Egg Circulation

[Fuzzbucket]

Are you talking about "the cave" as in the ratios, or "the cave" as in Cave-Bred? Because I see vines and reds on the AP all the time. No, I'm serious. I counted eight vines pass through the AP in one hour earlier this morning (yes, I was counting, for reasons not important).

 

Sure, people *want* more CB blacks, vines, etc, but are they needed? No. Are vines/blacks/etc rare? heck no. Mine still breed just fine. CBs are scarce, sure, but that doesn't matter *in-game*. In-game all that matters is the overall ratio.

I caught two reds and a vine in biomes yin one day with no problems at all... I've SEEN blacks and white but not been fast enough. I HONESTLY

don't see that much difference in what's dropping overall than before the change. Three of my mates have caught CB blacks (I missed...) and one a CB silver.

[HeatherMarie]

I actually think that the occasional common breed -should- be retired--once or twice a year, if not every four months or so. It would keep people on their toes; there might be more of a demand for certain breeds if people knew they were in danger of disappearing. And it would give people who have them on their scrolls something nifty, kind of a way of saying "I was there back in the day..." I have several frills on my scroll, I actually liked them, and I wasn't playing when they were retired. I was sad to see them gone when I came back. But I really think it would be the best thing for, say, whiptails, at this point. Unless they're given new sprites or an alt version or -something-, they are going to be the "frill" equivalent until they're retired. Albinos are close.

This would backfire in all the worst ways. What about frills? Since it's been brought up... What about the *HUGE* uproar over frills being taken away? All the drama it caused? What about the Bright Pinks being retired? It wouldn't "keep people on their toes" as much as cause a huge uproar with tons and tons of "it's not fair!" and "why is this happening?!" posts. We've *been* there, we know how it goes.

 

And honestly, I know people are complaining, but the cave is not all that horrible right now. Really, it's not. Things go in cycles. Do you guys remember when the only thing in the AP was walls and walls of blacks and greens? They became very "unwanted" because they were *always there*. Just like the greens and such right now. People complained about those vine/black walls just like people are complaining now. But eventually the ratio balanced itself out, and look, now people are complaining *opposite*, that there aren't enough blacks! Look how that changed!

 

Seriously, I'm not the oldest DC player in this thread, but I've been here long enough to know that it comes and goes. It will get better, it will change. And, knowing that, I see no reason to change the whole structure of DC based on what people don't like *at this moment*.

[Rally Vincent]

Trying to find a black egg in a biome is practically impossible.. whites, vines and reds are hard to find.. and even pinks, purples and magis are scarce. Those are all supposed to be commons, but even at their best they're only showing up on rare occasions.

If you go to the desert on the hour, there are usually more then a few CB Reds dropped. They just vanish fast because people stalk the desert.

 

As for CB Blacks - they are still hard to come by, but personally I have seen more since the introduction of the biomes then the entire year 2010. I guess it's just a matter of luck.

 

Magis, pinks and purples are streched over all the biomes (at least, I've seen them everywhere except for coast, where I don't hunt atm). Best choice again would be desert, because most people wait for Thunders and/or rares to show up.

[olympe]

I don't get the whole "popularity" thing. If ratios were based on popularity, golds/silvers/dinos/etc would be dropping like candy! It simply *can't* be based on popularity, unless we give up on the concept of rares altogether.

 

If you mean that rares, uncommons, and commons should each be dealt out according to popularity... I still don't see that working. There are *always* going to be some breeds that are more popular then others. Always. Magis are always going to be more wanted then Daydreams, at least for the time being, because they have Teleport. But they are both *supposed* to be common. Daydreams shouldn't be dropped any less just because people don't grab them as fast.

 

I just... don't get it. Sorry. Maybe just because I *like* that the cave is governed by this overall ratio, because it's a nice certainty. And I like certainties. I like knowing that I'll always be able to find certain breeds in the AP, and I like knowing that I have to work hard for a rare.

No, that's not what's meant at all. Only that, within all the common breeds, all are dropped according to demand. According to TJ, stripes are commons, and from what I hear, people breed them like crazy. Yet, if you have a look at Silvi's Lair and the stats there, you'll find that the number of metallics (which are meant to be rare) is larger than the number of stripes (which are meant to be c-o-m-m-o-n). Or look at the number of blacks (common!) - which are always in high demand - and the number of trios (uncommon) - right now, the numbers of each trio are at least 1.5 times as high as the number of blacks. Talking about blacks, where have all the alts gone?

