Egg Circulation

[Amazon_warrior]

The only reason players suddenly decided Nocturnes and Electrics were desirable was precisely because they became so scarce. That scarcity was not a player-generated event. I can't recall if there was any manual TJ-action taken to correct things, but whether or not there was, it was a site-based event. That's the only reason their popularity changed -- not because players suddenly decided they liked them much more than the day previous. That's also the reason behind all the suggestions of cyclical commonness within the common breeds, to keep any breeds from becoming constant blockers, and letting blockers go scarce enough for a time to cause them to be desirable again and start the cycle all over.

Wasn't it because Nocturnes, Electrics and Canopies were virtually the only thing dropping for about a month? So everyone complained, TJ tweaked the settings and suddenly they got scarce. Of course, I could be remembering wrong...

[olympe]

1) I really really really don't want any changes to the way eggs drop. There's a special feeling about getting a rare or uncommon egg that just wouldn't be the same if you didn't have to wade through the tides of commons. I remember squealing with joy the first time I caught what I considered to be a rare egg, a stripe. Just because a lot of people don't want those eggs doesn't mean others don't want them. And, what is considered common today could be considered uncommon tomorrow.

 

2) For instance, when I first started, I remember pinks being the really bad cave blockers. Even worse than the ones we have now. The AP was nothing but pink and when the cave wasn't blocked, most of the eggs there were bright and pink! Now take a look at the AP and the cave and tell me how many pinks you see.

 

3) I like the way the cave is. The best way to get a kind of dragon is to make them more popular. Through BSAs or a special kind of dragon that can only be breed using them. The projects I see in the trading forum also help a lot.

 

4) I'm trying to get a black stripe right now with little luck. But that's not gonna stop me from trying and I defiantly don't want it to be made easier to get it. All that work is just gonna make getting that egg all the better. That little black stripe will be one of the prizes of my scroll, just like the rest of my stripes. I feel the same way about my CB pink, CB magi, and all the other cave born commons that are harder to find now.

 

5) In short, I think changing the drop rate of less popular breeds would make the game too boring and take away all the fun. Messing with the ratios would do the same. I like my DC just the way it is.

 

6) Also, no more discontinued. I really like the Bright Pinks and it makes me sad that I can't get one of my own D:

 

(numbers added by me)

Well, I disagree with you on most points.

 

1) Sure, there is a special feeling about getting a rare or uncommon egg, but nobody here wants to increase the ratios of them - only make the cave produce commons closer to the demand of the userbase. In layman's words: Rares are supposed to be rare and will stay rare. And, just for your information, I read more than once that stripes are considered common by the game. Commons that, according to the stats on Silvi's Lair, are about as rare as the officially rare metallics and much rarer than any of the uncommons.

 

2) Regarding the pinks, they had many changes made to them - a sprite change that also added male pinks, the influence BSA (which already helped) and a description-double (the flamingos that turn up in the AP quite regularly, but not to the extent of being blockers).

 

3) No. You don't get more CB blacks or vines or stripes or whatever just because they are quite popular. The best way to get them is trading, luck and connection(s). And probably some gifting threads.

 

4) Well, as I said before, stripes are supposed to be common. Right now, according to the stats on Silvi's Lair (which has currently about 18,000 eggs on site), the number of all stripes put together about equals the number of metallics (gold and silver - definitely not counting tinsels). Even if stripes were supposed to be uncommin, this would be badly out of proportion.

 

Also, I think color morphs and alts should be considered by the ratios. Don't get me wrong, I really love stripes in all their colors and then some, but the fact that there are so many color variants means that people will have to collect five times as many as of any other breed to reach their scroll goals. Shouldn't that mean that stripes are five times (or at least 2.5 times) as common as other commons (or uncommons, if they are to be numbered among them?)

 

5) I think that caves/biomes/the AP being clogged by this one breed is much more boring than being able to actually get the dragons you're vying for. That still does not mean you'll go to the cave, see "your" egg, grab it and be done, you'd still have to find just the right egg, which takes patience. After all, we have over 60 breeds that can (theoretically) be caught in the cave... That is a lot of different eggs to wade through.

 

6) The one point I do agree with.

