Communication with other users

[Thuban]

I personally think that change is unavoidable because the userbase change all the time and young people like change. DC needs to change or it will die with time.

You talk against the change and you are not seeing that DC is already changing, right in front of your eyes. The Christmas event is one of the proofs of this change from those silly non interactive events to something much more vivid and interesting.

I'll look forward to see the changed, evolved, more modern DC.

It's a personal choice to give up to play DC when DC change. I'm pretty sure most people will be interested in an upgraded game with a rich site than the people who give up of the game because they were attached to the old not so good site.

Events are in the hands of the people who come up with them and make them. They are not something that is year round, day to day. That Christmas game was cool, but as a built in thing, no. It would need its own site, its own team devoted to debugging it. It would need devoted staff, willing to deal with it, its own servers to help with the lag. It has nothing to do with the site itself, events are their own... separate entity, that only exists as a short term thing. That event was able to happen because we finally had the resources to be able to pull off something like that. Its something I've been waiting a few years to see happen.

 

Im a big fan of a lot of the changes that have happened, and that have been suggested, but am not a fan of the forums and/or a chat being built in. Looking at our chat staff, most of us have other things going on in our lives that are affecting the time we can devote to being there. Having it built in would mean less time for us to be able to go and focus on those other things that have priority in our lives. Some days, like during events and downtime, I dont have time to play any games, let alone this game, because we have to help the new people that show up in the chat, acclimate themselves to the environment, help answer the questions, keep the chat calm, and stay on top of whatever the latest information is. A good number of the forum mods have real life kicking them around too, which leaves very few people able to really help with that at this time.

 

I've worked a huge forum in the past (50k+ when I left), where we had chat and forums built in. I ran an entire section of it on my own, because the other mod that was supposed to be training/helping me had a life crisis to deal with, which left me on my own for months. While I was on my own, I was putting in 14+ hours a day in the chat (300+ people in just the basic chat, another 250+ in the room that was specific to my section of the forums) and maintaining my section on the forum (because there, forum mods were REQUIRED to also help mod the chat). I had no time to play other games.

 

If a chat were to be built in, what format would we use? Most of the people who I've seen say they avoid chat, say its because they dont understand IRC, or because its too busy, and they cant keep up. If we dont use IRC style... what would we use? Would our current forum mods be expected to help out with that? What about our chat mods, would they be expected to learn the forum tools in addition to the chat tools? Would having the built in chat be optional? Could a person choose to not have it, or the forum bits activated on their accounts? It sounds like a nightmare honestly.

 

If we build these things directly into the site, would it also mean that if you are misbehaving and are banned for whatever reason, your scroll would be temp-burned to keep you off the site? How would you expect warns and stuff to work? What about those people who have social anxietys... who avoid both forums and chat because they just cant handle it? Would we be forcing them to leave on account of forcing said social aspects on them? If the chat and forum cant be shut off, cant be optional, then what do we do about all the kids who already have existing scrolls, whose (evil) parents and grandparents wont let them on the social networks? Sure, the new members coming in, would be able to make the decision of whether they will allow their kids to use the site, but what about those established youngsters?

 

 

TLDR:

So, those of you who are pushing for this to happen, what systems would you suggest be used? What forum format?

What chat format?

How do you want to see modding handled, and by who?

How do we deal with the kids who are allowed to play?

How do we protect them from the creepers who will suddenly have ways to contact them, that didnt before?

Do we make it so that an account can be flagged as "im under 13, no social contact of any kind"?

 

 

I would far rather see resources used toward an official hatchery (that requires logging in to post eggs, so things cant be bombed without permissions), and MAYBE a "profile" page of sorts built into the game. Outside of that, I would rather see a whole mess of other updates happen, than have this suggestion go into place. I see the appeal, I do.. but its just not something I personally want for /my/ way of play.

[Fiona]

I am opposed to having a chat or PM system directly on DC's main site. The LAG, the lag...