[KageSora]

Mmm, well, just because things were tweaked doesn't mean it needs to be to such an extreme that some breeds vanish. They could simply lessen a bit, perhaps? Just enough of a decrease to make a difference, not enough to get rid of them completely. That balancing point would be the key to find.

[HeatherMarie]

I see alts in the hatcheries all the time.

 

I also see tons of blacks. Not as many stripes, but I still see them more then, say, dinos.

 

But okay, if all commons were dropped according to demand, that would mean that earth/green dragons wouldn't drop at *all* right now, because apparently no one wants them since they are always clogging up the AP, right? So they don't drop at all for awhile, and eventually their numbers become on-par with rares like golds. Which makes no sense because they are *supposed* to be common.

 

If commons don't drop just because some a lot of users don't like them, they will cease to *be* commons.

 

 

[KageSora]

But what if it was done so that it's not that they'd simply stop dropping completely, they'd just have a reduction in how many are dropped? Like, say, a 20% reduction or something (no idea how much would be reasonable, personally) if they're starting to act as cloggers? Then, when they're no longer acting as cloggers and people are breeding more of them to get them, they increase in how much they drop again? It would always fluctuate along with the Supply/Demand, but the cave already fluctuates over time after all.

 

It would allow them to stop being quite so common, but it wouldn't be enough to turn them suddenly into rares.

 

 

 

I also like the idea that maybe X number of said breed could be guaranteed to be CB, that would allow more "rare-commons" like the blacks to show up in the cave, while still letting people breed 'em and all...

[Cinnamin Draconna]

ARGH! I never said word one about increasing how often rares or uncommons drop, I'm ONLY talking about the COMMONS. I do NOT want to make rares/uncommons common, I want commons to be commons and not rares.

 

Nor did I say to stop all production of the unwanted breeds, just reduce their production and increase the production of commons that are wanted. I'm saying stop basing production on the ratios and produce eggs based on rarity and popularity. If greens sit there for minutes at a time, produce fewer greens and produce a different common, preferrably something that would get clicked immediately, so that the eggs continue circulating.

 

I'm also asking that more eggs be released each hour, so that the biomes don't sit there empty 55 mins out of 60. If the Desert is empty, drop more eggs at the next 5 min mark. I've heard that there aren't enough desert based dragons.. so move something to even the breeds out. Half of the dragons don't have a climate mentioned in their description anyway, so what difference does it make.

 

It would be better to simply rename the biomes to something that doesn't limit which dragons could be in it, and simply divide the breeds evenly between the biomes. We currently have 56 common breeds (not counting the restricted breeders), divided by 6 biomes, we could have 9 breeds in each with no repeats.

[elynne]

This would backfire in all the worst ways. What about frills? Since it's been brought up... What about the *HUGE* uproar over frills being taken away? All the drama it caused? What about the Bright Pinks being retired? It wouldn't "keep people on their toes" as much as cause a huge uproar with tons and tons of "it's not fair!" and "why is this happening?!" posts. We've *been* there, we know how it goes.

-raised eyebrow- As I said in my post, I wasn't playing when frills or bright pinks were retired, so no, I didn't see the huge uproar or drama. However, I have seen the huge uproars and dramas that have come about because of -every single change to Dragon Cave ever-. Remember the huge uproar and drama about adding teleport BSAs? Or about creating biomes? Those are just the most recent ones I can think of offhand. Not changing anything because it would cause turbulence on the forums is not a good reason, in my opinion and experience.

 

But, I've said my piece about breeds being retired; ultimately it's entirely in the hands of TJ and the other programmers as to whether that happens or not. I would be -very- surprised if no breeds are ever retired again.

[olympe]

Let's just hope it won't happen again, because it wasn't pretty. And even so, it will leave a bad taste in the mouth of new players if they see old and retired breeds on older players' scrolls and learn that they can't have them. So, from me an absolute no to retiring any breeds - even those I'm not a fan of.

 

What I wouldn't mind, though, is some circulation of breeds during the year (like with seasonals). This way, you know that you can get them eventually, although it will take its time.