[jumpsnake]

The only reason players suddenly decided Nocturnes and Electrics were desirable was precisely because they became so scarce. That scarcity was not a player-generated event. I can't recall if there was any manual TJ-action taken to correct things, but whether or not there was, it was a site-based event. That's the only reason their popularity changed -- not because players suddenly decided they liked them much more than the day previous. That's also the reason behind all the suggestions of cyclical commonness within the common breeds, to keep any breeds from becoming constant blockers, and letting blockers go scarce enough for a time to cause them to be desirable again and start the cycle all over.

This is what I was trying to say. Make the commons circulate more, so the cycle moves faster. I personally love nocturnes- they are one of my favorite dragons. However, I have other scroll goals besides a nocturne army. Those of us in favor of changing things some are NOT saying that the cave is terrible now or that we want rares to be uber-easy to catch, (I just missed a CB gold like 5 minutes ago!) we're just saying to increase the mix of common eggs.

 

For the record, after visiting the cave more on the hourly drops over last night and this morning, I think the biomes have done what they were supposed to do: ie mix things up and get things moving faster. However, this seems to be true only on the hour, not throughout the rest of the time between the hourly drops. I guess if I know I just need to be online on the hour (as long as it is ANY hour) I can live with that. I was getting frustrated looking at the cave at say, 6:25 and seeing each biome filled with one kind of egg, and the desert empty. This does not seem to be true on the hours.

[Anke]

I've also noticed the AP has become empty again as well. Maybe that's because of all the new projects in SD to adopt abandoned eggs, or maybe the increased AP numbers have gone back down. Things seem to be cyclical with this game.

Or maybe because the drops at the full hour get blocked now, too.

 

Every time I wanted to hunt the last two days, 5 minutes before the hour there were a few blockers in the biomes, and a bit later the AP would fill up, and the eggs (or no-eggs-message) in the biomes would be replaced with the "massive pile of eggs" message.

[kitsune93]

3) No. You don't get more CB blacks or vines or stripes or whatever just because they are quite popular. The best way to get them is trading, luck and connection(s). And probably some gifting threads.

You made very good points but, I wanna clear something up. I wasn't talking about giving the popular breeds a BSA to make them drop more. I was saying to give the unpopular breeds a BSA to make them more popular so they would leave the cave faster. For instance, once pinks were given Influence, I started seeing them a lot less in the AP or the cave. So, if you give Dorsals a good BSA, people would grab them more because they want that BSA and they won't be clogging the AP. If there are less of those eggs clogging up the AP and cave, it would be easier to get the eggs you want. Plus there will be a new BSA to use.

 

 

[purpledragonclaw]

I agree with kitsune93, that a BSA would make these dragons move faster through the cave and AP, and arlymaye, about the idea for a badge based on how many commons a player collects.

Edited June 20, 2011 by purpledragonclaw

[Nectaris]

I agree with kitsune93, that a BSA would make these dragons move faster through the cave and AP, and arlymaye, about the idea for a badge based on how many commons a player collects.

It depends on the BSA though. Look at pebbles for example. They have a BSA, but they still stay on the cave and AP for quite a while.

[arlymaye]

It depends on the BSA though.  Look at pebbles for example.  They have a BSA, but they still stay on the cave and AP for quite a while.

^^ This .. and people were racing to collect Purples for fertility. As it turns out, the BSA is nothing like we imagined it would be. So, although purples aren't as much a cave blocker as a whiptail for example, attaching a BSA that is not appealing doesn't help the cause.

Edited June 20, 2011 by arlymaye

[purpledragonclaw]

Nectaris, you're right, the BSAs the blockers have must bring something good to the game, something that most players will want to grab that dragon for. And Arlymaye, you're right, too, Fertility was not like what we imagined it to be. Thus Pebbles and Purples aren't in high demand even though they both have BSAs. I think some have been suggested for the Dorsals and the Guardians, at least; I'll start looking through the BSA subforum.

Edited June 20, 2011 by purpledragonclaw

[olympe]

Well, regarding fertility, with rare x rare breeding, TJ couldn't give us a guarantee on fertility, or rares would be too easy to get. (Still, it sucks if fertility doesn't even help with breeding commons.)

 

Anyway, there are a number of good BSA suggestions, some of them for the poor cave-blockers.

