Ascension

[Fuzzbucket]

No, if you can let your dragons ascend, then with no failure rate.

Otherwise, there'll be drama:

 

I tried to ascend my dragon 7 times now, but I always failed.

You can't ascend one yet - do you mean summon ? That has an 11% success rate.

 

What we are asking for here (many of us !) is about an 85% success rate and possibly increasing chances each time we try. (We are also, in another thread, asking for summon chances to increase each time we try !)

[Syphoneira]

You can't ascend one yet - do you mean summon ? That has an 11% success rate.

 

What we are asking for here (many of us !) is about an 85% success rate and possibly increasing chances each time we try. (We are also, in another thread, asking for summon chances to increase each time we try !)

 

 

Actually, I think she was using that as an example of what might potentially be said by people, not as something that had been tried.

 

Of course, I'm frequently wrong, lol.

[quadibloc]

This all depends on what is meant by ascending and what is meant by failing.

 

I don't see a problem with it failing in the sense that the dragon just doesn't ascend, but it stays on your scroll. Losing the dragon, on the other hand, seems harsh.

 

By ascending, I take it what is meant is an adult dragon changing to a new kind of alt, while still being of the same breed. I can see a problem with this right away - in fact, two problems.

 

For one thing, it would mean new sprites for almost all the different breeds of dragon! That's a lot of spriting!

 

And, on top of that, these new sprites are all categorized as "better" than the old sprites! How is that going to make all our existing hard-working spriters feel?

 

So, while it's a fun idea, it seems to have some major strikes against it.

 

EDIT: I've looked at a bit more of this thread, and I see the idea is apparently already in development, with the spriters making the new sprites.

 

And the big issue is: if a dragon needs to have been an adult for, say, 6 months, to be able to ascend, won't it be unfair that when the feature is introduced, not everyone is able to use it?

 

I'll have to agree that it would be silly to bring in the feature, and have nobody be able to use it for 6 months. And, yet, some fairness to new players would be nice too.

 

Here's my suggestion:

 

Not only should the ascension action not apply to holiday dragons, paper, cheese, dino, and so on, but perhaps it isn't necessary for metallics and trios and other sought-after dragons like nebulas, electrics, reds, pinks, and blacks. Having it for them is OK, but for ascension to be a way of re-kindling interest in common dragons would be useful.

 

The ascension action should become available at some random time for each dragon, and the time might also vary by breed. Typically, the ascension action would become available sometime between one week to one year after the dragon became an adult.

 

Time that passed before the ascension feature was introduced would count at 1/2 or 1/3 as much as time after the feature was introduced. The fact that some dragons can ascend after only a week, and prior time counts at a reduced rate would help newer players to feel more included.

 

Failure should not mean that a dragon dies or runs away. However, either ascension should have a low success rate, or, if it succeeds at a rate of 50% or greater, it would be reasonable if a dragon could only try to ascend once.

Edited April 4, 2011 by quadibloc

[Fuzzbucket]

Oh surely no-one has said that a failure to ascend would kill the dragon - I thought it would be just like summon - either it works or it doesn't but the dragons involved are still yours.

 

The spriters have been working on sprites for a long time - except those who haven't chosen to, and as far as I know spriters who don't want to make new sprites will just mean that those dragons don't have the ascending option. Just as some dragons have BSAs and others don't, some will be able to ascend and some won't.

[KageSora]

This all depends on what is meant by ascending and what is meant by failing.

 

I don't see a problem with it failing in the sense that the dragon just doesn't ascend, but it stays on your scroll. Losing the dragon, on the other hand, seems harsh.

 

By ascending, I take it what is meant is an adult dragon changing to a new kind of alt, while still being of the same breed. I can see a problem with this right away - in fact, two problems.

 

For one thing, it would mean new sprites for almost all the different breeds of dragon! That's a lot of spriting!

 

And, on top of that, these new sprites are all categorized as "better" than the old sprites! How is that going to make all our existing hard-working spriters feel?

 

So, while it's a fun idea, it seems to have some major strikes against it.

The failure rate discussed is just a "You fail this week, try again next time!" kind of thing--like if a breeding doesn't give you an egg or something. You won't lose the dragon. :3

 

 

 

As for the sprites... Actually, this is the second threat--there was another thread that's currently hidden where the spriters have already been working on the sprites. So they'd be the ones to work on the sprites for the ascended dragons.

 

'd

Edited April 4, 2011 by KageSora

[quadibloc]

Also, here's a thought for another limit on ascension: a dragon can only ascend if there is at least one other adult dragon of the same breed that's on your scroll. Perhaps that could be implemented by having unascended dragons have an action that ascends another dragon of the same breed that's old enough, with both dragons involved having a cool-down time.