 

Comparing DC to how any other collection game is run is counter-productive. We do not function like other games nor do we seek to function like other games. Whatever you see as similar to other games may only be a surface resemblance. Telling us "they do it like <that> over there and it works great" means less than nothing here, and in my opinion is grounds for your suggestion to be ignored. If you want to argue for a change, base it entirely on what DC is, how it functions and how your idea would improve it.

 

Yes, change is necessary. Not all change is good though and each proposed change should be weighed out separately from all other suggested changes. The decision to adopt it must be made solely on how that one change would affect the game as it is.

 

DC would probably benefit somewhat from an on-site market, but adding direct PM would only increase difficulties that already exist with trading through the forum.

 

Adding an optional link to your forum account would be nice for some. I would not use it myself. There is benefit in keeping your forum and scroll accounts completely separate. Any required on-site PM or chat, or required link to forum account, would negate that benefit. You may not have ever experienced that benefit. I do and don't want it taken from me.

[Fuzzbucket]

I am opposed to having a chat or PM system directly on DC's main site. The LAG, the lag...

 

Comparing DC to how any other collection game is run is counter-productive. We do not function like other games nor do we seek to function like other games. Whatever you see as similar to other games may only be a surface resemblance. Telling us "they do it like <that> over there and it works great" means less than nothing here, and in my opinion is grounds for your suggestion to be ignored. If you want to argue for a change, base it entirely on what DC is, how it functions and how your idea would improve it.

 

Yes, change is necessary. Not all change is good though and each proposed change should be weighed out separately from all other suggested changes. The decision to adopt it must be made solely on how that one change would affect the game as it is.

 

DC would probably benefit somewhat from an on-site market, but adding direct PM would only increase difficulties that already exist with trading through the forum.

 

Adding an optional link to your forum account would be nice for some. I would not use it myself. There is benefit in keeping your forum and scroll accounts completely separate. Any required on-site PM or chat, or required link to forum account, would negate that benefit. You may not have ever experienced that benefit. I do and don't want it taken from me.

All this, too. The lag - and the bandwidth, for those on capped internet.

[olympe]

As a middle-aged player (35) and mother of a young player (almost 13, so soon joining the forums), I don't want to see a chat built into the site. I'd be okay with a link to the IRC chat on the main site, though, because that can be blocked if deemed necessary by any young person's parents. Plus, it wouldn't be nearly as obnoxious as a chatbox directly on the main page, and thus easier to ignore.

 

With tens of thousands of players, such a chat would probably be used by many and move incredibly quickly. Maybe too quickly to be followed in a timely fashion. Not to mention the need for this chat to be modded. Our mods are already overworked as it is, the number of unapproved descriptions is proof of that.

 

 

About a PM system, I feel torn. There is good reason to implement something on the site to allow for PMs, if only to allow for easy trading/gifting/requesting of eggs for non-forum members. Trading, after all, has become a major thing on DC. However, the same thing could be achieved with an in-cave marketplace. It would be perfect if this could be implemented with a limited messaging system that allows for the use of simple text building blocks. (May I request an egg from x and y? / What can I get you in return? / Thanks! / Interested in a bloodswap for [lineage]? / Yes. / No. / Thanks anyway. / [insert teleport link here])

Of course, simple requests as well as PM-ability could be opt-in only. After all, there are people who don't want to bother with other users.

[Pokemonfan13]

I'm really starting to think that if any contact system is built directly into the site it should be a trading system with mix-and-match pre-made messages and fill-in-the-blanks with dragon and teleport links that are designed to cover all reasonable situations. No problem for little kids since typed messages aren't allowed, but would allow the essentials of cooperative action on-site. Non-supported trade aspects (IOUs) would have to be done though the forums, of course.

 

And ideally any account would be able to set its preferences to not allow messages at all. Even if the only message ability is mix-n-match trade talk, I can see some users not wanting to have even that.