[Fuzzbucket]

PLEASE no more retired breeds. I am still mourning that which shall not be named, and I ACHE for an old pink...

[rimedragona]

Just a thought I had while reading the thread. Don't the Wilderness dragons factor into the ratio? If there is an egg that has been sitting in the cave for a long time and no one wants it... then there is no reason it shouldn't be raised by it's parents and gets booted to the wilderness where it grows up automatically, right?

 

Why couldn't something like that be implemented? I'm sure there's some reason it hasn't been that I don't know about. I can't be the first person to have considered that. ^^; Maybe the wilderness dragons don't stay around forever and eventually the ratios would be thrown off or something.

Edited June 19, 2011 by rimedragona

[Obscure_Trash]

Nope, wilderness dragons don't count in the ratios. So sending blockers to the wilderness would just mean they had to pop up again later, anyway.

 

~

 

And yes, please no more retired breeds. Then we'll just have less eggs at times and so less kinds that are blockers, leaving caves blocked by the same things, anyway. Plus, I like being able to find whatever dragon whenever I need it. =X I wouldn't mind more seasonal type of dragons - where it's available all year round, but there's different sprites for it according to the time of year. They're common, yet they're not blockers.

[bluebell_rose]

Don't retire anymore breeds please. We just need people to grab the cave blocking breeds and stop being so picky about them. Back when I joined, catching a cave clogger like a mint was like a dream come true. Jeez people these days only want the good stuff they perceive to be good. We all want good stuff, but that can't happen if no one grabbed the bad stuff. Be grateful you have cave blockers to pick from. I wonder if people want to go back to the days when there was literally no eggs in the cave, and one had to fight for even a mint.

Edited June 19, 2011 by bluebell_rose

[arlymaye]

The most effective way to have people pick up ultra commons is to give players incentive for doing so. Badges is a good way to start. Have a checklist in which players who collect x amount of certain dragons can check them off and receive a cool badge. ...just my 2 cents ....

[olympe]

Well, since you're interested in this kind of thing, there's a gifting thread where people have to collect as many commons of three specified breeds in one month as possible. The winner will get a tinsel dragon - way better than a badge.

[arlymaye]

Well, since you're interested in this kind of thing, there's a gifting thread where people have to collect as many commons of three specified breeds in one month as possible. The winner will get a tinsel dragon - way better than a badge.

Yes, that's one way. But what I am proposing is an in-game feature that will allow more people to get involved. The gifting thread is only within the forum community and its outreach is very limited.

Edited June 19, 2011 by arlymaye

[Nectaris]

Yes, that's one way. But what I am proposing is an in-game feature that will allow more people to get involved. The gifting thread is only within the forum community and its outreach is very limited.

^This. There really needs to be a way to encourage people to pick them up rather than just shoving them in your face until you give in and take one.

[jumpsnake]

I really like what Cinnamin Draconna (sorry, I don't think that's spelled right) suggested.

 

Why not have what is dropped based on how long it sits in the cave vs. the ratios? *FOR THE COMMON DRAGONS ONLY* So, for example, nocturnes are now filling the alpine biome. When they sit there like that forever, the cave stops dropping them and starts dropping something else. It would constantly be adjusting. I'm not sure how to tie this in to the bred dragons. Honestly, though, I've been wondering lately (as I try and try to get a stripe egg for gifting out of my army of stripes, and get nada) if the CB ratios really need to be related to the bred ratios. Couldn't there be two sets? Keep the ratio of common: rare the same for each set, but don't have the fact that people breed blacks all the time influence how many blacks drop in the cave. Is there a reason in this day and age of DC for them to be tied together as they are now? Perhaps there is one, like having to do with coding, that I don't understand.

 

I'm not saying I want to get every egg I want every time. But I have a LOT of stripes and I've failed to get even one stripe egg for a very very very long time now. I also would like to be able to go to the cave and pick up the eggs I'd like to get, without having to refresh refresh refresh and still see the same 3 eggs, all of the same breed.

 

Please don't take this as complaining. I'm just stating how the game would be even more fun for me. But I'll live with whatever because I love the game.

OH, and yet another vote for no retires!