 

If a dragon can be ascended only once, it's the recipient of the action, then, that you can only try to ascend once, but the other dragon that contributes to the ascension of another dragon would only have a cool-down time. And a dragon that failed to ascend should still be able to help ascend another dragon.

Edited April 4, 2011 by quadibloc

[olympe]

Why? What is it good for, apart from forcing you to keep at least one of your dragons of each breed in the normal adult stage. Isn't this forcing a certain playstyle on everybody?

[Fengari]

...

And the big issue is: if a dragon needs to have been an adult for, say, 6 months, to be able to ascend, won't it be unfair that when the feature is introduced, not everyone is able to use it?

 

I'll have to agree that it would be silly to bring in the feature, and have nobody be able to use it for 6 months. And, yet, some fairness to new players would be nice too.

 

When influence and incubate were introduced, was it fair that those who had not collected pinks or reds could not use these BSA's right away? Plus those breeds were probably harder to get all at once...

And is it fair that a starting player can't use those before he has caught one of those breeds first? No newbie will ever be able to incubate of influence the first egg he catches, even if it is a pink or a red. I've never seen anyone complain about that.

 

This game isn't about instant gratification, there's a lot of waiting involved already, and I really would like to see ascension as something long-term to strive for, when other goals have been reached.

 

Here's my suggestion:

 

Not only should the ascension action not apply to holiday dragons, paper, cheese, dino, and so on, but perhaps it isn't necessary for metallics and trios and other sought-after dragons like nebulas, electrics, reds, pinks, and blacks. Having it for them is OK, but for ascension to be a way of re-kindling interest in common dragons would be useful.

 

The ascension action should become available at some random time for each dragon, and the time might also vary by breed. Typically, the ascension action would become available sometime between one week to one year after the dragon became an adult.

 

Time that passed before the ascension feature was introduced would count at 1/2 or 1/3 as much as time after the feature was introduced. The fact that some dragons can ascend after only a week, and prior time counts at a reduced rate would help newer players to feel more included.

 

To me, this would really make things way too complicated (also for coding, I assume), and as stated above I don't see why long-time players shouldn't be able to attempt ascension right away.

 

I do agree ascension is more desirable for the breeds that are less popular now, but I would really love to see as many breeds as possible get an ascended form. I wouldn't even mind it for holidays and such, but I can see where that could cause drama that may be avoided (although, maybe those who would like it could cause drama because they don't get it because of possible drama? ) I think it would be best to have the decisions about which breeds will ascend and which won't be made by the artists involved.

 

And I agree with Olympe that there's no point in forcing you to have another dragon of that breed. Ascension 'feels' like an individual evolution, where no other dragons are involved.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Fengari

[Fuzzbucket]

*giggles*

 

I have a friend who has just joined. Last night he caught his very first four eggs. Every hour or so he asks what he is supposed to do now. He is perfectly happy waiting; he's new; it's all new, it's exciting for him. (He just keeps asking in case he messes up !) He will be totally happy to have to wait for other stuff. The newness is keeping him riveted.

 

THAT is what new players have. That is what older players are looking for - something new to do. Why should they have to wait any longer ? My mate didn't have to wait 6 months after signing up to get an egg (in fact he caught one egg and was then afraid to catch any more... !!! SO sweet !)

 

But for the excitement - a bit of limiting is good, IMHO - just like not being able to catch dozens of eggs at once !

[Fengari]

(in fact he caught one egg and was then afraid to catch any more... !!! SO sweet !)

Been there, done that

I knew I had to get it enough views to grow, and I hadn't discovered fansites yet, so I didn't want to grab more until I was sure I could successfully raise it. Wouldn't want to have a bunch of pixels dying on me, y'know?

 

But yeah, that is exactly what I mean: when you start out, just raising an egg to adulthood is exciting. Later on that gets more boring, once you know how to do it right and never have trouble with it anymore, but then there's the excitement of trying to grab a breed you don't have already, and later on going for nice lineages...

It is a good thing that new players discover different parts of the game as they progress, and that there are new things to get excited about later on. Like I was excited when I finally had a full trio, so I could start summoning, even though I already knew how low the chances of success are there.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Fengari

[quadibloc]

THAT is what new players have. That is what older players are looking for - something new to do.

Yes, that makes sense, and I agree with that.

[KageSora]

And, yet, some fairness to new players would be nice too.

Well, why not just give every single new player a few free adult golds (CB, of course), a few free adult silvers (again, CB, of course!) and while we're at it, a pair of CB holidays for every holiday they've missed--they can choose if they want a hatchling or an adult, too! Oh, they should get some free adult reds and pinks so they can incubate and influence right away, of course. And we should give 'em a free set of Trios (CB, naturally!), too, so they can start summoning right away! Hey, let's give 'em badges for events they missed, too, because it's just not fair that maybe they weren't signed up or signed in on 4th of July last year. Oh, and naturally we need to give them some free bright pinks and frills--I mean, it's most certainly not fair that older players have them and newer players will never be able to get them. That's just not fair, and a game being unfair to anybody is wrong. /sarcasm

 

Here's my suggestion:

 

Not only should the ascension action not apply to holiday dragons, paper, cheese, dino,

I can agree with you on that--dinos aren't dragons and thus should not get the ascenion ritual, holidays we have that 2-only limit and unless that gets altered they shouldn't be considered for ascension, and paper/cheese aren't real dragons just animated objects so it makes sense that they'd not be able to ascend.