[Riverwillows]

DC ain't broke. It's unique and well-run. Sure we have some bumps here and there, but much less than many others. It don't need fixin'!! Listen to us old fogies, we know what we are talking about.

[danicast]

DC ain't broke. It's unique and well-run. Sure we have some bumps here and there, but much less than many others. It don't need fixin'!! Listen to us old fogies, we know what we are talking about.

As I already said "it's not broke don't need fix" it's not an argument - I even heard that from other people in this same forum, including mods: it is never an argument.

There is always room for improvement.

 

I wouldn't be worried about performance in the site. I've seen many sites that have huge forums and chat features integrated in the main site and they run smoothly.

Unless, of course, TJ don't have hability or knowledge to develop such system but I think he have.

 

I don't thinks communications between users should be limited. It should work exactly like the PMs in the forum work: free text. If you don't want to talk to someone, block the user, like in the forum.

 

And if you are so worried with children (we shouldn't be since it is required to be 13 to play Dragon Cave) we can install that feature that Chicken Smoothie have that children under 13 can't talk freely or post in forums. I dont see as a big deal. It's a family site after all.

Edited January 15, 2016 by danicast

[olympe]

And if you are so worried with children (we shouldn't be since it is required to be 13 to play Dragon Cave) we can install that feature that Chicken Smoothie have that children under 13 can't talk freely or post in forums. I dont see as a big deal. It's a family site after all.

This age restriction may be in place for people joining now, but wasn't when my daughter joined at age 6. Back then, she merely needed parental approval, which she had. (Obviously.) I don't even know when it was changed, so there may still be younger players around.

 

Not to mention that some parents prefer to keep even their teens well away from message boards and chats.

[danicast]

This age restriction may be in place for people joining now, but wasn't when my daughter joined at age 6. Back then, she merely needed parental approval, which she had. (Obviously.) I don't even know when it was changed, so there may still be younger players around.

 

Not to mention that some parents prefer to keep even their teens well away from message boards and chats.

The parents don't need to change how they behave. In fact, the way it works today there is no guarantee that any child or teen is kept away from the forum or chat. There are no control mechanism in DC forum or chat right now. Children can join at any time and we don't even know if they are using the forum or chat system. So this can be an improvement too if implemented in the site itself with options to disable the features connected to the accounts.

[Thuban]

This site isnt chickensmoothie. If you want to push for improvements, do it on dc merits, not the base of another game

 

As it stands right now: kids under 13 can play the game with parental permission here. One of the reasons i allowed my kids to have scrolls was because of the fact that the forums arent tied to the game. My daughter has been begging for a CS account for 6 years... and I wont allow it, even with the measures they have in place. They are prevented from sending messages, but it seems they can read what I send to them message-wise when it comes to trades. Same with FR.. shes been begging since I joined, and I wont allow it, I wont even use their forums because of some of the things I have seen happen there. My son would be alright here on the forums, but I would prefer to be able to block him from visiting certain areas of the forum. Thankfully, he doesnt care either way about the forums.

 

If I wasn't a mod, then I would be completely, 100% behind the idea of messaging and chat being built in but completely optional (as in can be turned off and on through account settings). At least then, the choice to ignore it would be completely mine (though, i would miss out on the news announcements, and such, which is a problem actually). But as it stands, I strongly prefer the current system where if i want to see the forum activity I can come here, and if i want to see the chat, I can go there. As it is right now... im only about 30% ok with the idea.. because im not seeing anything to convince me that it would be BETTER for this site as a whole.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

Kids can lie about their age. Predators can too.

 

And I say again, danicast - sure TJ could do it. But this is a nice, quiet game that many of us prefer to CS and others like it.

 

And I can only assume that you have decent internet and that it isn't capped. We aren't all so lucky. There is lag already. That would inevitable be greater if extra features were added (already the new fertility thing hangs for many of us.)

 

Yes, there is always room for improvement. What you seem to miss, danicast, is that what you want is seen by vanishingly few people here as any kind of improvement at all. On the contrary.