 

Yet, this will not necessarily keep up, see pebbles.

[Amazon_warrior]

Here's a thought that might help with the three-of-a-kind issue. Maybe. If TJ were willing to implement it. And if it were possible to implement, of course.

 

I'm pretty sure there was talk of a "cuckoo" dragon that masquerades as other eggs. Which is all well and good, except that people fear that it might replace a rare, which would definitely be irritating. I also remember a topic that suggested replacing cave-blockers with a "shiny" version of the sprite, which was very firmly shot down by TJ, with good reason. However. What if a combination of these ideas were used? Instead of a "shiny" version of a sprite (already nixed), what if one of the three "blockers" were replaced by a cuckoo dragon's egg? After all, it would make sense for the cuckoo dragon to hide its eggs in a big pile of similar eggs, and this mechanism would ensure that rares were never targeted. Any of the three eggs could be the cuckoo, so it would encourage people to pick them up and find out. And with the new improved egg slots, holding an egg for 5 hours is no longer as painful as it used to be.

 

Possible problems: Cuckoos might need to be disabled during new releases. Maybe not though, if the new eggs go fast enough. It could be fixed if cuckoos show up a certain time after the three eggs have been sitting in the caves. Maybe with a small random component so that it's never less than, say, 1 second, but not a fixed predictable time either (it should probably have a reasonable upper limit, too).

 

Thoughts?

[kitsune93]

I think the reason Pebbles are cave blockers is because earthquake is very risky. I tried it a few days ago. Two earthquakes, two dead eggs, and one forced hatchling. Those aren't very good odds. If something was done to make it less dangerous, more people would be picking up Pebbles.

 

[olympe]

I doubt it. The cooldown on earthquake isn't that long, and as long as the risk doesn't lower to insignificance, you'll always risk being blocked by a dead egg for 24 hours. Even when the EQ kills didn't take a slot, the pebbles weren't that popular to begin with.

[Rally Vincent]

Agree with Olympe here. A BSA with a chance of killing eggs is not tempting at all. Especially when a random egg could die.

[kitsune93]

The kill rate is pretty high for earthquake. Two dead eggs for every one forced hatchling isn't very tempting (that's what I got when I tested earthquake) If those rates were switched, two forced hatchlings for every one dead egg as well as an option to protect an egg or two, perhaps via another BSA, pebbles might see a spike in popularity.

 

It doesn't need to be a BSA though. Maybe we could give some of these cave blockers an alt form. I've also noticed that most of the cave blockers don't have different sprites for male and female, Nocturnes being the exception. Maybe if Pebbles had an alt form, more people would pick up the bred Pebble eggs in hopes of getting an alt. Even if they abandon the hatchling if it isn't an alt, hatchlings tend to move very fast out of the AP.

 

The Cuckoo thing that Amazon_Warrior said might help but, there are two main problems with it. People could just abandon the egg right away if it's not a Cuckoo egg and that would put us right back at where we started. Blacks, Stripes, and other popular eggs are considered common, and I'm pretty sure people would be upset if they grabbed a Black egg for the AP but got a Cuckoo instead.

Edited June 22, 2011 by kitsune93

[Amazon_warrior]

It doesn't need to be a BSA though. Maybe we could give some of these cave blockers an alt form. I've also noticed that most of the cave blockers don't have different sprites for male and female, Nocturnes being the exception. Maybe if Pebbles had an alt form, more people would pick up the bred Pebble eggs in hopes of getting an alt. Even if they abandon the hatchling if it isn't an alt, hatchlings tend to move very fast out of the AP.

Pebbles already do have an "alt", sort of, in the shape of the Geodes they can breed. Yet they still sit in the cave entrance...

 

The Cuckoo thing that Amazon_Warrior said might help but, there are two main problems with it. People could just abandon the egg right away if it's not a Cuckoo egg and that would put us right back at where we started. Blacks, Stripes, and other popular eggs are considered common, and I'm pretty sure people would be upset if they grabbed a Black egg for the AP but got a Cuckoo instead.