 

 

*EDIT* OK, I just went to the desert for the hourly drop, and saw two whites, lots of reds, a swallowtail or two, a dark myst that stayed forever (ugh locked!) and a split that also stayed for a long time. Oh, and a magi or two. I can't really say that's too bad of a mix, can anyone else? The most 'stuck' eggs were two stones.

Edited June 20, 2011 by jumpsnake

[~!~]

ARGH! I never said word one about increasing how often rares or uncommons drop, I'm ONLY talking about the COMMONS. I do NOT want to make rares/uncommons common, I want commons to be commons and not rares.

I think a lot of people in this thread have some trouble realizing what this means.

 

I remember a while ago there was some guy who made a thread like this one, and he started by sorting some dragons into groups.

 

Blacks were in the same category as Golds and Silvers. He was new to the site, and didn't realize that they're common. Why? Because they're not. I say they should be.

 

All breeds besides Trios, metallics, unbreedables, are supposed to be common. (I've heard that Stripes, Splits, drakes, and pygmies are also "uncommon," but I'm not so sure about them. I know that all other breeds are definitely supposed to be common.) While the cave considers "common" to be equivalent to "plentiful," I think us humans would consider "obtainable" to be a better definition.

 

Therefore, I would contend that within the categories of rare, uncommon, and common, there be some tweaking of the ratios. For instance, say the cave is 75% commons and 20% uncommons, and 5% rares. Those ratios cannot be changed. However, within the bloc of commons that makes up 75% of the cave's population, there can be variance.

 

If commons don't drop just because some a lot of users don't like them, they will cease to *be* commons.

Sure they will. If "a lot of users," say, 80% of users, don't like them, then that means their population can be cut by 80% and there will still be enough to satisfy the demand. They won't be plentiful, but they will be obtainable. And, if their newfound rarity drives up their demand, then their population will again have to be adjusted.

 

One other thing: I would be OK with retiring more breeds. I didn't cry when the Frills and Bright Pinks went. I think retiring breeds would be more feasible if they were only retired from breeding or from the cave, but not both, or if there were some feature, perhaps a BSA, that allowed players who joined after their retiring to get a (perhaps limited) number of them.

[kitsune93]

I really really really don't want any changes to the way eggs drop. There's a special feeling about getting a rare or uncommon egg that just wouldn't be the same if you didn't have to wade through the tides of commons. I remember squealing with joy the first time I caught what I considered to be a rare egg, a stripe. Just because a lot of people don't want those eggs doesn't mean others don't want them. And, what is considered common today could be considered uncommon tomorrow.

 

For instance, when I first started, I remember pinks being the really bad cave blockers. Even worse than the ones we have now. The AP was nothing but pink and when the cave wasn't blocked, most of the eggs there were bright and pink! Now take a look at the AP and the cave and tell me how many pinks you see.

 

I like the way the cave is. The best way to get a kind of dragon is to make them more popular. Through BSAs or a special kind of dragon that can only be breed using them. The projects I see in the trading forum also help a lot.

 

I'm trying to get a black stripe right now with little luck. But that's not gonna stop me from trying and I defiantly don't want it to be made easier to get it. All that work is just gonna make getting that egg all the better. That little black stripe will be one of the prizes of my scroll, just like the rest of my stripes. I feel the same way about my CB pink, CB magi, and all the other cave born commons that are harder to find now.

 

In short, I think changing the drop rate of less popular breeds would make the game too boring and take away all the fun. Messing with the ratios would do the same. I like my DC just the way it is.

 

Also, no more discontinued. I really like the Bright Pinks and it makes me sad that I can't get one of my own D:

[~!~]

Just because a lot of people don't want those eggs doesn't mean others don't want them. And, what is considered common today could be considered uncommon tomorrow.

A lot of people seem to think that demand just randomly changes. I claim that it does not.

 

The first experience I had with a cave blocker was Blacks. The cave was so full of Blacks that nobody wanted. It was ridiculous. Then alt. Blacks were introduced. After some revisions, any Black egg could potentially become an alt. They got snatched up like hot cakes. However, because everybody was breeding their Blacks, CBs became a novelty, thereby increasing their value. But nobody just up and said "OK, CB Blacks are going to be valuable now." The change was caused by an administrative change.