 

By the way - it isn't a requirement to be 13 to play the cave, as long as a parent gives permission and goes through a mod. My grandson has been playing since he was 9, and my granddaughter I think started when she was 8. If a forum were on the main site, that would be the end for her - though he is now old enough. And you all ought to want her and others like her to stick around - she ONLY collects from the AP, with no concern for lineages, as they NEED her. She has a VERY strange scroll.

Edited January 15, 2016 by fuzzbucket

[TJ09]

DC is DC. End of story. It's not other sites, it is it's own. And we don't really need big changes to "make it better" when the system it has now is more than fine, and makes it unique from other sites. Personally I don't want to have to deal with whatever PM system is added, or chat system or whatever. If I wanted to chat with people or trade, I WOULD GO TO THE FORUM!

Even if I didn't want to have a forum account I could still find trades, or even post one on EATW.

Welp, there it is. DC is DC. No more need for any suggestions; time to lock down this section.

 

Snark aside, this is never a valid reason to reject a suggestion. I 100% disagree with the claim that something shouldn't be made better just because the existing thing is fine.

 

A more constructive and valid way to have phrased this is that you do not see the need for (and would not use) an on-site communication feature--this expresses the same opinion without making a blanket statement of "no need for change" that carries a very different connotation.

[danicast]

Thank you, TJ!

 

I still think a PM and chat features in site will be use it by the majority of users, so it is a good suggestion.

Edited January 15, 2016 by danicast

[Fuzzbucket]

Welp, there it is. DC is DC. No more need for any suggestions; time to lock down this section.

 

Snark aside, this is never a valid reason to reject a suggestion. I 100% disagree with the claim that something shouldn't be made better just because the existing thing is fine.

 

A more constructive and valid way to have phrased this is that you do not see the need for (and would not use) an on-site communication feature--this expresses the same opinion without making a blanket statement of "no need for change" that carries a very different connotation.

Well, several of us did say exactly that, and that we'd be OK with an optional forum ID link, but no more than that. But then it kind of morphed into why can't we have EVERYTHING on the cave site - which wasn't at all what this was about.

 

So thanks, TJ, for a game that isn't all bells and whistles. That is something different, that sure, can use improvements - but not such as to become like every other game on the web.

Edited January 15, 2016 by fuzzbucket

[danicast]

Well, several of us did say exactly that, and that we'd be OK with an optional forum ID link, but no more than that.

I would like to hear from more users. Half dozen users don't represent the userbase, they are a very restrict minority.

[TJ09]

Well, several of us did say exactly that, and that we'd be OK with an optional forum ID link, but no more than that.

And that's fine, I was simply responding to a series of posts that were taking the discussion in a bad direction.

[Herk]

Welp, there it is. DC is DC. No more need for any suggestions; time to lock down this section.

 

Snark aside, this is never a valid reason to reject a suggestion. I 100% disagree with the claim that something shouldn't be made better just because the existing thing is fine.

 

A more constructive and valid way to have phrased this is that you do not see the need for (and would not use) an on-site communication feature--this expresses the same opinion without making a blanket statement of "no need for change" that carries a very different connotation.

While I do agree with this "other side has this so DC has to have it too" is as much of an "argument" as "DC is DC" is aka non at all.

 

"I don't see the need for change" pretty much is on par with "we need change for change's sake".

 

So no side should point fingers

 

While I personally don't have to worry about any children I know who play, I worry about myself. From my experience with online-chats integrated into game sites it doesn't really add much and is apparently a hell to mod. And I really, really, REALLY don't want to deal with the occassional 12 year old who wants to feel cool because he cusses like a mad sailor at random people. On the forums the mods can react pretty quickly, on irc it's the same, the onsite feature very probably would rely solely on reports and from my experience with the description queue... lets just say I've seen names and descriptions *I* consider vile and I'm no blushing lady by any stretch of the imagination.