Well, they'd still have to wait 5 hours to drop the egg. I doubt that aspect of the game will ever go away, nor do I think it should. People already pick up blockers only to drop them to the AP 5 hours later, this would just (hopefully) encourage more people to do so, ensuring a rotation of eggs in the cave. Plus you didn't read my post very carefully. The cuckoo would only affect the so-called "blocker" species that sit three in a row at the cave entrances (like the nocturnes, whiptails and pebbles, currently), and would only kick in after a certain period of time. When was the last time you saw three Blacks or Stripes (or other "desirable" breed) sitting unwanted in the Cave?

[kitsune93]

Pebbles already do have an "alt", sort of, in the shape of the Geodes they can breed. Yet they still sit in the cave entrance...

Geodes are not alts, they're another species of dragon. You can tell an egg will be a Geode by just looking at it. I mean giving them an alt like blacks, vines and nebulas have where you can't tell it's an alt till it hatches.

 

 

The Cuckoo thing would work as you're describing it.

[Amazon_warrior]

Geodes are not alts, they're another species of dragon. You can tell an egg will be a Geode by just looking at it. I mean giving them an alt like blacks, vines and nebulas have where you can't tell it's an alt till it hatches.

My comment was coloured by the fact that I tend to view both alts and Geodes/Blunas/Shallows as "cool shiny thing I can maybe get if I breed Dragon X with Dragon Y". *shrug*

 

 

Anyway, I subscribe to the opinion that trying to "fix" a specific breed is somewhat self-defeating. Not for the breed, but for us as players. "Fix" the Pebbles? Then another breed will simply take their place as cave blockers and anyone who didn't bother to build up an Pebble army when they were common will throw up their hands and despair while simultaneously complaining about the new blocker, much like the current situation with Blacks and Pinks. The King is dead! Long live the King! In the meantime, all the focus on Pebbles (and other so-called ultra-commons) as problematic blockers means that they get a lot of negative publicity, making people even less likely to pick them up - it's human nature to not want something everyone else appears to not want. And we know exactly where that can end up. :/

 

I don't know what the ultimate solution for this might be, other than a massive overnight shift in player attitude (hmmm).

 

Apologies, you appear to have got caught in my thought-splurge. It's not intended to be aimed at you in particular, though. Just a few things that have been going round my mind on this subject...

 

 

 

(While I seem to be on my soapbox, and on a somewhat separate note, I do think we should applaud players who make a conscious choice to collect the ultra-commons, rather than just telling them "oh it'll never achieve anything". A little more encouragement and praise might see even more people joining such initiatives. "You collect Mints? AWESOME!")

[Fhee]

Someone already suggested this and i can only agree. How about making dragons more like seasonable? I know that after few days the fever would fade away, but the present situation is really unbearable. There are tons of whips, peebles and tropical staying forever and blockin the cave.

The biomes look cute and all, but i really feel that they kinda messed things and added new problems. After few seconds (kk, lets say one minute) the Desert biome is empty, while bloker eggs remain on other biomes forever.

The map is nice and add some magical reality to game, but on this level its not working. I would vote for seasonal dragons, or maybe monthly circulation of eggs and totally random egg drops.

[TPishek]

Honestly, I don't think decreasing the numbers of "blockers" is going to help too much....

 

I just made this graph based on the numbers shown on Silvi's Lair. http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/6206/slair62311.png

 

Notice that some of the least common dragon types are Neotropicals, Waterwalkers, Mints, Balloons, Canopies, Waterhorses-- some of the notorious "blocking breeds." Even Fogs, Nocturnes, Whiptails and Guardians (more recent blockers) are only midrange, far outnumbered by Reds, Nebulas, Pillows, Vines, and several other "desirable" commons.

 

The difference is the higher proportion in blocking breeds of CB:bred eggs. Which, as everyone seems to WANT a higher proportion of CB:bred eggs across all breeds, it seems counterintuitive to me to be arguing against that now. Take advantage of the glut of CBs to build up your stocks. Last year Terrae were dropping like crazy and blocking everything; this year they're hard to find CB. Before that it was Pinks, and before that Blacks.

[Fiona]

I believe the reason why there are less of the "blocking" breeds showing on Silvi's stats is because people aren't taking them to raise. When they do get picked up, it's often to try to move them out of the way to get to the "good stuff." The program thinks there should be more of those breeds, because their numbers are low overall, so it produces more of them the next drop, which players continue to not take, or take and dump, so the program makes more... and the cycle continues, with things getting more out of balance.

