (I forget who, I was reading posts not posters) basically said that they want to know exactly how the site works, unless I'm misunderstanding (which admittedly I probably am). That's... kind of bad. There's supposed to be secrecy surrounding how things actually work. If there wasn't, then he might as well release the code open source.

 

Really, he's tried being a little more transparent. He's offered us a nibble before, in threads where he said things like how wilderness dragons counted toward the ratios (at the time) and a rough idea of how the site picks how many of what go into each drop. The frightening trend is the increasing number of people who are unsatisfied with what he's told us so far and basically want the entire backend handed to them in human language.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Lythiaren

[Paradiso]

The only complaint I have with the new cave layout is navigation is a bit trickier and more complicated. Some suggestions:

• When you miss an egg in a biome, it would be very useful to have a link to return to the biome you were in after the message that you've missed the egg. Having the biome navigation bar on that page would work just as well.

• If you're in a biome, like the Forest, it would be nice to be able to click on 'Forest' in the biome navigation bar to refresh the page.

• I'd LOVE if there was a link to the AP in the biome navigation bar. It would also help if the biome navigation bar appeared in the AP.

• I'd also like if Teleport generated a direct link in addition to the bbcode and HTML fields.

• Since we have a dedicated page for Teleport where you can see all the Magis available, it would be awesome to have such a page for other BSAs, like Incubate and Influence.

Otherwise, I like the biomes. I've had to adjust how I hunt and sometimes it doesn't work out how I'd like but overall there are more advantages than disadvantages.

 

Edited: The second sentence for my first bullet point somehow migrated to the end of the second bullet point.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Paradiso

[iarsma]

Cinnamin Draconna, have you actually ever played a game where how the game functions was divulged to all the players? Because if you have, I'll find that rather amazing.

 

It's one thing to ask for confirmation regarding whether something is working properly or not. It's another thing entirely to ask for specific information regarding how the game functions, determines things, etc.

 

I get that you're frustrated, irritated, at the end of your rope, whatever - but that doesn't entitle you to that information. When you play any game, you just have to accept that you don't get to know everything, and that sometimes you're just going to have to live with responses like "Everything is working as it should."

[00n0b0dy]

The only complaint I have with the new cave layout is navigation is a bit trickier and more complicated. Some suggestions:

• When you miss an egg in a biome, it would be very useful to have a link to return to the biome you were in after the message that you've missed the egg.

• If you're in a biome, like the Forest, it would be nice to be able to click on 'Forest' in the biome navigation bar to refresh the page. Having the biome navigation bar on that page would work just as well.

• I'd LOVE if there was a link to the AP in the biome navigation bar. It would also help if the biome navigation bar appeared in the AP.

• I'd also like if Teleport generated a direct link in addition to the bbcode and HTML fields.

• Since we have a dedicated page for Teleport where you can see all the Magis available, it would be awesome to have such a page for other BSAs, like Incubate and Influence.

Otherwise, I like the biomes. I've had to adjust how I hunt and sometimes it doesn't work out how I'd like but overall there are more advantages than disadvantages.

I can fully support any and all of those suggestions. Especially the easier transport between biomes and ap and biomes and missed eggs. I'd been working around them, but it would be great to not have to click through several pages or go back and then refresh