[cyradis4]

What I would like, communication wise, for DC:

- A more prominent link to the IRC, somewhere. Maybe some way to make it look simpler to get into?

- A way to (if you choose) link to your forum profile from your Scroll

- An in-Cave trade market, even if it was similar to EATW. The trading threads are a real pain to find anything in, something where its easier to find the cookie cutter type trades would be really nice.

- Upgraded forum software (but I know that you have stated in the past you are waiting for better non-buggy versions of this board, so this is kinda a "I know not gonna happen soon" item)

 

What I do not want:

- An in-game Chat feature, they are distracting and brutal to mod and add nothing IRC does not. They also tend to be super busy, filled with inane off-subject chatter, and I like the fact that the main DC site is such a lite site, bandwidth wise.

 

What I think would not add anything to the game if added:

- An in-cave PM system. I do not really see what it would add since the Forums have PMs, and it would make it far easier for harassment to happen.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[danicast]

The argument "it's going to be more difficult to mod" makes no sense because we already have both forum and chat systems with their respective mods and the fact that they will be build integrated to the site doesn't make more difficult to mod, it can make ir easier since the users will have only one account for everything. It's possible that the site will need more mods because a forum and a chat in the site will make more users to use these features than now but that's that. It's not really a downside.

[Pokemonfan13]

I came to this thread mostly undecided on the idea of integration (other than thinking it would be a lot of work), and was quite won over by the "no" side.

 

I've seen lots of really good arguments for not having things integrated with the cave. The biggest ones being the fact that kids and people who don't want to chat would be driven away from the site, and the fact that it would cause problems for those who are not fortunate enough to have great internet. There's also the squirrely bit about how things would be handled if you got really in trouble on the forum, since it would likely mean a scroll burning too.

 

I have not seen much more than a vague "it would make things better" on the side of the main cave being integrated with forums and chat. Not everyone belongs to another site (I don't, for example. DC is the only collectibles site I have ever joined), and so not everyone knows what it would even really be like or what kinds of benefits or problems it would cause. You can't magically make people agree with you based on the strength of your beliefs, you need to make persuasive arguments based on details about what would exactly be better, and why it would be ok to brush aside the user-base that would be hurt (and most likely leave), and why a compromise isn't good enough.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Pokemonfan13

[Fiona]

Wait, danicast. I'm confused. Are you suggesting that we not only have an IRC type chat built into the main site, and/or a PM system, but also that the forum should be integrated into the main site, so that when we log into our scrolls we're automatically logged into the forum too?

 

Because I really, seriously, would not like that. At all. My forum name and scroll name are separate and I like that. People have to know what my scrollname is to find it and that gives my growing babies a measure of protection. I don't link my scroll in my forum signature for that very reason.

[olympe]

The argument "it's going to be more difficult to mod" makes no sense because we already have both forum and chat systems with their respective mods and the fact that they will be build integrated to the site doesn't make more difficult to mod, it can make ir easier since the users will have only one account for everything. It's possible that the site will need more mods because a forum and a chat in the site will make more users to use these features than now but that's that. It's not really a downside.

Actually, it will be harder to mod because there will be more people using both features. It's the same as with roads: A small road with hardly any traffic doesn't need traffic lights. Depending on what rules apply, crossroads don't even need traffic signs. Things are different with main streets in big cities, though. Very, very different.

 

And, yes, traffic needs to be "modded" to avoid desaster. Just like chats. And the amount of traffic - be it cars or users - does make a teeny weeny bit of a difference.

Edited January 15, 2016 by olympe

[danicast]

I've seen lots of really good arguments for not having things integrated with the cave. The biggest ones being the fact that kids and people who don't want to chat would be driven away from the site, and the fact that it would cause problems for those who are not fortunate enough to have great internet.