 

Then Pinks were blockers. Influence happened. No more blocking Pinks. Greens were blockers, and supposedly the introduction of Geodes would fix that, but it didn't really because once everybody got one CB pair of Greens who would breed, they could make all the PB 2nd-gen Geodes they wanted without needing to get more Greens. They tried Earthquake too, but since that's not very useful, Greens continue to block.

 

The only time I have ever seen a breed go from being a blocker to not is when something site-side is changed about them that causes more people to want them for practical purposes. Then their rarity goes up, making them more desirable for things like lineages, and boom: positive feedback loop. See my example above, concerning the Blacks.

 

Whites, on the other hand, are still relatively valuable for a common, and are used a lot in fancy lineages. Why? Because they're pretty. We like them for their intrinsic value (a superior sprite) rather than some added feature or for the rarity instilled by the addition of that feature.

 

Then we've got Guardians. Been in the cave for years - still blockers.

 

tl;dr: What is considered common today won't be considered uncommon tomorrow unless they get a BSA that ditches the 5-hour wait or something.

 

PS: I can think of one anomaly, off the top of my head. I don't really see Mints blocking anymore. Not sure what happened there. (Although, they were blockers for a long time before quieting down. Longer than half the current blockers have even been in the cave.)

[Daypaw]

Come to think of it, I haven't seen many mints recently either.

 

When I first started DC, I never saw CB nocturnes. I hardly ever saw even bred eggs in the AP, and I remember there being a thread asking about whether or not they'd been removed from the cave somewhere in the Q&A. It took me quite a while to catch the pair I have at that point, and this wasn't too long ago. I started noticing more and more of them gradually, but this is the first time I've seen them actually blocking. I even saw a pygmy block earlier tonight at the volcano.

 

That being said, I like the idea of eggs rotating out if they've been sitting in the cave for an absurd amount of time. I don't necessarily like the idea of them going into limbo, though- because as it was pointed out before, they'd simply get shuffled back in and eventually there would be nothing left but blockers. I don't agree with them being deleted permanently, either- as SOMEONE will eventually want that blocker, and it'd be a shame to have it simply vanish.

 

I do like the idea that, if Egg Breed A has been hanging out forever without being picked up, then the cave will start dropping Egg Breeds B and C to prevent blocking- it may well be possible to set the cave up in such a way that two of the same breed will not be on screen at the same time, thus making the chances of something getting grabbed go up a bit. You could still have three blockers on screen, but at least they would be three different blockers that could appeal to different people. I don't know how practical that is from a programming/coding standpoint, though.

[purpledragonclaw]

I would prefer not to see species retired ever as well.

 

Sometimes demand changes due to factors we can't determine. For example, I remember when Nocturnes and Electric dragons were first released, the cave produced nothing but those for weeks. Then things returned to normal with regular drops, and then Nocturnes became very scarce for awhile. They were snagged like hotcakes off the main page and out of the AP. So, ~!~, I agree that administrative changes make certain species more desirable, but sometimes player desires change things too.

 

Guardian sprites have been in the cave for years, but I make it a point to collect them. There are some members who collect Horse dragons, and those are considered blockers too. The demand is there, but not to the extent that the cave produces those species.

 

I've also noticed the AP has become empty again as well. Maybe that's because of all the new projects in SD to adopt abandoned eggs, or maybe the increased AP numbers have gone back down. Things seem to be cyclical with this game.

 

 

[bbik]

I remember when Nocturnes and Electric dragons were first released, the cave produced nothing but those for weeks. Then things returned to normal with regular drops, and then Nocturnes became very scarce for awhile. They were snagged like hotcakes off the main page and out of the AP. So, ~!~, I agree that administrative changes make certain species more desirable, but sometimes player desires change things too.

The only reason players suddenly decided Nocturnes and Electrics were desirable was precisely because they became so scarce. That scarcity was not a player-generated event. I can't recall if there was any manual TJ-action taken to correct things, but whether or not there was, it was a site-based event. That's the only reason their popularity changed -- not because players suddenly decided they liked them much more than the day previous. That's also the reason behind all the suggestions of cyclical commonness within the common breeds, to keep any breeds from becoming constant blockers, and letting blockers go scarce enough for a time to cause them to be desirable again and start the cycle all over.