 

I believe one of the biggest reasons any breed doesn't get picked up as much is because of trading. "Blockers" don't have any trade value. You can't even give them away. Therefore, people don't want them as trade fodder. Therefore, unless they're doing a specific lineage that uses those breeds, they don't pick them up. Therefore, less of them are being raised, and so the program thinks we need more to balance their numbers, and on and on.

 

TJ could implement changes that make those blockers more desirable, such as BSAs and hybrids. Then a new blocker will arise. Or he could back the ratios out of the ones that are currently causing problems until they become more rare, which will give them trade value, which will cause them to be picked up more, which will mean more are being raised, which will mean less will drop, which will make them more rare, which will cause their value to go up...

 

In my opinion, ideally he could find a balance in ratios so that all breeds have trade value in proportion to their intended rarity. It would take popularity into consideration, so that more popular breeds, like stripes, would have a trade value similar to the other commons, instead of what it's like now, when a cb stripe will command a value similar to cb golds. (You guys did know stripes are supposed to be common, right?)

 

 

I don't know if TJ would be willing to even consider what I'm suggesting here. I am concerned that things will continue to get more and more unbalanced until people start quitting in frustration. I'm at the point now that I don't really want to hunt the cave at all because all the biomes are blocked with things I can't use to trade to get the things I need to have to complete a trade agreement I made earlier. I had some hopes at first, but things seem to be getting worse instead of better.

[TPishek]

I believe the reason why there are less of the "blocking" breeds showing on Silvi's stats is because people aren't taking them to raise. When they do get picked up, it's often to try to move them out of the way to get to the "good stuff." The program thinks there should be more of those breeds, because their numbers are low overall, so it produces more of them the next drop, which players continue to not take, or take and dump, so the program makes more... and the cycle continues, with things getting more out of balance.

Someone has to be raising them, even if the original catcher is just dumping them. The AP isn't a solid wall of hundreds of Whiptails.

[HeatherMarie]

Can I ask something?

 

How often is the cave *actually blocked* lately? Like, honestly.

 

Because when I was doing my daily DragonCave stuff last night, I was on the site for over an hour and the cave wasn't blocked at all. Not at all.

 

I just logged on right now and there are less then 2 lines of dragons in the AP. Not blocked.

 

I understand the whole anti-AP-blocker sentiment, but what percentage of time is the AP actually blocked? In the past few days, in the past week?

 

Right now there are 6 Dorsals, 1 Waterwalker, 2 Canopys, and 1 Water egg. No mints or balloons at all.

 

All I'm trying to say is, yes, sometimes the cave-blocking is really serious. But sometimes it's not. I've played this game for years and I've seen it go up and down. Is it really necessary to change something major about how the game works if the cave isn't really being blocked the majority of the time?

[Nectaris]

Can I ask something?

 

How often is the cave *actually blocked* lately? Like, honestly.

 

Because when I was doing my daily DragonCave stuff last night, I was on the site for over an hour and the cave wasn't blocked at all. Not at all.

 

I just logged on right now and there are less then 2 lines of dragons in the AP. Not blocked.

 

I understand the whole anti-AP-blocker sentiment, but what percentage of time is the AP actually blocked? In the past few days, in the past week?

 

Right now there are 6 Dorsals, 1 Waterwalker, 2 Canopys, and 1 Water egg. No mints or balloons at all.

 

All I'm trying to say is, yes, sometimes the cave-blocking is really serious. But sometimes it's not. I've played this game for years and I've seen it go up and down. Is it really necessary to change something major about how the game works if the cave isn't really being blocked the majority of the time?

Right now people are not talking about AP blocking, they are talking about the cave being open, but having a wall of three of the same kind that aren't going anywhere anytime soon. And that when one of the three IS actually taken, is soon replaced by the same breed, or another breed that isn't taken.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Nectaris

[HeatherMarie]

I guess I don't get it. I always hear "CB-this CB-that", everyone always wants cave-bred only, CB CB CB. All over the trading threads, everywhere. So.... why is it not a good thing that more CBs of certain breeds are dropping? Wouldn't that make all the CB-collectors happy?

 

Meh. Just don't get it.