 

I have not seen much more than a vague "it would make things better" on the side of the main cave being integrated with forums and chat. Not everyone belongs to another site (I don't, for example. DC is the only collectibles site I have ever joined), and so not everyone knows what it would even really be like or what kinds of benefits or problems it would cause. You can't magically make people agree with you based on the strength of your beliefs, you need to make persuasive arguments based on details about what would exactly be better, and why it would be ok to brush aside the user-base that would be hurt (and most likely leave), and why a compromise isn't good enough.

Ok.

 

What will be better:

 

1. One login to all functions, the game, the forum, the chat. No more need to create different logins to several places. You will have only one username, your scroll name.

 

2. Users who have been complaining that they don't have their username available at the forums or chat will have now since automatically the login to the site will be used to forum and chat with the same username

 

3. Easier to control since it will work all integrated

 

4. Less chances that one person pretend to be another or login with a fake persona (happens a lot in IRC) so less chance of scams

 

5. Better parenthal control: the chat and forum can have a disable button so parents who don't want their kids interacting with other people can simply disable that feature

 

6. Customisable: several things that people ask in the suggestions area about forum features that are usually shut down with "is not possible to do in this forum software" can be implemented like a visitor message system in profile or a record showing the last time that that user logged in or that "ignore that user" feature that it was asked before where you don't see the posts from a user that you don't want to see

 

7. Better harass control: once you blocked a user, it's blocked from all contact with you because the whole system is integrated

 

There is much more. Actually almost everything will be possible if the site have the communication system integrated to the site.

[Thuban]

The argument "it's going to be more difficult to mod" makes no sense because we already have both forum and chat systems with their respective mods and the fact that they will be build integrated to the site doesn't make more difficult to mod, it can make ir easier since the users will have only one account for everything. It's possible that the site will need more mods because a forum and a chat in the site will make more users to use these features than now but that's that. It's not really a downside.

On its own, I would agree with you that "its more difficult to mod" isnt a good reason. However, I did throw normal numbers for what the chat tends to pull as it is. With new features, comes floods of new people testing the waters. It could easily mean thousands of people, at once, on a potentially new format with only 2-3 of our current chat mods on at any given time, on average. We are pretty used to the averages of 32-50 people on any given hour. And having had experience with the chat when we would pull a couple hundred people, I have experience to back up the things I have issues with in regards to the idea of a built in chat. Our mods do the best they can, but we cant stop everything that comes up in there.

 

Is this a reason to discount the idea of ingame chat? No, not exactly. It is enough to raise redflags though. The userbase that is usually in chat, we know the general age ranges of, we know the people, their quirks, and how to work around those quirks with each other. Unlike the forums, when things come up, we cant simply "erase" them. So if someone decides to drop naughty links... those links are going to stick around until they roll off the page. Granted, with the potential of lets just say 500 people accessing the chat at any given time, those links probably wont last long, but we cant remove them. I have only modded in IRC chats. I cant think of any chat formats though where you can delete lines of things people have said, outside of like.. skype. Even then its only the person who wrote the thing, that can delete it.

 

Im going to ask again, out of sheer curiosity sake: What is it exactly you want to see in the event of a forum/chat/main site merge? FR and CS do not have built in chats, and im sure they have very good reasons for that. How would you like to see it work, and why do you think it would make the site better for everyone, opposed to just a few?

[danicast]

Im going to ask again, out of sheer curiosity sake: What is it exactly you want to see in the event of a forum/chat/main site merge? FR and CS do not have built in chats, and im sure they have very good reasons for that. How would you like to see it work, and why do you think it would make the site better for everyone, opposed to just a few?

Oh trades. It's easier to make trades with people online. You can discuss in private chat (similar to how is done in IRC) and make the trade heppen immediately.

I like to use the IRC, I go there a lot and I got several great dragons there not only in trades but as gifts. Chat is a lot of fun.

 

It is possible to have a chat with features that help to control that IRC doesn't have, I go to an anime forum that have a chat and is very controlled, you can't post links or images directly in the chat, so I know is possible to customize the chat to work according to our needs.