 

and so on, but perhaps it isn't necessary for metallics and trios and other sought-after dragons like nebulas, electrics, reds, pinks, and blacks.

I don't see why metallics shouldn't be allowed to ascend, or other desired dragons. What's desired changes up a bit from time to time. While I agree that it would be nice to give some incentive to grab some less-popular dragons, I don't agree with more desired ones being barred from ascension simply because they're desirable.

 

 

 

The ascension action should become available at some random time for each dragon, and the time might also vary by breed. Typically, the ascension action would become available sometime between one week to one year after the dragon became an adult.

Why random? What is the point in that? And no way would that large a gap be a good idea even if random was a good idea, which I don't think it is. A week is far too short, and while I don't mind a wait of a year 6 months has been the more agreed-upon compromise between a short wait and a long wait and I think it's a good idea. As has been said, this is a waiting game not an instant gratification game.

 

Time that passed before the ascension feature was introduced would count at 1/2 or 1/3 as much as time after the feature was introduced. The fact that some dragons can ascend after only a week, and prior time counts at a reduced rate would help newer players to feel more included.

I don't get why the time that has passed prior to this should count as anything less than full. It makes no sense. Now, if it was easiest to just reset everybody's time-counter to zero from a coding perspective, I could understand that. But I personally don't get why time that's passed prior to the feature being implemented should simply not count completely.

 

However, either ascension should have a low success rate, or, if it succeeds at a rate of 50% or greater, it would be reasonable if a dragon could only try to ascend once.

 

WHY? We don't want a low success rate--look at Summon. People hate Summon because they can try for a year and still not get a GoN. A high success rate means no Summon-like frustration but not a guarantee of getting it first try. And Why would it be "reasonable" if it was a one-shot thing? It's not like failing to ascend is going to cripple the dragon in a way that means it will never be able to try to ascend ever again. That's just... I cannot possibly support a "You fail, well, you're screwed with that dragon!" thing. It's just... Doesn't make sense.

[Su_Halcon]

I hear the first time of this and I like the idea, since it is still you yourself deciding if you want to do it or not, and also you probably wouldn't do it to all dragons, but a few. I voted "no failure rate" cus I am one of those being deeply frustrated by still no success with a GoN. I think we have enough frustrating themes with catching the eggs we want, so why add another? I play for fun and not frustration ^^

[calankh]

Well, calankh, you don't have to Ascend any of your dragons if you don't want to. And if you mean lineage projects as in lineages that contain dragons you don't own, well that's not your concern. If you don't own the dragon, you have no claim to it and wanting to keep a pretty lineage doesn't really matter. That's why we have the whole "no begging for abandoned eggs to be returned" rule... Once a dragon is off your scroll, you aren't allowed to try to influence what happens to it.

I was unclear in my description of my concerns.

 

I don't care what happens to my dragon's offspring. I do care what happens to my dragons' ancestors. If I've gotten dragons from others, or found them in the AP, I've kept them because of their lineage. If that lineage changes, I may no longer want them. But given the timespans involved in this, I could be building a lineage around something for 6 months to a year before the person decides to change their dragon and ruin my lineage.

 

And you may say that I should build everything from CBs if I care about lineages, and yes there is a chance of lineages being screwed up by deaths now. But this would be a much greater chance, and there are many lineages that can't be done without others' dragons (for example, anything involving a holiday dragon). While it may not be a huge deal to others, it was my first concern upon reading this thread and I felt it needed to be voiced.

Edited April 4, 2011 by calankh

[olympe]

(in fact he caught one egg and was then afraid to catch any more... !!! SO sweet !)

I did that, too.

 

I don't get why the time that has passed prior to this should count as anything less than full. It makes no sense. Now, if it was easiest to just reset everybody's time-counter to zero from a coding perspective, I could understand that. But I personally don't get why time that's passed prior to the feature being implemented should simply not count completely.

I don't think it'll be too hard to code. After all, somewhere the site has stored all kinds of information on our dragons, among them the day they grew up. So what's stopping TJ from coding it so that the current date is compared to the date the dragon grew up, and if it's 6 months later (as in 6 months on the calendar), the dragon can ascend if it has an ascended sprite ready?

 

The ascension action should become available at some random time for each dragon, and the time might also vary by breed. Typically, the ascension action would become available sometime between one week to one year after the dragon became an adult.

Good grief! Absolutely not! I don't want to check my dragons every day to see if they're finally able to ascend! And I don't want to have even more bad luck because all my (younger) dragons decide they need a little longer than average, as it was with my dragons hatching and/or growing up when the times were still random.

Edited April 4, 2011 by olympe

[seranata]

Well, calankh, you don't have to Ascend any of your dragons if you don't want to. And if you mean lineage projects as in lineages that contain dragons you don't own, well that's not your concern. If you don't own the dragon, you have no claim to it and wanting to keep a pretty lineage doesn't really matter. That's why we have the whole "no begging for abandoned eggs to be returned" rule... Once a dragon is off your scroll, you aren't allowed to try to influence what happens to it.

After reading this post, I just had to reply...

 

This "If you don't own the dragon, you have no claim to it and wanting to keep a pretty lineage doesn't really matter." is totally missing a big point of how many people play this game. Most of my breeding is done with what the lineage will look in mind (sometimes I mess up but most is). The dragons I keep, I keep because I like the lineages as they are. To say, it just doesn't matter, is self serving and spitefull to others. Lots of people don't look at lineages, fine, but for those that do it is a very valid point.

Edited April 4, 2011 by seranata

[Obscure_Trash]

Yes, many people play around lineages these days. However, that doesn't stop the fact that any dragons not on their scroll aren't under their power and they have no say in what happens to them. People aren't just going to go around ascending to ruin your lineage, but because they want to ascend their dragon. Which is fully within their rights. :3

[calankh]

Yes, many people play around lineages these days. However, that doesn't stop the fact that any dragons not on their scroll aren't under their power and they have no say in what happens to them. People aren't just going to go around ascending to ruin your lineage, but because they want to ascend their dragon. Which is fully within their rights. :3

of course it's within their rights. I just hope people like AP block, then.

[Germelia]

Yes, many people play around lineages these days. However, that doesn't stop the fact that any dragons not on their scroll aren't under their power and they have no say in what happens to them. People aren't just going to go around ascending to ruin your lineage, but because they want to ascend their dragon. Which is fully within their rights. :3

That is a valid point, but for people who place great value in lineages (like me) it is a reason to not support the concept of ascension, which I believe is a fair argument.

[Kila]

of course it's within their rights. I just hope people like AP block, then.

Many of the Ascended sprite are beautiful. You also can't assume the AP will clog up just because people have ascended their dragon. It's a "sky's about to fall" argument that doesn't hold water.

[Obscure_Trash]

of course it's within their rights. I just hope people like AP block, then.

Why exactly would this cause AP block? If dragons ascend and people no longer like that lineage it's more likely to cause an influx of dragons to the wilderness than the AP. o-o Just like there are plenty of people who don't like inbreeding, there are those who specifically pick up inbred dragons. I'm sure the same would go for this. :3

 

That is a valid point, but for people who place great value in lineages (like me) it is a reason to not support the concept of ascension, which I believe is a fair argument.

 

Ah, my apologies. I was under the assumption it was an argument for not being able to ascend dragons with progenies or lineages or such, not an argument against ascending itself. :3

[calankh]

it was an angry off the cuff remark intended to illustrate that I would have no use for getting dragons from the AP if their lineages could change at random. I do not like the idea that all the work I've put into lineages could disappear.

 

Would it be possible to allow for dragons to breed ascended (or possibly call it something different) sprites after a certain age? rather than the parent themselves changing? Something that was visible in egg form, so you'd know immediately if you got what you were looking for.

 

I just really really dislike the changing of sprites. I know to some degree it's inevitable, but something like this would completely invalidate the way I play the game, whereas complete sprite revamps at least leave lineages the same. There's no way I could ask friends not to ascend dragons. So if I wanted to build a lineage I'd have to do it on my own, which is doable, but a lot less fun. It would remove a good part of the social aspect of DC for me.

Edited April 4, 2011 by calankh

[Rhynn Collins]

But... why does it change the lineage? It's still the same dragons, same breed, everything, the sprite is just different. Maybe this is just me not caring enough about lineages, so please help me understand

 

 

[calankh]

sure! take this lineage for example: http://dragcave.net/lineage/RUCm

 

I made it with the help of several friends, you can see that I only own 3 of the CB pairs (the ones with Cala's in the name). If someone who gave me an offspring ascended their dragon, the sprite would change, and the checkerboard pattern would be ruined. That's the sort of thing I'm concerned about.

[GUYUGKUYG]

I have two arguments against this.

 

1. Many lineages, such as the checkerboard one in the above post would be ruined.

 

2. How long would it take to even make the sprites of the ascended dragons??? The current completed requests would go in complete chaos as members begged their topics to be moved back into the requests section so they could make a new sprite for their dragons. Some spriters have quit too, so we would need replacements and they may not have the same styles as the originals.